Bharat Rakshak

self deleted

As I said its early days yet for any specifics on the subject. However Afghanistan would welcome a greater Indian involvement in fighting the insurgents and development.

The Indian Armed Forces have been wanting strategic leverage in the region for years. They will give serious thought to the project.

Are politicians' commitments ever worth anything ? We in this country have had bitter experiences in this regard. However I feel that the Army will not make it an issue to the point of giving anything less than their 100% to the deployment.

We already face a multitude of threats. In the face of those we cannot make a retreat on what will turn out to be strategic initiatives. The answer is to boost our own security multiple times rather than bury our heads in the sand hoping that then the threat may go away or recede.

Having said that a cold,hard look has to be taken at the entire strategic ramifications of the proposal.

Its not just about the Indian Troops being sacrificed but Indian troops fighting for the US cause and obviously under latter's directives.I don't know what strategic advantage you see in opening the new front when even US has to contend with a couple of drone attacks say every week even though there is nothing which justifies US intervention in Afganisthan. I definitely don't see US allowing IA to pursue the terrorists inside Pak border , for that would mean US's vindication of India's pov which the former will never concede.

Today there are extremist Islamists everywhere who wish to BOMB US to stone age but they can't as the latter is geographically isolated from the rest of the world and well protected, same is not the case with India .

Case in point it's a fact that Pakistan Army currently has to tackle the Indian threat on the eastern border and the wrath of the Taliban tribes for aligning with the Unkil , an Indian contingent however small will symbolically give the PA an opportunity to easily direct the Taliban against India and allow the latter to resume its agenda in J&K.

As I have said umpteen times unlike India US has nothing to gain from destruction of terrorist camps in POK , on the contrary US still remains wary of India's stand (btw do we have one) our political honchos are ready for extending their support to everyone fighting our there from HAMAS, Israel and LTTE.

Also the current instability and Army's dominance in Pakistan helps US's cause in carrying out its witch hunt in Afghanistan (Btw for crying out loud what is it that USA wants in Afganisthan , I thought they have already bombed the god forsaken place to stone age).

Withdraws ? seriously after receiving a multi billion $ aid this is the least PA can do for USA.

shyamd,

Indian covert capabilites were decimated by I.K.Gujral. Today we aren't doing even a fraction of what TSP accuses us of doing. Upping the ante via Afghanistan without troops to prevent the retaliation is impractical. In other words, if we want to inflict pain on TSPA via Afghanistan proxies then we should have the muscle to support that effort. Our Afghan allies will not undertake missions on our behalf if we are not there to back them up.

no, have you. if you write rubbish to chandragupta when you yourself bring politics in why are you crying like a child if somebody responds to you




you are the one writing rubbish sitting behind a computer safely in uncle land.

since you are least bothered by Govt strategy and are behaving like congress mouthpiece you can afford to be 100% least bothered.

who is bothered about cheap rhetoric. govt is judged on performance.

there have been many attacks in india in city after city and GOI has done nothing (apart from rhetoric). congress supporters like you dont care but i care. my life is affected.

i want strong national security policy from congress not antulay appeasement. unlike you i dont have liberty of letting support for political party overrule desire for security and right to live life in competent state

[/quote]

look who is the one worried about politics. any comment on GOI and you have only 2 method to respond. either you throw garbage at BJP/NDA or you scream, act like little child about "politics" and BRF being "BJP mouthpiece".

if current Govt political actions are incompetent, everyone here has right to say it.

you are the person who is behaving like congress stooge (otherwise why bring in BJP) that you cannot take any criticism of current GOI which is pathetic at handling terror and is happens to be congress.

making nautanki and asking admins to ban you is not going to impress.

i am indian citizen, sitting in india and suffering from GOI inability to handle terror and so, enough is enough -- it means spade should be called spade and the dirty politics of congress (antulay, lack of coherence in GOI on terror) should be exposed. i will do this chandragupta will do this.

if you are not nationalist enough to realise the interest of india over your love for congress then self ban yourself and be ashamed.

Here are some facts:

1. Of all the Talibunnies and Hizbs in Afghanistan, the group with the single largest growth of operations there in 2008 was - LeT. Read US military briefings. LeT has linked up under ISI command with the Haqqani group. LeT was also the group that carried out the Kabul emabssy attack.

