CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Mar 2010 14:25

Apart from 3-4 guys in camo uniforms, all others look like locals of that area only. I've never seen a green AK before.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Apr 2010 02:09

Guns fall silent after 7-day battle in Rajouri ends

If my math is correct - from March 23 onwards, the pig jannat count is as follows:

Rajouri: 16
Kupwara: 8
Kishtwar: 2

Total: 26 pigs eliminated in the last 10 days. 6 brave jawans lost - RIP.

Major, major success!!

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 03 Apr 2010 06:10

There seems to be a move to dilute/ replace the armed forces special powers act. This is what PC has said according to news reports. This is likely to have a negative bearing on CT/COIN. Any dilution will mean that the blanket legal immunity armed forces enjoy currently in CT/COIN areas will be compromised. This will tie their hands up. CT/COIN operations should not come under any civilian scrutiny except at the highest level. This is the only safeguard the forces have against "human rights" organizations.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 03 Apr 2010 18:36

Prem Kumar wrote:Guns fall silent after 7-day battle in Rajouri ends

If my math is correct - from March 23 onwards, the pig jannat count is as follows:

Rajouri: 16
Kupwara: 8
Kishtwar: 2

Total: 26 pigs eliminated in the last 10 days. 6 brave jawans lost - RIP.

Major, major success!!

Yes. TFTA pigs being killed left and right! Soon, there won't be any space in pig jannat!

R.I.P. brave jawans!

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 04 Apr 2010 01:25

Photo essay on the Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College in Kanker

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Apr 2010 01:39

Ameet wrote:Photo essay on the Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College in Kanker

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx

Umm.. the link's not working.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 04 Apr 2010 03:24

Viv S wrote:
Ameet wrote:Photo essay on the Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College in Kanker

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx
Umm.. the link's not working.

That's the link, but it seems to be bad. Best to go to the main site www.caravanmagazine.in and find it from there, its on the front page.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 04 Apr 2010 10:26

Ameet wrote:Photo essay on the Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College in Kanker

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx

This is CTJW, different from CIJWS in Mizoram, right? Hearing about this for the first time.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Apr 2010 12:52

atreya wrote:
Ameet wrote:Photo essay on the Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College in Kanker

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx
This is CTJW, different from CIJWS in Mizoram, right? Hearing about this for the first time.

This is the school which has been set up to train paramilitaries and police in guerilla tactics - it is not an IA school. It has been there for some time now.

CIJWS is ofcourse an IA school. Brig. Ponwar who is currently heading CTJWC used to head CIJWS prior to his retirement.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 04 Apr 2010 13:59

This is the school which has been set up to train paramilitaries and police in guerilla tactics - it is not an IA school. It has been there for some time now.

CIJWS is ofcourse an IA school. Brig. Ponwar who is currently heading CTJWC used to head CIJWS prior to his retirement.

That's what I was wondering. I remember seeing Brig. Ponwar's name in an article of CIJWS. Anyway, is there a third jungle warfare training school in Kaziranga? Wiki mentions it, though there is scarce mention of it elsewhere.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Apr 2010 14:05

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Photo_EssayNew.aspx

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Apr 2010 14:19

Army foils infiltration bid along LoC, two militants killed

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Apr 2010 15:30

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/10apr04/news.htm#4

JAMMU, Apr 3: Absence of guides and complete lack of local support is reported to have contributed a lot in eliminating 16 dreaded Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militants, 15 of whom were Pakistanis, in Rajouri district within a week. The militants were "very well motivated, trained and hardcore’’ which was evident that they fought with security forces and police for several hours before being killed. Five Army jawans attained martyrdom while killing the ultras and a SHO was among the injured.

At least dozen slain militants were commanders, who had to take over command of the dwindling cadre of the LeT outfit in different areas.

....

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Apr 2010 16:53

I would say it is the biggest success of this year in COIN ops,.
But one thing is to be noted that isi will surely send another batch of such commanders to fill the place,if not then it would risk its position in the valley
It might give another opportunity for CT forces , just track the on foot tourists ..

