Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

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Yogi_G
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Yogi_G »

Ok so what happens if India does decide to do full-level mobilization on the borders and we do a eye-ball to eye-ball confrontiation with the Surma decorated eyes of the Porkis...?

the Americans would hate it if this were to happen, so who the heck cares? Here is what I feel, please comment,

1. Lets arm-twist Unkil, lets amass soldiers on the border...TSP withdraws soldiers from Western border to Eastern....Unkil begins to feel the heat in the Western borders and is FORCED to intervene.....we put it across to Unkil in catergorical terms that we will withdraw only if TSP takes concrete action on the terrorists, (in short they commit the transaction and cannot rollback, sorry typing this after 2 hours of coding :wink: )
2. Unkil then runs to Porkis and asks them to take concrete measures...TSP refuses saying it wont accept to bullying by India...very good...now as Unkil tries in vain to ensure TSP sends its soldiers back to Wester border to fights unkil's war the friendly neighbourhood Talibunnies in "Federally administered" provinces turn the heat on the Americans....
3. Karzai will again make quixotic statements on Afghanistan invading TSP to ensure there is no "cross-border" terrorism...a Porki feels really p!ssed to hear Afghan claims of military action on it...the long lull in the border after the initial excitement of mobilisation of borders (our Ummah boys taking on Kafirs, see all see all) will again insert Ungli in Porkis deep South and they will need some distraction....Unkil meanwhile sends in fighters, UAVs etc to increase bombings inside Pakistan, Porkis find new "news" and voice anger against Govt allowing Kafir UAVs to bomb inside Porki territory...More convoys burnt...
4. American attacks, Afghan threats, collapsing economy, international pressure will all lead to collapse of Govt of TSP. TSPA steps in, realizes it cannot sustain troop deployments in border is now more favourable to US approaches...asks for formula for troop withdrawal which will ensure saving of face and acceptable to Awaam...
5. Behind the doors TSP, Unkil and India agree on total destruction of Porki terror infrastructure inside TSP and covert financial help from Indians and US....

Limitations of the scenario:
1. Unkil may not be all that patient and insert Ungli to both India and TSP but India will be cool and prevail
2. International media may view India as aggressor, but our people can present line that all diplomacy has been tried and nothing worked out and we did pre-emptive mobilisation (remind me to copyright that term 8) )
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Mayura »

As far to my analysis:

-Nothing much has moved the porkis. For the first few weeks or so they were on the hot pot.
-Intelligently diverted the world's attention by starting to mobilize those "Chudidaar/salwaar kameez" soldiers.
-Mr 10% admitting that he has cancer!!! ( I donno does he know which part atleast)
-Now J&K results and all parties lobbying to rule the state.

Majority of them wants war with Porkis.But, b4 we do it we need to think how hard should we hit them. Coz war not only involves military but also other factors like economy,diplomacy..

We cannot afford to depend on Unkil for help..coz its not worthy to rely on them. They seek their comfort in giving/granting anything to anybody.So their major concern is now fighting Talibans.

I think this is a never ending headache for india. If at all we wanna remove that headace for once and for all we need to be prepared for the worst.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Vikram_S »

shiv wrote:I understand your angst, but what I would like to see is a situation in which every politician, no matter what party, has the basic sense of nationalism to ensure that national interest is not undermined in favor of regional or communal interest.

Your argument is that the voters should vote in such people. My argument is that any leader who is voted in should have the basic minimum sense of nationalism to avoid dilution of national interest.
.
agree.

all this GOI should have a mandate since 1990 is excuse for scam artists of UPA variety & people like MMS and his master who use such arguement to do nothing

MMS has enough mandate to protect india from terror attack--> instead he proposed siachen peace park, called pak victim of terror and did nothing when india burnt, not even taking any action against great HM shivraj patil.

SG and crown prince are anyways concerned about dynasty only, but MMS failed the public who expect leader to lead and protect not save his own skin to retain power.

and that is case of all indian leadership so far with occasional exception (PVNR, ABV, IG and LBS).

it is basically fault of entire indian system, not just public giving mandate or some such thing. entire system is infested with WKK who think pakistanis are brothers and dont care about thousands dead in punjab, in kashmir and many other state.

most of the time one party has been in power from 1947 till 1980 era - one party is responsible for 90% of indian mistakes in local and international arena from caste/religion votebanking to letting pakistan become more dangerous.

when india knew in 1970s that pak was making nuclear bomb it did not do anything (israel attacked osiraq). in 1984-85 india got to know pak had achieved nuclear bomb and another babu must have made new file and put signature.

even apart from utter lack of sight in congress party, whole system has also flopped.

basically indian system has failed india totally. this is effect of both indoctrination (undersestimating pakistan islam based hatred of india for sake of left inspired WKK idealogy) and incompetence (run after votebank and money not public/national interest).

even in 2008 india HM shivraj patil was supporting BD immigrations into india, congress has done same in delhi, has not distanced self from antulay remarks and is still doing votebanking.

this is not fault of public, this is sheer shameless behaviour from political class, especially so called grand old party, congress which is willing to do anything for sake of power.

what is worse is so called iron frame of babus will not also rise to occasion. NSA has not done job competently. and has been acting as UPA in between for political negotiation.

blaming public for almost total lack of nationalism and common sense in national leadership is without merit. when only crooks and incompetents are in politics using excuse of secularism then common public is fooled into voting for them.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Chandragupta »

It's a mistake to assume that the GoI is following the same strategy that Indira Gandhi used in 1971, because firstly, we do not have anyone at the helm who is even a quarter of what IG was, secondly, I don't quite think IG 'begged' states like Iran & Saudi Arabia to pressure Pakistan that the current government is doing.

