Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 15 Jan 2009 01:28

And the mountain tunnels at the weapons depot at Sargodha.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Jan 2009 19:55

Can this facility be turned useless in a single nuclear strike either by Prithvi or Agni ?

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 16 Jan 2009 20:02

Hello guys

The final, Part 5, of my Indo-Pak battle scenario has been posted on the UPI Asia website.

The link is posted below:

http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2009/01 ... eace/6409/

It is all fictional but as close to reality as possible.

It is highly unlikely that any Pakistani Government will commit suicide by committing nuclear weapons in any battle with India. If there is no Pakistan left but most of India survives, it is a lost cause for them. It will stay as an intimidation weapon.

Cheers

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Jan 2009 22:06

Great Scenario, Hari !!! I thought PAD and AAD would have knocked down the puki missile launched at Delhi, but its ok , next Mumbai in 2108...

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 16 Jan 2009 23:59

Great work Hari sir,i am wondering what vivek sir is planning for the next set of posts..waiting desperately to get some more of the massive firework on the hindi-chini front

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 17 Jan 2009 00:50

durgesh wrote:Can this facility be turned useless in a single nuclear strike either by Prithvi or Agni ?

A hit might cause enough landslides and enough ground shaking to cause the inner walls of the facility to collapse or the doors to be rendered useless.

This has been done by the chinese for the pakis. More likely a Command and Control Bunker along the lines of NORAD with possible storage of a few crown Jewels ?Loaded on Missiles?

Yogesh · Post by **Yogesh** » 17 Jan 2009 01:20

Kudos to you Hari Sir

for your efforts,

I would like to add that a retaliation strike would probably be much more intensive to cripple there back bone!! (if they have so

)

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 17 Jan 2009 12:33

Vivek saar... going cold turkey from ur scenes is bad bad bad... UPDATE PLZ.

karadi · Post by **karadi** » 17 Jan 2009 16:58

Yes. please please please....

One more...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Jan 2009 17:57

k prasad wrote:Vivek saar... going cold turkey from ur scenes is bad bad bad... UPDATE PLZ.

Just enjoying Hari Sir's scenarios. Been a long time since somebody wrote a Pakistan war scenario.

In any case, I think he has finished with his work. So I will continue.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Jan 2009 17:58

BATTLE OF THE 10TH MECHANIZED
SOUTHEAST OF D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0800 HRS (L)

“Driver, stop!”

The NAMICA chassis shuddered to a abrupt stop and the dust trailing behind caught up, enveloping the vehicle. The vehicle commander looked through the commander’s optical sights in the turret and nodded: they were sufficiently covered by the boulders ahead, but the turret was above the rocks and had a clear LOS. From here the crew could literally see the three remaining BMPs under Colonel Sudarshan reversing towards them in a weaving pattern even as they fought off the charging Chinese ZBDs. It was a poignant sight to see the desperate battle being fought by the Indian BMP-II crews trying to stave off being overrun and annihilated by a numerically superior enemy force.

Of course, that’s where we come in...The AT Platoon commander thought as he brought up his mouthpiece and manoeuvred the other three NAMICAs into position. In the time between this platoon having decimated the enemy first wave heading for Brigadier Adesara’s lines and Colonel Sudarshan having initiated his delaying fight, the NAMICA platoon had been able to regroup and reload. Now it was entering the fight...

The platoon commander brought up his R/T mouthpiece even as he peered through the optics to see another Indian BMP-II taking serious number of cannon hits before staggering to a halt. A moment later the turret of the incapacitated Indian vehicle flung open and two crew members staggered out, obviously hurt. No sooner had they stepped out that flames erupted from inside the turret hatch. But their escape was cut short when they were jumping off the chassis and trying to make sense of the confused, smoke-filled battle situation around them. A Chinese ZBD gunner opened up with the auto-cannon at the escaping Indian crew and the two members went crashing down into the snow under the impact of the bullets.

The suddenness of the brutal attack caught the NAMICA crews by surprise. A moment later surprise had given way to anger as the platoon commander zoomed in on the guilty ZBD. It was within range.

“Gunner, tell me you have visual on that ZBD!” the commander shouted.

“I have visual. He’s mine!” the gunner replied.

“Take the shot!” the commander switched frequencies: “FIERY-ONE to all FIERY elements: Engage! Engage!”

