Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocean

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RajeshA
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Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocean

Post by RajeshA »

I am opening this thread to better understand Anglo-American Strategy in the Indian Ocean and in South India.

There is much going on under the covers and I hope we try to unveil it, and strengthen our position.

BRF has a strong representation from the South and I hope all would contribute to discern a pattern. Though at times the discussion here may become controversial, I sincerely hope it does not throw us off course!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

I think India needs to be very careful of British and American designs in Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.

We have seen a steady and continuous Anglo-American interest in Tamil Nadu. American politicians now go to Chennai. There is a concerted proselytization being carried out in Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu also seems to have a very active lobby for retaining English in India, thus anchoring India to the Anglo-American world order, or to strengthen its own separate identity. This exceptionalist, which in some cases leads to separatism as well, is being carried out under the umbrella of English and not Tamil. India's birth defects are being exploited.

Also there has been a stiff criticism by the West of Sri Lankan war crimes. Now criticism of human rights abuses is warranted where ever they take place. But when USA/UK become very vocal about human rights abuses, war crimes, then one has to wake up and try to understand why they are doing this.

So what is the game being played in Sri Lanka & Tamil Nadu?

Britain did become a hub for collecting funds for supporting LTTE. There were many Sri Lankan Tamils living in Britain and they were helping where they could. However Britain never went all out to support the Tamils in Sri Lanka to attain Tamil Eelam. They could have given LTTE and other groups more material, more diplomatic support to attain a separate state in the North and Northeast of Sri Lanka. But they did not do this. Why? Simply because that was not their aim. UK and USA wanted the Tamils to be badly mauled in Sri Lanka.

The theory is that their aim was to
  1. to increase their sense of disenchantment, despondency and victimization,
  2. to increase their sense of disillusionment from India, and
  3. to make the plight of Sri Lankan Tamils an issue in Tamil Nadu, putting Tamil Nadu and the Center at loggerheads, and
  4. to channel this despair of the whole Tamil people into distancing them from India and adoption of them by the West.
  5. Language issues and Evangelism were to drive further wedges between Tamil Nadu and rest of India.
What we see is China and Pakistan taking over the Sinhalese and UK and USA combo taking over the Tamil side. The more UK and USA presses Sri Lankans on the issue of war crimes, the more Sri Lankans would lean on the Chinese to save them in the United Nations Security Council. This pushes the Sri Lankans away from the Indians. Indians may support the Sinhalese but nowhere can Sri Lanka receive better support in the UNSC than from the Chinese. If the Indians support the Tamils in the conflict, then the Sri Lankans are driven further into the arms of the Chinese, endangering India's strategic interests in the Indian Ocean. Sri Lankans could theoretically give the Chinese a naval base there.

UK and USA are deliberately trying to push the Sinhalese into the arms of the Chinese by being vociferous in their criticism of Sri Lankans. They know the more India tries to support Sri Lanka to avoid a Chinese expansion there, the more the Tamils would get pissed off from India and turn to the West. And it would not just be the Sri Lankan Tamils but Tamil Nadu Tamils as well.

It is also in UK/USA interest to that there is a hardliner in Sri Lankan Presidency who is not willing to look for a solution to the ethnic divide. It would be very much in India's favor if the Sinhalese and the Tamils in Sri Lanka would be able to find an amicable solution and peace.

But would UK and USA allow that! So many Sri Lankan Tamils live in the UK. UK is able to control the mood of the Sri Lankan Tamil community.

So the theory says, that UK and USA are slowly trying to pry open India's unity using the Sri Lankan ethnic problem.

It is just one theory!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

Yes and then there was that mystery about Rajiv Gandhi's assassination!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posting from "Sri Lanka - News & Discussions" Thread

Post from Philip

don't know if any remember one of my posts in the immediate aftermath of the defeat of the LTTE,when I said that Pres.Rajapakse now had the opportunity to emulate emperor Asoka after his defeat of Kalinga and win the hearts and minds of the defeated northern Tamils,the majority who had also suffered at the hands of the LTTE.

