China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 24 Nov 2014 02:44

FT: Chinese general caught with tonne of cash

When investigators searched the Beijing home of Xu Caihou, one of China’s highest-ranking army generals, they found so much cash and precious gems they needed a week to count it all and 12 trucks to haul it away.

The cash was neatly stacked in boxes, each with the name of the soldier who had paid the bribe in exchange for promotion up the chain of command. Many of the boxes, each containing millions of renminbi, had never been opened, said people familiar with the case.

Investigators swooped on Gen Xu in March, but details of his extraordinary hoard emerged only this week. Chinese law enforcement officials confirmed the cash in total weighed more than a tonne.

The general was one of the most senior targets of an anti-corruption campaign, launched in December 2012 and which has disciplined more than 74,000 people as of the end of September, according to the website of the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the anti-corruption authority.

President Xi Jinping has promised to snare both “tigers and flies” in his campaign but the targets have been overwhelmingly of the latter variety, for offences such as the personal use of government vehicles.

But the trapped tiger with a vast hoard is altogether more rare and more difficult for the authorities to handle.

The Chinese currency comes in low denominations – the highest-value note is Rmb100, about $16 – so a fortune in Rmb100m notes weighs a tonne, according to calculations by Guokr.com a science and tech website.

Gen Xu’s hoard is not the largest so far. In May, investigators detained Wei Pengyuan, the deputy head of the National Energy Administration’s coal department. It took 16 machines to count the more than Rmb200m he had stashed in his home, according to Xinhua, the official news agency. Four of the machines reportedly burnt out due to the workload.

Another Xinhua report told of Ma Chaoquin, the former general manager of a state-owned water company in Hebei province, who kept more than Rmb100m in cash and 37kg of gold in his flat. Mr Ma had also amassed a portfolio of 68 properties by the time investigators caught up with him, said Xinhua.

Mr Ma, who is alleged to have taken bribes and embezzled state funds, was in charge of water supply at Beidahe, the seaside resort favoured by top Communist party officials going back to Mao Zedong.

Gen Xu, who oversaw promotions in the People’s Liberation Army, gave part of his haul to his maid and his driver. The maid, according to law enforcement officials, used part of the proceeds to build a house. Within its walls, they said, were found boxes of illicit cash.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Nov 2014 20:38

http://www.janes.com/article/46273/russ ... s-official

Other Russian industry sources told IHS Jane's at Zhuhai that the Russian insistence on a minimum buy of 48 aircraft has since softened to a procurement of just 24 units. The issue of a minimum buy is important because Russian officials believe China is really only interested in the Su-35's NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine.

So really the Russians must be that desperate ..and how come they are able to fleece India ? And certainly in about 5 to 10 years China wont need Russia either !

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 26 Nov 2014 22:24

kit wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/46273/russ ... s-official

Other Russian industry sources told IHS Jane's at Zhuhai that the Russian insistence on a minimum buy of 48 aircraft has since softened to a procurement of just 24 units. The issue of a minimum buy is important because Russian officials believe China is really only interested in the Su-35's NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine.

So really the Russians must be that desperate ..and how come they are able to fleece India ? And certainly in about 5 to 10 years China wont need Russia either !

Because India makes it self looks desperate too.. I think one must be careful when getting into joint venture deals. Once the commitment is made then it could turn into pouring money down a sink hole if the whole program turn sour. Smaller program like missiles is OK but big budgeted deals like ships or war planes is another matter.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Nov 2014 23:51

kit wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/46273/russ ... s-official

Other Russian industry sources told IHS Jane's at Zhuhai that the Russian insistence on a minimum buy of 48 aircraft has since softened to a procurement of just 24 units. The issue of a minimum buy is important because Russian officials believe China is really only interested in the Su-35's NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine.

So really the Russians must be that desperate ..and how come they are able to fleece India ? And certainly in about 5 to 10 years China wont need Russia either !

Strategic interests. Russia has a lot of energy to sell, and china has a lot of energy to consume. Moreover, Russia wants a stable relationship on energy which it will use a counterbalance to the sanctions from the West. Crimea, and the standoff with NATO and the west just upped the leverage china has on Putin. Its 6 devisions apparently of S-400's and a few squadrons of Su-35's. Expect The S-400 to be spun off into the H-X and the Su-35 capability incorporated into their own flanker clones. With these types china is also hedging against its own developmental pitfalls. It can always order more if its own internal projects are delayed.