I wish best of luck and even greater success to IA CT forces on all fronts

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 04 Apr 2010 23:19

Prem Kumar wrote:Guns fall silent after 7-day battle in Rajouri ends

If my math is correct - from March 23 onwards, the pig jannat count is as follows:

Rajouri: 16
Kupwara: 8
Kishtwar: 2

Total: 26 pigs eliminated in the last 10 days. 6 brave jawans lost - RIP.

Major, major success!!

The loss of 6 brave jawans is too high. Just unable to enjoy the rest of the news of 23 pigs flying to their destiny along with our losses. Rest In Peace departed ones.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Apr 2010 23:56

Do the current Bullet proof jackets with RR sustain hits by an AK-47

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Apr 2010 00:00

oh boy here we go again

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 05 Apr 2010 00:16

^Which is the latest model of BPJ shown on Military channel?

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Apr 2010 08:47

VikB wrote: The loss of 6 brave jawans is too high. Just unable to enjoy the rest of the news of 23 pigs flying to their destiny along with our losses. Rest In Peace departed ones.

Completely agree. Somehow, unable to enjoy the news of 26 meeting their 72 because of the loss of 6 of our men.

However, at least its better than the last time when we had a huge group of "hardened pigs" come over when we lost 9-10 1-SF men ( which means lessons have been learned). That was truly a dark day indeed.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 05 Apr 2010 12:05

moreover reports said that most of the fresh pigs killed were LET commanders who have recived atleast 2 to 3 yeras of hardened training at camps which makes them commandoes. so killing them was harder but 6 is still a huge number. i think the BPJ they use arent good enough if they use any at all. There are often so pics with many have no BPJ. It is so hard to get BPJS for our all army?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Apr 2010 12:00

Terrible news coming in. RIP jawans.

20 killed as Maoists ambush CRPF team
RAIPUR: At least 20 CRPF personnel were killed in an attack by Naxalites in Dantewada district of Chhattisgarh early on Tuesday.

The attack took place when a CRPF patrol party was returning from a road opening duty in the naxalite-infested Mukrana forest in the district between 6 to 7 am.

"We have rushed helicopters to evacuate the casualties," Chhattisgarh Director General of Police Viswa Ranjan told PTI.

The death toll in the attack may rise as many of the personnel have been seriously injured.
The CRPF patrol party was totally taken aback by the Maoists who surfaced at a hillock to carry out the attack.

A chopper has been sent from Jagdalpur, headquarters of Bastar district, to move the injured troopers to hospital. A strong contingent of state police force has also been rushed to the site.

"It seems to be a meticulously planned attack. The guerrillas first blew up the CRPF bunker and then opened indiscriminate fire," Bastar Inspector General of Police T.J. Longkumer said.

Chhattisgarh's mineral rich Bastar region spread out in about 40,000 sq km is made up of five districts - Bijapur, Kanker, Narayanpur, Bastar and Dantewada.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 06 Apr 2010 12:17

There is a massive (understandably so ) difference between the training and preparation levels of Para-military forces vis-a-vis Rashtriya Rifels and this is showing in a very regretteble way. If not officially then I certainly hope that in some capacity we are utilizing the extensive knowledge of RR in COIN ops. The threat of Naxals is as big if not bigger than the jihadis.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Apr 2010 13:06

News Update.
70 killed as Maoists ambush CRPF team

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 13:10

damn 70?????

sad day, a very sad sad day, i think we need to bomb those naxals, kill every single one of them. This atrotious. no more mercy, want to see kishenji's head on a platter.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 06 Apr 2010 13:39

This is most shocking !

What prevents us in using AIR power and CRUSH the naxals 100 % ? Remembr Punjab, KPS Gill's Strategy? Simple ! CRUSH THEM WITH IRON HJANDS ! IMMEDIATELY install mechanisms for improving co ordination between the Govt& support forces and prevent such ambushes ! Give them modern arms & ammunitians and massive GROUND & AIR support and eliminate them ! Then start with goodies to common man to win support and maintain peace.

