Bharat Rakshak

It was an NDA govt., not BJP govt. BJP was way short of majority on its own in the parliament and was dependent on small regional parties which were loathe to have anything to do with UCC or Article 370 and kept warning BJP against doing anything for these. Most people forget this when cursing BJP for inaction.

A near miss at a personal level. GK blast on the base of the building shattered the drawing room windows of my cousin sister living in the upper floor.

Such terrorist blast increase my commitment to waking up the larger community to actively resist act of subtle or gross intitmidation by established Islam inspired social behavior.

Action is rewarding and fulfilling,
Talk is cheap and waste of time.

Like to quote Hindi poet Suryakant Tripathi 'Nirala' सूर्यकांत त्रिपाठी 'निराला':

"Sankranti Kal Ki Vela Hai, Kuch Kaam Karo, Kuch Kaam Karo"

Jai Hind.

Now we're talking! Much better than going bang-bang on the IMs! What we need is the honesty and courage to stand up to the offensive paras in the Khuran and confronting them on the same. In all probability, they will not like it. But they HAVE to listen and respect our concerns. Get them to introspect! Make them realise, that what is of concern in the Khuran has lead many youngsters into terrorist organisations with a feeling of satisfaction.

Just carpet bombing IM will only get them on the defensive (get sympathetic towards the jihadis) and the whole point of getting them into the mainstream India will be lost.

GuruNandan, thanks for those links and site. A good read to fill in the gaps in my understanding. Their mission statement for once reads like a pro active approach to tackling some issues headon. Might even send them off an email.

Then why does the infallible, nation loving party align itself with parties that don't let them follow what they preach? They are as much to blame for inaction as the 'M appeasing' Govt in power right now!

Rajaram said:

The elections of Dec 1984 were fought on this plank and RG won an unprecedented majority. However, the circumstances preceding that election were extraordinary. (This is not to say that this incident is ordinary.) This shows that if a clear and present danger were present, Indians will grant their government extraordinary powers to face it. Perhaps "a thousand minor cuts" rather than a major one is a well-thought out strategy of the perpetrators. A major one will galvanize the Indian public in such an effective way that the terrorists will suffer a major loss.

Because there aren't enough sensible voters willing to vote for a national party over their own narrow regional interests. The best thing is to punish the main regional parties by breaking up their states. It worked against Lalu in Bihar, and it worked against Mulayam and Mayawati in UP. The smallest holdouts can be mopped up later.

Harbans

can u tell me where to find this Islamic ideology other than in Muslims practising it ? Should we try to change their literature if yes then shouldnt again we confront /debate the authors and if we debate them , are you sure they will rationally hear out the views against wht's written in their book ?
Other than Turks ( tht too in minority and even in tht minority most of them females ) havent found in Muslims who are ready to even discuss leave alone debate the issues rising from Quran or its interpretation.

RG just got some landslide sympathy vote, and that's all. He was never strong on national security, and didn't have the background for it. J&K went to hell in a handbasket under him.

Sympathy vote alone wasn't it. There was a palpable feeling those days that India was taken over by terrorists and something had to be done to fix it.


This may be correct but this was found out after the fact, i.e., after he was elected and allowed to govern for a few years. The point under discussion was whether any election had been won on national security plank.

The Leftists and the Islamists work hand-in-hand. Their Red-Green Axis is like a tag-team wrestling duo. When one is under attack, then the other steps in.

Fortunately, the greedy Leftists have no unity amongst themselves, and are quick to stab each other in the back. It's better to first break their main spearheads in W.Bengal and Kerala, to cast them into the wilderness. Then as industrialization takes hold, with its wave of prosperity and upward mobility, the growing middle class can be rallied to push through Uniform Civil Code.

It woudn't have mattered as long as ABV was in control. BJP Govt would have done exactly the same even with 3/4 majority as long as ABV was to be the PM. Use the search word "windbag" on the folling link and read the relevant paras. Here are some samples.

