Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2015 19:17

I have not understood the canard and droopy nose issue for a RWR in Su 30 MKI. OK if an antenna is mounted on a tailfin yes it will be blind to signals from below and in front. But what about secondary and tertiary antennae in other areas - maybe below the fuselage or near wingtips?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2015 19:54

Near wingtips you will have EMI/EMC issues. Thats where the jammers are. Two different systems from different suppliers. The plan was to fit 6 new antenna as versus standard 4. Looks like even that didnt work out. I suspect the new plan will be to have wingtip mounted radar warning jamming combos integrated into one unit.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2015 19:56

Zynda wrote:Whats interesting is that Malaysian Su-30s carry South African (Saab Avitronics) based MAWS. There are two possible scenarios. S African based MAWS are superior (in terms of miniaturisation) compared to Israeli ones and thus were acceptable or Malaysian Su-30s have MAWS with performance penalties.

The Indian MAWS are dual color to offer lower false alarm launch signals.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jan 2016 19:38

MKM/MKI Model made by Ken ( via keypubs )

I had to scratch-build them on my Su-30MKM model....... the MAWS is in a multi-facetted 'turret' on the upper spine, behind the airbrake...

.... and on the underside in front of the nosewheel bay....

Note also the forward-facing LWS-310 next to the MAWS - the rear-facing ones are on the intake sides.

The finished model.......

.... next to its Indian cousin.....

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 01 Feb 2016 09:40

150th Su-30MKI assembled by HAL was handed over to IAF

http://en.take-off.ru/news/108-nov2012/ ... er-to-iaf-

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2016 09:53

its time for a 360' comprehensive EW kit based along the lines of the MKM but using newer kits.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Feb 2016 10:09

KBDagha wrote:150th Su-30MKI assembled by HAL was handed over to IAF

http://en.take-off.ru/news/108-nov2012/ ... er-to-iaf-

Boss this was 13 months ago, anther 20 should have joined by now

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 01 Feb 2016 14:40

212 nos Su 30 have been produced till now and rest 60 will be produced by 2019.

Seeing the delay in FGFA till 2025 SJha has said that upto 80nos more Su30 can be expected.

Su 30 production will be extended by 5years to get additional 80nos for a total number of 352nos

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Feb 2016 00:12

PM Modi has brought a paradigm shift in defence - Make in India an imperative- Sudhir Mishra

BrahMos missile will be test-fired from Sukhoi 30MKI fighter aircraft very soon. Tell us the significance of this integration...

The launch of BrahMos missile from Su-30MKI comprises several phases. BrahMos is a very heavy missile and such class of missiles has never been integrated with Su-30MKI. Structural modifications have been carried out in the aircraft to integrate BrahMos on to it. This task was completed on the first Su-30MKI aircraft by HAL Nashik, and the mod ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Feb 2016 07:21

BrahMos missile will be test-fired from Sukhoi 30MKI fighter aircraft very soon.

I swear this must be some attempt at Goebbelsgiri - say the same thing enough of times and it becomes true. I've heard of this B'mos integration with MKI for over a decade..."soon", "very soon", "in a year" "within xyz time period" blah blah - alas is there no accountability to the making of such statements.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Feb 2016 17:32

I think that we should scrap both Rafale and PAKFA plans and go in for "additional" 200 Su-30MKI + 200 LCA to manufactured between 2020 to 2035. While working towards LCA Mark-3, AMCA, UCAVs during this period. This will also enable deep indigenisation.

