Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 21 Apr 2016 20:26

Wait how do you have overhead trains with flyovers present and there ready isn't any room on either side

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Apr 2016 21:03

Why does it have to strictly keep the ORR alignment ? If there are no ingress and egress areas possible for stations close to ground level, then such an alignment will not work. Going underground for 30-40km will not be economical too.

disha · Post by **disha** » 21 Apr 2016 22:04

Christopher Sidor wrote:
And let us not forget the example of the fabled JR (Japanese Railways) which will probably never pay back the investment made into its High speed rail. We have case after case after case for this monumental failures of HSR. Yet we insist on going down the same path. Railways is best suited for moving goods and stuff from one place to another. Not for moving people. Let us exapand our airlines and our air sector. That will be more beneficial. Let us make air travel more affordable. Let us make Indians prosperous such that they take to air and not to trains.

Chris'ji., you are bringing in a orthogonal issue to justify your belief. You believe that HSR is a failure and go around looking for data that fits it. For example you do not bring in HSR from S. Korea.

Now regarding Japanese Railways itself., their HSR has been highly successful. And it *has* paid back more than the investment made into its HSR. Regarding the 'losses'., the operating losses for JR on its HSR arise from lines which do not have the density or the need to have HSR in first place. It is like running a HSR line from Jaisalmer to Longewala (total 125 KM., trip done in 30 mins).

Air travel cannot be affordable and cannot compete with the density of HSR. In a HSR with 16 coaches and each taking 1200 passengers an equivalent air flight will be (5) Five 737s. Further there will be no intermediate stops. And to transport 1,00,000 in 24 hours., you will need some 400 flights. Are you proposing daily 400 flights from Mumbai to Ahmedabad? Sipping Jet Fuel? With all the security nightmares associated with it? And India just does not have the technical and managerial capacity currently to build 400 Jet crafts for a point-to-point destination. And neither that will be cheap.

And of course sir, you never travelled on the Mumbai-Ahmedabad route. There are close to 65 trains plying daily from Mumbai to Ahmedabad - and all are full - choke a block. Daily.

Given that., the study mentioned and much discussed on Reddit - also makes several factual errors. It assumes that the cost of the ticket will be Rs. 1500 - 15 years after HSR comes into play AND the minimum number of one way trip is 50 (100 is a 2-way trip). Look at the number of trains currently plying (65) at full capacity and are you telling me that 50 one-way trips is waay too much at Rs. 750 - 15 years from now? The current garib rath tkt costs some Rs. 500/- and the night trains with 8-9 hrs of journey costs Rs. 300/- !!!

PS: All the garib rath travellers will scramble onto the HSR at Rs. 750 and cut their travelling distance from 8 hrs to 2 hrs! Joyfully.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Apr 2016 22:54

Christopher Sidor wrote:And let us not forget the example of the fabled JR (Japanese Railways) which will probably never pay back the investment made into its High speed rail. We have case after case after case for this monumental failures of HSR. Yet we insist on going down the same path. Railways is best suited for moving goods and stuff from one place to another. Not for moving people. Let us exapand our airlines and our air sector. That will be more beneficial. Let us make air travel more affordable. Let us make Indians prosperous such that they take to air and not to trains.

Railways are a public utility and a natural monopoly. A large number of intra-urban and inter-urban rail systems and even road systems arguably are 'useless' by the same barometer because they're not intrinsically profitable by themselves, and have to resort to non-operational means (e.g. advertising on bogies, leasing hub station space to commercial establishments) or even capital infusions from the exchequer to keep running.

What HSR does is increase efficiency of transport. In the process it increases aggregate economic activity. That growth in activity generates tax revenue that more than pays for any costs not covered by operational and non-operational revenues. In purely operational terms, one can quantify the amount of traffic that generates breakeven or profitable operational performance, and what additional traffic and revenue allows the debt load to be repaid comfortably as well.

Despite JNR going backrupt and being split into various JR entities today, you'd be hard pressed to find a single Japanese who asserts 'we should never have built Shinkansen', and if you did, there's be a dozen people within earshot disagreeing. On the contrary, it runs packed all year round, while maintaining extraordinary service and reliability levels. They realize it's not just an independent organization to be judged solely on its own independent operational basis.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Apr 2016 07:54

dorks in mayhem

India's New Bullet Train Will Travel Under Water
http://www.travelandleisure.com/travel- ... llet-train

removed inlined image

submerged corridor brings out artistic hyperopia!