2. Most of LeT's infrastructure since 2005 has moved over to the NWFP side around Mansehra and in the FATA in the Haqqani controlled areas, away from the LoC

3. This suggests that if TSPA manages to foist a "moderate" Taliban on the US, then Afghanistan will be used by the ISI to grow LeT's capabilities manifold

We need to stop thinking about this Taliban, AlQ, LeT etc. as separate groups but think about it as a) Groups under ISI's thumb who will not fight TSPA (Mullah Omar's Taliban, Haqqani, Hekmatyar, LeT) and b) Groups that have some independence from ISI (like Baitullah, JeM/HuJI/HuM and Deobandi gangs) and then you have the groups that use the ISI but have transnational goals (Uzbek groups, Chechens, AlQaida). Remember that the LeT was founded in Eastern Afghanistan even though it was staffed by Pakjabis.

dear rangudu

if the will is there covert operations in pakistan can be restarted quite quickly. it is all about political will, that means the politicians have to run risk of tit for tat attack in india, which can only be stop if strong internal security is done.

that means votebank issues are in threat.

we do not need to rely on afghan for hitting in pak.

like was said recently in "conversation" -- kasav was paid rs 1.2 L for mumbai ops. india if india wants can pay 100 kasavs every month to do 10 x damage to pak.

it is just political will to go ahead with it.

only 2 people have done this ---> Indira G and PVNR

ABV did not know what to do when this was presented to him, so kept silent. he chose other option: Operation parkaram to make pak bleed using fire assault and escaltion and at least gave focus to internal agencies (marks 7/10)

but MMS was given this option after mumbai bomb attack --> he did not do it. he did not remove SPatil also and internal security has not improved. (marks 2/10)

so humbly speaking india does not need to go to afghan to hit in pak. india can hit in pak anytime.

it is all political will.

Mandeepji, I assume you are the bearer of good news on Orbat's site so let me first say a thousand thanks to you for bringing us this message of hope.
To my fellow rakshaks who don't think this is a good idea, I ask you to reread the entire post by Rman who was qouting from Orbat.com. Let me qoute an important para from it:
Now imagine if 3/4 of the Indian troops deployed to Afghanistan are from strike corps then we are talking about the sharpest tip of the Indian Army being deployed to Pakistan's western front. These troops are not trained for BSF like border protection duties. The training and objectives of these troops has been geared towards what most of us have always desired i.e. destruction of Pakistan's ability to wage war against India. I assume a large Indian contingent will require the acquistion/creation of Indian Armed forces bases in a part of the world that is lot closer to CAR. This move plays well into our long term outlook. If we desire to play a larger global role then we must have the ability to wield a larger Danda too. There will be some losses for us too as nothing comes cheap but if we repay the Pakis by having the ability to wage war on both their fronts then TSPA loses all arguments it has made till date to the Pakis to keep itself in Power. They always wanted to have strategic depth so they cultivated the Tallibunnies on the west. Today the Tallibunnies are hunting TSPA and India may soon be on their western front too so an Average Abdul may wonder what is it that TSPA has to show for all its strategic brilliance of 60 years.

Biju



troops from all major formations have done COIN in JK and NE

21 strike corp was also form from IPKF troops who mostly did peacekeeping and also combat

just because troops are deployed from strike corp does not mean strike corp is going to pakistan. and afghanistan war will be dirty and full of COIN challenge

i agree with rangudu that we have to handle some work in afghanistan

my concerns is that present GOVT should have long term nationalist view on this and not use this as temporary diversion for elections ----> that means betrayal of soldier and strategy like in IPKF

I doubt even the current government can pull off an "Afghan deployment" just for electoral gains. Not all the wings of Government are stupid (not yet- another term for the same BS could lead to that situation). There are some advantages for Indian army to station itself in Afghanistan. However, it has to negotiate for an independent role and not be part of NATO agenda. Otherwise there will be a lot of casualities without much of strategic gain.

Vikram_S

Stop thinking in terms of current govt. From what I can gather as well as Mandeep's excellent reporting, this appears to be an initiative coming from outside govt and now being pushed by armed forces and MEA brainstrust. There is no indication that this has anything to do with the political leadership, if we can call the current dispensation that.

If this moves forward, it will be under a new government, after the diplomats and armed forces present various options and scope and time horizon of deployment and the political leadership will then have to make the call.