Problem is that we seem to take bribes to import stuff while the Chinese bribe others to get technology to make the stuff themselves.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2016 17:49

I hope you didn't post that after seeing Austin's models?

you are right.. we should take ownership of Su30 assembly lines.

we have tremendous potential to make it skins stealthier. we have models and research being done there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Feb 2016 10:39

Rebound To Russia: Amid Rafale Impasse, IAF To Buy 40 More Sukhois
http://armingindia.com/Rebound%20To%20R ... ukhois.htm

NEW DELHI, FEB. 10, 2016: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has initiated the procurement of a fresh lot of 40 additional Su-30MKI air dominance fighters at an estimated $75 million apiece, reliable diplomatic sources disclosed to Arming India.The procurement is being taken up as a follow-on order to the 222 Su-30MKI fighters already contracted to be made under transfer of technology at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)'s Nasik division.Along with the initial 50 aircraft acquired in a flyaway condition from Russia in the late 1990s, the latest increment of 40 aircraft will take the total number of Su-30MKIs ordered for the IAF to 312.This is a significant development running concurrently with the rapid headway in India-Russia talks on finalizing an agreement on an Indian commitment to the futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Arming India had on Feb. 3, 2016 exclusively reported a $3.7 billion deal-in-the-works for India's contribution to the development costs of the FGFA, and a further commitment to buy a minimum of 60 of these fighters.

The rebound to Russia takes places amidst a continuing impasse in Indo-French price negotiations for the import of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft for the IAF.Observers also see these developments as a consequence of a determined rearguard action by Russia to protect its turf and reinforce its pre-eminence in the Indian defense aerospace market. Russia's traditional dominance in the Indian market has sought to have been challenged by the U.S., Israel and Europe in the last decade-and-a-half.The reliance on the Sukhois extends the life of the Su-30MKI assembly line in Nasik by another decade. An estimated 175 of the 222 Su-30 MKIs contracted to be assembled in India are reported to have already been rolled out. The roll-out rate is between 10 and 12 aircraft a year. Post the Sukhois, the Russian complex at HAL will be kept alive with the licensed manufacture of the FGFA.Interestingly, India and Russia are set to sign a deal for faster delivery of Sukhoi spares for the IAF. The Economic Times had reported in early December 2015, quoting Sukhoi Managing Director Valery V. Chishchevoy, that an Indian delegation was to deliberate on the spares supply deal later that month and the contract for the same would be signed at the earliest.
The Sukhoi resurgence and the FGFA inroads will directly impact on the market for the Rafale in India, keen observers of defense trade reckon. Although the initial negotiations are for only 36 Rafale jets for the IAF, France is already pursuing a detailed roadmap to notch up sales even beyond the original Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) number of 126 and also pitch the Rafale for the Indian Navy, sources inform Arming India. The Russian jets, clearly, stand in the way of these plans.What is hard for a resource-strapped Indian defense establishment to ignore is that the Rafale is, reportedly, two-and-a-half times more expensive than the Rafale. The cost of 40 follow-on Sukhois to the Indian exchequer is about $3 billion, as against the reported $7 billion to $8 billion for the 36 Rafales.However, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has made it clear on more than a couple of occasions that Sukhois aren't a replacement for the MMRCA, under which Rafale is the chosen one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2016 11:06

makes sense and much deeper local make of spares already, with more base infra to share. so capex will be far cheaper than setting up a new tfta base exclusively for the rafales where "dogs , indians, dust, flies, sukhois and migs are not allowed"

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Feb 2016 19:27

^ With a condition .... will buy additional planes only if we can make all components and spare parts locally without any raw material import restriction from Russian.

member_28397 · Post by **member_28397** » 10 Feb 2016 22:07

looks like PAK FA is cutting lose now, LCA in Rafale out.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Feb 2016 22:18

The French have nobody to blame but their greed. But they wont be crying. Egypt etc orders compensate.

But they made good monkeys out of India - MOD, IAF, HAL all of them. MOD for getting locked into a process which is single vendor onlee after claiming MMRCA was to avoid single vendor, IAF which went to town on how MMRCA process was best in world, most comprehensive and once Dassault got it known it won that, it used it adroitly to swing its other deals WW. We are the best, Indians chose us and this time around we were up against AESA equipped F/A-18, EF etc, F-16. If that is not enough, even after the problems emerge, IAF CAS keeps saying no Plan B onlee, giving more ammo to Dassault.

