Indian Military Helicopters

[Viv S]

Mr. Raju said, "The Light Combat Helicopter Technology Demonstrator TD-3 made its maiden flight in November last year and the TD-4 is likely to fly soon. The IOC [initial operational clearance] is expected in the later part of this year. To achieve this we are concentrating on building more prototypes and increasing the number of flights to reduce the lead time.”

Any other details available on that? I thought the TD-4 was supposed to be the final prototype. Even if the IOC is shifted to next year, its a fantastic achievement (one that probably won't be well received at Boeing's headquarters). Hopefully the MoD will delay the Apache deal just long enough for the LCH to arrive. It can then junk the whole acquisition without worrying about media recrimination.

[JTull]

Viv S, even if this govt. dumps Apache purchase there aren't going to be any media recriminations except from the well known leaks from the services themselves or the foreign vendors. The only recrimination likely to be is the uselessness of LCH. Govt has to be brave if it is really serious about Make in India.

That said, I'm not so opposed to Apache as we'll have lot to learn about equipment and tactics from a formidable equipment which has seen extensive action. That learning curve will go into improving LCH further even though it is a lighter aircraft. I personally do not think that IA will get it's own Apaches later as LCH would be see FOC before the end of tenure of this govt.

[John]

Even if the IOC is shifted to next year, its a fantastic achievement (one that probably won't be well received at Boeing's headquarters). Hopefully the MoD will delay the Apache deal just long enough for the LCH to arrive. It can then junk the whole acquisition without worrying about media recrimination.

Apache with Longbow greatly enhance LCH with its network centric capabilities when they are deployed together in strike missions' . So i don't benefit of not going ahead with procurement.

[Viv S]

Viv S, even if this govt. dumps Apache purchase there aren't going to be any media recriminations except from the well known leaks from the services themselves or the foreign vendors. The only recrimination likely to be is the uselessness of LCH. Govt has to be brave if it is really serious about Make in India.

It is the ex-serviceman lobby I'm worried about. Well... and the soon-to-join-the-'employed ex-serviceman' lobby as well.

That said, I'm not so opposed to Apache as we'll have lot to learn about equipment and tactics from a formidable equipment which has seen extensive action. That learning curve will go into improving LCH further even though it is a lighter aircraft. I personally do not think that IA will get it's own Apaches later as LCH would be see FOC before the end of tenure of this govt.

Apache with Longbow greatly enhance LCH with its network centric capabilities when they are deployed together in strike missions' . So i don't benefit of not going ahead with procurement.

That wasn't intended as an indictment of the Apache. I'd be the first to admit that the AH-64E is the best aircraft of its kind while still offering fairly decent value for money. Question is, do we want to spend $1.4 billion (let alone three times that amount) on what is despite its many strength primarily an anti-vehicle platform?

Is its edge over the LCH worth that investment, especially considering the generally decrepit state of the PA (save for 600 odd mid-tech T-80s & Al-Khalids and a handful of Crotale systems)?

And even more so considering the already abundant investment we've made into tackling them including but not limited to T-90s, Arjuns, Milans, Spikes, Mi-25/35s, Rudras as well as fixed wing aircraft equipped with LDPs, CBU-105 SFWs and the like.

I'd imagine there are better ways to spend all that money, not the least of which is higher numbers of the LCH itself.

[Cosmo_R]

...
That wasn't intended as an indictment of the Apache. I'd be the first to admit that the AH-64E is the best aircraft of its kind while still offering fairly decent value for money. Question is, do we want to spend $1.4 billion (let alone three times that amount) on what is despite its many strength primarily an anti-vehicle platform?

Is its edge over the LCH worth that investment, especially considering the generally decrepit state of the PA (save for 600 odd mid-tech T-80s & Al-Khalids and a handful of Crotale systems)?

And even more so considering the already abundant investment we've made into tackling them including but not limited to T-90s, Arjuns, Milans, Spikes, Mi-25/35s, Rudras as well as fixed wing aircraft equipped with LDPs, CBU-105 SFWs and the like.