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Nov 2014 00:39

OT but the Russian s must be idiotic to give away their technology like that to the Chinese ..what if China uses all those against them..the Russian far east holds a wealth of minerals and it's population with a significant number of Chinese ! Putin obviously taking a gamble ...hope he doesn't take India for granted anyway !

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 00:51

The forces Putin wishes to tackle lie to the west and in Europe and North America. Moreover, by agreeing to provide a reliable energy supply he is also gaining some influence on Sino-Russian relations. Moreover, he knows that the only option for China to go out and buy something from outside is to go to Russia so he has that card as well. Ultimately, china is a rapidly growing economy with over a billion people and a defense budget that is the second highest in the world. Russia has an export oriented defense industry that even with modernization would strongly rely on exports for profits (i assume here they can charge a higher margin for exports) so all the billions count, especially when the western sanctions have resulted in the worst economic performance since Putin took office. The current Russian stock market's market cap is smaller then that of Apple alone. In fact, Bloomberg did the numbers a few weeks ago and calculated that apple's market cap covers the entire Russian stock market (all of russia's listed companies put together) with enough money to spare to buy each and every person in Russia an iPhone 6+. Added Chinese investment and a steady supply of cash will boost a commodities driven Russian economy especially as the west looks to hedge itself.

China on the other hand, has pretty much a spelled out policy of stealing and copying stuff. This is not restricted to their aerospace and defense industries. Look at the consumer electronics clones and also their automobile sector.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oader.html

China is able to get away with this and still get export versions of Russia's cutting edge technology because it has that sort of leverage. The 2nd largest economy and the 2nd largest defense spender" title gets you those privileges especially when Russian economy and Russian aerospace in particular is not going to grow westward. In the Long run Russia sees China as its allie against NATO and the US and its pacific allies in particular. Its a logical strategic alliance and quite predictable.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Nov 2014 09:15

Famous last words..we'll be seeing a Su-35S copy named J-13/17 or whatever soon after this sale goes through..with a Chinese version of the Irbis-E and the technology of the 117S engine helping development of their indigenous AL-31 alternative.

United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) president Mikhail Pogosyan told reporters at Zhuhai that there was no danger that the Su-35 would be a victim of unlicensed copying: a major concern for Russia given the unlicensed copies of the Su-27 that China began producing as the J-11 and J-15 carrier derivative.

"I believe that there is no direct danger," Pogosyan said. "It is very difficult to make a copy of a high-tech product as there is more to it than meets the eye. As of today I don't know the cases when the copy could achieve global success on the world aircraft market."

"I believe that permanent progress, permanent movement forward is the key method to fight copying. The Russian industry is not stuck - it is moving forward," he added.

from this article on Russian willingness to sell 24 Su-35S fighters to China

As the article states

Pogosyan's comment on whether a "copy could achieve global success on the world aircraft market" slightly ignores the point that China's previous reverse engineering of the Su-27 was solely for domestic consumption.

Other Russian industry sources told IHS Jane's at Zhuhai that the Russian insistence on a minimum buy of 48 aircraft has since softened to a procurement of just 24 units. The issue of a minimum buy is important because Russian officials believe China is really only interested in the Su-35's NIIP Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar and the 117S engine.

The minimum number of aircraft to be procured is, therefore, a way for Russia to ensure that the Chinese pay an appropriate price to acquire these technologies before they copy them, the sources said.

Senior East Asian officials recently told the New York Times that they believe the deal could be scuppered by these issues, but a recent factor that may expedite the sale is Russia's international isolation due to its annexation of Crimea and intervention in eastern Ukraine. In this scenario, China becomes a closer friend as Moscow distances from the West.

geopolitics is working in favour of the Chinese. Another instance of how myopic Russians are aiding the Chinese in making big leaps in technology.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Nov 2014 09:18

Irbis is as much software as hardware. 117S has breakthroughs in metallurgy. Doubt both will lend themselves to easy reverse engineering.

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Nov 2014 10:14

Sorry OT again ..but its still a matter of time that China sees Russia as weak with no technological superiority..but with a lot of natural resources and relatively unguarded frontiers .. its a given that China is Russia s natural enemy but in some ways interests converge for now . Long term it is still India that will have the capability to help Russia as it did in the past.Putin should be cognizant of this when he comes to India.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 10:50

Russia has enough deterrent to stop any Chinese aggression. Plus, as you have mentioned why would China wish to spoil the arrangement if it has a cooperating ally in Russia supplying it with energy for its growth? Russia sees Europe and the uS as a threat while China sees the pacific and the Indian border. This underlying fact is what is getting them closer as has been predicted throughout china's rise as a power. China has a consumption and manufacturing driven economy while Russia has a Commodity-driven economy. One other thing that would be worth looking at is how China goes to the Middle eastern nations for energy.