Then HAL which goes into the deal and came out with its image even more tarnished when Dassault played up reports it would take Reliance over HAL and sudden leaks emerged about HAL being bleh, of course, it has nothing to do with French firms protesting over TOT to India and desire to spread out CKD/SKD to max extent. HAL sat with its thumb in the mouth and didn't even say anything. IIRC they even shut down or downscaled their PR department. Even their coffee table books etc are for who knows, since they are rarely available apparently to the average person. Poor resolution pics in Annual Reports and glowing statements of some employee winning an award in poetry festival are more easy to find.

All in all Dassault ne maha ullu banaya India ke mahan hastiyon ko. But jai ho, UPA's last gift to India on this scale.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 10 Feb 2016 22:59

Karan M wrote:The French have nobody to blame but their greed. But they wont be crying. Egypt etc orders compensate.

But they made good monkeys out of India - MOD, IAF, HAL all of them. MOD for getting locked into a process which is single vendor onlee after claiming MMRCA was to avoid single vendor, IAF which went to town on how MMRCA process was best in world, most comprehensive and once Dassault got it known it won that, it used it adroitly to swing its other deals WW. We are the best, Indians chose us and this time around we were up against AESA equipped F/A-18, EF etc, F-16. If that is not enough, even after the problems emerge, IAF CAS keeps saying no Plan B onlee, giving more ammo to Dassault.

Then HAL which goes into the deal and came out with its image even more tarnished when Dassault played up reports it would take Reliance over HAL and sudden leaks emerged about HAL being bleh, of course, it has nothing to do with French firms protesting over TOT to India and desire to spread out CKD/SKD to max extent. HAL sat with its thumb in the mouth and didn't even say anything. IIRC they even shut down or downscaled their PR department. Even their coffee table books etc are for who knows, since they are rarely available apparently to the average person. Poor resolution pics in Annual Reports and glowing statements of some employee winning an award in poetry festival are more easy to find.

All in all Dassault ne maha ullu banaya India ke mahan hastiyon ko. But jai ho, UPA's last gift to India on this scale.

expect some bitter, bitter articles and hai hai if/when the rafale deal breathes its antim saans.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Feb 2016 03:03

quite scary to read if that is the UPA's last gift on this scale. i hope they don't return for a higher scale then!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2016 03:06

KaranM, At the end French didn't want to deal.
And they coined the phrase "Perfidious Albion!"

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Feb 2016 03:14

A passing thought. Supposedly HAL has a 'deep ToT license' whatever that means. If that is the case why can't they take the initiative and upgrade the MKI incrementally as Boeing has done with with 'Silent Eagle' and SH. Incremental stealth, improved engines etc. as a stop gap to AMCA.

Do they have the capability? If so, why order more of same from Irkutsk?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2016 03:43

Cosmo_R wrote:A passing thought. Supposedly HAL has a 'deep ToT license' whatever that means. If that is the case why can't they take the initiative and upgrade the MKI incrementally as Boeing has done with with 'Silent Eagle' and SH. Incremental stealth, improved engines etc. as a stop gap to AMCA.

Do they have the capability? If so, why order more of same from Irkutsk?

I vaguely recall that the Su 30 has some 36,000 separate components - which is an interesting statistic because I cannot name 36.000 separate objects of any kind. I am certain that India does not have production lines to manufacture all these and some small components would have been bought off the shelf from pre-existing Russian "small-scale" industries by Irkutsk. Ordering more Sukhois means placing an order for more components of these types from those industries. It probably does not make economic sense to set up separate manufacturing lines for all those parts in India

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2016 03:46

Jhujar wrote:Rebound To Russia: Amid Rafale Impasse, IAF To Buy 40 More Sukhois
http://armingindia.com/Rebound%20To%20R ... ukhois.htm
/quote]

Frankly I don't believe the headline. That is, I do not believe that the order for 40 more is specifically because of the delay or cost of the Rafale deal.