It's one thing to be optimistic & another to be a realist. The GoI seems utterly confused to me, a reason why they're knocking on every door that they see to solve our problems. Ofcourse, they could be playing dead only to surprise Pakistan with a military offensive but a quick look at our Sardar Ji breaks any hope of any craftiness.
blaming public for almost total lack of nationalism and common sense in national leadership is without merit. when only crooks and incompetents are in politics using excuse of secularism then common public is fooled into voting for them.
Well, to be honest, the intelligen indian voter did vote Congress back in 3 states just after the Mumbai attacks. Mayawati will continue to command support from lower castes, dalits & whoever she included in her social engineering experiments. SP will get yadav & mullah votes, Congress will continue to get the votes of the secular, while BJP will be torn apart in every secular media instrument in the country. Bengal seems to be in love with the ******** of Chinese origins.

If Indians cared about the country so much, then they would'nt vote for such people. If people like Amar Singh, Mullah-I-Am Singh & Yechury are being voted into power in this country, then I guess we can't really complain about terrorist attacks.

Until & unless, the Indian voter thinks above caste & religion politics, this country will go on suffering forever. Do you think the lower castes in UP care about Delhi or Bombay blasts? Do you think Kerela & Bengal electorate cares? Caste, Religion, Regionalism will destroy this country. Wait, it already has.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by satya »

How Unprofessional We Can Be!
By B. Raman

On May 1, 1960, the Soviet security forces shot down a U-2 spy plane of the US intelligence, piloted by Francis Gary Powers, as it was flying stealthily across the Soviet Union from Peshawar to Helsinki. The pilot parachuted into Soviet territory, was captured alive by the Soviet intelligence and interrogated. The KGB, the Soviet intelligence agency, did not announce for seven days that he had been captured alive. They gave the impression that he was dead.

2. Presuming that he must have died, the administration of Dwight Eisenhower, the then US President, made a number of contradictory statements about its responsibility for violating the Soviet air space. Powers, during his interrogation, made a total confession of his role and of the previous US spy flights over Soviet territory. After the interrogation had been completed, the Soviet authorities announced that he had been captured alive and released details of his confession. The US Government was put in an embarrassing position and admitted that it had been sending spy flights over the Soviet Union.

3. On May 7, 1960, Nikita Khrushchev, the then Soviet Prime Minister, told the world: “I must tell you a secret. When I made my first report I deliberately did not say that the pilot was alive and well… and now just look how many silly things [the Americans] have said.” Not only was Powers still alive, but his plane was also more or less intact, including much of its spy equipment.

4. After the Mumbai blasts of March, 1993, Narasimha Rao, the then Prime Minister, issued strict instructions that no one should disclose details of the investigation to the media. Two groups were set up at New Delhi and Mumbai. They met every day to review the progress of the investigation and decide how much should be disclosed to the media and what should not be disclosed. Instructions were issued that except the Commissioner of Police of Mumbai, no other officer should talk to the media. Even he held a daily collective briefing of the media as a whole and avoided one-to-one briefings to any individual journalist. In August 1994---- 17 months after the blasts---- after the arrest of one of the key perpetrators, Shri K.Padmanabiah, the then Home Secretary, held a press conference at New Delhi to collectively brief the media on the role of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the explosions.

5. Since the US started its Operation Enduring Freedom against Al Qaeda and the Taliban on October 7, 2001, it has captured a number of senior operatives of Al Qaeda in Pakistani territory---Abu Zubaidah in Faislabad in Pakistani Punjab, Ramzi Binalshib in Karachi, Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) in Rawalpindi, Abu-Faraj al-Libi in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP), to cite some of them. It also captured Hambali of the Jemmah Islamiyah, with the help of the Thai authorities at Ayuthya in Thailand. All of them were taken to either Diego Garcia or Bagram in Afghanistan or the Guantanamo Bay detention centre in Cuba for interrogation.

6. Till now, the details of their interrogation have not been released to the media by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Only sanitized summaries were released to the media after they were indicted before a military tribunal. Mariam, the widow of Daniel Pearl, the US journalist, was reportedly briefed in confidence by the FBI about what KSM had stated about his role in the kidnapping and murder of her husband.

7. This is professionalism. When I joined the Intelligence Bureau (IB) in 1967, I was taught in the training institute about the importance of keeping secret the details of the statements made by suspects during their interrogation till the case reached the stage of prosecution. If the details came out in the media, that would benefit the terrorist organization to which the suspect belonged. If the terrorist act was sponsored by a State, it would be able to cover up its tracks.