China needn't copy each and every component of the Su-35. The aim for them would be to accelerate their own programs both for lower end fighters and higher end fighters. You can't reverse engineer to 100% quality for some of the components, but you can accelerate your own timelines and develop 70% solutions and rapidly produce them at high rates. They will probably order a few dozen in Round 1, a few dozen for a follow up and then that would be it. They will then announce in a few years a new upgraded variant of their earlier flanker clone..Its a numbers game for them, given they are aiming to hold a quantitative edge. Same applies with the S-400 system, they already have an ABM system in development and S300's in operation with its clone being marketed in the international market. Soon an S-400 based system would be up as well. They have a clear strategy here and there is a well established pattern of copying. They are also not short on money and do not fear doing 10 things at a time (for good or bad).

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 27 Nov 2014 11:30

On a side note - China does not see anything wrong or illegal with copying. In their minds (and I kind of agree), gunpowder and paper 'technology' was copied by Europeans without paying any kind of royalty or hesitation when China was the leading world power. They learnt and out innovated the Chinese to later subdue them.

Just because roles have now reversed with old innovators now copying to play catch up - does not mean copying is BAD or ILLEGAL. It just shows that China is not subscribing foolishly to an anglo-saxon 'crooked' farce of righteousness for maintaining their lead. China wants to recover it's worlds largest economy and power position and will do whatever it takes to get there as fast as it can - just like the european powers did in their hey days.

In simple terms - if we had subscribed to drug patents and rules, almost all of us would have never been able to afford medicines and likely would not have been born in the first place.

Best to think twice before denouncing Chinese copying plays - thier stealth aircrafts shows that they are on track of out innovating Russians today and soon America.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Nov 2014 12:19

brar_w wrote:Russia has enough deterrent to stop any Chinese aggression. Plus, as you have mentioned why would China wish to spoil the arrangement if it has a cooperating ally in Russia supplying it with energy for its growth? Russia sees Europe and the uS as a threat while China sees the pacific and the Indian border. This underlying fact is what is getting them closer as has been predicted throughout china's rise as a power. China has a consumption and manufacturing driven economy while Russia has a Commodity-driven economy. One other thing that would be worth looking at is how China goes to the Middle eastern nations for energy.

Russia does not see Europe as a threat and neither is Europe a single nation , Most europeans have their own views.

And infact Europe was not even interested in Sanctioning Russia as they are the largest trading partner and any sanction impact Europe as much it does for Russia reason why Europe is moving towards recession and business facing the impact.

Infact Joe Biden recently boasted that they had to arm twist Europe into sanction coz US has nothing to loose in this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDRBzk0lTVY

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Nov 2014 12:47

nik wrote:On a side note - China does not see anything wrong or illegal with copying. In their minds (and I kind of agree), gunpowder and paper 'technology' was copied by Europeans without paying any kind of royalty or hesitation when China was the leading world power. They learnt and out innovated the Chinese to later subdue them.

Just because roles have now reversed with old innovators now copying to play catch up - does not mean copying is BAD or ILLEGAL. It just shows that China is not subscribing foolishly to an anglo-saxon 'crooked' farce of righteousness for maintaining their lead. China wants to recover it's worlds largest economy and power position and will do whatever it takes to get there as fast as it can - just like the european powers did in their hey days.

In simple terms - if we had subscribed to drug patents and rules, almost all of us would have never been able to afford medicines and likely would not have been born in the first place.

Best to think twice before denouncing Chinese copying plays - thier stealth aircrafts shows that they are on track of out innovating Russians today and soon America.

Guess i have to agree with the copy attitude, after all Japan started off in the same manner historically.And the main idea behind the western patent regime and all sorts of agreements including the NSG , MTCR and all sorts of acronyms are just there to maintain the technological superiority of the western powers.

Besides it is a given if a country sells something to another then the other is free to copy or modify ..which the USA knows and hence the EUMA

If India doesn't it is its problem , its huge resources would fund another countries development

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Nov 2014 13:34

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 293406.cms

In China, the government has quietly increased its strategic petroleum reserves (SPR) to around 30 days' worth of imports, double the amount revealed by its official schedule, as the world's top energy consumer takes advantage of the dive in crude prices to strengthen its position in the global oil market.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Nov 2014 13:56

India is a major Oil importing nation only after China and a major source of Forex Drain.....It would be good to build a 3 Months reserve and use situation like now when Oil Prices are low to build up reserves

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 27 Nov 2014 15:19

Karan M wrote:Irbis is as much software as hardware. 117S has breakthroughs in metallurgy. Doubt both will lend themselves to easy reverse engineering.

china now has a more consolidated electronic industry base than russian. AESA now are widely used by many chinese war platforms,such as KJ2000/200 AWAC, 052c /d DDG, J16 fighter. so,PESA like irbis can not attract china as much as russians boast. only that interests china might be 117s,because engine is still the last missing sector for china.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Nov 2014 16:18

^^ IF Chinese are just interested in Engine they could directly import the 117S engine like the currently do for AL-31/J-10 program or RD-93/J-31 Program.