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 22 Apr 2016 12:15

Suraj wrote:Despite JNR going backrupt and being split into various JR entities today, you'd be hard pressed to find a single Japanese who asserts 'we should never have built Shinkansen', and if you did, there's be a dozen people within earshot disagreeing. On the contrary, it runs packed all year round, while maintaining extraordinary service and reliability levels. They realize it's not just an independent organization to be judged solely on its own independent operational basis.

Not to mention, JR Tokai which runs the most profitable Tokyo-Osaka Tōkaidō Shinkansen is building a brand new Maglev Chūō Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka, entirely out of their pocket- no government funds sought for or offered.

In fact even during the JNR (Japan National railways; the government owned behemoth which built and operated the first Shinkansen lines and was privatised in 1987) era, Shinkansens had run well.

This is not to say all Shinkansen lines are profitable- the recently opened Hokkaido Shinkansen appears to be a disaster so far.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Apr 2016 20:10

It's too premature to write the obit of Hokkaido Shinkansen, since it only started service February 2016. However, Tokyo-Sapporo is already a major air bridge (among the top 5 busiest routes), and it's sufficiently far apart that train service is not necessarily better than air in terms of total time to travel downtown to downtown. Until the rail vs air market has found equilibrium, it's too early to say. Every passenger lost to rail will increase air service CASM and lower RASM, and progressively change the cost equilibrium. The service is also constrained by natural geography impacting maximum speed, including taking the 55km Seikan Tunnel under the ocean.

Mumbai-Ahmedabad on the other hand, is a Tokyo-Osaka like scenario - a heavily trafficked sector in its own right, with substantial through traffic potential to fund expansion beyond.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Apr 2016 20:48

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/high ... 48168.html

High-speed Talgo train coaches anchor at Mumbai port

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 23 Apr 2016 06:15

Suraj wrote:It's too premature to write the obit of Hokkaido Shinkansen, since it only started service February 2016.

That's true. However, the sharp decline in passengers almost immediately after the services started have been all too evident and there's no sign of pickup.

This is sharp contrast to the Hokuriku Shinkansen that opened last year. It's been a runaway success and once they figure out a way to go beyond Tsuruga, it'll be even more so.

Suraj wrote:However, Tokyo-Sapporo is already a major air bridge (among the top 5 busiest routes), and it's sufficiently far apart that train service is not necessarily better than air in terms of total time to travel downtown to downtown. Until the rail vs air market has found equilibrium, it's too early to say. Every passenger lost to rail will increase air service CASM and lower RASM, and progressively change the cost equilibrium. The service is also constrained by natural geography impacting maximum speed, including taking the 55km Seikan Tunnel under the ocean.

To be fair, the Hokkaido Shinkansen presently terminates at Hakodate. I reckon a more complete picture will emerge once the line is extended all the way to Sapporo/Asahikawa and perhaps beyond. It's not really useful for visitors to disembark at Hakodate and then take the express onwards to Sapporo.

Suraj wrote:Mumbai-Ahmedabad on the other hand, is a Tokyo-Osaka like scenario - a heavily trafficked sector in its own right, with substantial through traffic potential to fund expansion beyond.

Fully agree. A Delhi-Ahmedabad-Mumbai route will be the Indian analogue of Tokyo-Osaka-Hakata route.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 23 Apr 2016 08:15

a) there should be enough rich people ( strong economy) which will encourage people to take the HSR b) took the shiv gange express to varanasi...new style 3 tier a/c coaches with no fan...quite good looking...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2016 08:50

Karthik S wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/high ... 48168.html

High-speed Talgo train coaches anchor at Mumbai port

hopefully the customs guys do not sit on their thumbs on this and quickly clear the way for trials. and I hope IRFCA trooplets will be onsite for each trials with HD DSLRs from vantage points.

I still wonder though if the trials are successful how the IR can use a single vendor deal without accusations of favouritism and howls of protest by all the rest like bombardier, alstom, mitsubishi, china et al...well atleast the concept will be proven free of cost.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 23 Apr 2016 10:54

Bade wrote:Why does it have to strictly keep the ORR alignment ? If there are no ingress and egress areas possible for stations close to ground level, then such an alignment will not work.

The alternative is to acquire land and demolish properties either side of ORR or close to it. With the real estate prices being what they are, large percentage of total project cost will have to be spent on land acquisition and delays due to litigation. And don't even think of the chaos in ORR during construction.
If they had built metro along this line even a decade earlier, they could have built elevated corridors for cheap. But the DPR for phase 1 was submitted in 2002, based on surveys made even earlier. It didn't include of foresee growth in traffic on ORR corridors. Talk about time lag.