8. In recent years, we have been seeing the disturbing and highly unprofessional practice of intelligence and police officers giving to the media even before the investigation is complete, the details of the statements being made by suspects during the interrogation. In fact, they even give to their journalistic contacts a virtual running commentary of the interrogation. They do not seem to realize the damage which they are causing to the fight against terrorism by doing so.

9. Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and other foreign intelligence agencies do not even have to develop sources in our intelligence agencies and the police for getting details of interrogation reports and the line of investigation being followed by the police and the intelligence agencies. They just have to identify such privileged journalists, closely follow their reports and, if need be, cultivate them.

10. This often creates ridiculous situations such as in the case of Mohammad Ajmal Amir Imam, the Pakistani member of the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), who is presently under interrogation by the Mumbai Police on his role in the terrorist attack by the LET in Mumbai on November 26-29, 2008. We have been rightly refusing to share the details of his interrogation with the Pakistani authorities on the ground that it will be premature to do so and that sharing the details at this stage with the Pakistani authorities might enable the LET and the ISI to cover up their tracks.

11. And here are the officers of the Mumbai Police and the intelligence community sharing all the details with some privileged journalists without realizing the damage to the investigation and our fight against terrorism that could be caused by almost daily disclosures. This could also damage our credibility and cast doubts about our professionalism.

12. What was the need for the investigating officers to tell the journalists about the place where the surviving LET terrorist was being detained and where he is going to be transferred next? Don’t they realise that such information would be useful to the LET and the ISI if they want to mount an operation to rescue or eliminate him? What was the need for the journalists to find out such sensitive details and disseminate them in the media? After the serial explosions in Ahmedabad in July, we saw some private TV channels giving details of the hospitals where the injured victims were being admitted. There was a vehicular bomb explosion in one of these hospitals.

13. As I have repeated many times before, it is important for the investigating officers to keep an open mind in the initial stages of the investigation and avoid coming out with categorical conclusions, which may be proved wrong by evidence collected subsequently. This is a rule of prudence to safeguard the credibility of the investigation process. Here we find everybody in Mumbai and Delhi coming out with categorical statements without the least doubts in their minds about the validity of their statements

14. The sequel to the Mumbai attack has been handled in an unprofessional manner not only by the Mumbai Police and the intelligence agencies, but also by the policy makers---political and professional--- of the Government of India. In our understandable anxiety to nail the State of Pakistan, we have been following a strategy, which lacks lucidity and coherence.

15. Our immediate objective should have been to prepare a well-written and well-collated dossier with evidence already collected, which do not require further independent corroboration and share it with other countries, particularly those whose nationals were killed by the terrorists. Among such pieces of evidence one could mention the intercepts of the IB and the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW) and the reports of the US intelligence in September about the plans of the LET to mount a sea-borne act of terrorism in Mumbai targeting some hotels, including the Taj Mahal hotel, the visuals from the closed circuit TV cameras installed in the railway station and the hotels, the reports carried by the “Observer” of the UK, the GeoTV and the “Dawn” of Pakistan identifying the surviving terrorist as a Pakistani national and usable extracts from the interrogation of the surviving terrorist which could be used in our diplomatic campaign without compromising the chances of a successful prosecution.

16. We should have also disseminated such a dossier to the Pakistani public and political leaders, who are well-disposed towards India. At the height of the Kargil conflict, the R&AW intercepted the telephone conversations of Gen.Pervez Musharraf, then on a visit to Beijing, with Lt.Gen.Mohammad Aziz, his Chief of the General Staff. The intercepted conversations showed that it was the Pakistan Army which had intruded into Indian territory and not the jihadis as claimed by the Army and that Musharraf had not kept Nawaz Sharif, his Prime Minister, and many other senior officers in the Army, the Air Force and the Navy in the picture about his operation to capture the Kargil heights. The Government of India not only released the transcripts of the conversations to the public and the international community in order to show the perfidy of Musharraf, but also shared them with selected Pakistani political leaders, including Nawaz Sharif himself, in order to make them realise what kind of an officer they had as the Chief of the Army Staff.

17. The Western countries and Israel have taken a serious note of the Mumbai attack and are doing their own independent investigation not because Indians were killed, but because their own nationals were killed----with the Jewish victims being subjected to inhuman brutality by the terrorists. They suspect that the targeting of nationals from countries----the US, the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Canada--- which are participating in the war against terrorism in Afghanistan indicates that it was possibly an Al Qaeda inspired operation, if not a joint operation by the LET and Al Qaeda. If these suspicions prove to be correct, this will show that the ISI has been using the LET as well as Al Qaeda against India. It would also show that while pretending to co-operate with the US against Al Qaeda in the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), the ISI has been using Al Qaeda elements against India. This is an aspect which has to be kept in view during the investigation instead of viewing the attack as a totally LET-mounted operation with the help of the ISI.