Such a story would be typical of the Russian sponsored press and their own presstitutes - like "India may manufacture F/A 18s" was a report of American sponsored presstitutes

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Feb 2016 04:30

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:A passing thought. Supposedly HAL has a 'deep ToT license' whatever that means. If that is the case why can't they take the initiative and upgrade the MKI incrementally as Boeing has done with with 'Silent Eagle' and SH. Incremental stealth, improved engines etc. as a stop gap to AMCA.

Do they have the capability? If so, why order more of same from Irkutsk?
I vaguely recall that the Su 30 has some 36,000 separate components - which is an interesting statistic because I cannot name 36.000 separate objects of any kind. I am certain that India does not have production lines to manufacture all these and some small components would have been bought off the shelf from pre-existing Russian "small-scale" industries by Irkutsk. Ordering more Sukhois means placing an order for more components of these types from those industries. It probably does not make economic sense to set up separate manufacturing lines for all those parts in India

Agreed.

So what does the SU 30MKI 'deep ToT license' mean? CKD kits SKDs? and what would HAL have 'learned' other than knowledge of how to assemble components. This BTW is probably why labor costs are higher—tracking those 36K components, testing them and certifying them, rejecting and demanding replacements etc—with suppliers who don't see us as their clients and the components take 6 months to reach us.

So why do we want to pay 'ToT' rates for this? Incidentally, the purported 'Make in India' bs by Boeing for their SH line in India also falls into the same category. There's no way we can replicate their supply chain either but we could pay them more for the a/c because we think we have 'ToT' by agreeing to a second 'line' in India.

IMVVVVHO, the problem is a cultural one: we are primed from birth to believe there is a miraculous (read low effort/serendipity) way to do everything that those doltish thick headed white guys don't know. We are SDRE clever and we can intuitively overcome laws of physics, finance and manufacturing—simultaneously, in real time and on a TV show (with music).

As a result, we have epic fails on a (Monty) Pythonesque scale. Kolaveri time.

If I were King, I'd spend most of the deterrent monies to get all sorts of missiles (Agnis, nirbhay MK2, K4, K-15s and SSGNs) while trying to figure out how to churn out 100s of LCAs (MK 1,2,3) and get the AMCA built around engines that work and at least 25% component commonality with the LCA.

Else just lease the F-16/H/JSF under FMS on a flyaway/outsourced basis for the stop gap.

JMT

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Feb 2016 12:10

Whatever happened to the Super-30 concept? Are the new ones going to be current version or will be the upgraded version with new radar and all.

Will this also mean the number of Su-30s that will be bhramos will now be closer to 82 versus the earlier 42? That would make a big difference to the two war front scenario tasking.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 13:01

Seems the new 40 will be Super MKI as the cost of Indian developed Sukhoi per mod is ~ $60 million at $75 Million it would be updated version

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 13:18

shiv wrote:I vaguely recall that the Su 30 has some 36,000 separate components - which is an interesting statistic because I cannot name 36.000 separate objects of any kind. I am certain that India does not have production lines to manufacture all these and some small components would have been bought off the shelf from pre-existing Russian "small-scale" industries by Irkutsk. Ordering more Sukhois means placing an order for more components of these types from those industries. It probably does not make economic sense to set up separate manufacturing lines for all those parts in India

Shiv , This Interview posted earlierby HAL a bit old but gives Idea what MKI TOT is about

viewtopic.php?t=4042&p=1598184#p1587933

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2016 13:25

more than super30 we need upgrade to ECM/EW on all MKI to MKM std and Bars++ with tech ported from Irbis with a final config being Irbis-E or whatever is going into Pakfa.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 14:09

I dont see IAF is pushing Hardware upgrade for MKI with any urgency as most of the kits are good and BARS are getting upgraded at SW level. they would probably bring the older MKI Mk1,2 to latest Mk3 standard as priority.