An underground line, though expensive, looks like a better option. There are no century old buildings over ORR to slow down TBMs boring underneath as is the case in Chickpet-Majestic route in Phase 1. Only time will tell.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2016 15:01

All they had to was keep addl land at orr construction time for extra lanes and metros
This is a feature in all highways and main roads in suburban delhi...they could easily create tens of miles of elevated tracks cheaply

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2016 15:02

Hopefully same mistake is not repeated in prr but it probably will as ppl will pooh pooh need for a 12 lane road , 6 lane service road and two metro lines.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Apr 2016 15:17

High speed Talgo trains coming to India

Talgo trains are capable of hitting a maximum speed of 200 km per hour but trials will only be conducted at the speed of 150-160 km per hour.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/high ... 49547.html

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Apr 2016 16:30

^^ Trial at 200 kmph is planned at Delhi-Mumbai corridor in June.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 23 Apr 2016 17:22

Gaatiman video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5LHOdB6T60

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 23 Apr 2016 18:33

Singha wrote:All they had to was keep addl land at orr construction time for extra lanes and metros
This is a feature in all highways and main roads in suburban delhi...they could easily create tens of miles of elevated tracks cheaply

Yes, they lacked foresight. Real estate prices weren't high when they started building ORR and few meters of additional space wouldn't have mattered much, then. Now they have built flyovers every few KM along the Sarjapur-Mahadevpura stretch which makes it impossible to build elevated metro lines, unless they decide to demolish flyovers, as they are planning to do near Jayadeva Institute

. One can only hope that if they choose to have an underground line in Phase 3, the TBMs won't be slowed down by pillars of flyovers above.

Hope they don't repeat mistakes whenever they start building PRR.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 23 Apr 2016 19:00

Kashi wrote:To be fair, the Hokkaido Shinkansen presently terminates at Hakodate. I reckon a more complete picture will emerge once the line is extended all the way to Sapporo/Asahikawa and perhaps beyond. It's not really useful for visitors to disembark at Hakodate and then take the express onwards to Sapporo.

I didn't know it didn't even connect Sapporo yet. In that case it's really premature to write off the Hokkaido Shinkansen. On the other hand, they seem to have prematurely decided just connecting Hakodate was worth it, with Sapporo still some years away from being connected. It's like building Mumbai-Delhi high speed rail from Mumbai upto Mathura and expecting it to be popular for BOM-DEL traffic despite requiring people to switch to Shatabdi or Rajdhani at Mathura.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Apr 2016 04:20

IN CONVERSATION TRANSFORMING INDIA’S RAIL NETWORK

With Suresh Prabhu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srfihA6ERvE

Part of the same programme where the Tête–à–tête with Piyush Goyal was featured

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Apr 2016 05:04

Supratik wrote:Gaatiman video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5LHOdB6T60

Scary to see so many people having pedestrian access to the tracks.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Apr 2016 07:17

Slab Track System: Future railway track for India`s high speed rail

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Apr 2016 07:29

People's Daily,China Verified account
‏@PDChina
#China proposes to build world's 2nd longest high-speed rail line in #India, vice general engineer of the CRC said.

3:19 PM - 24 Apr 2016

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 25 Apr 2016 09:05

time is money, no? so time saved for passengers by fast trains have to contribute to economy, no?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Apr 2016 07:33

say I reduce my train travel time by 3 hours, and I get stuck in a traffic jam for 2 hours. bengaluru is a nightmare!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 08:37

if the avg running speed improves to 150k via talgoization type plays, the need for many short night trains like say delhi-dehradun, chennai-blr (two leave close together around 10pm) will go away and day train chair cars and garib rath types with running times upto 10 hrs be more common......10 hrs could be 1000km - chennai to bhubaneswar in a day from dawn to dusk with halt in vijaywada and vizag. 80% of use cases can be covered by such trains.

the real ER trains like jammu to trivandrum or assam to west coast points will still be there, but journey times will be half ... 30 hrs instead of 60 hrs which apart from less tiring will also reduce load on pantry cars, caterers, cleaners...shorter the journey cleaner the train.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Apr 2016 10:02

150km/h average speed would be a very fast train. Even the fastest Nozomi service on the Tokaido Shinkansen line between Tokyo and Osaka runs at 205km/h average speed (515kms, 2.5hrs), though it tops out at 275km/h and runs at that speed for over an hour between Yokohama and Nagoya. The Nozomi service has 2 stops outside of Tokyo-Yokohama agglomeration - Nagoya and Kyoto - before Osaka. Within Tokyo it stops at Shinagawa and Yokohama, and just crawls along until then. It doesn't pick up speed until it departs Yokohoma and then you see it rapidly accelerate to 275km/h and blow past Mount Fuji. The Shinkansen accelerates at 2.7km/h/s .