Think of this as the building of a new "astra" in the quiver and that Mumbai has given the political impetus to unsheath the astra. Whether it is unsheathed now or if we wait till the inevitable next hit is up in the air. We can trust the TSPA to keep pushing it until they see the unsheathed weapon aimed at their head.

As to jumrao's post, India should NOT send any troops under ANY US or NATO command. Indian soldiers report to Indian Army chief who reports to the Rashtrapati advised by the Cabinet. We may have to pay for it out of our kitty but so be it. No dealing with Unkil except for tactical coordination and diplomatic covering fire but we should not do their dirty work i.e. be posted in vulnerable outposts and serve as bait for hordes of jihadis to run over. We will have our own logistics, our own assets, our own command and our own scope of operations.

Vikram, I feel you are trying to judge the intentions of the current GoI rather than their actions. While I agree that the current Govt has failed in the area of internal security, I am going to hold my judgement about this Afghan deployment for a few years. These measures are going to take time to work. We all wished for this Govt to act and if it has finally woken up to act then atleast give it a decent chance to succeed. In light of current events even the major opposition party, read BJP, has been rallying behind the govt so I hope you will do the same for India's sake. If these actions are nothing more than a gimmick then there is the next federal elections to adminster justice to the ruling party. BTW as a polite request to Vivek and Vikram, We all realize that the two of you have divergent Political leanings and it does not help the thread when you berate each other about these choices.

sir, after mumbai attacks can anyone say "all the wings of Govt are not stupid"?
after malegaon joke, after NSA acting as representative for n-deal.

in GOI to survive there is one time lasting trick ---> find next bakra. our whole system is very shaky. only thing is using GOI name, they have fooled commoners like me into thinking they are smartest in india, super competent and such things.

after reading PC mail i was laughing so much. it was not even 100th of the detail discussions here have or even as competent. and this is armchair forum. this is GOI.

getting to point.

my fear is that In Army will become bakra like in IPKF

I have no problem in being "out of box" in killing TSP jihadis. i just want it done at as low cost as possible.

i dont want indian army again suffering wounded and crippled for short term tactical genius @ election time.

if this is well thought out long term plan than i will support MMS/UPA or anyone

that is mythinking.

I assume that a larger geostrategic plan is involved rather than just a spectacular show aimed at influencing the elections. The deployment of a large Indian expeditionary force in Afghanistan definitely implies a greater involvement and long-term strategy than just an electoral ploy. The truth is that India has always wanted a presence in that part of the world. In the past various factors prevented the fructification of such thinking or desires.

Now with these same factors becoming positive or favourable these plans could be put into effect. Having say an Indian Corps poised in what Pakistan considered its area of strategic depth and treated as its back-yard will substantially change the geopolitics of the subcontinent.Of course such a deployment cannot but be exploited for political gains.The equivalent of such a move would be in history the creation of Bangladesh.Perhaps of greater strategic significance than that even.

self deleted

This is all a pipe dream.

The US will NEVER ruin its "special" relationship with Pakistan even after it knew full well that TSPA provided the logistics for 9/11. The US armed forces will in no way endanger their overfly and land supply routes via Pakistan. Alternative routes will be secured in case of problems, but Pak territory will remain the primary route. Secondly, has anyone thought as to how the IA will get logistical support to do this? The only way I see this happening is to get port facilities in southern Iran (Bandar Abas or Jask) and then rail & truck into Afghanistan, but the US will never agree to this route. That leaves a route via Tajikistan, but the cost to support the 120K Indian troops with heavy armor and artillery will put a tremendous strain on the IAF's heavy lift capability when it may be needed for natural disasters and other in country use. Maybe if the GoI expressed an interest to buy two squadrons of C-5 Galaxy's, along with the offer 120K troops, the US may agree.



And how many will the terrorists kill and destroy by then?

The ONLY response to terrorism is a comprehensive Indo-Pak war! There is no other solution.

biju few points so that it is clear to you:

1. GOI is judged by actions and intent both. let us be clear here, GOI has failed thoroughly and not just now for many years. current GOI in list of incompetent GOI is far worse. so it is absolutely valid to judge their commitment and their long term goals and plans.
giving them free pass in name of national pride and unity is stupid. i am too old to fall for such fake calls. i have seen what happens to national pride and unity in actual families affected by war and terrorism. all i want is for effective measures.