The current Su-35 export is direct sell with no lic production deal so Chinese will find it very difficult to copy it probably impossible to do so without lot of time effort and money ...... but Chinese can use these for their own internal aggressor program for A2A combat against their new gen fighter to hone up skills.....skill/tactic is something the Chinese pilot would lack due to lack of exposure with other Airforces in the world.....for eg the way IAF interacts with multiple AF's

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 27 Nov 2014 17:47

Austin wrote:^^ IF Chinese are just interested in Engine they could directly import the 117S engine like the currently do for AL-31/J-10 program or RD-93/J-31 Program.

The current Su-35 export is direct sell with no lic production deal so Chinese will find it very difficult to copy it probably impossible to do so without lot of time effort and money ...... but Chinese can use these for their own internal aggressor program for A2A combat against their new gen fighter to hone up skills.....skill/tactic is something the Chinese pilot would lack due to lack of exposure with other Airforces in the world.....for eg the way IAF interacts with multiple AF's

1. Russia might not be ready to sell 117s to CHina ,unless 117s is be packaged into su35.

2. if CHina were to RE Su35, CHina needn't LIC production deal at all. what CHina need might be just one su35 as scanning sample,perhaps.

in fact, after CHina scanning the sole prototype of SU33 from Urkraine, CHina succeeded in working out J15,without any file or tech assistance form Russia. J15 in fact is a upgraded Su33 with modern avionics and radar.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Nov 2014 17:50

Austin wrote:The current Su-35 export is direct sell with no lic production deal so Chinese will find it very difficult to copy it probably impossible to do so without lot of time effort and money ...... but Chinese can use these for their own internal aggressor program for A2A combat against their new gen fighter to hone up skills.....

It isn't about copying or reverse engineering. China has little interest in the aircraft itself, which is why the deal has been held up so long. The Russians have simply made the export of the 117S conditional on China also buying Su-35s. Initially 48 aircraft, now reportedly bargained down to just one regiment's worth.

Over the long term, the Chinese will want to transition entirely to WS-10 derivatives but until then the 117S/117 will be the preferred engine for the J-10 & J-11 series and more importantly, for the J-20 program.

skill/tactic is something the Chinese pilot would lack due to lack of exposure with other Airforces in the world.....for eg the way IAF interacts with multiple AF's

That's changing gradually. They've stepped up joint exercises with the PAF and RuAF, trained with the TuAF at AE 2010, and this month they have something lined up with the Thai air force. PLAAF pilots now regularly clock in 200 hours plus annually and participate in local Red Flag type large scale exercises. While they're probably far from NATO standards, its safe to say that their training is improving in leaps and bounds and the IAF's edge in terms of human resources is probably narrowing.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 27 Nov 2014 17:53

in fact, the SU35 deal now is quite like su33 deal rumored several years ago..

China wants to order several ones for scanning sample,but Russia would not sell unless the order is big enough to earn satisfying profit.

so, the deal keeps in stalement,until CHina work out alternative ones...
then the enqury from CHina is cancelled...

that is all.

in fact, the China's alternaive to 117s,WS15 is always advancing with the full support of huge fund and modern labs,while su35 deal is negociated.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 19:35

Russia does not see Europe as a threat and neither is Europe a single nation , Most europeans have their own views.

When I speak of Europe i meant westwards, and NATO in particular.

And infact Europe was not even interested in Sanctioning Russia as they are the largest trading partner and any sanction impact Europe as much it does for Russia reason why Europe is moving towards recession and business facing the impact.

Infact Joe Biden recently boasted that they had to arm twist Europe into sanction coz US has nothing to loose in this

The bottom line is that they did. The Mistrals aren't in Russia, or are they? In the end actions speak louder then intent.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 19:39

Austin wrote:^^ IF Chinese are just interested in Engine they could directly import the 117S engine like the currently do for AL-31/J-10 program or RD-93/J-31 Program.

