Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 May 2011 17:16

Kaveri K 9 engine passes eleven flight tests for about 20 hours duration

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 02 May 2011 17:37

wow,
good news for desi MIL Industry complex

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 May 2011 18:26

It would be so hard for Snecma-GTRE to beat GE-414, and its advancements.

unless, we sit and take a written guarantee from IAF, that freezes its scope on thrust.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 02 May 2011 21:06

we for sure get both ventures going..
kavery mk2 as well as kaveri-snecma
that will reduce the risk.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 May 2011 21:53

well.. do you have a link to confirm what you are saying? i.e., both programs will be funded?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 May 2011 03:05

SaiK wrote:well.. do you have a link to confirm what you are saying? i.e., both programs will be funded?

Try this from Jan, 2011. It does not explicitly state it, but since both projects have a green light, they have got to be funded.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 May 2011 11:46

I will pray for the sucess of the K9 so that it sees service with the late model Tejas Mk2 and Mk3, along with the chosen MMRCA, when it comes on line.

Will · Post by **Will** » 03 May 2011 11:59

Me thinks the GOI should have two engine projects going. One PSU and one Private. Both should be funded by the government.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 03 May 2011 13:00

Will wrote:Me thinks the GOI should have two engine projects going. One PSU and one Private. Both should be funded by the government.

there is no private sector company from india which have the expertise to build a turbofan engine.companies like mahindra and godrej have taken baby steps in the field of designing and building small aircrafts but none have shown interest engine design,obviosuly due to the risk involved.best hope is for GTRE to get K9 up and running (not to bother if its a generation behind or anything as quoted by eurojet officials) and then get necessary tech from snecma from its eco for k10 to make it close to 9.5:1 or 10:1 power to weight engine.

Will · Post by **Will** » 03 May 2011 13:55

ranjithnath wrote:
Will wrote:Me thinks the GOI should have two engine projects going. One PSU and one Private. Both should be funded by the government.
there is no private sector company from india which have the expertise to build a turbofan engine.companies like mahindra and godrej have taken baby steps in the field of designing and building small aircrafts but none have shown interest engine design,obviosuly due to the risk involved.best hope is for GTRE to get K9 up and running (not to bother if its a generation behind or anything as quoted by eurojet officials) and then get necessary tech from snecma from its eco for k10 to make it close to 9.5:1 or 10:1 power to weight engine.

Well thats the whole point. That expertise has to be developed. No one will be willing to take the risks in the private sector unless the govt funds and mitagates the risks.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 03 May 2011 15:30

Can anyone please tell me what are the next tests to be done as the FTB test is done ?
What steps are remaining for the integration in PV1/2 ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 May 2011 17:03

It would be awesome if they fund K9-K10 without any joint venture actually.. However, technology inputs are welcome rather changing the kabini core to snecma ECO core, and that kabini core continuing to worked up to match M88-4 or ECO/TCO standards must be done.

60 flight tests are planned with grumov, and after that it would be ported to LCA PVs.. It has to repeat the same tests, and start moving towards high speed tests exceeding/ upto Mach 1.8 besides, endurance test once in flight re-fueler once attached to LCA.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 03 May 2011 18:24

SaiK wrote:...

It has to repeat the same tests, and start moving towards high speed tests exceeding/ upto Mach 1.8 besides, endurance test once in flight re-fueler once attached to LCA.

How do we go to Mach 1.8 on a IL-76

Or will we see the Kaveri integrated onto another a/c?

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 03 May 2011 19:57

akimalik wrote:
SaiK wrote:...

It has to repeat the same tests, and start moving towards high speed tests exceeding/ upto Mach 1.8 besides, endurance test once in flight re-fueler once attached to LCA.
How do we go to Mach 1.8 on a IL-76
Or will we see the Kaveri integrated onto another a/c?

Read again what Saik wrote. The high speed tests will be on LCA-PV.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2011 20:17

akimalik wrote: How do we go to Mach 1.8 on a IL-76
Or will we see the Kaveri integrated onto another a/c?

Even if the plane were to go at Mach 1.8 - the engine cannot accept a supersonic airflow. So it will be getting subsonic airflow onlee.

About 50 hours of testing will be needed. Looks like we have had 20 hours from November to April . It will go on for a few more months. I believe the Russians are very meticulous and the 20 successful hours is good news, The engines have actually been run on the ground for thousands of hours. These flying tests will really put them through their paces.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 May 2011 21:01

One good thing to note is that the trials have been held during nov-march possibly the coldest times in Russia. So our engine does well in freezing conditions good. Btw since there are 4 engine slots can two be used for test and two be occupied by the ps-90s

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 May 2011 21:08

I would imagine they want 3 engines normal and not have to deal with 'issues' like one new engine on each wing and worse both engines on one side as new and they run wild

easier to control one wild horse than two.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 May 2011 21:17

Will wrote:Me thinks the GOI should have two engine projects going. One PSU and one Private. Both should be funded by the government.

Quite agree! High time to set up a pvt player to provide competition. Also, there should be a long-term plan to privatise HAL.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 May 2011 23:30

chackojoseph wrote:Kaveri K 9 engine passes eleven flight tests for about 20 hours duration

IMO, Kaveri K-9 is a "technology demonstrator" (TD) which will take the development to its completion. This includes R&D, ground runs, aircraft integration and flight tests. This is necessary for the development of future variants of Kaveri ... specifically K-11, which will have further development inputs from Kaveri K-10--a hybrid of K-9 tech and M-88ECO core.

