Bharat Rakshak

Friends,

The scene is eeringly familiar. An Indian city is attacked. The response from the country's leaders will probably, predictably be similar too! The CM of Maharashtra will blame the center for the lack of intel and the center will claim to have passed intel to the state. We've all seen the frustration of posters with the loss of innocent life and the lack of focussed response or retribution for these senseless attacks. The lack of retribution for these cowardly attacks has emboldened the attackers and spawned a generation of new terrorists (viz SIMI, IM etc.). These latest attacks are an attempt to strike at India's financial jugular. While we could speculate about the motives, what should be the appropriate response from the Indian establishment. With this desease now attacking India's economic underbelly, it is obvious that the status quo is unacceptable. With a defence budget in excess of $20 billion, the inability to respond invites more attacks and the label of a "soft state". What should the response to this attack be?

I would suggest that we not get distracted by Mr. Patil's clothes. However, Mr. Patil, as head of the anti-terrorism apparatus (being the Home Minister), is a shame and a liability. As a first step, he should be replaced by a more capable and dynamic leader.

This is a good thread. Kindly do not indulge in IB4TL .

My take is that the longer we keep ignoring the presence of that Big elephant in the room called Islam the worse it will get.

Asking for strategies for response or discuss about the current response? It might merge into other threads.

internal conflicts are more likely to occupy India than external ones.

so direct the increase in funding towards internal intelligence gathering. double or triple the number of intelligence agencies operating within the country.

To begin with, here's a worthy goal. Cut down the number of foreign funded madrassas and illegel migrants crawling in from pakistan and bangladesh.

Vikramaditya - so many lives have been lost to terrorism. Bright flames with so much potential have been doused before their time. It is a shame on us. When Pakistan says that solving Kashmir is the key to ending terror in the world, we should not run helter skelter but tackle them at their own game. India must raise her voice and confront the sources of this terror whether Afghanistan or Pak or hamlets inside India.

We must be ready to cut the hand that threatens to strike at our homeland. The sight that we saw of terrorists loose on Mumbai streets was a nightmare come true. This needs to be responded to.

Neshant that is a good suggestion. Islamic terrorism needs to be confronted head on. We must give up fake secularism and call a spade a spade.

What India needs is an effective strategy to ensure current and future homeland security. If this requires merging existing intel agencies or creating new ones, then this must be done.

hi Vikramaditya,

There are many Muslims in India who dont believe in such nonsense as Dar ul Islam and Dar ul Harb....they prefer Indian language over Arabic and in most cases they think like any other Hindu...they dont view all others as Kafirs or through the Islamic lenses....take for example Abdul Kalam....he probably knows the Vedas better than u or I. I have many friends who r Muslims and more patriotic than I am....they openly acknowledged to me that they were Hindus before converting and even praised Hinduism....as much as this religion dictates that converts shed away their past attachments, some converts only absorb the good things from the religion and discard the rest...As Subramanian Swamy says...if a Muslim acknowledges that they are descendents of Hindus and respect others then they r welcome to stay....if they say there are descendents of Babur or Ghauri and all else r kafirs then plz go to Pakistan.....


Now the question is how do we deal with these good secular Muslims who share love and regard to eveything Bharatiya....we should work closely with them to ensure they pass on their message to other Muslims and help cultivate a a degree of secularism in their thinking, not pseudo-secularism, but real secularism....if u say Secularism is anti-Islamic then please explain Kalam....Hindus do not mind the presence of Muslims in Bharat, but only when Muslims indulge in Jihadic activities do they lose their cool...We should work with these secular Muslims to ensure that any anti-national activity in their midst is immediately reported....there shud be a mix, no ill-treatment and no appeasement...the right secularism...not pseudo-secularism.....

Such things need a firm resolve and a uncomplicated uncompromising outlook to our nations interest. We as a nation are the most karmically inept ones and this permeates at a very very high level. Yatha praja thata raja as the saying goes. If mumbaikars dont take things in their hands and demand something this too shall come to pass just as the last 3 or 4 episodes.

The question is how to deal with the jihadis. Also, as our past experiences have shown to us, the violence of fundamentalist factions of a community generally subdues the voice of the moderates. The moderates come out in the open only once the fundamentalists are on the wane (i.e. neutralized).

Also, what is the correct strategy - to be attacked and then try to put the fires out or to get ahead of the terrorist.