The current Su-35 export is direct sell with no lic production deal so Chinese will find it very difficult to copy it probably impossible to do so without lot of time effort and money ...... but Chinese can use these for their own internal aggressor program for A2A combat against their new gen fighter to hone up skills.....skill/tactic is something the Chinese pilot would lack due to lack of exposure with other Airforces in the world.....for eg the way IAF interacts with multiple AF's

Why would the license produce such low volumes? Reverse engineer is not what they would most likely do on the Su-35. The Su-35 serves two purposes, it serves an hedge to its multiple fighter development and modernization program timelines. They are going to order a few dozen now, and can set up the infrastructure and logistical base for the aircraft and order more if their internal programs are delayed. Furthermore, they would want to learn from this aircraft since they have flanker clones that they would need to upgrade in the coming years to keep them relevant. Like I said earlier, I do not think they are naive enough to look to gain 100% quality from a copy. They would be more than happy to mass produce a copy that has 70% the capability.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Nov 2014 21:53

China's Anti-Stealth Radar Comes to Fruition

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Nov 2014 21:56

Russia won't sell China radar system for J-20 stealth jet: Kanwa

China Negotiating to Buy Russian S-400 Anti-Aircraft Missile Systems

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Nov 2014 22:00

brar_w wrote:When I speak of Europe i meant westwards, and NATO in particular.

Even in West its not a Uniform view , Germany and Italy have their own view , French have theirs and UK have their own. In the end its about business when sluggish Europe meets recession then its about survival

The bottom line is that they did. The Mistrals aren't in Russia, or are they? In the end actions speak louder then intent.

They did not of their own free will but US forced them and none other then Veepee says that

Mistral is more of a loss to French if it gets not delivered ,Russia will get money along with penalty money but French will loose its reputation

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Nov 2014 22:04

brar_w wrote: Why would the license produce such low volumes? Reverse engineer is not what they would most likely do on the Su-35. The Su-35 serves two purposes, it serves an hedge to its multiple fighter development and modernization program timelines. They are going to order a few dozen now, and can set up the infrastructure and logistical base for the aircraft and order more if their internal programs are delayed. Furthermore, they would want to learn from this aircraft since they have flanker clones that they would need to upgrade in the coming years to keep them relevant. Like I said earlier, I do not think they are naive enough to look to gain 100% quality from a copy. They would be more than happy to mass produce a copy that has 70% the capability.

That may happen no one has a crystal ball to see what up there specially when the Su-35 deal itself has not been signed ......to get around 24 aircraft would take around 3 years , IIRC even Rafale deal says 16 aircraft delivered in 3 years outright from France.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 22:08

^^^NRAO Lockheed and NG have combined and delivered a UHF airborne radar. UHF radars are obviously nothing new, the real deal is to integrate them with a network and have the network perform well with the UHF and X/C band radars clubbed together. The 3DELRR radar went to Raytheon that had a Gallium Nitride solution as opposed to a GaA solution proposed by Lockheed.

This was what Lockheed proposed (and by some accounts it was Raytheon and Northrop that had the best 2 of the 3 products for the competition):

This however aint the freq. as the Chinese radar because the demands were different from the program. Lockheed has however offer multiple times to build UHF radars for various programs, and no doubt they are making these things for radar ranges that are being upgraded. Currently Lockheed has delivered a brand new clean sheet UHF AESA radar for the MEADS program, that combines with the European X band AESA and the PAC-3 H2K missile. While it was planned to replace the Patriot in the US, in reality it is most likely that components of the MEADS will be used to upgrade the Patriot system, because Raytheon has done a very good job in advancing that system technologically over time and has a customer base, some of whom are willing to pay for newer technology insertion even if the US Army is not interested in bearing the lab to operational cost of some of the enhancements. The Prototype radar for the PATRIOT already fields a Gallium Nitride FCR and is a 360 degrees radar like the MEADS (one easily identifiable disadvantage of the conventional Patriot sensor), and it is more likely that the US Army just adds the Lockheed Martin UHF AESA to the existing system through upgrades. Qatar was said to be considering taking the prototype gallium nitride radar and developing it for operational usage.