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hibh/ch9.htm

Every mosque and imam in India must be required to openly, clearly and repeatedly announces during every Friday namaz that Islam accepts all faiths as equal and wants to live and let live in peace under a common civil code with a single law for all. This should be the minimum expectation from GoI and all Indians from all fellow Indians. If I understand correctly, many mosques and imams routinely call for the slaughter of non-Muslims (aka jihad) in an open display of intolerance and religious bigotry. This should become punishable by life in prison or the gallows because it is sedition and a call to mass murder. No amount of spin can alter that fact. It is OK to infiltrate all mosques in India as is common in UK and US. Make every Muslim culpable and responsible for the terrorists in their midst--it is their job to finger these killers and be answerable for them. They are as unfortunate to be in this situation as the rest of us, no more, no less.

Now we're talking! Much better than going bang-bang on the IMs! What we need is the honesty and courage to stand up to the offensive paras in the Khuran and confronting them on the same. In all probability, they will not like it. But they HAVE to listen and respect our concerns. Get them to introspect! Make them realise, that what is of concern in the Khuran has lead many youngsters into terrorist organisations with a feeling of satisfaction.

Just carpet bombing IM will only get them on the defensive (get sympathetic towards the jihadis) and the whole point of getting them into the mainstream India will be lost.

Murphy Ji i do advocate that. Unfortunately instinctive hatred takes over logic for most of our politician types in parties like BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal and Shiv Sena. When that happens people play into the hands of communalism. Look at Shiv Sena, they are a pin up for Islamic propaganda. Because Bal Thackeray, Raj Thackeray and ilk's antics are a mirror image of Islam. Yet you have encountered Bal Thackeray and Raj Thackerays forays against South Indians and North Indians the most hateful. These people supposedly represent Hindu's, yet act most against them. Yet they become pinups as examples for extremist muslim groups all throughout the world. Do they do any damage to Islam? None. Because they target Muslims or North Indians or South Indians equally. They do more damage to Hindu's than to anyone else. Am not in favor of such idiocy. The idiots cannot differentiate between attacking Islams ideology and attacking IMs. That makes them downright communal.

But even here in this august forum this approach is censored lest the feelings of a particular community be hurt.

But even here in this august forum this approach is censored lest the feelings of a particular community be hurt.

Sanjay Kumar Ji, maybe this forum does not censor so much, but yes mainstream media does. That threshhold is crossed when an innocent Rajdeep Sardesai or an idiot like Thapar are given the guts to question the Bukharis, top Mullahs openly in debates on mainstream TV about the Koran. I was implying that the Modi's and Thackerays instead investing their energies uselessly could make some statements that would justify and provide the necessary guts minus self sencorship to mainstream media to take up on the issue of what the Koran and Hadith really have in store for Kafirs. Thats only for starters though. And that is the ONLY way to curb terrorism. None other. Not even abrogation of Art 370, UCC etc. They will come after.

Muns,

Please spread the word. The best service we can do to our suffering nation is to help the people see the real cause of the problem without yielding to political correctness. India is under siege from the Dushta Chatustaya (four Gangsters) of Imperialistic Christianity, Islam, Communism and Secularism. Let us first enlighten ourselves and also enlighten others, even if it be one person at a time. When there is a critical mass of people who think and see the problem clearly for what it is, they would become a force for change. It is the duty of every Hindu to educate oneself about the above mentioned destructive ideologies.

Also see a video of Sadhus working to instill a sense of Nationalism. Islam is mentioned in the speech.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=I ... mb=0&aq=f#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfPIvW-abrk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATiKObM4 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AX0N04D ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UavuelYi ... re=related

Makes for some intense churning.

can u tell me where to find this Islamic ideology other than in Muslims practising it ? Should we try to change their literature if yes then shouldnt again we confront /debate the authors and if we debate them , are you sure they will rationally hear out the views against wht's written in their book ?
Other than Turks ( tht too in minority and even in tht minority most of them females ) havent found in Muslims who are ready to even discuss leave alone debate the issues rising from Quran or its interpretation.n

Satya Ji, every Muslim does not practise this ideology. Many Muslims indeed are better human beings than me and you and many on this forum. Don't attack ever the person. Same every German who was a member of the Nazi Party was not a bad bloke. But Nazism was a bad ideology for Jews, Gypsies and more.