It is now incumbent of the Pres. to undertake a transparent open investigation into genuine war crimes allegations-at least for his reconciliation commission,but what is frankly disgusting and smacking of rank hypocrisy are the cries from the western nations who have killed innocent civilians in the lakhs in the Balkans,Iraq,Afghanistan ,Pakistan and now in Libya, and who have zealously protected their own leaders responsible for that genocide,the likes of Bush,Blair and co.,continuing now with their successors using the same excuses to carry on as before.There is a clear difference between the war in Lanka,which was the equiv. of a bloody no-holds-barred civil war and the invasions and attacks by the west,which show up neo-imperialism to the fore.The BBC and other wetsern media should first ,as the good book says,"pluck out the mote from their own (country's) eye,before attempting to pluck it out from another's"!

It is very clear that certain neo-colonial and imperialist entities in the west are now firmly rooting for the remnants of the terrorist LTTE who are safely ensconced in their lands,taking their cue from the western masters,in an attempt to regain their lost foothold in the island.Unfortunately,Tamilnadu is going to become the springboard for these attempts and India must be extremely watchful not to allow the LTTE to gain afoothold in TN again.Let's not forget that the very same diaspora Tamils claiming to represent the interests of northern Tamils in the island never condemnd the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi and actually justified his murder by the LTTE as revenge for the IPKF's supposed "war crimes" when it tamed Prabhakaran and co.The LTTE diaspora are agents of the very western entities who enslaved much of Asia and India 500+ years ago and who shamelessly are selling their souls for 30 pieces of silver.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by svenkat »

RajeshA wrote: Tamil Nadu also seems to have a very active lobby for retaining English in India, thus anchoring India to the Anglo-American world order, or to strengthen its own separate identity. This exceptionalist, which in some cases leads to separatism as well, is being carried out under the umbrella of English and not Tamil. India's birth defects are being exploited.
With all respect to you.Sirjee, :rotfl:

Saar,
I am sure you are not starting the thread with stan guru in mind. :rotfl:

Will have something substantive to say later on other issues.

I have been following the language discussions in GDF.Tamizh people are today learning and using Hindi more than ever before.Ofcourse,I do not deny the presence of 'fringe' elements which are dangerous.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, Try to post Robert Kaplan's new book exceprts to get an idea of one US thinker's mind. Also try to get hold of Adm Mahan's quote on Indian Ocean. There is beautiful article by V.Adm Mihir Roy in USNI Proccedings about India and Indian ocean. Then there is the book by Adm S.N. Kohli on same subject.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Sushupti »

ramana
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

Some related material:

Maritime security challenges in Indian Ocean CDR. Ghosh

mahan quote on Indian Ocean
"Whoever controls the Indian Ocean dominates Asia. This ocean is the key to the seven seas in the twenty-first century, the destiny of the world will be decided in these waters."
Alfred Thayer Mahan
CDR Ghosh writes in this blog

Indian OCean dynamics An Indian Prespective

...
The ‘activity’ in the Indian Ocean region is defined by extensive trade, energy transfers and a spectrum that ranges from political turbulence on one end, to threats from piracy, terrorism and transnational crime on the other. Most importantly, it is an area that has become witness to a jostle for power, and subsequent shifts in the dynamics of the region.

This struggle has intensified as a consequence of the ‘imperial overstretch’ of US forces, and a commonly perceived erosion of US influence. There is growing participation in the area from other major players seeking primacy along with the US. The new players are primarily India and China, with Australia, Indonesia and South Africa occasionally playing the role of aspirant kingmakers.

The region has become ripe for geostrategic competition due to the presence of mutually distrustful littorals, who have prevented the creation of an overall security architecture, despite similar priorities and a common interest in maritime operations. Multilateral forums, such as the Indian Ocean Rim Association for Regional Cooperation (IOR-ARC), formed in March 1997, have an economic agenda and are presently widely considered moribund. The fate of numerous regional or sub-groupings is better in some cases as they cater exclusively to regional aspirations.

Given the atmospherics, India — with its large maritime capacity — has attempted to play the role of an ‘unobtrusive fulcrum’ and a ‘balancer of power’ in the region. It created the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in 2008 with enthusiasm from all participating littorals. Unfortunately, the focus of the movement seems to have diffused now, while it meanders along with its meetings — the most recent one held in the United Arab Emirates.

China has been making increased forays into the Indian Ocean Region(IOR) in the interests of energy security and trade. Spiralling demand for energy from India, China and Japan has led to an inevitable and enhanced sensitivity around the security of the Sea Lines of Communication (SLOCs) and of choke points which dot the entrances of the Indian Ocean. After all, at current levels of consumption, India’s oil import dependence is expected to rise to 91.6 per cent by 2020, while in the case of China it will be 76.9 per cent. With large volumes of energy and trade for China coming from West Asia and Africa, it is inevitable that the Chinese will attempt to ensure Indian Ocean SLOC security.