I'd imagine there are better ways to spend all that money, not the least of which is higher numbers of the LCH itself.

+1. The Chinooks are another story though and we need them along with C-17s.

[srin]

Even if the IOC is shifted to next year, its a fantastic achievement (one that probably won't be well received at Boeing's headquarters). Hopefully the MoD will delay the Apache deal just long enough for the LCH to arrive. It can then junk the whole acquisition without worrying about media recrimination.

Apache with Longbow greatly enhance LCH with its network centric capabilities when they are deployed together in strike missions' . So i don't benefit of not going ahead with procurement.

Not all the Apaches we're buying have Longbow. So - I guess we can prune the order ?

Given the time this procurement has taken, we could have MKI'ized Mi-28N and had it in production by now.

[KumarA]

Even if the IOC is shifted to next year, its a fantastic achievement (one that probably won't be well received at Boeing's headquarters). Hopefully the MoD will delay the Apache deal just long enough for the LCH to arrive. It can then junk the whole acquisition without worrying about media recrimination.

Apache with Longbow greatly enhance LCH with its network centric capabilities when they are deployed together in strike missions' . So i don't benefit of not going ahead with procurement.

It doesn't seem likely that Indian government will sign three foundational agreements (CISMOA, BECA and LSA) with America in near future. There is massive pressure from Americans but rightly so, I don't see any willingness in India towards capitulating in this regard. That makes me wonder as to how it will impact Apache Attack Helo purchase? There are many classified communication technologies in the helicopter which will have to be removed before it is sent and thereafter, how much of its capabilities will be affected? Also, why is the Indian purchase invariably costlier than the ones being purchased by other countries?

Finally, which Air Force of a major power has attack helicopters in its inventory? The traditional understanding is that its the Army Avaition which acquires, integrates and uses rotary wing items. They need attack helos for close integration with armoured columns. So why is Indian Air Force so eager to grab these attack helicopters? Indian Air Force has heaps of helicopters which it should have given to Army Aviation long ago. Why so much resistance?

[nikhil_p]

A question - What advantage does a longbow equipped Apache have in the deserts of Rajasthan (considering this will be the major tank battlefield) as compared to an LCH using a UAV (Sky Eagle/Netra/Nishant) providing over the horizon ability with HeliNa providing the LOAL capability.

[Neilz]

Some Awesome pics of TD2 in Himalaya

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/ ... rough.html

[brar_w]

It doesn't seem likely that Indian government will sign three foundational agreements (CISMOA, BECA and LSA) with America in near future. There is massive pressure from Americans but rightly so, I don't see any willingness in India towards capitulating in this regard. That makes me wonder as to how it will impact Apache Attack Helo purchase? There are many classified communication technologies in the helicopter which will have to be removed before it is sent and thereafter, how much of its capabilities will be affected? Also, why is the Indian purchase invariably costlier than the ones being purchased by other countries?

Finally, which Air Force of a major power has attack helicopters in its inventory? The traditional understanding is that its the Army Avaition which acquires, integrates and uses rotary wing items. They need attack helos for close integration with armoured columns. So why is Indian Air Force so eager to grab these attack helicopters? Indian Air Force has heaps of helicopters which it should have given to Army Aviation long ago. Why so much resistance?

Once it comes down to the component level, there will likely remain a very few components that cannot be sourced from a third party (Israel for example) to work around this issue. That all would have happened prior to the selection and during the negotiations for the deal. Its a technical issue which would have been dealt with at that time.

A question - What advantage does a longbow equipped Apache have in the deserts of Rajasthan (considering this will be the major tank battlefield) as compared to an LCH using a UAV (Sky Eagle/Netra/Nishant) providing over the horizon ability with HeliNa providing the LOAL capability.

Has the LCH demonstrated that capability? Currently the Longbow is good to go to pass on targets to other helicopters that operate with it, and also control UAV's both using their sensors for stand off attack and to have them orbit areas of interest while it does other missions.

The capability of the longbow and the advantages it brings have been discussed many times in the past, the search feature should provide you with a couple of videos I posted a few months ago.