The vehicle shuddered a second later as the first Nag missile punched out of the canister and streaked towards the doomed ZBD that was now trying to engage the two remaining BMP-IIs. There was no warning. The Nag slammed into the weak top armour of the Chinese vehicle and the vehicle was completely decimated in a thunder and a fireball. There were no survivors. Two other ZBDs suffered the same fate as the NAMICA platoon of the 10TH Mechanized went into action...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Jan 2009 17:59

THE CITADEL DEFENSIVE LINE TWO
D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0810 HRS (L)

The Chinese second wave was behaving as predicted, but having predicted it was no good if there was nothing that could be done to stop it. Brigadier Adesara lowered his binoculars to see the first elements of the second wave move around the decimated right flank of the burning first wave vehicles and begin and enveloping manoeuvre to the north. This way the Chinese commander hoped to give the Indians a smaller engagement arc than by approaching head on. It also meant that more pressure could be applied against each of the three Battalions under Adesara, individually.

On the Indian side, there was now only one of the original four T-72Ms still alive. And it engaged the first vehicle it saw from its pre-prepared revetment in phase-line two of the Brigade defences. The third phase-line was around the airbase perimeter itself. There was no fourth line other than to the south of D.B.O., south of the Chip-Chap river and near Saser. But that last location meant that everything north of it would fall into Chinese hands, including the Karakoram pass, DBO and the surrounding plains. It was not something that Adesara and his Brigade staff had enjoyed simulating in the days before. And yet that simulation was slowly becoming reality in front of their eyes now...

With a thundering crack the sabot round fired from the lone T-72 slammed into the left side panels of a Chinese T-99 and it shuddered to a stop in a mass of flames. The return fire from a second T-99 exploded mere meters away from the stationary T-72, throwing a large dust cloud over the tank and nearby positions.

Adesara was engrossed in this battle from his Brigade CP even as his staff officers ran about trying to make sense of the battle. He then walked over to where his Brigade Major or BM and the Air-Force–Liaison of AFL were standing near the battlefield computers and radios. Adesara butted into the heated argument going on:

“What the hell is going on here? And where the hell is my air support?”

The BM looked at the AFL who took the question:
“I can bring in two Jaguars with half loads within two minutes. They have hit their primary targets in the Galwan valley area but still have unused weapons hanging from their pylons. Then there is a flight of another three Jaguars coming into the area half an hour from now. I am trying to scrounge any flights that have unused ammunition to support us here, but the entire Laddakh front has blown up in the last few hours. Every aircraft we have is being used for support operations somewhere or the other. There are just not enough fighters to go around. We have dedicated support coming out to us but it will take a couple of hours at least.”

Adesara lost his temper on that one: “Damn it! I was assured by Division that we had priority over this sector! Somebody has screwed up down the line.” He calmed down before turning to face the two officers in front of him:

“All right, listen up. Clear out this mess. You get any and every aircraft that you can find in the air that has weapons to spare. If they have napalm, cluster-munitions, cannon rounds or whatever. I don’t care. Just get them here. Even the presence of aircraft overhead will help slow things down over here and have psychological effects that can prove useful. We have to hold this ground.

I am not handing over the Karakoram pass to the Chinese today.”

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 17 Jan 2009 18:11

Joining in late on this but have some points.

What interesting in the articles by Hari is that it makes a mockery of Indian Air Defense around its air bases. Losing 3 forward airbases is not a good sign. If it was a war with China then we will be routed. The articles show considerable damage to Indian air assets. However, if my knowledge is good about it, Indian Air Force is superior to the Chinese in terms of both Quality of weaponry and also the Training. If our MiG 21s can take out F-15s, I dont see the F-16s of Pakistan which are a generation behind to inflict any damage on our Sukhois. So i cant stomach the heavy losses for our Air Force.

Also, in the article, Hari says India choses not to attack Pakistani airbases citing the losses already inflicted. India should infact go ahead and destroy these Pakistani air bases and much of its remaining combat fleet, along with radar,communication lines etc, since in the article it is mentioned that 30 fighters later attack the Jamnagar Air base. That would not have happened if India had crippled PAF on the first day itself. Establishing air superiority is the first thing any country would want in any war. Establishing complete air superiority would have also cleared the way for the joint Indo Israeli op to take out Pakistani nukes.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 17 Jan 2009 19:19

Yusuf

Good points.

As I said before on these posts. Pakistani Air fOrce is a very competent air force. A walk over of the type you suggest and a reader earlier had suggested, is impossible.

India may ultimately prevail, but not without a big fight. In any fight damage on both side will have to be sustained.

A completely fortified Indian airbases will have some weaknesses, which Pakistani's will exploit.

My paper includes (part 1) none of Pakistani air force palnes returning after Delhi & Agra attack. Later in the posts, the Jamnagar attackers face the BVR attack and do not return home. Also all attckers of oil platform near mumbai does not sccumb to air attack but to misssile attack but comes out after a light damage.

India's main aim has been to attack terror infrastructure and ISI, which IAF succeeded. Also in the process took out Chakalala, Sargodha, Rahim Yaar, Karachi, Lahore and almost all of Pakistani nuclear faccilities.