I see repeated statements from Govt / politicians even our Army chief saying, ARMED FORCE will NOT be used against naxals!! Why the hell it can NOT be used ? after all the tax payers money is spent on them to protect Indians ! Are CRPF jawans NOT Indians ??? Whom are we trying to fool here ? our selfs ? Let us keep politics apart from this. Hit NAXALS on their head and crush with massive military power !!

RIP for the Brave jawans !

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Apr 2010 13:53

Prabu wrote:This is most shocking ! What prevents us in using AIR power and CRUSH the naxals 100 % ? Remembr Punjab, KPS Gill's Strategy? Simple ! CRUSH THEM WITH IRON HJANDS ! IMMEDIATELY install mechanisms for improving co ordination between the Govt& support forces and prevent such ambushes ! Give them modern arms & ammunitians and massive GROUND & AIR support and eliminate them ! Then start with goodies to common man to win support and maintain peace.

I see repeated statements from Govt / politicians even our Army chief saying, ARMED FORCE will NOT be used against naxals!! Why the hell it can NOT be used ? after all the tax payers money is spent on them to protect Indians ! Are CRPF jawans NOT Indians ??? Whom are we trying to fool here ? our selfs ? Let us keep politics apart from this. Hit NAXALS on their head and crush with massive military power !!

RIP for the Brave jawans !

I can understand your sentiments. I feel the same mixture of sentiments ranging from shock, rage to sadness like you. Bet lets get some perspective here.
The problems with use of air power have beem discussed to death in these forums numerous times. So I will not repeat all the same points again. But in one word, the reason is collateral damage. This is the reason that air power is not used in Kashmir.

And as for not using IA against naxalites. This is as it should be. This is not the job of IA. In fact, CT ops in Kashmir and ne are not the jobs of IA either. However, as there is no hope whatsoever of CPOs to to contain these problems on their own, IA is engaged in such operations. And already it has been streatched thin. Officers and jawans are hardly able to see their families for years. This leads to severe frustration as we can see from the cases of suicides and fratricides. The way forward is to adequately train and equip the local police and the CPOs to combat these problems and not to thrust each and every problem on the already overburdened shoulders of IA. The IA is already stretched thin enough.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 14:12

given the precarious nature of road links in the region and the ability of naxals to
concentrate in ambush areas of their choosing after blocking roads/bridges to prevent quick reinforcement I think only a small fleet of WSI-Dhruvs could restore some confidence in the security forces that should they come under heavy attack, then in almost all weather/day-night conditions help can reach them in around 1 hour.

all this hu-ha "reinforcements and high officials rushed to spot" means 12 hrs later a strong force clears the IEDs and road locks and reclaims the dead bodies.

"loss of face" in using helis against our "own misguided boys" -vs- letting dozens of security men die callously and risking a collapse in morale. morale cannot be
good with 300+ KIA in last few months

WSI-dhruv with chin cannon, thermals, door mounted 2xMMG with 3000rds of ammo each and no rocket pods (to prevent collateral damage) should be able to saturate an area with gunfire and atleast salvage people stuck in dire situation
or repel the massed attacks by 100s of naxals we sometimes see like gaya recently.

and its fast enough to be centrally located in one place at each state and reach
out in 1 hr if staffed and serviced properly.

far better use of WSI-dhruv than exercises in pokhran for a war that is unlikely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 14:15

collateral damage - it is unlikely as the ambushes always take place is isolated
areas of forest roads.

nobody is saying spray gunfire into villages but mostly whoever is loitering in the forest near such an ambush is a bad guy. the good guy would run and hide to avoid
the crossfire.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 06 Apr 2010 15:03

Singha saar,CPO's don't have any Dhruv WSI's.The IAF has clearly ruled out using air power against Indian nationals and rightly justified.
IMO all CI units including COBRA must be pressed into one place at one time to achieve results,I think the MHA is dragging its feet on this & continues to hope for 'talks'.