Indeed a debate can commence. But right now the threshhold is fixed by Islamists desperate to avoid it. So Pranab Mukherjee is in his backfoot to give Taslima Nasreen shelter or not. Idea is not to remain on the backfoot. But if there is a Modi who is already under ZZZZZ category security or an Advani under ZZZZ category that makes a statement on Islams offensive ideology against infidels and Kafirs, it will give the front for mainstream media to debate on it. That debate firstly would include moderates who will outright claim Islam means peace and stuff. Then comes direct quotes from Koran justifying Terrosit behaviour that will make moderates squirm. Put up a Bukhari infront of a Javed Akhtar, Shabana type moderate with a Rajdeep Sardesai debate on TV. We've to get to that for impact.

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/ijtihad.htm

Further:

Every mosque and imam in India must be required to openly, clearly and repeatedly announces during every Friday namaz that Islam accepts all faiths as equal and wants to live and let live in peace under a common civil code with a single law for all.

Sorry Victor Ji, no Mosque, Imam, Mullah will EVER say that, except as Taqiya. You'll have a blood bath and riots possibly even before you ever accomplish that without wiping out terrorism. These solutions again come because you fail to understand core Islams motives. Without understanding that you can NEVER achieve or arrive at a solution. Try as hard as you will.

Core Islams motives are not with the Mullah, Imam or Mosque. They are in the Koran, Hadith, the Life that Mohammed led. That is where Infidels like us should be pointing our grubby fingers to..understand that.

Then the Prophet asked him what would he do if he couldn't find the appropriate solution or answer in the Quran. Jabal said that he would refer to the traditions of the Prophet. The Prophet again asked him what he would do if he couldn't find any answer or solution in the traditions. Jabal replied that he will use his own judgment which was approved by the Prophet.

Fine Ray Ji, but unfortunately the prescribed treatment for infidels is well laid out in the Koran and Hadith. Death, slaughter, mutilation, torture, decapitation or conversion or dhimmitude. So there is no reason to go further beyond the Koran and Hadith which will remaining guiding lights for the Ummah. All terrorist acts find enough sanction in the Hadith and Koran, including suicide bombings.

Thats the reason why Itjihad was abandoned in the 11th century. The formula in the Koran and Hadith worked well for infidels without the need for this concept. It works well today too.

A perfect example of a "strawman" nonsense attack, and validation of my usual good sense in having you on my "ignore" list. Unfortunately I saw this gem b4 logging in.

Where have I "limited my perceptions of nationalism to the BJP's track record" or any such other nonsense? Or do you just post these things without ever bothering to read? Like... "LET YOUR FINGERS DO YOUR THINKING"???

Adults are supposed to be more thoughtful and honest. Just a suggestion....

Some of you should spend some time in the yahoo groups IndianUnity. Try it folks, try it. Just take it up as a challenge. It will be illuminating.

The part about EXPOSING and DEMANDING DISAGREEMENT WITH the violent passages in the Koran is, yes, a required first step in cutting the cra* in the Indian "National Debate". People who blatantly declare intolerance based on religious belief, have no place in civilized society, and certainly not in a "secular" state based on mutual respect. So it is very clearly fair to ask:
and follow that up by asking what these communities are doing to undo their traditional message of intolerance.

The "what can I do? THEY will punish me if I criticize the Koran!" excuse must be rejected out of hand. If someone makes threats of violence, REPORT them to the police and INSIST on prosecution. If someone is using the mosque in some late-night meetings which are closed to most people, well, REPORT those to the authorities. That's where the decision making comes in:
Are you with India or with the terrorists?

These are harsh, but time IS running out. A "free" society does have to impose some discipline, and cannot afford to tolerate those who are blatantly out to destroy those freedoms. through violence. The consequences of head-in-the-sand are probably as terrible as the poster held up by the Pakistani woman on the "towels" thread.

SwamyG, I have. No further comment possible, sorree onlee. The Faithful were out with the knives, rope, lamppost etc. last I visited there...

And I was only trying to be friendly....

The part about EXPOSING and DEMANDING DISAGREEMENT WITH the violent passages in the Koran is, yes, a required first step in cutting the cra* in the Indian "National Debate". People who blatantly declare intolerance based on religious belief, have no place in civilized society, and certainly not in a "secular" state based on mutual respect. So it is very clearly fair to ask:

Are you with India or Islamic Terrorism?
and follow that up by asking what these communities are doing to undo their traditional message of intolerance.