Israeli were involved in my scenario, because Israeli citizens were dead in Mumbai, hence they wished to participate, also in order to confuse Pakistani nuclear defenders an attack from the West was essential.

That is what a competent air force commander will tell you that damage will 70:30, but India will sustain damage but will prevail.

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 18 Jan 2009 11:47

Hari,

Im not denying the potentness of Pakistans AF. Im wondering why will IAF not destroy the Airbases and further cripple Pakistani air assets and establish complete air superiority? After that it could bomb any location it wants including terror infrastructure.
Leaving the PAF bases intact, gives them a chance to regroup and then launch another assault (like Jamnagar). Though they are all downed, but then if their fighting ability was reduced in the first place, then the attack on J'nagar would not have come at all.

In any modern war, the first thing anyone would want to achieve is complete air superiority so that it can then carry out further ops with impunity.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 18 Jan 2009 12:40

^^^ Hard to apply that for Indian scenario Yusuf. If a military action is inevitable with Pakistan, India would like to achieve many of the objectives before the diplomatic squeeze for ceasefire occurs. That timeframe I would say is 1 - 2 weeks max. Very difficult to achieve air superiority first and then engage in ground action.

IMHO India would engage in a simultaneous land, air and sea action (i believe the crux of Cold Start

). IAF in such a scenario will be the most stretched engaging in a variety of ops from CAS, OCA, DCA, AI, etc.

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 18 Jan 2009 12:57

KiranM wrote:^^^ Hard to apply that for Indian scenario Yusuf. If a military action is inevitable with Pakistan, India would like to achieve many of the objectives before the diplomatic squeeze for ceasefire occurs. That timeframe I would say is 1 - 2 weeks max. Very difficult to achieve air superiority first and then engage in ground action.

IMHO India would engage in a simultaneous land, air and sea action (i believe the crux of Cold Start ). IAF in such a scenario will be the most stretched engaging in a variety of ops from CAS, OCA, DCA, AI, etc.

Taking out PAF assets should be one of the objectives. F-16s constitute a major psychological edge in Pakistani armed forces. They are also form one of the nuclear delivery platform. 2 weeks is a long time in any war with Pakistan. Air Superiority can be established withing 2 days of the war considering the fact that the PAF has only the F 16s as their front line planes and we have a far better number and quality of air assets.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 18 Jan 2009 13:22

Yusuf wrote:
KiranM wrote:^^^ Hard to apply that for Indian scenario Yusuf. If a military action is inevitable with Pakistan, India would like to achieve many of the objectives before the diplomatic squeeze for ceasefire occurs. That timeframe I would say is 1 - 2 weeks max. Very difficult to achieve air superiority first and then engage in ground action.

IMHO India would engage in a simultaneous land, air and sea action (i believe the crux of Cold Start ). IAF in such a scenario will be the most stretched engaging in a variety of ops from CAS, OCA, DCA, AI, etc.
Taking out PAF assets should be one of the objectives. F-16s constitute a major psychological edge in Pakistani armed forces. They are also form one of the nuclear delivery platform. 2 weeks is a long time in any war with Pakistan. Air Superiority can be established withing 2 days of the war considering the fact that the PAF has only the F 16s as their front line planes and we have a far better number and quality of air assets.

Yusuf bhai, 1-2 weeks includes mobilization in my opinion. Wouldnt want AF mounting strikes when Army/ Navy are not ready would we?! Massive mobilization will be hard to miss by 'concerned' satellites/ other assets. Once, the 'powers' that be notice that, they will try to gauge the intent, feelers already will flow back and forth. So time from actual military action to substantial diplomatic squeeze can be measured in days IMHO.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 15:54

Yusuf wrote:Taking out PAF assets should be one of the objectives. F-16s constitute a major psychological edge in Pakistani armed forces. They are also form one of the nuclear delivery platform. 2 weeks is a long time in any war with Pakistan. Air Superiority can be established withing 2 days of the war considering the fact that the PAF has only the F 16s as their front line planes and we have a far better number and quality of air assets.

I would advise against doing such simple analysis for something that is anything but simple. It remains to be seen, for example, how the Russian BVRs and even our own Astra BVRs compare against the Amriki Sparrows (not to be confused with brochure facts and figures). These are the things that can affect battles significantly, to say the least. There are hundreds of other issues that are untested in battle. Numbers are only part of the game, not the whole picture.