While the Chinese have made inroads into Pakistan (Gwadar), Sri Lanka, Myanmar, the Indian Ocean Islands and Bangladesh as part of its ‘string of pearls policy’ of encirclement, India has been trying to cast its strategic net well beyond the region. It is actively pursuing a multi-pronged response strategy, which seeks to neutralise Chinese influence in its immediate neighbourhood while simultaneously courting states on its periphery, many of which are apprehensive of creeping Chinese aggressiveness.

Elevating bilateral relations with South Korea to a strategic partnership, a strategic dialogue with Japan and quiet support for the Vietnamese on the South China seas are all part of the Indian design. Focused attempts at enhancing its political-military relations with Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines and Myanmar, are all part of this process.

Bangladesh, along with Indian Ocean islands, and East African states have also been on the receiving end of Indian largesse in various forms. Moving further westward, India has been strengthening its economic, security and diplomatic relationship with Iran, not only to neutralise Pakistan but also to checkmate the Chinese hold on Gwadar port.

The growing incidents of piracy emanating from the failed state of Somalia and the semi- autonomous Puntland have strategic implications for the ongoing struggle. The naval melee of various task forces and warships acting independently in the region has thrown up strategic lessons and questions. The Chinese naval deployment in this field not only reinforces its strategic reach and sustenance capability, but also displays its capacity to act swiftly and flexibly.

With the tacit agreement of the US, which insists on India’s large and capable maritime force playing a larger role in Indian Ocean politics — and given the China threat factor, which looms large in minds of small and large nations alike — it is likely that India will enhance its influence in the region. India’s strategic ethos will, however, mean that it will insist on taking important friends like Australia, South Africa and Indonesia along in this process for greater development of the region.

Probal Ghosh was Coordinator of the IONS 2008 inaugural seminar and helped in conceptualising the initiative. Currently he is a Senior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, (ORF) India. He is also the Co- Chairman of the CSCAP International Study Group on Maritime Security (Naval Enhancement).
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

svenkat ji,

of course I have learned a few things in Link-Language Thread, but the issue here is much broader, and I don't mean to "target" any BRFite. Everybody is free to express his opinion. Stan ji too is most welcome!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

ramana garu,

will try to do so!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: We have seen a steady and continuous Anglo-American interest in Tamil Nadu. American politicians now go to Chennai. There is a concerted proselytization being carried out in Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu also seems to have a very active lobby for retaining English in India, thus anchoring India to the Anglo-American world order, or to strengthen its own separate identity. This exceptionalist, which in some cases leads to separatism as well, is being carried out under the umbrella of English and not Tamil. India's birth defects are being exploited.
I think things are a lot more complicated than that. Tamil culture is strong and the retention of English should not be mistaken as an attempt to "be different". It is exactly the opposite. It is an attempt to keep the bonds with the rest of India because it is the easiest link language. English got a special role in Tamil Nadu for the same reasons that it got a special role in Bengal - the Brits had major ports and presence there from which they spread out.

English is as much a link language between Tamil Nadu Kerala, Andhra and Karnataka as it is with the rest of India. I hope you are not falling into the category of "stupid North Indian " (stupid "chapati") who thinks the South is all Tamil Nadu. If you are, you are pissing off about 160 million non Tamilian South Indians - which is exactlly the complaint among many South Indians. The "dominant" Tamil Nadu is heard louder than others just like "dominant Hindi" is heard louder than Bengali or Punjabi.

On the other hand, Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka have a shared history and the script of both languages is similar. Andhra Pradesh people however are comfortable with a unique from of urdu-ized Hindi. This is much like Mumbai Hindi which - like its Andhra cousin is spoken with confidence but really does not constitute the "swacch Hindi" that Hindi chauvinists think they speak when they laugh at anyone else who is confused by the gender of words and where one says "uski" instead of "uska"

Karnataka falls somewhere in between Tamil Nadu and Andhra and while Kannada chauvinists exist the people of the state are often bi lingual or tri lingual with Konkani, Tulu, Telugu, Tamil or Marathi or Hindi/Urdu. The people of Kerala are like bongs. they will speak nothing but Malayalam if they meet another mallu.