The "what can I do? THEY will punish me if I criticize the Koran!" excuse must be rejected out of hand. If someone makes threats of violence, REPORT them to the police and INSIST on prosecution. If someone is using the mosque in some late-night meetings which are closed to most people, well, REPORT those to the authorities. That's where the decision making comes in:
Are you with India or with the terrorists?

These are harsh, but time IS running out. A "free" society does have to impose some discipline, and cannot afford to tolerate those who are blatantly out to destroy those freedoms. through violence. The consequences of head-in-the-sand are probably as terrible as the poster held up by the Pakistani woman on the "towels" thread.

Narayanan Ji that is a very good, heartfelt post. Want to bold almost every sentence you posted here.

Re: Article 370.
If memory serves right, we once had a long discussion on Article 370 here at BR and the final consensus was that its revocation was not a good idea. Did any one save that discussion?

What I see going wrong in attacking someone's holy book is that the followers of the book see the book as a revelation from god him/it/herself. If you attack them this way you give them the right to ridicule your religion.
"You think going round and round a temple 108 times will free you of sins, haha stupid people!"
"Wearing a turban and keeping beard makes them think they are god's chosen people. How stupid!"
"As if keeping a piece of cloth to cover their mouth won't make them eat microbes. Hypocrites!"
And so on...
I see time, education and constant denouncing of an all-powerful entity as the only long term solution.

What I see going wrong in attacking someone's holy book is that the followers of the book see the book as a revelation from god him/it/herself. If you attack them this way you give them the right to ridicule your religion.

Jaspreet Ji, i cannot help criticize Koran. It has ordained torture, mutilation, murder for me and fellow infidels. That is what is causing terrorism. Not because we have not abrogated Art 370, or formed the UCC..etc. Yes and i keep a damn lice filled beard, worship rats, snakes, elephants, hover around a pagan idol 1556 times. Yet by doing all those including worshipping my shoes and stinking socks all of which are in my doctrine, they don't compel me to take any lives of innocents. Islam does.

So i'm prepared to face any ridicule to my religion. But i have the right to question premises in other religions that ask it's followers to murder infidels like us for no reason other than we do not follow Islam. Till you don't understand that, we'll have no chance to get off the drawing board in tackling terror.

Harbans ji,
My point is not the fear of ridicule but trying to understand that a follower of the book will react violently and the approach will only backfire because he believes that the book was written on god's orders. Anytime you do that to any religion, its followers take up arms to protect their all-powerful deity.

I believe this is not true Harbans Ji, specially in US and UK mosques. They have been read the riot act and will spend the rest of their lives in jail (or gitmo) if they so much as f@rt in the wrong key. I am suggesting that we should do the same (read the riot act) if they preach sedition and mass murder. What the imams or mullahs will or will not do is speculation and immaterial. I am suggesting what we should do.

My point is not the fear of ridicule but trying to understand that a follower of the book will react violently and the approach will only backfire because he believes that the book was written on god's orders.

Jaspreet Ji, have spoken enough on this issue. But it won't happen. Will happen if all of a sudden MMS makes a statement to parliament that Koran is full of hate or something. More subtly the debate can start without violence. There are ways. We all know them. Many places Muslims are participating on these debates, but it is mostly on the internet edia, not mainstream. There is no other way to tackle terrorism other than this non violently.

I believe this is not true Harbans Ji, specially in US and UK mosques. They have been read the riot act and will spend the rest of their lives in jail (or gitmo) if they so much as f@rt in the wrong key

Oh no. Taqiya. Fact is just last week a Times reporter in a UK mosque secretly taped a Cleric in a mosque saying KILL KILL KILL infidels. That approach is not going to help curb terror one bit. Just sweeping the dirt under the carpet.

Forget Koran, how do the Security & Intelligence Forces go after SIMI? They are the political Brethren of SP.

If we cannot eliminate SIMI from within our Country, don't even start about "reforming" the Koran.

This has to be the weakest administration in India since 1947. I wonder what is going on in the minds of the ministers?