2. i dont care if BJP has been rallying behind congress. what loyalty do i have to BJP? my loyalty is to country, safety of myself and loved ones (human right to exist) and people like armed services who are few i still respect in country. BJP gaya tel lene as far as what they say i should do.



i dont have "divergent political leanings". i EDITED when people here express anger at total failure of incompetent GOI at terrorism.

i have to see daily effect of this EDITED terrorism where people dont use buses, are sitting without faith in country, have all sorts of trouble, have families with cripples

this is 30th year of terrorism from 1980s what has GOI done?

if congress was strong on terrorism i would be 100 % supporter. i am admirers of PVN Rao for his strong approach on terrorism, which he did not back down but that does not mean i will let idiots and incompetents in present Govt get free pass

If the news is true and the logistics can be figured out, it will be a master stroke

1) Pakistan needs throw out all the existing war plans and start thinking about Western front
2) Will give great leverage for India while negotiating with Central Asian Oil countries, and we control one of sought after corridors
3) This will form band of brothers fighting Islamic Terrorism (This will be very crucial for Hindu majority India in next decade)
4) This will raise India's global profile on WoT similar to the Somalian Piracy
5) We can help alleviate the suffering of our Baluchi brothers
5) Short-term, it gives a leverage to Unkil for negotiating with Pakis and Unkil drives a hard-bargain
6) Finally, we can tell Zaid Hamid, that we will meet him at Peshawar instead of Panipat

People who are against it, How does this option sound when compared to nuke war...

self deleted

This news is not there anywhere except form Orbat site. I still cannot imagine/believe that Unkil will allow this at all. When US requested Indian Armed forces for Iraq, India while responding a NO has requested to be part of Afghan cleanup for which Unkil's response was a vehement NO. At BR we are already on third page about this and how credible is this Orbat news needs to be watched.

Why don't you guys stick to the discussion rather than interminable inter-personal nitpicking ? You're warned that such behaviour will not be tolerated henceforth !

Dude, when Hamas took over Gaza, Israel lost almost every intelligence source in Gaza. It took Israel 6 months to build up that capability back again(it is still not as good as it was under the PA, but still decent enough to strike key terror leaders), and we are seeing results now.

Didn't the CIA use their mercenaries in afghanistan to try and kill/capture OBL prior to 2001, despite not being present. Worst comes to worst, if the agents are exposed will be on the first flight out to Dubai. My point is, if India really wanted to build up their covert capability in Pak, then India can, without having to go into afghanistan. We have done it in the past, what is so different now. It is down to the PM of the day to set the requirements for the intelligence agencies. Then intel agencies/DGMI can do it.

Besides, we both agree that India should have troops in Afghanistan. Thats the most important thing at this juncture.

Lets be realistic, Sending 120,000 troops into afghanistan needs a secure supply route. It will have to be Iran or maybe Russia even. Need to check if Chabahar and the roads built in Afghanistan will meet Indian needs.

War is a better option and very winnable and the problem is eliminated for good, not just for India, but the whole world. What is irritating is when people doubt the IA, IAF and IN capabilities. TSP capability is over-hyped and they are unable to Pu based devices. Their U235 devices are crude and will not be able to sustain a neutron chain reaction.

Even if it is not credible, it is definitely an 'out of box' response for TSP's low cost terror

Mort

indian politicians has been deterred by pakistani nuclear threats --> and indian politicians get input from RAW/IB/MI...so clearly all out war is not desired by indian political side

I'm with you on TSP capabilities and that war is definitely the right way forward. Having said that, this is an option we should consider. Controlling the Afghanistan corridor will bring strategic benefits to India.

It would be highly unlikey that Unkil will accept. A cornered pak will be an evil on steroids. I dont think Unkil is that stupid to accept 120K strike troops. Paki's will threaten nuke proliferation of the crude bomb if Unkil explicitly sides with India, in such a manner. It all depends on what everyone wants as an outcome. For Unkil proliferation of crude bomb is the worst nightmare, as the minute that happens, that will be the end of Unkils worldwide influence.