IMO, From the geopolitical angle, India alligning with USA and Israel OPENLY would invite more terror attacks within India. That's exactly what US and Israel would want, to help themselves, as it distracts terrorist attention away from their nations.

Would the same hold true if tommorrow they turned from a minority into a majority?

The vast number of minorities who have disappeared from these states once the religious ratio was changed through invasion/conversion does not uphold your hypothesis.

Let us be clear that it is the elasticity and tolerance of Hinduism that maintains a largely peaceful and secular fabric of India despite all odds. If India was Iran or Saudi Arabia, all these folks would be dead.

While I would like to believe that to be true but the engineering mind in me trusts only facts and figures of which Iam sure you are well aware of yourself. The Kalams and Amir khans are a very very small minority (sadly) . Worse yet is that they have very little control or influence over the masses. Also this is not the first time we are going through this mess. This happened at a larger scale back in 1947. we are given the same politically correct reasonings back then too. But the truth is Jinnah won every single consituency that he contested in - especially Mumbai - with a overwhelming majority. And Jinnah was probably more western than I am. There is only so many times one can pretend things are all fine and dandy.

Strange might it sound but Madrassa educated muslims are not that dangerous and much a threat comparing to educated islamic fundamentalists. Most of the major terror attacks have been done by educated Muslims and moral support , shielding have been also done by Muslim educated elites .
Regarding President Kalam sir, he is considred almost a kaffir by Ulema ,secular educated muslim.

Nothing can be done at this stage and within the given framework. US has prevented attacks after one becuase it has been able to impose what will be called "draconian law" in India for surveillance - and Shivraj Patil the great will be followed by anyone who replaces him uttering exactly the same words that - in a democratic country you cannot do more - (what is US then not a democracy?). The only solution suggested is more sweetsops to be offered to "injured" Muslim sentiments in the similing hope that that will solve evrything.

It is a complete failure to understand the basic agenda of Islamic theology, and not necessarily that of the common Muslim but on the other hand not opposed actively by the common Muslim either because the madrassahs teach the original versions of the Arabic quran and the Hadiths which are very clear about violent Jihad to kill all adult males, loot land and property and ensalve females and children of non-Muslims as an injunction of Allah as revealed to the Prophet, that leads to these vacious political statements by the politicians.

Keeping the same state machinery, one way forward could be a complete and strict secularization of the nation - uniform civil code, no protection of any religion whatsoever, and a huge crackdown on all religious institutions of propaganda and not just on the "Hindu" ones as seems fashionable, and an active discouragement of the propagation and maintenance of any ideology that claims suprahuman authority and non-answerability to human authority.

Do I think the current crop of politicians can do it - no. On the long term, only solution is complete removal of Islam as a practised religion and integration of ex-Muslims as secular citizens into the national framework, removal of terror-ideology supporting networks of Islamic theologians in Pakistan and if needed dissolve Pakistan itself to do this. Will the current crop of political regime do this - no way, their existence depends on manipulation of fractures in Indian society and marginal vote "swingers".

Those who claim, that you can absorb the "good" from Islam and continue avoiding the "bad" is problematic. We have not seen large scale collaboration from the Muslim community in intelligence operations against Islamic terrorism - compared to the large number of "Hindus" who actively informed the British against mainly "Hindu" armed insurrectionists trying to overthrow the Raj. Those Muslims whom you think are patriotic and Indian - please ask them whether they think that Sunnah of the prophet as revealed in the Quran and the Shahi Hadith of Bukhari as regards Jihad (after the capture of Mecca and execution of both make and female enemies of the Prophet, including singing girls who apparently had mocked him earlier - there was no hijra, no further migration, all Muslim movements were henceforth declared to be Jihad) is a revelation by Allah and therefor however unpleasant, has to be carried out (as Sunnah and injunction of Allah) or not.

We have seen how apparently peaceful and tolerant Muslim communities in East Pakistan and Punjab became full-scale Jihadis overnight when the opportunity arose - for Jihad is very very tempting, if alive you get all sorts of worldly goodies and if dead you still get all sorts of wordly goodies. Sorry - I don't see any real awareness of the actual history of Islam's exapansion and the real processes by which it maintains its hegemony.