18. By now, we should have put on a specially created web site the personal particulars of suspects involved in the Mumbai attack and announced a cash reward of Rs. 50 million each, if not more, to anyone giving information which could lead to their arrest or elimination. A safe line of communication should have been indicated in the web site which could be used by the potential informers to get in touch with the right person in the investigation agencies.

19. The investigation into the Ahmedabad blasts of July and the Mumbai terrorist attack have brought out that the interrogation reports of some suspects arrested in February, 2008, contained possible clues to future terrorist strikes. These interrogation reports were not systematically followed up. It is likely that dozens of other interrogation reports lie unread, unanalyzed and unacted upon in the archives of the Police in different States. The Government should ask a group of serving officers to go through all interrogation reports of the last three years in order to see whether they too contained similar clues about the future.
milindc
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by milindc »

Don't worry... MMS, FM and all Congress chamchas can breath relief.
Pakistan will not attack India
samuel.chandra
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by samuel.chandra »

samuel, I guess it is inadvertent but you are crossing crossing a BRF redline here.
you may give a link but not anywhere outside election thread and then only if it has an article/piece/interview relevant to the discussion and you cannot make a pitch for a particular party.


please read through this :

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... un#p568447

the choice as of now is to discuss politics within these restrictions or not at all.

regards,
Rahul.
jrjrao
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by jrjrao »

Silly. From Jug Suraiya in the TOI:

Bombard Pakistan (with chai, biskoot, samosa and flowers)
What is needed is not a global shut-down on Pakistan but the exact reverse: facilitating an opening-up of the country in terms of informational input... Through diplomatic pow-wows at different levels; through exchange programmes of journalists, students, business people, religious leaders; through television and the internet; through meetings between the defence brass of the two countries, Pakistan needs an infusion of information to help cure it of its delusional disorder.
jrjrao
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by jrjrao »

KS in TOI:

Wake Up, Washington
In spite of the Indian government's cautious formulation that the Mumbai terrorist attacks were carried out by elements from Pakistan, it is becoming increasingly clear that... Pakistan is shielding the perpetrators of these attacks.
...
It appears that the American strategic establishment and its Indian interlocutors have not thought through these issues. Possibly, the Pakistani army has thought through them and decided to wreck the proposed US surge in Afghanistan by creating a major Indo-Pak crisis. The Mumbai terrorist attacks are a challenge not only to India but also to the US. Washington does not display adequate signs of having realised this.
Philip
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Philip »

B.Raman is spot on as usual.Aaprt from not revealing that the captured pig was alive and singing,we should've said that he had died of his wounds and flown him toi a sceret location in the capital,to be produced dramatically at a press conference,.As I said earlier what we on BR should do,produce a "dossier" on 26/11,still has not been done by the GOI.The most important ministry after the PM,DM,HM, is actually that of the Min.of Information.Hitler had the world's finest propaganda minister ever in Dr.Goebells,who was worth a million men in uniform at least.Goebells and his team used propaganda as never before,and was a clear winner in the propaganda stakes,even using the infamous Britisher,"Lord Haw Haw" to sow dissension within Britain.Nazi propaganda kept the German people's morale at the highest level even during the darkest days for Germany.His "total war" speech is perhaps the finest along with Churchill's "fight them on the beaches",of any to inspire a nation to fight on when victory seems impossible.The GOI similarly should've signled out its brightest and most elequent member of the cabinet as Min. for Information at this time of crisis. We had an excellent lady MEA diplomat/spokesman,Arundhati Ghosh,famous for her "not now not ever" speech on the CTBT at the UN.India have many Pakistanis who deplore the actions of their nation's military,well respected in the world media,who have challenged the Paki govt. version of events.Why we have not invited them and other pro-India members of the global media to India to examine the evidence of 26/11 is an absolute mystery.Our govt.and the MEA seems clueless and visionless,running around like "headless chickens".

This is where the GOI should've taken the opposition into confidence and together worked out India's strategy.Right now,it is merely making mrionette like knee jerk reactions to Pak's perfidy and Pak seems quite happy at having been let off the hook.Wait for the next terror attack,it is coming and we will see the same longwinded speeches form Pranabji and the PM again taking a vow of silence."We get the govt. we deserve".Com election time,we have the opportunity to redress the dereliction of duty.
Last edited by Philip on 29 Dec 2008 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by NRao »

jrjrao wrote:Silly. From Jug Suraiya in the TOI:

Bombard Pakistan (with chai, biskoot, samosa and flowers)
What is needed is not a global shut-down on Pakistan but the exact reverse: facilitating an opening-up of the country in terms of informational input... Through diplomatic pow-wows at different levels; through exchange programmes of journalists, students, business people, religious leaders; through television and the internet; through meetings between the defence brass of the two countries, Pakistan needs an infusion of information to help cure it of its delusional disorder.
Re-interpret the Koran?

Pakistanis are terminally ill - specially those that make decisions. Those in Pakistan that will be open to such infusions are a very small minority and unable to make decisions.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Prabu »

Now see the paki plans !
( Posting in full,as the URL doesnt seem to work ! )
[ulr=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Paki ... 905418.cms]Pak may create more Lahore-like incidents in coming days, fear officials[/url]

NEW DELHI: Last week's bomb blast in Lahore could have become a diplomatic incident if a little known Taliban group had not owned responsibility.