[John]

Is its edge over the LCH worth that investment, especially considering the generally decrepit state of the PA (save for 600 odd mid-tech T-80s & Al-Khalids and a handful of Crotale systems)?

I do agree with you the $$ is too high and there are high priorities like towed and self propelled artillery. But the # purchased will greatily complement LCH and are more valuable than buying more LCH. Why? IMO apache procurement is more china specific given the large no of SHORAD system they operate and with newer WZ-10 starting to sport FCR as well.

[nikhil_p]

Once it comes down to the component level, there will likely remain a very few components that cannot be sourced from a third party (Israel for example) to work around this issue. That all would have happened prior to the selection and during the negotiations for the deal. Its a technical issue which would have been dealt with at that time.

A question - What advantage does a longbow equipped Apache have in the deserts of Rajasthan (considering this will be the major tank battlefield) as compared to an LCH using a UAV (Sky Eagle/Netra/Nishant) providing over the horizon ability with HeliNa providing the LOAL capability.

Has the LCH demonstrated that capability? Currently the Longbow is good to go to pass on targets to other helicopters that operate with it, and also control UAV's both using their sensors for stand off attack and to have them orbit areas of interest while it does other missions.

The capability of the longbow and the advantages it brings have been discussed many times in the past, the search feature should provide you with a couple of videos I posted a few months ago.

Brar Saab, allow me to explain my thought process here. Sorry for the shoot and scoot question earlier.

Yes - the LCH has yet to demonstrate this capability, however the pieces of the puzzle do exist (Datalink, Micro/mini/MALE UAV, HeliNa - on test). It is a matter of putting it together. The advantages are multiple, I will come to that in a bit.

The LongBow is a MMW radar which allows the Helo to hide behind an obstacle do a quick scan with the radar to identify targets and emitters, which the superwiz system then processes before the Apache launches Hellphyers at the target and gets away, none the wiser. So basically the LongBow in this config enables it to have effective 'over the horizon' shoot capability, limited only by the range of the HellPhyr which IIRC is about 7 klicks.

In addition to that, it then brings to the table the other question, will our whole purchase of 22 be LB versions? If not - then it basically is a data-linking (TFTA Name networked) solution where the Apache will act as a swarm led by the LB equipped Apache.

Now in Rajasthan (the way I saw it), I didn't see many 'hiding' spots in the open plains. Maybe in Punjab, yes.

Coming to the point of using UAV's, can we have a loitering MALE/HALE UAV provide real time 'over the horizon' targeting information to either the Apache/ Rudra/ LCH which can then use LOAL type missiles (HeliNa, HellPhyr, etc.) This allows the helo's to remain hidden for a lot longer whilst also giving a longer range of view.

Another advantage of the LCH is its commonality with other types (Dhruv) that are targetted for use.

The only place I think the Apache might make sense is because it might help in the Cheen theater. However I am not sure how effective it will be in the high passes, whereas the LCH is being designed with high alt ops in mind.

JMT - I read through the past pages - didnt find this answer, maybe didnt search hard enough

[KrishnaK]

Finally, which Air Force of a major power has attack helicopters in its inventory?

The IAF intends to use the apaches for SEAD/DEAD.

[tsarkar]

In my opinion, the Mi-25/35 can soldier on supplemented by Rudras for the few years required to get the LCH in squadron service. There is no glaring necessity for the Apache.

Same goes for light helicopters. Dhurv, Cheetals & Chetans can hold fort until LUH enters service. The RFP is so delayed that the LUH should enter service by the time protracted negotiations complete and licensed assembly starts.

[Indranil]

I agree. I don't think that we need the Apaches. Especially in this hour of limited budgetary allocations. The IAF can use elsewhere, say more C-17s or C-130s. I hope it is not a case of, if we don't get them now, the Army will get them.

The need for the LUHs is more acute. But, a tender will be floated in months, then a decision will be taken in 1-2 years. The deal will be signed in 1-2 after that. Then desi production line will be set be set up. Then production will start. This is will at least take 6-7 years even if the tender is floated today. In roughly the same time HAL should be able to start building 60 LUHs per year. However, the tender is a good move to have a backup option should HAL fail. Also it will keep HAL on its tows. Every year it delays, it loses an order for 60 helis.