I think the day Unkil et al decide to explicitly side with india and completely ignore pak, that would result in either complete destruction of pak by Unkil and India or it would be the end of Unkils influence worldwide because of the crude bomb falling into the hands of terrorists. Given the current state, pak itself would be the first target of the crude bomb, that is another matter

Brilliant move!! I knew that MMS would come through with out of the box thinking and he will be able to secure a political consensus on this move other than for the commies. Bravo!

FWIW, I have some friends in the recently retired US mil circles and they have said that at least in the US military up to Col levels there is a lot of enthusiasm for it. Most of them are just fuming at the Afghan mission and their anger with TSP is only exceeded by their contempt for some NATO "allies".

As Mandeep says, the whole US thinking on Afghanistan and TSP's "indispensability" will change once the second route is opened. Germany already has started getting supplies via Russia. You must remember that the biggest reason for Unkil to bend over backwards for TSPA was that they perceived to be getting unprecedented cooperation with Musharraf. After Kayani took over, TSPA has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even make nominal concessions.

They may yet let TSPA veto this, but we need to keep the pressure and see if Unkil thinks the same way once the other logistics route is established and once NATO "allies" puss out one by one. At some point Unkil will have to choose between this and giving up Afghanistan.

Good judgement there. I was loading my bow with an arrow-e-admin for you.
Chill out guys.

Prilliant indeed, IRAN and RU will solemnly aid India in its war after all we will be on deputation for Unkil's witch hunt . As for Rangadu sir... all the BRFites want Kangress GOI voted out and article 370 revoked but how much of it is true reflection of India's mandate , your references too are anecdotal.

really? i got one from jagan, after the nautankibaazi by the other member.

so the other fellow quickly edits his post and escapes. he made a comment: you are talking about the US because you couldnt come here -- that is the attitude

a friend just escaped the mumbai attack (barely) and i will not even talk of myself and others. unfortunately this is the reality of india today that people are dying/crippled like flies.

and we are supposed to be ok with comments about "pride and unity" and dont be biased by people who dont face any of the danger/problems indian citizens are facing

If the other fellow breaks the rules - then please report it rather than get into a flame war.

OT Post Alert :


I did not write the above to imply that you are a BJP supporter but meant to imply that if BJP, the main opposition party (and who will directly benefit from the failures of the current GoI), can find the strength to support the current GoI then I hope you will find some strength too within you to support the Govt of India. We do not have much chances of success if we are not united at this hour . There will be elections in the near future for most Indians to show their displeasure to the current GoI.



I meant that Vivek and you do not necessarily agree with the politics practised by the current GoI and you guys agruing about political preferences does not help this thread. As for the comments about chicken hawks sitting in US/Japan behind their keyboard talking of politics, let me confess I am one too. While you may not know but many NRI's have most of their families living in India. Let me give you 2 anecdotal evidence of how terrorism affects us directly. In Jul, 2003 there was a bomb blast in a Best bus in Mumbai Rediff link. At the time my wife was in India at my parents place and was less than a mile away from this incident and heard the loud blast first hand. Even during the recent Mumbai attacks there was blast less than a mile from my in-laws place and they heard it first hand. Distance from India may save my behind, but it does not spare my family nor does it spare me when i visit. We all want a safe and secure India for our selves and our familes. How we go about achieving it is what we are here to discuss and learn from each other.

Before we open champagne in honor of MMS, we need to make sure that it's GoI position. Per Rangudu, this is being thought-out by sources outside GoI.

so where is his warning now that he was smart enough to delete his post first? and then report mine?

or are his comments ok "ranting rubbish", "he could not get down to US so he is saying this",

Jagan saar was quick! I hope you calm down now. I didn't see his post so I cannot make a judgment. And, mind you, if someone throws a flame bait it does not give you the license to break the rules. Indian citizens are facing problems yes. What makes you think that those overseas do not feel for India? have debates on points, not based on where one is located. Once you go on to mundane things like that, the discussion turns into flames within minutes.

The flame war on this thread is to cease forthwith. All concerned please be warned.

Biju, I second your post. Just to add your post, I would like to add that my mother, sister and about 20 members of my extended family barely escaped from VT station during this attack. Therefore even if we are not personally present in India, we remain Indians and have loved ones that are exposed to terror. As we have seen, for every Indian (in India or abroad) the lives lost in these terrorist attacks were precious.

Mandeep

Could you email me at rangudu at fastmail dot fm please?