However, the incident has many security officials worried, because in the coming days and weeks, there could be other such "incidents" manufactured by the over-active Pakistani establishment to "blame" India.

The fear is that the process could go to the extreme of triggering bigger blasts at institutions and then describing them as "Indian surgical strikes" which could then "invite" Pakistani retaliation.

There is a general conclusion in India that the Pakistan army is spoiling for a fight. That has resulted in a lot of diversionary tactics including hoax calls, air force alerts and moving troops towards the Indian border, to leave the western border unattended.

The Lahore blast last week, which killed one person, prompted the Pakistani establishment to blame India, even saying that they had arrested an Indian. This could have had implications if it hadn't been for some Taliban group in Waziristan claiming responsibility.

Subsequently, India was concerned enough to issue a rare travel advisory to its citizens, asking them to get out of Pakistan forthwith to avoid being implicated in some strange event there.

Sources said the strategic reason for Pakistan army and jihadis trying to provoke a conflict with India is not far to see. It suits them if India reacts like it did in 2001-02 with Operation Parakram, the mass mobilisation exercise. The Pakistan army and the jihadis don't want security forces in the FATA and NWFP areas. This would give the Taliban a free hand to take positions in Afghanistan and make the resurgence of Taliban into a regime change game. Or at the very least, have their forces in position before new US president Barack Obama sends his 30,000-strong "surge" in Afghanistan by spring. In many ways, it would be the decisive war for Afghanistan.

But this is a dangerous strategy, analysts said, because the blowback on Pakistan could be equally huge. It could create the space for Pashtuns and Taliban to create a swathe of "Talibanistan" in the tribal areas.

The first signs of this is already being seen. Pakistani media is already apprehensive of the implications of the fall of Swat and Orakzai agencies to the Taliban this week. In Swat, the announcement to close girls schools by January 15 is being seen as the tipping point.

An editorial in The News said, "The notion that somehow the militants are our allies runs as a strong and deep current through elements of the army and intelligence services, the bureaucracy and the politicians themselves. There are powerful forces that provide tacit if not overt support to them, forces which would like to see the Taliban triumphant in the rest of Pakistan and not just Swat. The caliphate of Swat is becoming a reality before our eyes. Where next?"
QnA: Is Pakistan faking and simulating incidents of terror in order to shift the world's focus towards 'terrorism' in India?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by NRao »

The above ToI account was predicted, so, nothing new there.

I do hope that the PA moves more troops to their Eastern border. It will then compel the U.S to act more severely or face more U.S kids getting killed. With no border build up within India, PA/ISI have not much time to wake up and smell the wisky.

The issue - now - is IF the US has enough guts to invade FATA, etc.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by NRao »

As a FYI on the topic of "moving troops from A'stan border to that with India", the last reports mentioned a total of 20,000 troops moved by the PA. As an CNN analyst stated, that is a drop in the bucket. It does NOT amount to a serious move to degrade PA presence in the Tribal belt.

So, here is my thinking:

* PA is trying to conserve funds while attempting to generate more scare
* The illusion that PA has moved troops allows them to wind down operations - because the general belief is that there are not enough troops along the A'stan border. So, even though they have enough boots on the ground they will halt all ops against the Taliban
* They know that the world will intervene if Indo-Pak relations escalate too far. Now that it is not happening they are rolling in their own mess
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Dilbu »

MMS anti jinx rant: War with TSP no option onlee. TSP will conquer India. :(( :((
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Prabu »

Vivek K wrote:Dr. Shiv, the Indian public cannot escape the blame. It is very easy to sit in front of TVs or computers, blaming everything on the GOI. From 1990 the Indian Public has not given a strong mandate to the GOI. Can the Indian Public for once give GOI a mandate and no Jayalalithas or Mamta Bannerjees or Mayawatis! When people vote for parties like CPI, BSP, SP do they not deserve the government they vote!!

Before anything can happen, we need to vote in a government (of a single party) that will abrogate Article 370, divide Kashmir into the states of Kashmir, Jammu and Laddakh.
very well said !
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Rangudu »

CRamS wrote:Guys, my analysis:

Can anyone on BR, however jingoistic we are, with a straight face claim that TSP has not 'won' so far?

-snip-

Unkil I am sure has sensed this and hence driving a hard bargain with India to deliver if at all.
CRS,

TSPA's moves are always designed to "win" the tactical engagements. The only way you can say they have "won" the last few weeks is if you base "victory" on not being punished for the brazen Mumbai atrocity. By that token, TSPA has "won" 9/11 on the US.

In reality though, what was TSPA's goal? It was to free up space for the Talibunnies and escape from the US pressure to fight TSPA's own creations. That has not happened. Unkil is sending 30K more troops to Afghanistan and Obama has based his entire anti-terror credentials on "winning" Afghanistan. That is what scares TSPA the most. They know that they cannot escape the pincer that is coming. If they escalate the support to the Talibunnies, it will shred the last fig leaf of plausible deniability and will force Unkil's hand. If they act against the Baitullahs and Fazlullahs, then they face suicide attacks in "Defence Lahore" and Pindi.