Doing smaller stuff like integrating Glide Weapon or Lightening 5 kit , Indian EW Pod/MAWS stuff , Brahmos etc is going on at regular pace. The Big ticket item like replacing BARS , MAWS stuff , integrating more weapons etc might take place only after 2018-20 period. May be IAF will just opt for AESA Radar instead of Hybrid IRBIS with more powerful engine.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Feb 2016 15:33

Can the IAF do anything to reduce its radar signature? Any design changes like SIlent Eagle atleast to protect those exposed Jet engine blades?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 16:15

They can apply RAM to reduce the RCS which I think they did , HAl has mentioned in interview to F magazine that they have done work on reducing RCS of MKI

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Feb 2016 00:54

If ever there was proof required that the IAF really flogged the 18 Su-30Ks that formed the nucleus of its Sukhoi force, here it is..from a neutral third party so no one can ever question it

Belarus to receive Su-30SM fighters

..

Earlier, Belarus acquired 18 ex-Indian air force Su-30Ks as part of a complex deal that involved Russia, India and Belarus. India accepted a Russian offer to trade all the Su-30Ks that were delivered in 1997-1999 for 12 new Su-30MKIs, so that the Indian air force could standardize on that version. Subsequently, the used Su-30Ks went from India to Belarus. After a thorough inspection and overhaul at Baranovichi, some saw brief service with the Belarus air force before being sold back to Russia for subsequent delivery to Angola.

On condition of anonymity, a source in the Russian military industrial complex told AIN that the thorough inspection of the used Su-30Ks shortly after their withdrawal from the Indian service revealed that Indian pilots had overstressed them. The airframes had some residual deformation of the load-bearing structure. This necessitated expensive repair work that the industry could perform, but the Belarus defense ministry could not afford. In addition, Belarus modernized some of its MiG-29 fleet before finding that, too, an excessively expensive project...

so they pulled more than 9Gs on these fighters it appears.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Feb 2016 16:41

Austin wrote:They can apply RAM to reduce the RCS which I think they did , HAl has mentioned in interview to F magazine that they have done work on reducing RCS of MKI

Can you quote the details

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Feb 2016 17:38

Agree with some of the posters on time for India to invest heavily into the super-MKI MLU:

Sensors -> AESA (L-band and X-band), IRST, HMS
ECCM -> "SPECTRA"-type of integrated electronic warfare suite (long-range detection, identification and accurate localisation of RF/IR/Laser threats and their countermeasures, such as decoys and jamming)
New Cockpit -> better data fusion
Weapons -> new Long-ranged AAMs and AGMs/PGMs (multi-strike single pass)
RCS/Signature reduction and airframe improvements -> engine blade masking, RAM coating, more composites
Life-cycle management improvements -> localization of more parts and Performance Based Logistics (PBL)

Anything else?

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 Feb 2016 07:01

X Posted from the Indian Military Aviation thread.

India likely to acquire 164 Litening 5 targetting pods and an unspecified number of Spice 250 standoff glide bombs to equip the Su-30 MKI fleet from Israel:

Rafael anticipates Litening, Spice deal with India

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Feb 2016 09:00

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2016 14:54

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... envoy.html

Kadakin said an agreement is also being worked out for making spare parts of Sukhoi aircraft in India. Besides, Russia will soon open at least four service centres in India for the Su-30 MKI jets to help resolve the maintenance issues of the plane. As of now Hindustan Aeronautic Limited (HAL) runs the only overhauling facility for the Sukhois in India. India has about 200 Su-30 MKI jets. Kadakin said an agreement for service centre is being finalised and will be announced soon.

Interestingly, India’s shopping list has a lot of Make in India component in it. “Our Defence relationship is completely in tune with Make in India Sukhoi spare parts will be made in India. Besides, India and Russia have already concluded a deal for Kamov Ka-226 helicopters. Russia will help India produce 200 of these machines through HAL,” Kadakin said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2016 14:55

The 4 service centers would be based at 4 keycommands of the IAF ?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Feb 2016 16:28

19 years in-service before IAF wakes up to this need for service centres.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2016 17:30

Considering they would operate MKI for next 30-35 yrs , its case of better late then never