Neshant...let us suppose 30 out of 100 Muslims r "secular"m there is no way the thoughts of the 30% can impose themselves on those of the rest....while I dont deny that the majority are nt secular (think of non-Muslims as Kafir and Dhimmi) it would be wrong to say that all are of the same type. Unfortunately the influence of the Mullah and the price for apostates is so high that the 30% remain mute and have to toe the line of the majority...remember somewhere in the blood of all these people is Hindu blood, and as you said since Hinduism is so tolerant with a bit of "brain-washing" and proper tutoring from our side people can be changed. Its tough but its possible...

we can device strategies on how to deal with terrorism till the cows come home.
who will implement those ?
IOW, who will bell the cat ?

Hindus r partly to blame Vikram. Politicians for long fanned the Jihadi side of these people and appeased them to an extent where they think they are "royal Arabic blood" (the Arabs r faggots. hate 'em myself)....and the majority Yindoos constantly voted these same politicans back to power. And once the Muslims crossed the line then Hindus reacted in a round-house manner aka Godhra which had negative fallout for the Hindus. Hindus from day one shud have kept Muslims in their place, nt by humiliating or appeasing but just as a normal minority like say the Parsis or the Jews. Secularism, true secularism not pseudo-secularism. Constant monitoring, nipping of issue before it becomes big etc ensures they r in check....The lack of collective will amongst Hindus will one day lead to their becoming a minority until something is done fast....

When all who are suppose to fail then Indian Public will do it by itself. The explanation, sorrow, grief etc will come latter after the cat is belled. Its a sorry situation and PS crowd is responsible for this.

Brihaspati, just look at the jews...they have the teaching "dont worship false idols and worship only me"....Jews eventually did away with some of their most fundamental teachings which brew hate and today they r a refined religion....nt that they took it our of their religious books but just became tolerant .... today to a point where they r one of our best friends a ka Israel and India...u will still read a lot of instances of Jewish intolerance but that is nt the mainstream, probably a 2 % of the total jews??? unlike in Islam where it is a majority of intolerance...this is to add to my point that change is possible

I am nt saying all Muslims in India will absorb the good and leave the bad...heck no...that will never happen for sure

Guys, just wait a few more years, as and when TSP collapses and KSA is left high and dry with the emergence of Alternate fuels, there will be no one to fund high profile Jihadi activities and it will die a natural death...

Yogi_ji , the whole basis of a multicultural society is unconditional trust and mutual respect. It is clearly evident from Islams past record in India ( and you can choose to go as far back in time as you care in this aspect ) that this community simply does not subscribe to the bare minimum ethos required of a civilized society. Things like "live and let live" simply dont exist in their lexicon. Again this fact is chillingly borne out by facts and can be easily verified through their own holy text books. Almost every Hindu recognizes this aspect deep down to varying levels. He just wont say it out. When this is the state of affairs it becomes very difficult to co-exist as it requires constant vigilantism to keep these guys in check. Now the vigilantism is barely existant in Hindu society and 99% of the time they are left fighting the fake liberals. Again all this may sound defeatist and hopeless but that is the grim truth. The sooner we acknowledge this the better it will be. And on that note Iam going to hit the sack cant take this anymore... Cheers

I agree Vikram about the live and let live policy, but you will have to understand the basic thing about Abrahammic religions.....they are more of political movements than religions in that they prescribe teachings which ensures a steady expansion of the religion/political system. As a result the checks and balances for such religions should be clearly implemented in a secular state. Seperation of church and state was necessary because continued involvement if Church (Abrahammic) in state's affairs would have ensured that there would have been internal strife and no proper economy....hence no pleasures of life...no wonder West went for the separation....

The bottom line is without a firm approach (viz no appeasement by politicians) do not expect to co-exist with an idealogy which seeks to spread itself...be secular but be cautious of happenings in your state...thats what I prescribe...time for me to hit the bed as well...good night....

Vivek_A, Thanks for starting the thread and managing the angst.

ramana

ramana ji, this thread was started by vivek k.


prem the Indian Public is being fed opium to make it forget the reality.
it's almost matrix like in scope.
the public won't react unless it knows the truth. period.

we cannot just sit on our ar$e$ and hope that the issues will sort themselves out.
ever heard of the tale about the pond of milk ?

we might just end up like that. unless the Indian public awakens, all will be lost.
the window is fast closing upon us.

just have a look at the reporting of the mumbai attack, do you see any evidence of anger/anguish/resolve from anybody ??
this is where we have been brought to, even an attack of such audacity is 'acceptable' to the Indian public and therefore to the politicians.

we are on our knees, we just don't realise it because the back is still perpendicular to the ground.(somehow)
it won't stay in position for long. something will give....
I just hope it's not our spine.