On our part, the Indian elephant moves slowly but when it moves many things get crushed. There is talk of more Indian troops to Afghanistan. I saw a TSP TV program where one of the retired Generals looked shit scared at the prospect of Indian planes coming from the Northwest to bomb Mansehra and Balakote terror camps. Mumbai has eliminated most of the natural Desi inhibitions and restraint that afflict our babus.

None of this is remotely close to satisfactory in the face of TSPA's murderous binge on our soil and the thumbing of the nose. Where we can take some schadenfreude is with the so called "moderate" TSPians like Jihad Sethi and his brethren. The Talibunnies will demand their pound of flesh and suicide bomb their way into the pastimes of the RAPE "moderates" and India should cutoff their access to entertainment, art and culture. The fewer "moderates" there are in TSP the better for us because a Talibanized TSP will force the world to see TSP like we all see it - a country that cannot propagate its policies in any civilized manner and can only use Mumbai style rapist murderers to represent it.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by dada »

covert operations in pk seem to be the only practical course of action left as a response to paki terrorism

more than the LeT & other jamaat type organisations, we need to focus specifically on
1) targetted assasination of key ISI,pak army officers
2) random slaughter of the kins of pak army officers . A large majority of the children of senior paki officers are in western countries for their graduate/post graduate studies. target them
without mercy (collateral loss of life)

in all circumstances , we must never forget the fact that the defence forces are the prime movers in pk. all others are mere pawns in the game.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by negi »

dada wrote: 2) random slaughter of the kins of pak army officers . A large majority of the children of senior paki officers are in western countries for their graduate/post graduate studies. target them
without mercy (collateral loss of life
You might want to remove above comment , please think before you propagate such crap .
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Rangudu »

As angry as we feel about TSPA/ISI, random "slaughter" is both morally wrong and will achieve no deterrent purpose. We need to make the Generals feel the pain by humilating them and making their paranoia into reality. If they bomb our Kabul embassy by making up stories of 100 Indian consulates then let us open 100 consulates and do the things they accuse us of doing. So covert ops - yes but murdering kin - NO!
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Chandragupta »

negi wrote:
dada wrote: 2) random slaughter of the kins of pak army officers . A large majority of the children of senior paki officers are in western countries for their graduate/post graduate studies. target them
without mercy (collateral loss of life
You might want to remove above comment , please think before you propagate such crap .
That's not crap. Everything that can be done should be done to punish these pigs.
As angry as we feel about TSPA/ISI, random "slaughter" is both morally wrong and will achieve no deterrent purpose. We need to make the Generals feel the pain by humilating them and making their paranoia into reality. If they bomb our Kabul embassy by making up stories of 100 Indian consulates then let us open 100 consulates and do the things they accuse us of doing. So covert ops - yes but murdering kin - NO!
These are the same generals who tortured & killed our Army men. Saurabh Kalia, Ajay Ahuja, the list is endless. These pigs themselves & their families should be given the same fate. They kill our children with every terrorist attack that takes place, why should their children be any safe?
Last edited by Chandragupta on 29 Dec 2008 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by ukhrul »

Dear Friends,

The thought of stationing NSG in all four metros is fine, but it is better that Special Police Units be set up in all cities/towns specifically to combat urban terrorism. 5 police officers who have excellent police records and have 5 levels of background checks can be given a training based on SWAT and imparted with special training in electronic countermeasures.

The force should never be recognized officially by the government, they should have all clearances directly from PMO, well funded and most importantly well paid, the NSG can act like an observer and come in only when its most needed. NSG cannot constantly monitor and track sleepers in every part of the country, this force should do that and eliminate the key members of tanzeems and sleeper cells.


Regards,
Ukhrul.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by negi »

Chandragupta wrote:
negi wrote: You might want to remove above comment , please think before you propagate such crap .
That's not crap. Everything that can be done should be done to punish these pigs.
This is the same mentality what Jihadi's have and propagate to justify killing innocent people, and to advocate the same in the US/West is utter chootiyapa infact this would now actually justify all the claims and allegations on India by the ISI and the Islamic extremists in Pakistan.

BRF is widely read so much so that posts made here at times are quoted at other places, posts like above can be taken and quoted out of context.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Rangudu »

From orbat.com
India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan

Please note that Pakistan has withdrawn a second divisional HQ from the NWFP. We assume its is HQ 23 Division plus the one brigade that went with the HQ to NWFP; Mandeep Singh Bajwa will let us know when he has confirmation. we are approaching the point where two-thirds of the reinforcements sent west are in the process of withdrawing. Please also note Bill Roggio at Long War Journal reports that in the Orakzi agency, one of the seven tribal agencies of the NWFP, Taliban has enforced Sharia law on 15 of 21 tribes in the agency. In other words, the Talibanization of the NWFP is proceeding rapidly. We also have an analysis on why Pakistani soldiers are refusing to fight the insurgents - we already knew why, but for the first time we have information from someone on the scene. We will give it to you tomorrow. But all in all, the US by insisting Pakistan fight the insurgents set itself up for failure. Again, we have said this before, we can now say it from another angle. US policy in the region has to change dramatically if there is to be hope of success in Afghanistan.