Lockheed Martin UHF AESA:

That may happen no one has a crystal ball to see what up there specially when the Su-35 deal itself has not been signed ......to get around 24 aircraft would take around 3 years , IIRC even Rafale deal says 16 aircraft delivered in 3 years outright from France

Of course, that may or may not happen as anything "may or may not happen". IAF may decide to cancel the rafale deal, or the negotiations carry further and delay the timelines originally expected. PAKFA may be delayed as it matures, or it may be accelerated etc. I don't think that the Su-35 deal would fall through, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a in-depth look at china's history with working backwards to figure out what their game plan is. Of course it won't be stated in a formal fashion but those accounting for such moves (S400 and Su-35 induction by China) will definitely factor it in as a part of their analysis. Do you not think that the smart folks working on analyzing china and their military modernization would not look at the impact of the Su-35 on the overall quality of Chinese flanker_clones a decade down the road? Or the impact of the S-400 as an A2AD enhancement especially if they begin to incorporate its sensors and technologies to improve their own ABM and sensor plans for area denial?

VijayN · Post by **VijayN** » 27 Nov 2014 22:33

Austin wrote:India is a major Oil importing nation only after China and a major source of Forex Drain.....It would be good to build a 3 Months reserve and use situation like now when Oil Prices are low to build up reserves

I guess that is where India is heading to:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-0 ... india.html

The three initial depots will have a combined capacity of about 39 million barrels, equivalent to 13 days of imports, Oil Minister Dharmendra Pradhan has said. The government plans to increase that to 90 days of imports by 2020

VijayN · Post by **VijayN** » 27 Nov 2014 22:44

brar_w wrote: Reverse engineer is not what they would most likely do on the Su-35.

Ah ah, looks like the Russians seem to think otherwise

http://aviationweek.com/zhuhai-2014/rus ... u-35-order

To Russian analysts, it is perfectly obvious that China’s primary aim in seeking a batch of Sukhoi Su-35s is to copy the technology of the powerful fighters. The Russian industry has experienced this before.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Nov 2014 22:47

I know but what I was stating was that they would reverse engineer technology for their existing programs and enhance them. If you look at their strategy it seems to be of using flanker clones to make the bottom end of the force and advanced flankers (including super flankers procured from Russia) and 5th gen for the top end. Of course thats just the Aerial portion of their Area denial measures. What I was suggesting was that they need not reverse engineer the entire thing for the entire process to be a success. All they need to do is focus on a few key areas where they can enhance the quality of their existing flanker clones. That was my point.

VijayN · Post by **VijayN** » 27 Nov 2014 23:10

I get your point, at the end of the day I think panda is experimenting how to integrate/innovate with all those RE'd or stolen technologies. One reason could be, they may not have been able to access 100% of any single technology.

But, have to hand it to them. Chinese are more than anything else, slick businessmen! With no large scale ultra modern global wars happening anytime soon (minus ofcourse the biggies beating up the poor jihadies) they are making a killing in the market with cheap, look-alike copies (nothing different from how they sell all other consumer stuff). I have no doubt in my mind, the powers to be in Beijing are actually having huge LMAO days. Here is a large part of the world looking to buy great looking (perhaps not working) stuff to "protect" their border, and China steps in to fill that void cheaply with "export versions". The fools spend, the dragon walks off with the gold - to come back another day. And in the meanwhile, beefing up their own side with better things.. Win Win situation for them, all the way!!

We here, have a long way to go - in many respects.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Nov 2014 13:07

Apparently, the S-400 deal has been signed. 6 divisions worth $3 billion to be delivered to China.

____________

Via Google Translate:

Contract signed to supply China with Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems

Russia has signed a contract with China for the supply of anti-aircraft missile systems, long-range S-400 "Triumph", the sale of which has been in negotiations for a few years

Alexei Nikolsky
Vedomosti.ru
26/11/2014

The manager of one of the Russian enterprises of the military-industrial complex and a person close to the leadership of the Russian Defense Ministry told Vedomosti that at the beginning of this autumn, a contract was signed between the « Rosoboronexport "and China's Ministry of Defence for the supply of at least six battalions of anti-aircraft missile system S-400 for more than $ 3 billion. The "Rosoboronexport" representative was unavailable for comment yesterday. The press representative of the Concern PVO Almaz-Antey (developer of the S-400) declined to comment.

Negotiations on the supply of S-400 in China has been going on for several years, while in 2011, leadership of the Russian military department stated that the delivery system for export may be no earlier than 2016 - because of the need to implement a program for the supply of the Russian Armed Forces. In the spring of 2014 the newspaper Kommersant reported that President Vladimir Putin had approved the delivery of S-400 in China, and in July the head of the Russian presidential administration Sergei Ivanov said that the first foreign customer of this system would be China.