All experts have pointed out that money can with this war,spread moolah among locals and gain intelligence which is utmost important at this stage.Besides strategic air borne extrication of naxal political leaders using BSF choppers will hurt their pride & prompt a miscalculated move which can be advantageous to the establishment.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Apr 2010 15:21

^^
I am not too convinced with this view. In Kashmir, there are severe disadvantages of using heavy firepower (artillery or airborne). These have been much discussed so I would not go into them.
However, if there are situations in Naxal infected areas where air power can be used, I do not see any reason why we should hold back. Why can we use bullets from AKs against our own people but not bullets from IAF's WSI Dhruv? After all, the person on the receiving end is dead, no matter the source. And all this talk about using air power hurting pride of security forces? I am not able to understand the rationale behind it. Also, even if it does, I do not think it would do more harm to pride and morale than 70 causalities.

The only understandable reason I can get against not using air power against naxals is collateral damage (or thick jungles from which it is difficult to get line of sight from helicopters). However, if there are cases where that is not a issue, I do not see any problem with using air power.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 15:33

clearly ruled out using air power against Indian nationals and rightly justified.

by what measure are these people indian citizens? dont we have the death penalty? doesnt the police beat up criminals routinely?

run around creating mayhem and killing people and all citizenship priviledges
stand withdrawn.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Apr 2010 15:34

All these casualties would be acceptable had the security forces been clocking regular successes (= dead maoists) as well. We don't hear too much about that. Ofcourse that may be because that side's never publicized (except when we arrest a high profile leader). The Greyhounds performed splendidly without too much media attention. I sincerely hope that's the case here as well.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 06 Apr 2010 15:39

As an outsider it doesn't make big difference to us whether IAF is involved.It is the apolitical characteristic the Armed Forces wants to maintain as tomorrow it could be used for an internal operation which could be drastic.Moreover it affects the morale of the jawans.We have to see the long term repercussions.

Internal Security is clearly the Central/State problem and something of this magnitude has to be dealt by a central force and beyond jurisdiction.PC is uselessly running around WB trading charges with the CM.Air operations should only be used for intel collection and to monitor naxal movement.Keeping in mind that this attack took place just after dawn,if choppers with thermal imaging and night vision were being used to clear the roads for safe passage none of this would have possibly happened.Besides troop movement is also a massive challenge as no transport aircraft are pressed into service(this is where the IAF can come in).The MoD can surely lend their drones to spy on Naxal movement to the CRPF.

Singha Saar unfortunately for all legal purposes they are Indian nationals! you can't proclaim they are not on the basis of their actions.If that be the case then every criminal is a state-less citizen.We are then singing the Porki tune.Remember this is not just a law enforcement operation but a political one.You can't kill Communism(Mao) by wiping them off,its and ideology and will continue for decades unless there are distractions in form of development and employment put in place.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 06 Apr 2010 15:44

Maoists have totally militarised themselves

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/apr/ ... rh-dgp.htm

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Apr 2010 15:48

By ruling out the use of air power,sophisticated weaponry,self defence equipments like in army, reconnaissance systems of IAF,we are neglecting the remaining advantage they have in those areas and simply costing more lives of these poor jawans,

PC is sending them into death traps again and again

He was seen over defensive when some CPI leaders and tv channels accused him of using army against Indian nationals(naxals).. Nobody asked this fool ,he thinks how enemy( maoists) will differentiate between army and/or CRPF personnel,or whether they even want to differentiate?

I dont think he is the right man, neither his ministry which is leading these operations ,is fit for these types of roles. If we have businessmen guiding govt from top to bottom,not everything can be solved !!

Even someone like DhonI will do a better job ,but not these politicians , because they simply dont know how to do things straight ..

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Apr 2010 15:52

A former intelligence officer, with 23 years of experience in dealing with the Maoists, Vishwa Ranjan considers the Constitution as one of his ideals and believes the Naxals will be defeated in 3 to 5 years in his state.

Another fool

his experience says that he cant do this,certainly not in another 2 decades,..people like these are responsible for these huge ...casualties , means they are doing something utterly wrong ...

About 40 to 45 per cent of Bastar is still with the police, where the police and administration is present. There is another 30 per cent that we dominate, but we will not say that they can't come and disturb you, they can. The rest 30 per cent, is dominated by them but we can enter and hit them like Abujmarh (a densely forested area in Bastar).