-Vivek

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 18 Jan 2009 16:59

I would advise against doing such simple analysis for something that is anything but simple. It remains to be seen, for example, how the Russian BVRs and even our own Astra BVRs compare against the Amriki Sparrows (not to be confused with brochure facts and figures). These are the things that can affect battles significantly, to say the least. There are hundreds of other issues that are untested in battle. Numbers are only part of the game, not the whole picture.

agree and disagree what if ( shall put in detail after viveks scenario ends but this is the way i think the next indo -pak war will play out )

-the world community will get fade up with pakistans time wasting games and give indians covert the support for a quick and brutal strike air and land based and maybe the navy will join in

- thee window will stay open for 7-10 days maximum
- usa and china and russia will ensure no nukes are used with ultimatum to cut of all military supplies even if one tac nuke is used

- israel will join the air strike elements directly and us will the naval strike force
- it will be an international force but mainly indian in nature

the strike will be triggered after another major terror strike mot likely in europe (spain /netherlands .frange or most likely us air base in germany) along with several smaller ones in India and Afghanistan

the start will be like dessert storm -massive aerial first strike for 3/4 days followed by incisive armor strike across gujrat border

naval blokade of all pakistani shipping in the arabian sea /gulf of aden and indian ocean and may be persian gulf too

Iran may stay out or tacitly support the indian policy to defuse the terror generated internatinal tension

Russia will like old days open the military equipment support ( but for cash) so will france and south africa with some encouragement from US

this will happen let me guess ( just a guess for the scenario purpose only) 45-60 days from Obama taking oath

that is around mid march just after indian general election when BJP wins with landslide majority

the Su30 will see action for the first time so would the smerch batteries and the whole generation of indian missiles including brahmos

which will be deadly effective in air launched version

upgraded mig 27s will devastate the pakistani air bases along border and will operate with the mirage 2000s

sukhois will operate in 3 ship formations with dedicated refuellers and will attack in a very convoluted ingress route totally confusing the paki air defense network. The 2 sukhois will dominate the 100 km3 airspace with one in reserve /co ordinator role

all 3 phalcons will be delivered and operational by then

Russia will ease some A-50 s and Tu-95/142 manned by russian pilots on a daily wet lease basis for ocean monitoring 24x7 operating out of Goa

Mig 21s will play essentiall air base cap in forward air bases .

Mumbai and jamnagar will be hit hard and some partial hit on delhi during the initial stages of hostility

all major cities of pakistan will take serious hits and thier economy will collapse as ressult

there will be no formal cesefire - UN will take over running pakistan and its nuke will be dismantled in russia

Pakistan as a state will still exist but just that

Like 71 China will not intervene and unlike 71 US will support India in more than one ways

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 18 Jan 2009 17:06

Shankar sir,

Vivek's scenario can go on . Can you start your own Indo-Pak scenario ? GOI has failed to do it but we would be obliged if you could satisfy our lust to see the Pakis getting some good bashing.

What do other die-hard followers of this thread think about my views above ?

Thanks.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 19:03

Shankar wrote:all 3 phalcons will be delivered and operational by then

You are talking of this march! How can all three be delivered two months from now?

Not Possible.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 19:09

This might interest those folks who might still be following my scenario:

I have been receiving some emails from folks asking for clarification of the DBO battle being played out currently in the scenario. I have therefore created a map which might explain some details...

-Vivek

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 19:16

But more than the Depsang Plains, I would love if there is a battle at Chushul - Rezang La included.
This is where two PVC's were awarded in '62

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 18 Jan 2009 19:31

KiranM wrote: Yusuf bhai, 1-2 weeks includes mobilization in my opinion. Wouldnt want AF mounting strikes when Army/ Navy are not ready would we?! Massive mobilization will be hard to miss by 'concerned' satellites/ other assets. Once, the 'powers' that be notice that, they will try to gauge the intent, feelers already will flow back and forth. So time from actual military action to substantial diplomatic squeeze can be measured in days IMHO.

The scenario goes that mobilization is complete and war has broken out. But India choses not to attack PAF bases.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 19:51

Is there a route from Thoise-Sasoma-Saser Pass?
Or do you go south all the way to shyok then turn north along the shyok river to saser! My what a long route.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 20:42

p_saggu wrote:Is there a route from Thoise-Sasoma-Saser Pass?
Or do you go south all the way to shyok then turn north along the shyok river to saser! My what a long route.

AFAIK you take the Shyok to Saser to DBO route if you want to have any possibility of inducting vehicles in the DBO region. For the Chinese, see the relatively easy terrain for inducting vehicles. Is it any wonder that they wanted a treaty that stated that there should be no use of tanks in Laddakh? Should they want to break the treaty, they are in a position to induct tanks into the region much more quickly than we are. Smart buggers.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 20:42

THE CITADEL DEFENSIVE LINE TWO
D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0830 HRS (L)

The last Indian T-72 on the north bank of the Chip-Chap River did not last long under the combined weight of the Chinese second wave. Ironically it was taken out by a Chinese anti-tank missile fired off by one of the IFVs that made up the majority of the second wave. As the burning turret fell on the side of the tank chassis amidst a pillar of flames, Brigadier Adesara turned his binoculars to the northeast to see what remained of the second wave. It was not a pretty sight...