People are killed like Flies all over the country every couple of Months and the same BS from the Housewife President and UPA minions. When I first saw Rang De Basanti, I immediately felt it was a leftist inspired piece of cr*p (and the target was a "Saffron" minister). I am now beginning to understand how some people may feel the way the protagonists feel in the movie.

I suppose, the common Hindus folks have to arm themselves and avoid contact with Muslims. If there is a local muslim locality/presence in your area, it is going to hide/shelter bomb makers and terrorists (put it under community watch?). No other way to think about this. Either move to a city with no muslims (Chamba, Himachal Pradesh?) or prepare to seek God's blessings before stepping out for work everyday.

If you live in Delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore you are taking a risk just stepping out of your home (and not even that if your home is near or in a busy commercial area). It's like we live in goddam*n Medellin, Columbia.

Perhaps, the inaction in intentionally designed to polarize so that a unified polity may not emerge? I don't know, something's got to give, the pressure cooker will burst and a lot of people will get scalded.

Article 370 must be revoked, because it calls into question equality under the constitution of India. You cannot legislate inequality and then keep using stunts like crying "fascism" in order to cover up what you've done. Article 370 can't last, and it's only a matter of time until the fatigue and resentment against it build up, to have it wiped from the books.

Arun Ji
I am glad your sister is ok. Time is coming near when blast will be responded with blasts. I hold IK Gujral and other eunuchs responsible for this mayhem. It was him who ordered to dismantle our Intel setup in Pakistan. If RAW is listening, they have an obligation to this nation to do whatever needs to be done without consent of Hijra leadership of this nation.

Then the Prophet asked him what would he do if he couldn't find the appropriate solution or answer in the Quran. Jabal said that he would refer to the traditions of the Prophet. The Prophet again asked him what he would do if he couldn't find any answer or solution in the traditions. Jabal replied that he will use his own judgment which was approved by the Prophet.

To my Knowledge it was like this:

Then the Jabal asked him what would he do if he couldn't find the appropriate solution or answer in the Quran. Prophet said that he should refer to Hadiths. The Jabal again asked him what he would do if he couldn't find any answer or solution in the traditions. Prophet replied that he should do opposite of what Pagans do.

Narayananji you know it does not work that way in real life. You know the leftists, pseudo-secularists & morons jump and remind us how there are passages in some ancient text where lead was supposed to be poured when someone specific listens to vedas etc. You know people are going to point out Orissa riots immediately. Some are going to talk about some Bajrang Dal or VHP misdoings.
We at BRF might label such things and give names to such behavior. But it happens in real life you know. And aam aadmi are subjective to such influences.

You know I am saying the truth, you must have seen what happens in that Group.

Sorry for the delayed response. I had to attend to an emergency. Then, the forum was down briefly.
Anyway, I am not suggesting that I have all the answers. I am merely pointing out that there are no incentives or compulsions for IM to think differently in the current situation.

Now to your questions and my attempt at the answers:

Polity simply is an organized society, such as a nation, having a specific form of government. Governance relates to decisions that define expectations, grant power, or verify performance. It is not enough to have good policies and laws, but, they need to be enforced forcefully.

The radical adjustment I would like to see is (actually many of these are not radical at all, but, commonsensical and necessary for survival of the nation):