No person from the South can differentiate between anyone from UP, Bihar or Madhya Pradesh simpiy because they are all "Hindi". They are as "stupid" about the North and those from the North who thinks South is all about "Madras" and "Madrasi". But any person from the South is able to tell if the other person speaks Telugu, Tamil, Kannada or Marathi. Bengali and Punjabi too are recognizable as Surds - as many Sikh communities have blended into South Indian states for decades. Sardars as a community take pains to learn the local language. Sindhis exist in visible numbers in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu - having been settled there after partition.. They are wealthy community who have integrated well. Marwaris and others too are well integrated with Hindi being their link along with the local language. Jainism is big in Karnataka.

It is easy to misread South India without some in depth familiarity.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Oct 2011 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by SwamyG »

Shiv saar: How is Tamil Nadu "dominant" ?
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by svenkat »

Thank you,Shivji for explaining things so lucidly.

But I think Kerala being so over populated does not have to worry about 'outsiders'.Also malayalam being an incredible 'mix' of Tamizh and Samskrutam,Keralites are least chauvinist and most open minded.IMVHO and all that.

Also I would add,that telugus being the numerically largest in South India and being found in significant numbers in both TN and Karnataka have little anxieties of being outnumbered.

The Tamizh predicament is more complex and I will come back with a detailed post.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by shiv »

SwamyG wrote:Shiv saar: How is Tamil Nadu "dominant" ?
Compared to Kanndigas, who are relative wimps - they are! Well let me not piss off too many people :D First, Tamil is sufficiently different and sufficiently old to form a unique pocket of its own. Malayalam and Kannda and Telugu have soem similarities with Tamil - but when you dig "deeper" into modern Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam there is a lot more Sanskrit abnd a lot less commonality with Tamil.

I don't know about Malayalam, but the Kannada alphabet is the same as the Hindu/Sanskrit alphabet. Tamil is unique and the people of Tamil Nadu have a "presence' because of Tamil.

As a boy in a state that is considered to be South by the North and considered North by the South (Maharashtra) I was often exposed to the "dumb North Indian" who described my family as "Madrasis". Nothing pisses of a Kannadiga more than that. He is not Madrasi, and the North Indian who calls him that is an idiot. Madras, "Madrasis" etc have a much bigger presence in the mind of people in the North than any other South Indian state. i mean who the fug knows about "Karnataka? It's Madras innit? And they speak Madrasi. :D

Incidentally the "cusp" position of Maharashtra can be seen in the following interesting way. When I lived in Maharashtra (Poona/Pune) as a boy the Shiv Sena were busy trying to discriminate against South Indians. Right now, in today's news, the MNS is taking it out in Maharashtra against North Indian taxi drivers. Funny stuff for those who don't have to face it. :P
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

thanks for your perspectives and insights. You are quite right. I am a Punjabi with little knowledge of the South. Regrettably so!

I have had the fortune of having some very good friendships from the South, but I haven't had an intense relationship with South as yet. Most of what little I know, I know from media.

However in this case, I think, what I wrote stands!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by shiv »

svenkat wrote:Thank you,Shivji for explaining things so lucidly.

But I think Kerala being so over populated does not have to worry about 'outsiders'.Also malayalam being an incredible 'mix' of Tamizh and Samskrutam,Keralites are least chauvinist and most open minded.IMVHO and all that.

Also I would add,that telugus being the numerically largest in South India and being found in significant numbers in both TN and Karnataka have little anxieties of being outnumbered.

The Tamizh predicament is more complex and I will come back with a detailed post.
Karnataka occupies a strange position. For example movies. Big budget blockbusters are often released simultaneously in Hindi, Tamil and Telugu. The Kannada movie industry which purports to have the biggest Kannada chauvinists is a distant second to the others.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

People of Karnataka are great coalition builders. All the great empires of the last two millienium (Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas, Hoysalas, Vijayanagara, even some of the Bahmanis) where from the Karnataka land. Even in the British period they managed to keep their own land out of British hands (Mysore) and kept the culture alive.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by svinayak »

Control of Indian Ocean and control of India from Diego Garcia!
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it strange that a thread entitled “Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocean” is predominated by a discussion of all the ethno-linguistic dividing lines of South India?