The Chinese had originally intended to roll over the Indian armour using the tank heavy first wave. That effort had been brought to a grinding halt by the combined force of the T-72M Troop, the Milan teams and the ambush by the NAMICA Troop. But the effort had cost Brigadier Adesara three of his original four T-72Ms and several Milan teams. In addition, the Chinese commander had diverted his flanking ZBD recon groups to counter the thrusts made by Colonel Sudarshan and his BMP Squadron of the 10TH Mechanized Regiment. The NAMICA Troop was now involved in covering the retreat of the survivors of the BMP-II force on the south banks of the river. It was therefore no longer is support of the troops on the north bank.

On the north bank, Adesara had seen with his own eyes the decimation of his last remaining T-72 and another two Milan teams under fire from the Chinese second wave that was now manoeuvring around the burning hulks of the first wave. The second wave had taken losses in tanks, with three T-99s destroyed by the hull down T-72M before the latter was killed. Further losses had been inflicted on the Chinese by the few surviving Milan teams who even now were doing their best to weather down the force of the Chinese assault against their positions. But there were just too many of the Chinese vehicles around and not enough of their Indian counterparts...

Adesara was jerked back from his thoughts by his Brigade Major and the Air-Force-Liaison along with two radiomen. Overhead he heard the distant rumble of jet engines. His BM spoke quickly:

“Sir, we have two Jaguars available with some CBUs and enough fuel and cannon rounds for a few strafing runs. They are requesting target information. Given the limited nature of the support, I have prioritized the north bank sector for the attacks. But target identification might be a problem in all these dust clouds...”

Brigadier Adesara looked over at the thick black smoke emanating from the burning T-72 hulk in its dug-out revetment before speaking:

“Tell them to stick to attacking vehicles on the north bank and leave infantry targets to us. We just lost our last combat vehicle on the north bank. Tell them if they see a vehicle moving on this side of the river, it’s got a red star on it...”

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 20:44

THE SKIES ABOVE DAULAT BEG OLDI
DAY 4 + 0840 HRS (L)

The rising dust clouds from continuous movement of vehicles on the plains around DBO were swamping the region. To the troops on the ground, the sun was nothing but a brown-yellow haze and the blue skies above were not visible. The view for the two Jaguar pilots who streaked over the battlefield was just as confused. Vehicles were moving around like ants and there were pillars of smoke everywhere. Target identification was impossible. The only land features were the melting icy-waters of the Chip-Chap River cutting the plain in a northern and southern half and the Citadel, barely visible around the clouds of smoke. And then there were the large mass of moving vehicles on either bank of the river. The pilots looked at the ones on the north bank as they had been instructed to do.

There...the Flight Leader of the two Jaguars thought to himself as he instantly adjust the control stick and aligned the aircraft towards the line of vehicles moving westwards and firing along the way. His wingman did the same. A thousand feet above the ground the aircraft pulled level and streaked in at high subsonic speeds. Inside the cockpit the pilots flipped the cover over the release switch on the already armed CBUs hanging on the inner wing pylons...

Within seconds the target group passed through the small diamond release zone on the HUD display and each pilot pressed the weapons release button on their control stick and then pushed the throttle forward and banked away. The four CBUs fell clean off their pylons, dispersed their deadly munitions into the spread pattern and fell clean. The rain of submunitions descended on the mass of Chinese ZBDs and T-99s below.

The concentrated mass of sparks and dust raised by the impact of the munitions on the ground surrounding the Chinese second wave was interspersed with fireballs and secondary explosions as several ZBDs were destroyed amidst the shouts of joy from the besieged Indian troopers on the receiving ends of the Chinese guns.

The T-99s were made of sterner stuff and did not go up in fireballs. But their tracks lay shattered and several of them had their engine compartments penetrated by shrapnel to a point that the vehicles were now ticking time bombs; just waiting to go off the second leaking fuel came in contact with the burning metal pieces. Their crews realized the danger and began jumping out of the turrets to the surprise of the Indian soldiers in front. The massive burst of INSAS rifle rounds claimed almost all of the Chinese tank crew members in seconds before the platoon commanders on the Indian side began shouting out the “cease fire!” orders.

But the battle was not over yet. Several Chinese ZBDs were still alive and kicking and began to engage the Indian infantry positions with cannon fire, sending the defenders diving and crashing for cover as the rounds again began to kick up dust around their positions. Then there were more thuds and the fire abruptly stopped following a jarring rumble. Brigadier Adesara and his staff were sent ducking for cover as the two Jaguars again streaked overhead at suicidal low altitudes on a strafing run. As the dust settled, Adesara peeked over the sandbags to see another three ZBDs dead in their tracks and spewing fire from their hatches after suffering large holes on their panels. The aircraft cannon rounds were deadly against their weak skins...