At various times interest in the long-range air defense system on the part of Saudi Arabia was reported, but the talks were suspended. On his desire to purchase such a system represents and the Department of Defense of Belarus, marketing system was conducted in Libya. S-400 was also involved, but to no avail, in the tender for the purchase of anti-aircraft missile systems armed forces of Turkey, the first in this tender victory of the Chinese anti-aircraft missile system HQ-9 made "Based on" the Russian S-300PMU-2. Later, in the autumn of 2013, Turkey abolished the results of the tender under the pressure of its partners in the North Atlantic Alliance.

Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 is designed using experience in developing anti-aircraft missile systems, long-range C-300P, one of the main buyers in foreign countries which was also People's Liberation Army. Last contract for the purchase of 15 battalions of antiaircraft missile systems S-300PMU-2 was carried out "Rosoboronexport" in 2010

Long-range systems such as the S-300P exported after the collapse of the Soviet Union and Vietnam, Algeria, Azerbaijan and Cyprus (Currently set Cypriots systems are in the armed forces of Greece) and in the presence of the Russian Armed Forces - in Kazakhstan and Belarus. The contract for the supply of S-300 to Iran was canceled for political reasons in 2010, and execution of the contract for the supply of S-300 to Syria suspended due to the civil war in this country. In Venezuela and Egypt were delivered than the S-300P systems such as S-300B, originally developed not for the defense forces of the country, and for the defense of the Ground Forces.

Despite the fact that over the past 15 years, the Chinese defense industry sharply raised its level remained segments where it has not yet been able to prove their worth, the director of the Center for Strategic conditions Ivan Konovalov . According to him, most likely this latest system, along with other modern weapons systems will be placed by the Chinese army in the south of the country in order to control the airspace over Taiwan and the disputed islands in the surrounding waters.

Vedomosti

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2014 13:52

The Russian MOD has denied the S-400 contract deal but the Su-35 and S-400 deal has been in the news for 3 years now yet no contract signed seems the deal is dragging on

http://newstwenty4seven.com/en/news/fsv ... 400-kitaju

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Nov 2014 19:32

Austin wrote:The Russian MOD has denied the S-400 contract deal but the Su-35 and S-400 deal has been in the news for 3 years now yet no contract signed seems the deal is dragging on

http://newstwenty4seven.com/en/news/fsv ... 400-kitaju

that's to be expected . It was probably part of shylocks pound of flesh given away by Putin in addition to that several hundred billions worth of oil to panda .. For India its a given that S400 technology is with china

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Nov 2014 01:27

The fact that china will be getting the S-400 is pretty much settled. Its the timing that is in question. Meanwhile they continue to refine what they had with the S300 clones.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Nov 2014 04:48

S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems like s400 usually consist of 3 main subsystems: missles,vechicles and radars.

1.CHina has quite decent radar tech already, AESA is widely used not only by all kinds of war platforms such as KJ2000/200 AWAC,052DDG,J16 fighter,but also by HQ9 AA missles.
in fact, the radar of HQ9 is almost one generation ahead of S300,while so many indian/russian boasts HQ9 is a simple copy of s300.
it is very even hard to confirm that the radar of s400 is more advanced that that of HQ9,while CHina's radar tech is advancing much faster than Russia.

2. vechicles of missle is Russia's traditional advantage against China.but CHina's auto industry is growing much faster than Russia too. so the gap is much narrowed enough too, if it still exists.
After importing the nesseary tech from Belarus,China now can massproduced missle vehicles that can match russia's ones and its new missles such DF21/DF31/41 all widely used such specially vechiles.

3. the only obvious advantages Russia still owns is "missles"...Russia's missle still has longer range than anyone else, including USA ,CHina and EU. Russia missle is still world leader,which attracts CHina.

4 BTW, the so called "Last contract for the purchase of 15 battalions of antiaircraft missile systems S-300PMU-2 was carried out "Rosoboronexport" in 2010" ...in fact, the order was signed one decade ago,but delivered in 2010.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Nov 2014 05:24