Is this not akin to seeking understanding by using an ‘outsider’s’ perspective?
Does this not seem like the abrogation of Indian strategic perspective and prerogative? Like ‘losing’ before ‘playing’?

India is a polyglot society, whose diverse people hail from many different ethno-cultural traditions. Accept it, and give ‘outsiders’ no room to manoeuvre around this truth. Or, continue to focus on all those dividing lines, and invite ‘outside interference’.

Another two paise from me.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by devesh »

^^^
agree with the above. no offense to RajeshA ji, but this thread is another one with an ambiguous and even self-defeating title.

can the title be changed to simply: "Anglo-American Strategy for India and Indian Ocean Region"?

the "South India" thing creates a whole new paradigm of "oh...look, South is different from North, and requires different policies".....it really seems self defeating.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

Gentlemen,

this thread is for studying possible Anglo-American designs with focus on South India. It has nothing to do with how the various ethnic groups in South relate to each other, unless one can think up some conspiracy theory how the Anglo-Americans are using those dynamics to pursue their interests.

devesh ji,

in the second post of this thread, I put up a theory. According to that theory Anglo-Americans have a very specific design which is focused on South India. There is already a thread "US Policy on Jammu and Kashmir"! This thread is about a different region of India.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by RajeshA »

One Conspiracy Theory, I am putting up is that Anglo-Americans want to get a complete grip over the Tamil politics, and either use Tamil proximity to Anglo-Americans to exert influence over Indian politics, or to under circumstances do the same thing do to India, what the Brits did to India in 1947.

In 1947, the Brits built up the Muslim League to both love the Brits and to hate the other Indics, cause a partition of India, so that they could use Pakistan to on the one hand stop Indian moves in Central Asia and Middle East, and on the other to control these regions as well as India through Pakistan.

The theory is that the Anglo-Americans are up to their their old tricks again. This time instead of Muslims, they want to use Dravidianists. The Anglo-Americans may try to make another Pakistan in Tamil Nadu and possibly in a bigger part of South India.

As of yet, it is just a Conspiracy Theory. I hope to better test this theory in this thread.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

I think a few more pages are needed to study the A-A motivations and interests before coming to modalities to further them.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by devesh »

Pakistan's "usefulness" is increasingly diminishing for the AA's. consequently, we *might* be seeing a gradual resurgence of India in the Iran-CA-India triangle. from AA perspective, they are watching a huge country with vast coastline on Indian Ocean, simultaneously project into CA. this is cause for worry. if India manages to connect to CA and also dominate IOR, AA global posture receives a huge blow.

so, the EJ infiltration into South is a preemptive shot to take out at least one aspect of the above scenario (namely, dominating IOR). if they are successful in plunging South into a "bleeding from a thousand cuts" scenario by using a committed minority (EJ's), then the Sea-ways are still controlled by AA's.

the penetration into South, imvho, is a preemptive attack to neutralize before it can be a threat. also, destroys any hope of India being an intellectual/political/economic nerve center for Dakshinapatha: namely all the regions bordering on the Indian Ocean from Africa to Indonesia.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by SwamyG »

Shiv: Thanks for replying. Your post illustrates some uniqueness of tamil; and not the dominance you earlier talked about. The only reason tamilians get visibility is because of the earlier agitation and protests.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by hnair »

shiv wrote:The Kannada movie industry which purports to have the biggest Kannada chauvinists is a distant second to the others.
got a post in OT:
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Ok, lets do this more slowly, shall we?

i) hillary goes to madras: Thats such a sore eye. So how did Narendrabhai Modi seek his visa with the US embassy which was then rejected? Did the US embassy guys come and see him to grant him his visa? How come people such as MK Narayanan talk to the US embassywaalas, which was then released under wikileaks?? How come people in BJP can talk to amrikans, but ADMK cant talk?? If the GoI so hated it, it should have denied permissions no?! The GoI can and does deny permission to Indian leaders to talk to other country people. For example, here is a news item that is inconvenient to this grand postulate: http://nepalitimes.com/issue/2011/07/01 ... ocus/18340
Nepali Times: There have been reports in the Indian media that you have been prevented by the central government from visiting Nepal. Is it true?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, I have wanted to visit Nepal for sometime now. Once I wanted to go there to encourage and see what our engineers are doing to control Kosi floods. On other occasion I expressed my desire to visit Nepal to pay my last respects to the late GP Koirala. I am a socialist and have been very close to socialist leader like BP Koirala when he along with his brother GP Koirala lived in exile in India. GP Koirala even participated in India's independence movement. So that is a kind of intimacy and it was quite natural for me to want to go to Nepal to pay my respects to the great leader. Unfortunately, the central government did not approve of it.