And then it stopped. As Adesara and his men watched in amazement, the few surviving ZBDs and the single T-99 remaining from the second wave began to pull back after deploying smoke screens. A few of the IFV versions of the ZBDs were also firing their cannons into the sky in a vain effort to shoot down the Indian aircraft. All it did was attract attention towards them. Their battle was short:

The bursts of tracer lit rounds from the two ZBDs into the blue sky to the south was followed by a hail of cannon round impacts on the ground around them as well as on their vehicles. One of the two ZBDs went up in a fireball as the two Jaguars streaked overhead in their last strafing round before banking away to the south. But the Chinese gunners called it a day. The second wave began its retreat.

Any thought that Brigadier Adesara might have had to advance back to the mangled remains of his Citadel defensive lines were cut short as a massive number of Chinese artillery rounds impacted around his current defences. The Chinese had shifted artillery fire from the DBO airfield towards his Battalions to cover the retreat of the second wave survivors. But despite the falling dust and rocks, Adesara and his staff officers smiled to each other.

The first Chinese attack to capture Daulat Beg Oldi and the Karakoram pass had been broken...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Jan 2009 20:45

SOUTH OF THE CITADEL
D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0845 HRS (L)

The story was the same on the south banks. Colonel Sudarshan slammed open the hatch of his BMP-II to see the lines of smoke and dust being created along the entire horizon as the Chinese ZBDs withdrew back a few kilometres to regroup. He brought up his binoculars to see several Anti-Air vehicles also moving into position behind the Chinese lines...

Sudarshan realized what had happened. The Chinese armour had been forced too far forward by the tactical fighting retreat by the Indian defenders. The strung out Chinese vehicles had been mauled by the savage air attack by the Indian Jaguars mainly because the supporting anti-air vehicles had been too far behind to support.

That was a goof-up on their part and good-luck for us. These things happen, but won’t happen again now that the message has been hammered home...Sudarshan thought as he lowered his binoculars and looked around at the other dust covered BMP-II to his right. This was the only other survivor from the original eight BMPs under his command. To his left he saw the three remaining NAMICAs in their prepared positions while the fourth burned furiously to the extreme left. The casualties had been high for the 10TH Mechanized so far with more than two dozen men killed in this squadron alone. But at least the unit was still alive.

With the current force levels, there was no question of counterattack until the main bulk of the 10TH Mechanized arrived. With the Chinese bringing up their own reinforcements, it was a race in which the side that brought its reinforcements quicker than the other side would win the battle for the sector...

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 18 Jan 2009 20:55

vivek_ahuja wrote:SOUTH OF THE CITADEL
D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0845 HRS (L)

Finally the air support arrives

Gr8 going vivek boss

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 18 Jan 2009 21:13

Yusuf wrote:
KiranM wrote: Yusuf bhai, 1-2 weeks includes mobilization in my opinion. Wouldnt want AF mounting strikes when Army/ Navy are not ready would we?! Massive mobilization will be hard to miss by 'concerned' satellites/ other assets. Once, the 'powers' that be notice that, they will try to gauge the intent, feelers already will flow back and forth. So time from actual military action to substantial diplomatic squeeze can be measured in days IMHO.
The scenario goes that mobilization is complete and war has broken out. But India choses not to attack PAF bases.

My friend, that is where we digress. No matter what good a scenario we hypothize, from mobilization to ceasefire we will have a window of just 1-1.5 weeks (2 weeks being very optimistic) We can take the example of Israel vs Hamas. Though in our case the 'concern' will be faster and greater because:
1) unlike against Palestine, it is not in US interest of Pak being attacked.
2) US doesnt consider India as important as Israel strategically, or even due to inside influence (US Jewish lobby)
3) India is comparatively larger than Israel. Hence, mobilization and deployment to area of action will take comparatively more time.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 18 Jan 2009 21:20

Mihir.D wrote:Shankar sir,

................ GOI has failed to do it but we would be obliged if you could satisfy our lust to see the Pakis getting some good bashing.

What do other die-hard followers of this thread think about my views above ?

Thanks.

Mihir
Leaving aside jingoism and our desire to see paki land turn into wasteland, ground realities dictate the best case scenario will be a stalemate. Pakis are evenly matched on ground forces, superior in sub force. I pointed out these discrepancies in another thread. We only have 7 subs that are battleworthy. Viraat is in repair shop. We are in a deep pickle as far as navy is concerned. Anything less than complete decimation of Paki land will be a victory for them.