[NRao]

I hope it is not a case of, if we don't get them now, the Army will get them.

The army is supposed to get them irrespective, I thought.

[dinesha]

TD-3 @ AeroIndia 2015 pics by Photoyogi
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8qc7k/i-wDwPwJh/A
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8qc7k/i-7nCV6vt/A

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> Now in Rajasthan (the way I saw it), I didn't see many 'hiding' spots in the open plains. Maybe in Punjab, yes. <SNIP>

Hiding is not always in terms of a physical feature; it will also happen due to the horizon effect. Plus, the benefit in terms of staying out of effective range of your opponents anti-aircraft weapons. A gunship can approach the fire-zone of its main ATGM flying very low, pop-up to scan the horizon, work out a firing solution, fire the missile (which are F&F these days) and again melt away. Also, in case of Apache, I think the Hellfire comes with lofted attack profile as well.

The only place I think the Apache might make sense is because it might help in the Cheen theater. However I am not sure how effective it will be in the high passes, whereas the LCH is being designed with high alt ops in mind.

Vivek_Ahuja had done some fantastic analysis on the engine power-payload-altitude thing many moons ago; IIRC, as per the analysis, LCH outperforms Apache in high-altitude areas.

[rkhanna]

The Battle of Najaf has structured and refined Tactics of the Apache in the US Military. It makes for a most impressive read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Najaf_%282003%29

Despite the failure of the first Mission the one glaring thing is that while ALL 32 Helos in the assault were badly damaged ALL but one made it back to base. IMO The Apache's better survivability against brute force make it better equipped to be operational on our Western Border. The LCH agility and smaller size can play hide and seek in the mountains.

The Apache's can also be a Big Force Multiplier for Amphibious Forces if need be.

[Picklu]

TD-3 @ AeroIndia 2015 pics by Photoyogi
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8qc7k/i-wDwPwJh/A
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-8qc7k/i-7nCV6vt/A

TD3 is by far the best colour scheme.

[shiv]

<SNIP> Now in Rajasthan (the way I saw it), I didn't see many 'hiding' spots in the open plains. Maybe in Punjab, yes. <SNIP>

Hiding is not always in terms of a physical feature; it will also happen due to the horizon effect.

True. Sand dunes and undulating terrain serves the same purpose.

[Shreeman]

quote="nikhil_p"<SNIP> Now in Rajasthan (the way I saw it), I didn't see many 'hiding' spots in the open plains. Maybe in Punjab, yes. <SNIP>/quote

Hiding is not always in terms of a physical feature; it will also happen due to the horizon effect.

True. Sand dunes and undulating terrain serves the same purpose.

shiv,

The dunes I have seen in Rajasthan could envelop a helicopter if winds became unfavorable. No dust protector is going to protect anything. And the temperatures become bazillion degrees in this global warming age.

All this fancy stuff is fine and dandy in its air conditioned hangers, but I doubt they will do any better than T90s when push comes to shove. Hiding in unstable dunes is probably not going to be a good idea for any helicopter.

Lastly, I just dont see the longewala type tank races any more. Where will the bakis go and what will they do in sparsely populated rajasthan? They are likely to make effort where there will be visibility, or impact. And that is punjab and farther north. Especially given their lack of endurance which is only going to become worse in the future.

This approach of buy a dozen and control UAVs with them has to go. There is worse DDMitis in this board today than ever before. Control UAVs? For what purpose? Are you lacking operators or will the apache drivers be twiddling thumbs? Everthing comes with an operational strategy. That is drilled into the grunts. By the time apaches come, and get integrated and become operational the world would have moved on to the next buzz word.

The problem is china. And you need sufficient quantity as well as relatively modern quality. This apache business is another MQ9 Raven. Wont make a dent in the requirements. But it will be nice for parades and shows.