Why did GoI allow JJ to talk to hillary? Cos GoI loves JJ so much? Cos JJ served 1/2 of her muttai biryani to MMS? Cos JJ did an item number?

ii) EJs in tamil nadu: Why no focus on Delhi or Anantapur? Why only tamil nadu? After all, the number 1 district in terms of FCRA funding is Delhi, no. 3 is Bangalore, no. 4 is Hyderabad, no. 5 or 6 is Anantapur. Is Delhi or Bangalore or Hyderabad or Anantapur so sacrosanct? Or is Madras the convenient punchbag for you?

iii) Active lobby for retaining english: So one should necessarily throw out english to become Indianized and if we refuse, we are anglo-brahmins. Wonderful :).

iv) Separate identity of tamil nadu: How about discussing the separate identity of Goa or Sikkim or Hyderabad? Why the unusual focus on tamil nadu? Tamil nadu like much of india had its birth pangs. So what was so exceptional about that? Do people refuse to vote in elections today? If bjp or inc cannot become ruling parties in TN, should the blame be on them or should it be twisted to the regional parties?

v) Human rights criticism: hmmm.. If the us or uk complain, it is a problem. If TN complains, it is a problem. If timbuktoo complains, that too will be a problem. So is the problem with you or with human rights?!

vi) Britain hub for LTTE: So was germany, so was canada, so was australia, so were the scandinavian countries. Every country that hosted tamil expats from sri lanka in the name of asylum was used by a fraction of these expats to launder money, extort from people and funnel it back for illegal arms buying sprees by the LTTE. The brits host many islamists too. AZ Phizo died in London. The dutch hosted Muivah and Swu, and many other Naga supporters for a long time. What is the point you coming to?

vii) UK and usa wanted tamils to be mauled: Unless you have a source into the MI-6 papers, its yet another grand theory of yours. Just like how you can write a 10 step manual for integrating pakistan into india one step at a time.

viii) China and Pak on sinhalese side, uk n usa on tamil side: hmmm.. china and pak are also on bangladesh side. China is also trying to use nepal. Pakistan is also in maldives. China is in burma. Usa used mustang to launch the Khampa uprising. It tries to help pak maintain status quo with India. A laundry list of complaints makes no clarity on purpose than just being yet another laundry list. What is your point, mian?

ix) sri lanka could give a naval base to china: But will it? Will it be so suicidal? Will it try to do a repeat of 1971? Uncomfortableness comes not from raising stupid questions, but in answering stupid questions. In 1971, katunayake was used for refilling by pakis. what happened? have you read j n dixit's book? Will India sit around and watch if a base is set up there. What do you know about the politics of trans-shipment of goods w.r.t. Hambantota? Do you know that hambantota will directly compete with colombo and not with vallarpadam or tuticorin or vizag or madras.. seriously...

x) Tamils will get pissed with india and turn to west: Wow, a grand theory built on another grand theory. Tamils may turn to west, but not bcos of these reasons. But bcos its economically more useful to trade with the west. At the end of the day, the hardcore tamil casteist is a money minded hardcore tamil casteist.. :))))

xi) Uk is able to control mood of sri lankan tamil community: hehhe.. do you know the number of tamils in uk and in sri lanka? seriously, conspiracy theorists should require a brain as a necessary condition, no?

xii) Rajiv's assassination: Cites a blog written by someone we dont know. And that should be taken credibly because 2 or 3 posts were made N yrs back. Seriously man, 4-5 times, one poster by the name dinakar has cited a book by D. Karthikeyan, the chief investigator of the case. There are so many books on this issue if you go to flipkart. Yet an anonymous blog is all there is to cite for conspiracies?!

grand and bravo... wow... wonderful.. building one building on top of another.. life is so fun if we can construct novellas n explain reality without trying to understand complicated life no? :)
devesh
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by devesh »

Stan,

now you are disrupting just for the sake of it. my post said "South", not TN. When I say "South": I meant the four linguistically "South" states.