This stupid UPA and Commie agenda of "CMP" hasn't helped anything. These idiots have forgotten that strong Defense Industrial complex provides more jobs, better progress, places development of infrastructre on higher trajectory. Technologies developed for military use can be made available for civilian sector that provides more jobs, just like in military, for every combat soldier you need 4 supporting person, for every job created there are 4 other supporting job opportunities. It will increase tax revenue, higher income for people, more prosperity, that in turn brings more spending from government.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 22:16

Do you think the economists don't already know that. They all study the way the world's largest economy does things.

It is just that they fear, making the military industrial complex too powerful.
They fear letting this complex out of government hands.
They want funds to be available for appeasement measures for the ruling party at crunch times - say just before elections, after disasters etc.
The want the funds to go into (Netaon Ki) Garibi Hatao schemes eg. Ganga cleansing programmes, Job gurantee schemes, Build the river embankments after the flood schemes, Mid day school meal programmes et al. All these are cash cows which generate crores upon crores for everyone in the food chain, most importantly the ruling party, because funds are only released for the states where they rule.

In between governance is given a short shrift. Even basic measures are tried to be delayed.

Finally one has to admit - corruption aside - 1. India is still not a very rich country
2. There has to be an attitudinal change among the public towards the armed forces - Just like our cricket team. From Desh Bhakti towards Well oiled killers. Enough of the blood donation and deshbhakti display campaigns when there is a war, it is an attempt to hide what needed to be done by the government, and which wasn't done, at peacetime.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 18 Jan 2009 22:22

Saggu
No arguement here.

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 19 Jan 2009 03:52

There is a scenario of a nuclear war in India - Pakistan written by Paki loving Australian Army Officer Brian Cloughley.

This friend had been in Pakistan for several years, has been guest of ISI and origionally worked for MI-6, who sent him toPakistan thirty years back.

He has written a multitude of papers and books on Pakistani Army and is often quoted by western observers in Pakistani military affairs.

Here is his nuclear scenario. It is all pro-Pakistani, never the less it is a scenario.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2009_pg3_4

opinion: Nuclear disaster in South Asia —Brian Cloughley

Survivors in India and Pakistan will see repulsive, terrifying and hideous scenes never before witnessed in the world — but there will be no outside eye to observe them, other than the lenses of dispassionate satellite cameras hundreds of miles above the earth

At this time of tension between India and Pakistan, it is as well to reflect on the consequences of war. We all hope that something like the mock despatch, below, is never written. But given the interview with NDTV in which “the Home Minister said it would now be [up to] Pakistan to ensure that such acts [as the Mumbai attacks] are never repeated by its citizens against India, because the price they will pay if this is repeated will be enormous,” it is obvious there can be no assurance that India will not attempt a strike across the border. That would lead to all-out war.

World Press Despatch. Washington.

The world was stunned today as nuclear devastation fell on the subcontinent. Enormous areas of Mumbai, Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Delhi were reduced to radioactive rubble in the early hours of this morning. Both Hyderabads have been obliterated, as have Sargodha, Bahawalpur and Jaipur, by weapons thought to have had a yield of about 40 kilotons (the Hiroshima bomb was less than half that). An Indian strike against Karachi failed, when nuclear-armed Su-30 aircraft had to take evasive action and released their bombs about fifty miles east of Pakistan’s largest city — but then prevailing winds drove massive clouds of radioactive sand across the entire urban area and far along the coastline.

Ground zero for Pakistan’s nuclear missiles aimed at New Delhi appeared to be symbolic: India Gate. The city’s business area, centred round Connaught Place, no longer exists, and destruction was total in the diplomatic enclave of Chanakyapuri and north to Civil Lines, perhaps further. It is estimated that a million people have died or are dying in Delhi, about the same number as in Lahore, Amritsar, Mumbai and Rawalpindi. Almost the entire population of Islamabad, where a missile landed, ironically, close to Zero Point, has vanished. The hearts of Pakistan and India have been laid waste.

There are smoking, contaminated, corpse-ridden ruins for hundreds of square miles. Millions of people have disappeared — evaporated into the filthy air — but there are countless more lingering, disgusting, hellish deaths yet to come from the effects of blast and radiation. Water supplies and crops have been poisoned. Many millions not directly affected by the explosions will soon die, and in particularly horrible ways.

The governments of both countries remain functioning in their respective emergency centres in Chennai and Quetta, and their leaders have said that they will fight on. But they, too, will die, with all their ministers and advisers, when the winds and rains spread radioactive death through the region.