^^ Missile range is requirement dependent. You do not go out and begin to design missiles with ranges that are either not required as a program requirement or are too short to actually accomplish the mission concerned. You have a multi tier missile defense in the US, that is focused largely on missile defense given the threat. It also needs to be theater deployable which means the logistical footprint (measured in C-130 loads) is critical. Regardless, you have long range Missile defense missiles in the Standard Family, or the GBD. Then you have the theater deployable mobile systems in the THAAD, Patriot, and MEADS (now just Europe). These are different products for a different requirement. The standard missiles routinely shoot down Ballistic missile targets in space and are globally deployed. One designs a missile for the RFP one gets from the program office. When they ask for more, the OEM goes back and makes the changes. The transition this year from a PAC-3 to a PAC-3 MSE is one such example. With advanced fighters, and better tactical missiles they wanted a 50% increase in range and better performance at 30+ K Feet altitude. The missile was designed and went into full scale production earlier this year. Conversely, the Germans are thinking of adding to the MEADS an IRIS-T component for shorter range (affordability and greater saturation). Chinese and Russian engineers do it the same way. There is nothing stopping either to make longer make missiles if the requirement so exists and if effective engagements are possible at those ranges. The size and scope of the missile is also a tradeoff with cost. There is a difference between the cost of a PAC-3MSE and an NASAMS or ESSM_Land, or in fact (opposite) the THAAD (200Km for ballistic missiles). Missile performance at range also is affected by sensor and the information being fed into the missile so that it can optimize its trajectory. This was one the biggest reasons cited to keep a constant upgrade program on for deployable radars.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Nov 2014 05:34

brar_w wrote:^^ Missile range is requirement dependent. You do not go out and begin to design missiles with ranges that are either not required as a program requirement or are too short to actually accomplish the mission concerned. You have a multi tier missile defense in the US, that is focused largely on missile defense given the threat. It also needs to be theater deployable which means the logistical footprint (measured in C-130 loads) is critical. Regardless, you have long range Missile defense missiles in the Standard Family, or the GBD. Then you have the theater deployable mobile systems in the THAAD, Patriot, and MEADS (now just Europe). These are different products for a different requirement. The standard missiles routinely shoot down Ballistic missile targets in space and are globally deployed. One designs a missile for the RFP one gets from the program office. When they ask for more, the OEM goes back and makes the changes. The transition this year from a PAC-3 to a PAC-3 MSE is one such example. With advanced fighters, and better tactical missiles they wanted a 50% increase in range and better performance at 30+ K Feet altitude. The missile was designed and went into full scale production earlier this year. Conversely, the Germans are thinking of adding to the MEADS an IRIS-T component for shorter range (affordability and greater saturation). Chinese and Russian engineers do it the same way. There is nothing stopping either to make longer make missiles if the requirement so exists and if effective engagements are possible at those ranges. The size and scope of the missile is also a tradeoff with cost. There is a difference between the cost of a PAC-3MSE and an NASAMS or ESSM_Land, or in fact (opposite) the THAAD (200Km for ballistic missiles). Missile performance at range also is affected by sensor and the information being fed into the missile so that it can optimize its trajectory. This was one the biggest reasons cited to keep a constant upgrade program on for deployable radars.

RUssia can make one missle have longer range with the same size.
that means russia missle have better molbity.
other country want its missle to have the same range, they have to make missle a larger-size .

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Nov 2014 05:38

S-300PMU-2

The latest AWST has an article about how NATO practices against the S-300PMU. Understand that when the SU fell apart three units were left in countries other than Russia. The Germans returned the one that was with East Germany and the remaining two are still in use, now used by NATO.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Nov 2014 05:45

@ Liu, Can you illustrate with an example? You do realize that different developers for different Militaries design missile systems differently? Missile defense both theater and strategic is something that you design around a very specific domestic requirement. Those dynamics are different for Russia then they are for India, China or the US. For the US its a combination of systems ranging from fixed strategic missiles, to globally deployed AEGIS and SM family, and theater deployed THAAD and Patriot/MEADS batteries. As far as mobility, MEADS and the Patriot system can be deployed anywhere in the world using the standard NATO tac lifter in the C-130, with a smaller footprint on the A400. The THAAD can be deployed through the C-130 and the C17. Once deployed both are "drive away" systems and can be set up relatively quickly. The Standard missile family is deployed on AEGIS ships all around the world.

BTW, there are ways to get more range or more importantly increase the lethality within the range against a wider threat. All nations doing that practice that. For example through network centric architecture and through a radar and data link C2C modernization the missiles can get "better information" allowing them greater chances of intercepting at longer ranges. Furthermore, you can play around with the motor and the propellent. If however you desire a totally different performance such as much improved performance over a threshold altitude against a threat that itself has grown from the last time you designed the missile and something like a 50% grater range you have to allow for size growth in the missile. Here even the SU and the Russians have different missiles for their systems.

he Germans returned the one that was with East Germany and the remaining two are still in use, now used by NATO.

Sean O Connor has done a great job in documenting the S-300 elements that are currently deployed on US radar ranges. I have posted them on one of the threads (I think either the JSF turkey thread or the international aerospace thread)

Edit: Here is one such report and analysis from my bookmarks. Over the years I have read a few more by him on the internet (not sure if he had links to his blog on them)

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html