you are throwing flame baits for the sake of it. you are not going to get a convenient excuse to derail another thread. I was referring to all of "South" not just TN.

you need to understand that South is larger than TN and that when people say South, they mean all of South.
Last edited by devesh on 06 Oct 2011 02:43, edited 2 times in total.
Jarita
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Jarita »

Wasn't Diego Garcia given away by India
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Devesh, the post was addressed not to you but the guy who started this dhaaga (the second and third posts of this dhaaga, specifically). So peace for the time being :).
devesh
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by devesh »

Stan:

your "birth pangs" theory of how TN just had "birth pangs" like "every other state" is a bunkum theory. the Dravidian movement which captured TN was truly exceptional. the level of fierceness which was shown in projecting this movement was unparalleled by any other linguistic movement: Telugus, Kannadas, Shiv Sena, Bengalis, etc nobody matched the level of mass mobilization under the banner of linguistic nationalism in exclusion of the Indian identity...

note my stress on "exclusion of Indian identity".

I don't quite understand why you are getting so much heartburn about the port in SL. the point of BRF is to analyze any and all threats to India. whether it happens or not, PRC finding a nice little port in SL is a threat to India. and open source info indicates that PRC is trying for it. what's wrong with discussing it, instead of just dismissing it.....I am questioning your motives for doing so.

once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.

to the extent that places like Hyderabad have "certain" sections which still dream of Khilafat, those issues are discussed. there has been a lot of talk recently about MIM's politics in Hyderabad in several threads. perhaps you should be open to what's actually going on in BRF.
ramana
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

Jarita, Diego Garcia was part of British Indian Ocean Terroitories (BIOT) which was part of Mauritius. The UK wouldn't grant independence to Mauritius unless BIOT was separated from them. Then they gave the islands to US on long term lease. All this in late 1960s.
Thats how the US got DG islands for their Indian Ocean base.

BTW Sir Sweesagur Ramgoolam was the first PM of Marutius and was Indian origin.
anjan
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by anjan »

You know I'm not entirely certain if such theories aren't so much meant to watch fissures as to create them. My CT is that purveyors of CTs are really the ones we ought to be watching. Propaganda that labels a swathe of a country as "to be watched" or country bumpkins who aren't sophisticated enough and can't be trusted enough to secure the interests of the country seems to me to be proof positive.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

devesh wrote: the point of BRF is to analyze any and all threats to India.
Seriously? If you say so, I will accept it mian. 8)

whether it happens or not, PRC finding a nice little port in SL is a threat to India. and open source info indicates that PRC is trying for it. what's wrong with discussing it, instead of just dismissing it.....I am questioning your motives for doing so.
There is nothing wrong in discussing anything TN related, just the unusual focus that ignores certain inconvenient facts are what makes the analysis amusing and interesting. For so long, noone has bothered to explain why Anantapur and RDT get so much EJ funding pumped in from Spain. Noone has explained why Delhi is right at the top of FCRA contributions. Noone has explained whats the breakdown of FCRA contributions and where these go. You can go to MHA website and you can pull up all these. Noone has explained the caste affiliations that get the FCRA contributions. You can decipher that if you sit down and see the electoral verdicts and figure out the caste votebank in play. And so on.

So when you dice and slice inconvenient facts, one after the other, the true nature of Indic-ness of Indians actually shows through. If you pisk-analyze why certain castes are so easily "convertible" one sees the truly gory nature of Hinduism. Unfortunately, these are all inconvenient for a forum that takes deep pride in the truly rightful nature of Brahminical hierarchy in the mid- to late-1800s. Dont take me too wrong, the Brahmins have been hounded out of Madras State, sure. Nothing reverses that crime. But then if you go back and see why they were easy targets by the Justice Party thugs, some facts look up like giant stones. Of course, doing such analysis requires a certain bit of open-ness of the heart and mind. And mostly time. That open-ness is reserved primarily for pisking pakistan on this forum, not for looking at the faecal matter within.

once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.
Ok, do tell me why such a great fraction of the naxal top honchos are from AP? Please brother, humor me too. Lets pisk AP. Lets figure out where the naxals come from. Please explain why all the top leaders are primarily from AP except for Kishanda. Cmon, or will I become a Tamizh rakshak as Marten so conveniently puts it if I ask inconvenient questions about Telugus?
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by ramana »

All right. Why dont you tell us the 'birth pangs" of Tamilnadu for starters?
Start from fall of Vijayanagara in 1565.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Lets have equal opportunity bashing and bring out the Indic-ness of every state here. The title of this dhaaga starts with "South India" and focuses primarily on TN. So when you state, South India means all of the South, you think you are being credible? South India is a fig leaf to pisk the inconvenient non-Brahmins who rose to demographic certainty. Why they did, what they did, etc., are hardly in question. The fact that they rose up makes them traitors. Eeks, have nt we seen such super logic used for the Telenganites in the T-dhaaga?