[Singha]

>> The Apache's can also be a Big Force Multiplier for Amphibious Forces if need be.

you cannot deploy the vanilla apache onto a LPHD ships . britain has put them onto such ships but had to add/change some gear like the blind navigation systems, liferafts, radio beacons needed for seaward ops and salt water corrosion protections etc. likewise the french gazelle helis seen in libya I dont know if they made such changes or just bulled their way through for short duration.

[hnair]

Shreeman, "controlling UAVs" might mean having the choice of slewing/mode-change a UAV sensor or firing a weapon remotely, when the situation demands.

Else, controlling (as in piloting) a dozen UAVs is like tethering a dozen large german shepherd doggies onto a Luna moped and going by a cat-lady's house. Things will get too exciting, without a reason

[Singha]

^^ imo it might just mean retasking the UAV to certain interesting location and setting speed and height, not directly piloting it...like the global hawk with much higher automation than reapers the uav will have to take into account terrain maps , known threats, new threat feeds from the network and passive sensors and go to this location via optimal path.

this is however best done from a dedicated platform like EMB145 JSTARS type platform with a few dedicated consoles and stable long duration flying.

at best a fighter can get inflight SAR imagery, LLTV snapshots and such from UAVs further ahead to get awareness of target area....even video is a tough call

[shaun]

What is the need of such costly imports when we have a parallel program / product ?? Apaches were meant to replace the 2 odd squadrons of Hinds , but hinds have one unique capability ,as a flying APC. Data Link features will come up with LCH too .

[Shreeman]

^^ imo it might just mean retasking the UAV to certain interesting location and setting speed and height, not directly piloting it...like the global hawk with much higher automation than reapers the uav will have to take into account terrain maps , known threats, new threat feeds from the network and passive sensors and go to this location via optimal path.

this is however best done from a dedicated platform like EMB145 JSTARS type platform with a few dedicated consoles and stable long duration flying.

at best a fighter can get inflight SAR imagery, LLTV snapshots and such from UAVs further ahead to get awareness of target area....even video is a tough call

I have a hard time even considering a convolute use case for a platform with <10km offensive range for its weapons. Or that such cases should be a top priority.

The other side of the coin, a quid pro quo, parade show piece, US agenda, somebody's bank account etc all look far less conspiratorial by comparison.

These platforms are all razor/blade strategies. Every disposable is going to be PITA. Then availability concerns will arise.

If you cant build the disposables (dont even plan to), then you arent using it in a war. Even a kargil type war. Ask the US to build roads, or canals, or whatever civil works --- if you need to really pay back for something. 22 toys arent filling any need.

[Mihir]

Apache with Longbow greatly enhance LCH with its network centric capabilities when they are deployed together in strike missions' . So i don't benefit of not going ahead with procurement.

It doesn't seem likely that Indian government will sign three foundational agreements (CISMOA, BECA and LSA) with America in near future. There is massive pressure from Americans but rightly so, I don't see any willingness in India towards capitulating in this regard. That makes me wonder as to how it will impact Apache Attack Helo purchase? There are many classified communication technologies in the helicopter which will have to be removed before it is sent and thereafter, how much of its capabilities will be affected? Also, why is the Indian purchase invariably costlier than the ones being purchased by other countries?

Boeing integrated the BEL Data Link II with the P-8I. There's no reason they won't do it with the Apache as well.

[Austin]

LCH at AeroIndia 2015 ( Pictures )

http://saidpvo.livejournal.com/380603.html

[Singha]

the Rustom-1 UAV was spotted flying today at 8am along the ORR and Sarjapur road. I thought UAVs were not allowed to fly over cities in india and ADE was using their kolar aerodrome for testing.

fairly ugly looking piece of work with the canard foreplanes and quite noisy as well.

is it going to remain a testbed or be productionsed and inducted with a useful payload ?

[Indranil]

I find the Long EZ very soothing to the eye

[Picklu]

^^ True dat. The Rutan LZ really looks like some thing out of original star wars trilogy. But it is noisy though.