Currently, the fastest train in India, the Bhopal Shatabdi, has an average speed of 90km/h, with a peak speed of 160km/h. It has 7 stops between New Delhi and Bhopal. The WAP-7 locomotive used has a maximum acceleration of approximately 0.45km/h/sec .To increase average speed you need a combination of fewer stops and much greater acceleration. That requires a lot of things, from lighter coaches, to better signaling and more.

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 27 Apr 2016 10:30

Singha wrote: the real ER trains like jammu to trivandrum or assam to west coast points will still be there, but journey times will be half ... 30 hrs instead of 60 hrs which apart from less tiring will also reduce load on pantry cars, caterers, cleaners...shorter the journey cleaner the train.

A properly rationalized hub-and-spoke system similar to airlines could eliminate some of the "national integration" long distance trains such as Trivandrum to Jammu. Disembarking and changing trains in, say,, Delhi won't be such an inconvenience for the rare soul who wants to go point-to-point.

Basically, try and eliminate all trains that take more than 24 hours at Talgo speeds. Chances are those are milk runs and are not really serving an O&D market.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Apr 2016 11:11

SSundar wrote:A properly rationalized hub-and-spoke system similar to airlines could eliminate some of the "national integration" long distance trains such as Trivandrum to Jammu. Disembarking and changing trains in, say,, Delhi won't be such an inconvenience for the rare soul who wants to go point-to-point.

Basically, try and eliminate all trains that take more than 24 hours at Talgo speeds. Chances are those are milk runs and are not really serving an O&D market.

That would work only if the railway system worked like the airlines. Where the baggage can be checked in till the eventual destination and the folks merely have to transfer from one train to the other.

Now imagine a family of 4-5 with sizeable baggage, travelling long distance, who would have to get off the train at a nodal junction, haul their luggage all the way to the next platform to board the train for their onward journey, traversing steep flights of stairs along the way (or pay through the nose for a porter). If there's a gap in train timings, they'll have to find sufficient space in the waiting room, huddled around their luggage and pick it all up and board the train when it arrives.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 12:12

there is huge demand end to end pax for the NE to kerala/chennai/blr trains and likewise from bihar-UP to mumbai, hyd, blr, chn, triv.

all the economically failed regions of the kingdom have exported millions of people to successful places and hence the demand - students, blue collar, white collar at all levels.

these trains are there to stay and have been around since late 1980s

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 12:27

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 52543.html

Indian Railways also plan to begin work on three freight corridors, namely East West corridor, North South corridor and East Coast corridor. These new dedicated freight corridors (DFC) will ensure faster movement of goods besides taking the load off existing rail network. Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu has said that the average speed of superfast trains will be increased by up to 25 km per hour in the next three years. "Laying new tracks, replacing old ones and doubling and tripling of lines are essential to clearing the traffic bottlenecks. Traffic congestion also leads to delay in transportation of goods which is a major source of railways' earnings," said a senior Railway Ministry official.

While North-South DFC is being planned to connect Delhi to Chennai, East-West DFC will link Kharagpur with Mumbai and East Coast DFC will connect Kharagpur to Vijayawada.These three additional DFC will be funded through innovative financing mechanism including PPP. Railways have already done a feasibility study for these three corridors. Currently, work is going on Western and Eastern DFC. While Western corridor is being funded by Japan, the Eastern is World Bank funded. Both Western and Eastern corridors will be electrified routes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 12:29

VVV is this something XL? the distance is only 200km

Nitin Gadkari ‏@nitin_gadkari Apr 22
A long haul train carrying ~7200MT of coal was run between Talcher and Paradip @sureshpprabhu

Nitin Gadkari ‏@nitin_gadkari Apr 13
In Jal Marg Vikas project we are investing over $600 Million to make Ganga navigable from Varanasi to Haldia covering a distance of 1620Km

Nitin Gadkari ‏@nitin_gadkari Apr 13
The turnaround time in ports has reduced by 20% enabling customers to save over $200 Million (Rs.1300 Cr.)