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Maois ... PC/600156/

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 06 Apr 2010 16:16

till the basic amenties roti kapda makan and bijli sadak pani remains elusive to the locals of these minerally wealthy but highly exploited states - no amount of bravery, high tech weaponary or use of force will bring normalcy.

irony is these states are the wealthiest with respect to natural resources, minerals etc but highly neglected and the most backward.

the policy of last 63 years are same as earlier adopted by the angrez - exploit the resources and dont give back anything in return.

how long these states will remain such backward with respect to basic transportation, infrastructure, basic education, (even) primary medical health care facilities and (a small thing like) potable water?

till the year 2000, only 10% of the revenues generated from these and other states were given back. major chunk of the revenue is spent on admin expenses like providing extra-luxurious facilities to most of the heartless leaders/politicians.

Recently the goi has increased revenue sharing to 20% (giving back to states) but the goi need to do much more to bring the frustrated lot to main stream by providing all basic facilities to everyone - unto the last man than only such heinous act will stop.

innocent dutiful jawans are killed and their families are left bereaved by these moti chamdi wallas again and again.

may god bless the departed souls of dutiful brave jawans. may god bless moti chamde wala with wisdom.

(it has been suggested that 50% of the revenue/benefits generated in the states should be given back to the respective states)

Nair · Post by **Nair** » 06 Apr 2010 16:16

Condolences to the families of all the jawans killed.....where is Arundhati Roy now?...her "beautiful children" are nothing but murderers. What a bitch.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 06 Apr 2010 16:17

My God 70

RIP brave jawans

I am sure people like Arundhati Roy must be laughing their asses off.
Unfortunately, This has become a routine affair. I don't know what's the reason behind this. Is it because our paramilitary forces are poorly trained or Naxalites are highly trained ?
So far it seems Naxalites have the clear upper hand both in terms of motivation & training. The govt. must realize that talking time is over, time to do something concrete.
This war cannot be won by Paramilitary forces alone. We desperately need Army now. Unfortunately the govt. has still not realized this. What's the point in sending poorly trained, overweight soldiers to face highly trained, young, highly motivated Naxalites unless they want our soldiers to be used as target practice by Maosits. Check out the following pic :

Nobody is wearing BPJ & as if that wasn't enough look at the second guy from front. What is he doing there with 40 inch waist ? I clearly don't understand what the govt. is trying to accomplish with this.
I know many people here may not agree with this but I cannot think of any other possible solution. Time to move on from this we cannot use IA against our fellow citizens slogan.

To fellow BRFites Is the following scenerio possible :
Is it possible that the MHA decides to work with Army behind closed doors. Of course they cannot declare that in public for the fear of being targeted by Human rights groups. Under this agreement they decide to employ some units of highly trained RR or Ghatak's disguised as CRPF guys. As far as difficuly in understanding the terrain & local language is concerned CRPF is in no better position that RR or Ghatak. To overcome that, they have the local police. But with this the end result will be in favour of us.

Thanks

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Apr 2010 16:25

To fellow BRFites Is the following scenerio possible :
Is it possible that the MHA decides to work with Army behind closed doors. Of course they cannot declare that in public for the fear of being targeted by Human rights groups. Under this agreement they decide to employ some units of highly trained RR or Ghatak's disguised as CRPF guys. As far as difficuly in understanding the terrain & local language is concerned CRPF is in no better position that RR or Ghatak. To overcome that, they have the local police. But with this the end result will be in favour of us.

If they ever wish to do so, nobody stops them,but then again votebank considerations etc, comes in between, politicians simply cant do these things,they arent made for that ...

sunny ji, there is a secret method in politics, to make things worse, PC is doing exactly the same,
lets see a Real scenario: tommorrow he will suspend/transfer some officilas will guarantee more actions and then after 2 days , TV channels will be flooded with stories of sania mirza , IPL ,etc
Nobody cares, because it doesnt affect their vote banks ,or unless naxals reach delhi !..