One alternative scenario: the development efforts on the K-11 can take place in parallel to the K-10 Hybrid. Kaveri K-11 could focus on the development of an indigenous "M-88ECO" core equivalent and thus reduce dependencies on this key aero engine tech.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 May 2011 23:50

^^^ and for god's sake GTRE should document all the info they get. The candidates who have brought the engine this far will now be enticed with very good offers by GE and others. After all you may have 1000 engineers across the world with hands-on experience on design/development/testing/validation of turbofan engines, and our engineers would be ripe targets for GE and others

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 May 2011 01:29

exactly the reason why we need to treat GTRE like private institution when it comes to brain drain,and double up the salary for these niche guys.

I wish Snecma venture is pure only on consulting and not on ECO core being used for any kaveri version.. That is a wasteful exercise that serves only in integration expertise.. what we need to snecma consulting (more like what P&W offered us).. and not replace kabini core.

It is important that this strategic niche experience is gained all homegrown in the first place. It is okay if it is hard or it comes late.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 04 May 2011 12:01

A noob quesiton -

K9 >> Kabini core
K10 >> Snecma M88 core
What is K11?

Speaking of Snecma - any updates on the JV?

Will · Post by **Will** » 04 May 2011 13:53

SaiK wrote: I wish Snecma venture is pure only on consulting and not on ECO core being used for any kaveri version.. That is a wasteful exercise that serves only in integration expertise.. what we need to snecma consulting (more like what P&W offered us).. and not replace kabini core.

Thought one of the reasons that P&W was turned down was cause they demanded the IPR for the Kaveri.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 May 2011 20:09

they wanted IPR shared or get a hold of it for their subsequent use. I am sure they would pay the royalty or expense, but why would we give it out?

On the same note, why would Snecma give it out or GE/P&W give it out? This is the reason, we need to keep it clean especially on this precision engineering piece. It is something to boast about and we all can walk equal among France, Russian and the Khans. Even the chinese have not done it!.

It is important to have K clean!.. and imagine the respect we get out of it! LCA can go exports will full zoom without any niche external dependency.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 19 May 2011 23:00

Kaveri completes first phase of FTB tests for 20 hr. Milestone achieved successively-----> DRDO news letter.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 May 2011 08:30

edit - self

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 May 2011 08:45

It must be strauss-kahn's fault emboldening desi kaaps.

It is all his private life, who cares. I'd still keep a pickle next to me, whenever we hear police arrest in desh. what value addition it brings to this thread would be a high priority question.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 May 2011 06:43

Moved to Nukkad - 61 Thread

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 May 2011 07:14

^^^ this has nothing to do with Kaveri, please post it in nukkad

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 15:45

Tomorrow, the truth about K-10.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2011 16:54

^^
Eagerly waiting for it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2011 17:15

Woh subah kabhi to ayagi jab K9/10. will power the LCA in large numbers and form the back bone of the IAF fighter fleet.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2011 17:28

Pratyush wrote:Woh subah kabhi to ayagi jab K9/10. will power the LCA in large numbers and form the back bone of the IAF fighter fleet.

Not before MLU for Tejas. For IAF as a whole, that will happen only with AMCA.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 May 2011 09:32

DRDO creates GATET project for advanced gas turbine engine research

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 May 2011 09:41

Tainted GTRE director transferred

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Monday transferred Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) Director, T Mohan Rao, to CEMILAC, another Bangalore-based DRDO institution, for conducting a ''free and fair investigation'' about his involvement in a prostitute racket.

A high-level committee, headed by one of the DRDO chief controllers, will probe into all aspects of the allegation, DRDO sources told Deccan Herald.

The decision was taken by the DRDO Director-General and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister V K Saraswat based on the report submitted by an internal investigation team, led by DRDO vigilance director Ajay Gupta.

While Rao has been transferred with immediate effect, his position at GTRE would be taken over by one of the DRDO Chief Controllers A Subhanand Rao, who till recently was the director of High Energy Materials Research Laboratory, Pune.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 May 2011 11:50

chackojoseph wrote:DRDO creates GATET project for advanced gas turbine engine research

K9 is the one being integrated on the test bed at Gromov.
Is k10 the one with Snecma core?

Added later: Yes it is.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 May 2011 12:26

No Kabini Core. Snecma Core is not going to be used.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 24 May 2011 12:32

Then what is the collab with Snecma about?

Added later: Ok. So it is the SCBs we are after.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 May 2011 12:34

chackojoseph wrote:No Kabini Core. Snecma Core is not going to be used.

Thanks CJ. Apparently no one refuted the post in the previous page.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 May 2011 12:45

Kaveri engine dosen't has a problem per say except a particular area in the core. The materials are not able to withstand heat and have weight. So the K-10 will have Kabini core being modified for heat handling. DRDO is proposing to buy off the technologies and help in adapting it to the Kabini core.

DRDO wants to learn from this. K-10 will have heat areas (like SC blades) attended to in Kabini as well as weight management. Thrust will be increased.

So, DRDO will learn, engine will be produced and Snecma will get its share of the money.