Hello Vivek

Thanks for starting a very important thread. In my opinion, your question, 'What should the Indian response be?' can be looked at from two angles

1) What should be the response of the Indian Government?
2) What should be our response, as Indian citizens and Hindus?

I believe, that we (educated, english speaking, computer literate) are too small in number to influence (1) and our opinions are too amorphous to be translated into a concrete action plan for the GoI. Even if they were, the Government of India today is dominated by unethical people like Laloo Prasad, Man Mohan Singh and so on. They are incapable of taking any action..

Hence, our focus should be on (2). Hopefully, from our response as Hindus and Indians will arise a concrete approach and resolve for the Government of India.

Within (2), we can subdivide by our own roles in society.

2 a) What should our response be as Hindu and Indian NRIs?
2 b) What should our response be as Hindu and Indian technology professionals?
and so on..

Here are some of the response I came up with.
1) Donate more money to organizations that are willing and capable of providing a concrete response on the ground today, to jehadi activities.
2) I resolve to not be afraid of expressing my opinions about Islamism and Jehad in public and I will clearly let anyone I interact with know where I stand and where they should stand in dealing with such issues.
3) To counter the growing numbers of muslims in India, I resolve to support dalit parents who want to have more children, but do not have the means to support them.
4) I resolve to earn as much money as I can to support my causes.

Perhaps folks can add more to this list, and also come up with specifics for different roles that we have in society.

--

Adding one objective rather than a response. Make media folks of leftist persuasion like burkha dutt, sardesai etc. pay for their perfidy. How to do so?

Can we sue the GoI for inaction? Not in respect to preventing attacks but with respect to retaliating? They can indulge in all kinds of spin for inaction with preventing attacks but cant do the same with inaction in retaliating. Afterall the constitution binds the GoI to protect the interests of its citizens first.

The current leadership is not responsive and will not respond for these attacks. BTW, had it been some MPs dead, perhaps there may be some wake up, but I am sure they would press the snooze button again.

Give them a break.. what can you expect from them? If you want a change in the leadership, that is entirely different. But, responding to this event will have to be justified by GoI, else they might be chasing the wrong ends. Their INTEL is currently under a big worm hole!!.. POTA is all that opposition would ask..

and everyone will ignore calls to actively respond by bringing a holistic solution, that has a deeper focus on individual and citizenship, where each of the billion odd is mapped and databased. It can be a massive federated PARAM system. Bio metrics can be used.. for any visa issues and electronic tagging, perhaps part of a sticker on the VISA/passport itself that gives out the co-ordinates.. a simple RFID on the passport is a clean start.

If we can't track people, then we can't kill terrorism in a freedom loving country like India. IMPOSSIBLE.

One more thought comes to mind. Will this Govt do anything at all other then 'condemning' when Pakistan tries another Kargil or China grabs some more land brazenly? I see a complete lack of will somewhere/everywhere. Not one minister or neta in GoI really wants to act on it or has been outspoken about this. That is outright dangerous. Did we elect a bunch of traitors inadvertently? This is not a rant. I am wondering if our Intelligence failed to identify a bunch of traitors being trust upon us by vested interests.

Deepak Chopra was very forceful on CNN

From the Times of India

We can go about ranting and bitching about the state of affairs on online forums and the sewer scum we call politicians will give not give a rat's a$$ about it. Things are not going to change unless we get real patriots and jingos that care about the nation to join politics and bring about some real change. The goondas in power will not care about anything till the public beats them at their own game. We will talk about this on the blogs and forums for a few more days and go about our life. A moron called Fareed Zakaria is already talking about the resilience of Mumbai and open societies on Newsweek. Resilience, my a$$! Anyway, I don't expect anything more from a President, PM, HM and Defense Minister who look up to an Italian waitress and her son The Dunce for guidance. What a pathetic people we are! I think it's time for a revolution for the peoples of India to rise up against this mediocrity and do something about it. Just my 2 paise!

I think that a majority of our Politicians are Corrupt. They all are all over the world. They are more corrupt in poorer countries, and so are ours.

But I also think that a majority of them are patriotic. Just as we are. Sorry "Dhande ka asool hai, Paise ka mamla hai" everyone wants to be rich politicians are no exception.