Ramana, I will answer if you take the lead and explain why so many naxal top leaders are from AP. Cmon, sir, please take the lead :). After all this is a South India discussion thread.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Rudradev »

devesh wrote: once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.
Devesh, have you ever been to TN and seen this alleged "nationalism in exclusion of the Indian identity" for yourself? Or is this just the conjecture born of viewing a thousand weblinks?

Do you know what happened to the Periyar movement? When China attacked in 1962, all the rhetoric of subnationalism and secession among the Dravida Nadu types, for all intents and purposes, evaporated. The Chinese attack could not have taken place further away from Tamil Nadu; but when push came to shove all the sentiment of victimization and subnationalism was set aside and the "Madrasis" were as Indian as anybody else... equally willing to sell their family gold so that our soldiers on the border could have shoes.

Recently (last year, during the stone-throwing fiesta in the Kashmir Valley), there were "trial balloons" being floated in the Indian Media about the possibility of "joint sovereignty", "autonomy" etc. One of these "trial balloons" included a poll conducted by a major newspaper asking the populations of major cities their opinion on whether India should consider greater autonomy, or joint sovereignty with Pakistan, for J&K.

Of all the cities polled, the "Madrasis" were the only population with a ~100% NO vote on ANY dilution of India's sovereignty over J&K.

Just BTW: in this poll, the city MOST in favour of aman-ki-asha bhaai-chaara give-biss-a-chance interlocution/autonomy/joint sovereignty for J&K wasn't the "Leftist Bong" Kolkata, nor was it my own "regional chauvinist Ghati" Mumbai. I will let you guess who it was.

Now I'm not going to try and extrapolate the results of one poll, blog post or farticle to characterize large sections of the Indian people.

But you don't find me using that datum to level all sorts of insinuations against the "nationalism" and "INCLUSIVE Indian identity" of the proud denizens of our capital city now, do you?
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Rudradev wrote: Do you know what happened to the Periyar movement?
Long answer short, they were co-opted to share power which they of course have nt relinquished ever since. So all that grandstanding, posturing, ideological mishmash was all an avenue for power capturing. One could disagree on the model of co-option and whether it was co-option by forcible means or by voluntary means and other modalities, but the same logic was followed in Mizoram when the CM resigned and the MNF came aboard by sharing power. Sad to say that the "nationalists" of the forum still dont get that Mizoram is probably one sane place in the entire NE even today, even if remnant movements are starting to rise their head today.

The same model is envisioned in Nagaland, and lo and behold, we will hear sermons on how India is not doing it right and how the majoritarian view should be bulldozed there. How the Nagas should accept their sanatana dharmic origins before they can be let inside India, etc. :) We tried that for 64+ years, asked them to convert back with guns and roses, they stood back, and people in the know realize that other means have to be used. And guess who initiated the peace talks with the "Nagaland for Christ" folks?! It was definitely not an INC die-nasty stooge. All the stooges wanted to raze Nagaland to the ground just like Mizoram once was.
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Re: Anglo-American Strategy in South India & the Indian Ocea

Post by Cosmo_R »

Rudradev wrote:
devesh wrote: once again the separate identity of TN is discussed so much b/c TN is the place where regional nationalism IN EXCLUSION of the Indian identity has such a strong hold. Hyderabad doesn't have it. Sikkim doesn't have it. Goa used to have it, but not anymore.
+1. 1962/1971/Kargil Also proves Huntington: "You cannot love what you are until you hate what you're not". Looking at it another way maybe (and only maybe) this Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai and Aman Ki Asha stuff is just plain wrong :).

IMHO, we cannot suck up to those who hate us, dump on those who would be our friends and when in doubt, dance.

The Indian South is far more nationalistic than the 'capital' which seems to be into ''ayat' (as in Pakistaniyat)
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