[Gagan]

the Rustom-1 UAV was spotted flying today at 8am along the ORR and Sarjapur road. I thought UAVs were not allowed to fly over cities in india and ADE was using their kolar aerodrome for testing.

fairly ugly looking piece of work with the canard foreplanes and quite noisy as well.

is it going to remain a testbed or be productionsed and inducted with a useful payload ?

They use Hosur for this. Formerly that airstrip was in use by Taneja aerospace industries

[Singha]

since it was a completed product to start with, what has been done in the few years it has been flying?

I did not see any payload bulges.

[vivek_ahuja]

The only place I think the Apache might make sense is because it might help in the Cheen theater. However I am not sure how effective it will be in the high passes, whereas the LCH is being designed with high alt ops in mind.

Vivek_Ahuja had done some fantastic analysis on the engine power-payload-altitude thing many moons ago; IIRC, as per the analysis, LCH outperforms Apache in high-altitude areas.

Here's the performance charts that Rohit is referring to regarding the LCH versus Apache:



That and other plots posted to my blog here: The Beta Coefficient

Rohitvats,

Seems like we go through this discussion cyclically on this thread regarding the high-altitude benefits of american helicopters vis-a-viz Indian ones.

I wonder if we can include these plots somewhere on the first page of this thread as a reference link? Something like the links we have for the Pakistani thread in the Strat Forum?

-Vivek

[hnair]

Long EZ seem like linux of the aeroworld. You can tinker around with that forgiving design a bit and Burt-sahib wont mind. IIRC, a wide range of technology testing, from pulse-detonation to electric propulsion, gets tried in this one. Forgiving airframe with

R-1 seem to be DRDO's first attempts at n-LOS control of a UAV and hence seem like a tech demonstrator.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>
Rohitvats,

Seems like we go through this discussion cyclically on this thread regarding the high-altitude benefits of american helicopters vis-a-viz Indian ones.

I wonder if we can include these plots somewhere on the first page of this thread as a reference link? Something like the links we have for the Pakistani thread in the Strat Forum?

-Vivek

Good idea, Sir.

A request to you: Could you please mine your posts on the subject (because you actually did this exercise for multiple platforms) and share with me? Will put this as a compendium in the beginning of this thread.

[Indranil]

Vivek Ahuja sir,

Could you please plug in the numbers for LUH vis-a-vis the other contenders of the LOH contests i.e. Bell 407GT, AS550 C3 and Ka-226-T2? It will be very useful.

[vivek_ahuja]

A request to you: Could you please mine your posts on the subject (because you actually did this exercise for multiple platforms) and share with me? Will put this as a compendium in the beginning of this thread.

Will do. So I did the original work in 2007 timeframe. I have updated plots now because I improved the modeling last year. I will put together all of the new plots and send them to you to put up. What's your preference on that: should I compile all of it into a set of articles with some analysis or just give you the raw performance plots to put up to help foster the discussions here?

Could you please plug in the numbers for LUH vis-a-vis the other contenders of the LOH contests i.e. Bell 407GT, AS550 C3 and Ka-226-T2? It will be very useful.

Good idea! Yes, I will do that. Give me a day or so to put the plots together.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

Okay, so here is a cry for help:

I was plugging in the numbers for the LUH competitors and noticed that I can't seem to locate a good source for the empty mass of the Ka-226. I have the overall mass possible (~3600 kg) and the overall payload possible (~1200 kg) from here: Clicky

Wikipedia numbers for this bird seem to be all over the place.

But a crude approximation of (maximum mass - maximum payload) for the Ka-226 gives me 2400 kg. I presume we have about 300 kg of crew + ~400 kg of fuel in there, so about ~1700 kg.

Compare this with the empty masses of the other contenders: LUH (1675 kg), AS-550 (1220 kg) and Bell-407 (1210 kg). As a result, the Ka-226 performance is below the others when comparing hover, out of ground effect, for a max payload of 1000 kg:



Since its pretty late here at my end, I am going to sleep. I am hoping some of the late-night sleuths or the BRFites in the states etc. can help find some realistic numbers for the empty weight of the Russian bird...

Cheers!

-Vivek