Our trusty correspondent, Mandeep Singh Bajwa, informed us this morning that India has offered to send 120,000 troops to Afghanistan. Naturally we asked Mandeep "are we being used by the Indians in a psyops game to put pressure on Pakistan?" Not that the Government of India knows we exist, but in all the movies about the media the Editor always asks if the paper is being played.

Mandeep's answer, paraphrased, was this: "I don't know at what level the offer has been made, but the Indian Army and Air Force are down to identifying specific units, formations, and squadrons..." - details, as we said, at Long War Journal - "...as well as discussing a specific name for force commander, plus working on the details of pre-deployment training, so this is a lot more elaborate than needed for a psyops game.'

We'd prefer to discuss this after we learn more, rather than waste your time with elaborate theories spun out of nothing ("Orbat.com's military sources say..."). But the following points are immediately apparent.

For the new US administration, this offer would be heaven-sent and just making it would put the US Government in debt to the Indians - "your other friends/allies talked, we walked." The administration could turn around to to its own people, and say: "Americans, you complain we are carrying the Afghan burden by ourselves, now we have a partner."

At Orbat.com we've been constantly talking about the need for more manpower; well, here you have a whacking big increment of manpower. With US/Allied troops it takes one to 75% of what Orbat.com considers a minimum force if Afghanistan is to be won.

In one deft swoop, India forces the Americans to chose Delhi over Islamabad. To the Indians the constant US attempt to "balance" the two countries has been a source of serious blood pressure since the 1940s; obviously if the Americans accept it has to be India First from now on and Pakistan gets marginalized. Moreover, the Indians put America up the creek without the paddle regarding Pakistan: "what is it your so-called ally is doing, compared to what we are willing to do."

The devious cunning of the Indian move becomes more apparent when you consider if the US government refuses, the American people are going to get on the Government's case: "The Indians are offering and you're still sticking with those slimey two-timers the Pakistanis?"

For India, offering a huge contingent takes the pressure off the Indian government to act aggressively against Pakistan. India does not have a launch a single sortie against Pakistan to punish it for acting against India. Indian government can tell its own people: "What good will a pinprick do? The Israelis have been bashing up the Palestinians for two decades, and where are the results? What we are doing is to strike a hard blow at Pakistan without crossing the Pakistan border and getting beat up by everyone for provoking war."

Plus India neatly destroys Pakistan's strategic depth objective. The Indians have been wanting to get into the act in Afghanistan for several years, because they know a Taliban government means more fundamentalist pressure on Pakistan and thereby on India. But the Americans have been refusing India help for fear of offending the Pakistanis. For India to get into Afghanistan in force is to again change the paradigm of Indian-Pakistani relations as happened in 1971 when India split East Bengal from Pakistan. For the last almost 40 years India's efforts to marginalize Pakistan have been stymied. If the US accepts the Indian offer, India gains hugely.

But right now a lot of American decision-makers do not care if Pakistan is offended because they see the latter has no interest in fighting the insurgents or helping the US against the Taliban. Once alternate supply routes are available, US can write off Pakistan and as a consequence, paradoxically, vastly increase its leverage in that country.

As for Pakistani/jihadi retaliation against India or the Indian contingent in Afghanistan, we've said before the Indians don't care. Their point is India is squarely in the sights of the jihadis: India is already under severe, sustained attack and unable to retaliate. As for the security of the Indian troops, that really is the last thing the Indians are concerned about. They want to go to Afghanistan to fight, not to protect their troops against suicide bombers.

Two other minor points in passing. By making this offer, India takes the wind out of Pakistan's sails because the latter has very successful turned the world's attention from the Bombay atrocity to getting the world to stop escalation between India and Pakistan. Every day that goes by, India has less diplomatic/geopolitical freedom to hit Pakistan. But if India has offered several divisions for Afghanistan, obviously the last thing the Indians are thinking of is attacking Pakistan - 3/4th of the Army troops (as opposed to the CI troops) India is earmarking for Afghanistan are from the three strike corps. So India undercuts Pakistani claims that Delhi is preparing to attack.

The second point we find interesting. PRC knows if Pakistan falls to the jihadis, Sinkiang is the next target. By offering to go to Afghanistan, India is directly helping Beijing. Which puts Beijing in a very awkward spot as India is a big rival for influence in Asia. Not only will Indians be helping PRC, if China does send troops to Afghanistan, Delhi will canoodle with Washington without competition from China. The Chinese will have no choice but to join the Afghan venture or lose influence in South and Central Asia, and with Washington.

To sum up: Orbat.com has been second to none in bashing the Government of India as incompetent and impotent. But with this offer, India has overnight changed the rules of game in South/Central Asia and struck a potentially fatal blow at Pakistan. In the end, this could become much, much bigger by an order of magnitude than breaking off East Pakistan in 1971.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by samuel »

If India is truly ready to send a 100,000 into Afghanistan, then that is an impressive demonstration of the will to manage our neighborhood. The more we engage and manage our neighborhood, the better we will be. It would be best if we can time it with the ongoing Pakistani movement east.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by vsudhir »

Wow.