The ones who are dangerous are those minority who are Antinationals.
Even more those who are honest and antinationals.

Whenever people talk about change and reform , Afzal guru's incident comes to my mind , when a honorable man like Kalam himself exhibited weakness at the last juncture what can one expect from the scumbags in the LS/RS ?

What is the chupleeme colt for when one individual can overrule the former's decision ?

The only measure which might actually stem the rot imo would be to impose a national emergency for a period of month or so , with services at the helm .During this period IA along with the CBI and IPS should carry out under cover ops to wipe out hurriyat, pseudo secularists and the entire commie brigade.. needless to say DDM should be gagged while all this happens.

Simple, just hold back water from Baglihar before the wheat growing season and watch the rats starve themselves out.

The terrorists brazeness is increasing with every attack. Just study the trend. What next?

Do our people singly and then collectively have a tipping point. Since, we are a democracy, we have to make our voice heard the democratic way.

It will take a super leader or a unified persistent voice of the people to lead us out of this terrorist mess. More and more Vallabhai Patel appears a giant.

Most importantly, the people have to care which is beyond being resilient which we are.

Too much piskology, I am afraid.

IMHO, I think the least we BRFites can do is to collate media coverage and expose the bias and seditious behavior of news anchors such as Barkha Dutt. The CNN and Zain Verjee, though not Indian, should get strong feedback for their blatantly false theorizing of the origins of this terror attack. I realize this post comes off as sterile and lame but focusing our anger in a productive manner will hopefully have the most impact. Disparaging leadership at this juncture wont help but let us make sure that this wrath surfaces after the crisis is over and the anti-national terrorist apologists come out of the woodwork to resume working against India.

I salute the Indian armed forces, Mumbai police and ATS and Mumbai firefighters for their bravery and sacrifice in defending Mumbai. Once again the Army (and Navy) comes to the rescue of a nation that does not fully appreciate their sacrifice. This incident, more than the countless others, has really kicked me into taking action in whatever little way that I can.

Vinay
Your post is not lame. The best we can do is to expose the scum for what they are. The moment people realise that that these 'noble' and 'righteous' journalists are actually on the payrolls of vested interests they will lose their credibility and be part of the same hated group as police and politicians are today.
A few dedicated people, a few secret cameras and a few websites to host the sting jobs will do the trick. This will be sensational and the same media houses will be rushing to grab some of the clips for their news shows. Use them against themselves.

Guys , it has been said before on this thread too. The media is the key to the reaching the public. When traitors like Dutt are there, it throws confusion and creates doubts in the minds of the public.

Vishnu Som must explain the stance on NDTV on this forum!!! And B.Dutt should be tried for treason!!

I think its time to correct Gujral doctrine , which did not benefit India at all, but caused more pains than ever in assymetrical fashion.

Let provide RAW unlimited financial, manpower and operational freedom, so that they should go out on mastermind, financiers, and local logisitcal chain and eleminate them (in Mossad style), and establish vast network in Bakistan, so that they could give fitting reply, which will be more odoriferous and x4-5 more bleeding.

Let's get focussed.We know where the masterminds hang out.Pakistan.The world's epicentre of terrorism.The leadership consists of Al Qaeda's leadership,the ISI,Taliban and various other motley jehadist groups not just from Pakistan/Kashmir,but also those Islamist outfits and fighters from the Islamic world who want to attack their perceived enemies in their own countries using Pak territory as a central base.

Therefore,the Pak govt. must be first taken to task,Cut off all diplomatic relations with Pak first.Zardari cannot handle the situ.Pak itself is reeling from its inability to deal with the Afghan taliban suffering huge casualties itself.Strike after gaining intel support at the masterminds and bases of such terror.Air and missile strikes.Organise if possible,like George Bush (Sr.) did an intarnational coalition of forces to take out Islamist forces in Pak.If they don't then we have to do the job alone,or perhaps along with Israel as the thought of these jehadists armed with nukes cannot be allowed at any cost,even at the cost of a pre-emptive nuclear strike at them by India.The time is fast approaching when we will have to take/make very,very hard decisions if India is to survive as a free successful democracy.During WW2,Nazism was pursued and destroyed utterly.The time has come for the world to destroy Islamist terror in similar manner.Unfortunately Dubya Bush by his silly war in Iraq has accelerated the cancer like growth of AlQ and its global sympathisers and supporters.