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 27 Apr 2016 17:42

One small section of DFC is now undergoing trial runs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 19:11

Coal cant be as heavy as iron ore. If each wagon takes 75t thats a stretch imo. To be hauling 7200t means 100 such full caliber wagons were in it..probably 2 engines in back and 2 in front or just 3 in the front..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2016 19:33

108 wagons on this one

https://youtu.be/zET1sF-p1uU

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Apr 2016 20:47

@Ssundar a) What is the sepcific advantage of a hub/spoke model? i Dont think any country implements such a system on the rail n/w. no of passengers on a plane are much much smaller than what one finds on a indian train. b) if not all there should be some trains which atleast do 100 to 120 kmph and which run on time. that will be a big big plus IMHO on the existing tracks. it takes me freaking 6 to 6.5 hrs to reach Amritsar from delhi which is barely 440 km on even a shatabdi. The not so glamourous Saharsa Amritsar Garib Rath also takes almost the same time.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 27 Apr 2016 21:12

SSundar wrote:A properly rationalized hub-and-spoke system similar to airlines could eliminate some of the "national integration" long distance trains such as Trivandrum to Jammu.

What's the benefit of doing this so-called rationalization? Airlines are able to do it as they have a streamlined baggage and freight handling system with dedicated work areas. How will this work on trains, and what will the cost of such infra cost? Will that lead to eventual savings? And, as a passenger, why would I disembark at say, Itarsi, in the middle of the night to catch a connecting train a few hours later?

SSundar wrote:Disembarking and changing trains in, say,, Delhi won't be such an inconvenience for the rare soul who wants to go point-to-point.

These rare souls number 10 Million + per day!

SSundar wrote:Basically, try and eliminate all trains that take more than 24 hours at Talgo speeds. Chances are those are milk runs and are not really serving an O&D market.

Perhaps a journey on the daily running 24-coach Kerala express might show this 'milk run' for what it is...? You don't even need an end-to-end trip, just board from Ernakulam and travel up to Nagpur (that's 24+ hours already) to see the rush. Even with Talgo speeds, this train will perhaps take more than 24 hours end-end (3035km/120kmph average speed = 25 hours).

Let's not try to force fit models from alternate modes without understanding how and why Indians travel. And air travel is not a panacea for India, given the sheer volume of people.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Apr 2016 21:35

if u come to think of it..Delhi acts as a hub for N India...kolkatta also for E india.... chennai and mumbai for their respective areas.. the so called Railways junctions are the hubs...? where its written u can change here for X, Y and Z locations

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 27 Apr 2016 21:49

True, but here's an example of the problem. For a long time, till about 15 years ago, most of southern TN had a metre gauge network, while western TN, KL, most of AP and parts north had BG. So people travelling from Mumbai to Madurai, or Delhi to Rameswaram had to alight at Madras central, and transit to Madras Egmore to catch the MG connecting train to the destination. Needless to say, lot of trouble and hassle, and the only beneficiaries were Chennai's notorious auto-drivers who literally took folks for a ride. Whereas after project unigauge, most of the network is now BG, and there are many through trains now. It's possible to take the Thirukkural express from Delhi and go all the way to Madurai or Tirunelveli. Elderly folks could make their pilgrimage to Rameswaram more comfortably now. Passengers are definitely not complaining.

Point is, in the MG era, Madras was a hub, strictly speaking. The spokes radiated north and west in BG, and south in MG. People had to transit through the hub, and I am yet to meet a traveller who looked at that experience favourably. Now, SSundar saar is saying something similar, but passenger sentiment will be against such an idea for good reasons. Madras is still a hub in some sense where one can find connections as a backup if a direct option is not available, and this is true for most railway junctions throughout the country. But for the most part, it simply serves the traffic bound for the city itself, with direct trains the most preferred option.

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 28 Apr 2016 01:36

Hub-and-spoke allows more efficient use of capital assets (planes, train coaches, etc.) and allows for better frequency versus capacity tradeoff between origin and destination. The positive effect is much more pronounced in airlines because of the cost of air travel and the relative low capacity of planes. However, there will definitely be positive benefits in trains and road transport as well.

Trivandrum-Jammu is 67 hours on the current train with a zillion stations in between. That is almost 3 days in a train. Each intermediate station contributes so much to the travel time.

If IR were to do a Talgo train for Trivandrum-Delhi in 24 hours and another from Delhi-Jammu in 4-6 hours, it would more than halve the travel time between this city pair with the inconvenience of having to change trains at Delhi.

We would need to run real numbers in a financial model, but I would bet that IR will be deploying fewer coaches/locos in this route if they adopt the hub-and-spoke model and improve yields by deploying the right frequency-capacity between TVM-DEL and DEL-Jammu. So, real tangible financial benefits for IR.

Yes, there is the question of having to drag the luggage and spend time in the crowded waiting rooms - but those are solvable problems with just a little initiative. I am not advocating that we copy airlines ditto. I am not advocating dropping passengers off midnight in remote, unsafe stations either. Real hubs are 24-7 stations with a lot of frequent outbound connections and ample waiting spaces. This requires some good focus on developing stations as hubs.