The countries cannot fight on, or even survive as nations. Countless millions of refugees are flooding out of cities all over the sub-continent. Every main route is verge-to-verge with snail-paced vehicles carrying terrified and hysterical people. The Rawalpindi-Peshawar highway, in a bizarre development, has seen countless thousands of refugees from both cities meeting at Nowshera where there is catastrophic panic and confusion. To the west, the Khyber Pass is choked. Similar scenes are evident in satellite pictures of the Mumbai-Pune road and at Hapur, half-way between Delhi and Moradabad.

Nowhere on any escape routes are there hygiene or medical facilities that can cope with the exodus. Once refugees have exhausted their meagre supplies of food and water there will be hunger, looting, disease, violence and hideous death on a colossal scale.

Tension heightened in the subcontinent after the terrorist atrocities in Mumbai in September 2008, and both sides prepared for war. They sent reinforcements to the border and moved missiles and warheads to emergency deployment positions. This activity was detected by foreign intelligence services and even by commercial satellites, but international concern died down after an initial burst of comment.

In a tragic series of actions, both nations moved towards nuclear catastrophe. The cause was a comparatively minor airstrike by India against a supposed terrorist base in Pakistan, at first resisted by India’s prime minister but insisted upon by extreme nationalists. Pakistan was expecting such action and struck back by bombing an Indian airfield. There were several more tit-for-tat operations; then all-out war began.

Update: The situation in the region is worsening minute by minute. Satellite pictures show clouds of nuclear dust being blown erratically in every direction. There have been torrential rains, carrying radioactive particles. Nuclear grime is dropping on the Karakorams and the Himalayas from where most water in the subcontinent originates, and all northern rivers will be terminally contaminated. Hot, swirling, nuclear-polluted sandstorms in the deserts of Rajasthan, Sindh and Balochistan have been driven into both Punjabs, the North West Frontier Province, Haryana, Maharashtra, and Uttar Pradesh. Reports from Colombo, Rangoon, Kathmandu and Kabul indicate rapidly increasing levels of radiation. The 70,000 foreign troops in Afghanistan are being evacuated, necessitating the world’s biggest ever airlift. Iran has closed its borders, and the roads from Afghanistan to Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan are choked.

The UN Security Council is sitting in emergency session, but it is a hand-wringing colloquy rather than a meeting that could alleviate the staggering disaster. Some forty nuclear weapons have caused devastation on a scale not seen since the end of the dinosaurs. All the world can do is wait until nature takes its course, over the centuries.

The subcontinent is ceasing to exist, and no help will come from elsewhere, as even the most saintly of aid agencies will not hazard the lives of its workers. No government could order its troops into nuclear devastation to give assistance, no matter how desperate the situation. Survivors in India and Pakistan will see repulsive, terrifying and hideous scenes never before witnessed in the world — but there will be no outside eye to observe them, other than the lenses of dispassionate satellite cameras hundreds of miles above the earth that will record forever the desolation and carnage that are the result of pride, miscalculation — and nuclear weapons.

Brian Cloughley’s book about the Pakistan army, War, Coups and Terror, has just been published by Pen & Sword Books (UK) and is distributed in Pakistan by Saeed Book Bank

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 19 Jan 2009 16:09

Hari Sud wrote:There is a scenario of a nuclear war in India - Pakistan written by Paki loving Australian Army Officer Brian Cloughley.

Hari, You post interesting alternate scenarios. Why dont you start your own "Alternate scenarios Thread" ?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 19 Jan 2009 17:12

Nitesh wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:SOUTH OF THE CITADEL
D.B.O.
DAY 4 + 0845 HRS (L)

Finally the air support arrives

Gr8 going vivek boss

Surprisingy No chinese stingers .. I mean chinese must have some thing to deter away air support or atleast something like tungska with them if they have planned for mechanized advance in indian soil .. No offence for sure

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 19 Jan 2009 17:18

parshuram wrote: Surprisingy No chinese stingers .. I mean chinese must have some thing to deter away air support or atleast something like tungska with them if they have planned for mechanized advance in indian soil .. No offence for sure

have you read the line:

Sudarshan realized what had happened. The Chinese armour had been forced too far forward by the tactical fighting retreat by the Indian defenders. The strung out Chinese vehicles had been mauled by the savage air attack by the Indian Jaguars mainly because the supporting anti-air vehicles had been too far behind to support.

It was a mistake from there side

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 19 Jan 2009 18:10

Nitesh wrote:
parshuram wrote: Surprisingy No chinese stingers .. I mean chinese must have some thing to deter away air support or atleast something like tungska with them if they have planned for mechanized advance in indian soil .. No offence for sure
have you read the line:

Sudarshan realized what had happened. The Chinese armour had been forced too far forward by the tactical fighting retreat by the Indian defenders. The strung out Chinese vehicles had been mauled by the savage air attack by the Indian Jaguars mainly because the supporting anti-air vehicles had been too far behind to support.
It was a mistake from there side

my fault sorry