1. Every citizen of India will have equal rights and responsibilities. There will be uniform civil code. No group or region makes laws and the Indian constitution is the supreme law of the land.
2. Government would not promote or interfere with religion. Government would relinquish all responsibility to temples and other places of worship and they are left entirely to be governed by their own religious boards. Government would not subsidize any religious group/s.
3. Government would not recognize or promote castes or groups. All caste based reservations will be removed. Help can be accorded based on economic status, geography, family’s education or handicap.
4. All regions of the country are equal and the citizens are free to live wherever they choose. Section 370 will be removed.
5. The government will deal with terrorism in the most serious manner. POTA like laws are needed to handle such cases and death penalty usually awarded to the terrorists. Once the judicial appeals are exhausted the state would summarily put these terrorists to death. The president simply can decline clemency and the terrorist will be hanged. The president or the federal government cannot sit on the case, but, are compelled to act within a prescribed short time. Sedition is treated very seriously and severe punishment will await treasonous people.
6. Sedition is treated very seriously and severe punishment will await people who commit treason.
7. Government employees will be paid competitive salaries. Corruption will not be tolerated. Special courts will be established with lay elected judges/juries to preside over and judge graft cases locally.
8. Armed forces will be paid competitively. Proper honor and status will be accorded to the military personnel. Leadership structures for the three forces are strengthened.
9. There will be national ID or social security cards. All citizens must file income tax returns – whether they owe taxes to the state or not.
10. No illegal structures will be tolerated whether they are slums or businesses/rich folk encroaching on public property.
11. Strengthen IT department and improve tax collection and monitoring of disproportionate income.
12. There will be judicial affairs committee in the parliament that oversees the judges’ conduct.
13. Judiciary similarly is strengthened to keep a watch on the elected officials.
14. Strengthen central police organizations and accord them full powers to investigate, arrest and try the criminals in the court when federal laws are broken.
15. At the same time decentralize state police organizations. Let every town have their own elected police captain/Sheriff.
16. Make the administrative services (IAS, IPS, IFS, etc) powerful and make them independent of the governments. They should be seen as cream of the crop with strong sense of nationalism. Their allegiance essentially is to the constitution.
17. No bandhs are tolerated. People will have the right to demonstrate peacefully after obtaining proper clearances with the concerned cities and other agencies.
18. NGOs will have to register with the government. Their funding sources need to be documented and closely scrutinized.
19. Proper decorum is maintained in legislatures and the parliament with heavy sanctions and penalties for misbehavior. Criminals are not allowed to contest elections.
20. Border security is paramount for survival of the nation. Massive infrastructural and man power improvements will be undertaken in this regard.
21. Indian government will not allow other powers to interfere in her “near abroad”. India will assist Indian diaspora wherever they are.
22. Free markets and free trade are promoted.

In my view, the above defines “strong India” for everyone.
Yes, these can be achieved with the “monolithic majority” of normal, peace loving ordinary Indians.
Incentive is peace and tranquility and living to one’s full potential and achieving the dreams and aspirations for their kith and kin.
Disincentives are jail or worse if you violate the law.
Who will do this? Patriotic Indians.
Of course it is not easy. We need charismatic and vibrant leaders who can energize the people and who also can get financial support from all sections. At the very least someone ought to go to the people with such a plank.

I think it is time to propagate Sikhism to wider spectrum of soceity. Hindus need to be infused with warrior ideology. Probably Sikhism is the answer.
Avram.

Patil scores a 2 . He is aware of the blasts. He is aware that he is minister and whom he has o suck up to. Beyond that he is incapable of contributing meaningfully to India. But why pick on Patil? We have others in the cabinet with an equal degree of paralysis and dearth of ideas.

They all know that the Gandhi dynasty flame must be kept burning, but what to do for the nation is a complete mystery to them. Power is not given to competents and capable people. Power is given to sycophants and those who are close to the coterie.

Sadly a large proportion of Indians -who rate 0 in their "world knowledge score" also believe that leaders come in families and patronage. lineage and bloodline are more important that ability. They should really be educated about this - but when you have party in power that thrives on patronage, lineage and dynastic politics - the last thing they want is for people to think that ability exists outside families.

But why Congress. Look at the other parties. Husband-Wife minister teams are common. Mother-son and father-son minster or party head teams are common. There is an India belief in the power of Raja handing power to Rani or Rajkumar. And the Indian leaders who keep power in the family/coterie have no intention of making people think that ability and competence are important.

This really should go in the psyche thread but I don't really care - it hardly makes difference to our wounded nation where my opinions and thoughts go - they could well go in a dustbin.

A lot of people who are relatives of leaders get into politics simply because there is an opportunity whicm most others do not get. It is not limited to Bharat. I am not sure where GWB would have stood on his own merit if he wasn't the son of Bush Sr. back in 2000. Hillary Clinton's name also comes to mind. I am sure there are other names all over the world. What makes me sick is the pooja that common folks/partymen do of their leaders in Bharat. The dynasty Raj would have ended with Rajeev Gandhi if the other non-congress leaders had a common vision for the nation.