How reliable is orbat? Haven't known them long enough to know either way.
There have been whispers of an A'stan deployment amongst armchair analysts but seldom any details or even broad attainable objectives.

Besdies, the logistics question is yet to be sorted out. No doubt tsp will not hear of transporting supplies to indian troops via khyber. Maybe opening the Iran route to supplying our troops in A'stan is the ace in our sleeve? Will Iran cooperate with us against its momeen birader tsp?

Also, as I wrote elsewhere about this prospect, our troops in A'stan would have a giant bulls-eye painted on them (in saffron shades no less). All the bad guys in FATA - tspa included will unite against our presence there.

Interesting times ahead indeed. If we can turn this crisis into opportunity this way, kudos to dilli babudom.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by shiv »

Rangudu wrote:From orbat.com
India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan
Now why didn't I think of that?

Mandeep's name is there which makes it somewhat credible to me.

If true it will be a good move - but i stopped believing in fairies decades ago.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Surya »

Rangudu

whats ur basis for believing the Orbat stuff??

where can I reach you?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by shiv »

Surya wrote:Rangudu

whats ur basis for believing the Orbat stuff??
If nothing else the news will stop the East moving Paki troops dead in their tracks :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by munna »

Hmm.. If this report has even some amount of truth in it then I think M M Singh is doing the ultimate Punjabi trick (sorry for being parochial :mrgreen: ) of beating the mullah types right back to the Khyber. This move if played well can make him the new age Hari Singh Nalwa who beat the hell out of all those f(m)arc(t)ial races. Go Mannnu Go! I may be horribly wrong in my assumptions but my gut feeling is that he is a silent killer and his work will speak more than what his tongue can. Give him a chance before hanging him.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by negi »

^^ This is a serious development if true .

I have always maintained that India should not meddle in SL, IRAQ and even Afganisthan . We would be only complicating the matters by doing so unlike US we are not geographically isolated from the war ravaged sub continent and we will be only increasing the numbers in our enemy camp.

Also by venturing into Afghanistan we risk unnecessary loss of men and material and for WHOM ? Our armed forces will seize to exist infact to put it more appropriately we would be reduced to armed mercenaries on US pay roll (The motivation and drive for defending the country is far more different than for say fighting some one else's war). GOP's antics notwithstanding PA will infact thank heavens for Indians replacing them to fight against the Taliban , the former can then divert their full attention to its ops on the eastern border.

Al Quaeda is a dangerous outfit and had it not been for Unkil's geographical isolation and superior security measures we would have seen more WTC like incidents, however If GOI does poke its nose in Afghanistan the former will actually carry out such terrorist attacks in India and we all know we are simply not prepared for that kind of a situation.

And believe me unlike US India will still not have the right to pursue or counter attack as the actual perpetrators might again go into hiding somewhere in Pakistan .
Last edited by negi on 29 Dec 2008 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by samuel »

It is such an obviously brilliant move that it exposes the blinders on our policy better than years of defense vs. offense arguments for managing our neighborhood. Unbelievable, and padmaXX to whoever came up with that. Now, can we make it happen?

S
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Rangudu »

Bulls-eye etc. is just an excuse. If our troops go to Afghania, they will hit back if they are attacked. Attacking LeT tents is more satisfying today but to me, the best way to make TSPA pay is to have them experience daily diarrhoea at the thought of two Indian strike formations on their Western front.

Unkil still has to approve this. My view is that they will say no today. But my sense is that if Unkil had trouble sleeping even at the thought of Indian troops annoying TSPA, then today Unkil is probably talking about - "Okay, how many Indian troops can we have there without annoying TSPA"

We put this out there today, with details of the units and types of missions so that when NATO "allies" puss out of Afghanistan one by one, Unkil will have to choose between letting Afghanistan go and this option. Plus, if we are buying American hardware, it would be good to put them to use in this theater.

If another terror attack or scare in the US, UK or Europe were to happen, my bet is that they will first call TSPA and the next call will be to us to "request" troops.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by samuel »

How to tighten this noose?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Surya »

Rangudu - where can I reach you
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Singha »

given the hyper porous nature of their western border, and the easy movements of tribal fighters , traders, smugglers and refugees it is very easy for indian spies and covert action teams to infiltrate from the west.

pakis always seem to work themselves up into a froth at the 1000s of RAW
spies and 10 yindu consulates there :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by saip »

Is nt one of the conditions of Mushyrat for his cooperation after 9/11 that Indian troops should not be used in afaghanistan (not that it matters) ?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Chandragupta »

There would no doubt be strong strategic gains from such a move but are you willing to risk the lives of thousands of our soldiers? I'm not.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Rangudu »

Surya

rangudu at fastmail dot fm
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Post by Raju »

Rangudu wrote:From orbat.com
India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan
So that was what it was all about.

very smart.
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