Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Each gun costing 130 to 150 cr ??? something is wrong with this figures
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Sounds about right:Narayana Rao wrote:Each gun costing 130 to 150 cr ??? something is wrong with this figures
The first contract worth EUR 70 million is for the supply of five 127/54 LW (Light Weight) gun systems: 4 for the ARGE F125 consortium’s F125 frigates, and one (1) for training.
Problem with using a artillery system is that if gun jams or it is rendered useless due to damage there goes your offensive capability. Where as with VLS missile system is quite durable and system will still remain functional even if one of the missiles in a given cell does not ignite.ShivaS wrote:The ships now have switched mostly to missiles instead of long range guns. In theory smart and intelligent projectile guns can be fitted on ships to do similar work of a missile.....
6 inch gun means 152.4 mm approx 153 mm that is really big gun
Oh those romantic movies of Guns of Navarone blasting the rocks, those ships exchanging blows in duel with Bismark
IMO with threat of ballistic and high speed anti ship missiles USN and other navies will focus more on faster low profiles vessels (such as LCS).
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Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Gorshkov Aircraft Carrier Cost India $2.33 Billion: Navy
Seems like someone figured in the Life Cycle costs of maintaining this bad boy in the long term and made sure it had all the correct documentation to modify/upgrade/repair Gorshkov at its will even though it had to pay higher costs upfront.. Good move by the IN.Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier bought from Russia finally cost India $ 2.33 billion, out of which $ 29 million was paid toward services rendered by Indian specialists and another $ 85 million for repair technical documentation.
India had early this year agreed to pay $ 2.33 billion, over three times the $ 974 million it had signed a contract for the 45,000-tonne warship in 2004, after a three-year negotiation.
"The $ 29 million was paid for stationing 40-odd Indian Navy personnel in Russia for over five years since 2004 to assist, monitor and work on the repair and re-equipping of Gorshkov," a Navy officer said here today.
"The $ 85 million for repair technical documentation was for buying all detailed charts, diagrams and instructions for the machinery and equipment that are on-board Gorshkov," the officer said.
The technical documentation was bought as a complete set right away because Gorshkov, rechristened INS Vikramaditya would be the only warship of its class that India was buying from Russia. Its delivery is scheduled for end of 2012.
"With these documents, India can carry on with repair and maintenance of the warship within India independently without having to send the aircraft carrier back to Russia, as we do in the case of Kilo class submarines," he said.
The documentation cost would be much lower than the maintenance and repair cost of the warship if it had to go to Russia for the purpose, leave alone the cost of sailing there and returning to India, he added.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Thats One Billion dollar baby and cant make them in India and spread that money in India...BHEL along with Italian conglomerate Finmechanica may supply as many as 30 heavy duty 127-mm naval guns. With each gun costing Rs 130-150 crore, this means an order worth Rs 4,500 crore.
This the gun as shown in this picture.
Indian Navy - News and Discussion
Previous thread locked. Continuing from: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3960
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
India Inspects Russian Shipyard Repairing Diesel Electric Submarine INS Sindhurakshak
Delegation from Indian defense ministry visited Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center with inspection on Sept 15. The inspection's purpose is beginning of works on Project 877EKM diesel electric submarine INS Sindhurakshak. The sub has been already placed in the dock; unloading of equipment and fitting out of ventilation are also started.
INS Sindhurakshak (S63) is a Sindhughosh-class diesel-electric submarine of the Indian Navy. On February 26, 2010, a sailor aboard the submarine was killed in a fire that broke out in the battery compartment of the submarine while it was docked at Visakhapatnam naval base, though the platform suffered no serious damage.
The delegation is headed by Vice Admiral Nadel Nirajan Kumar, head of department for warships' production and procurement. Delegates viewed the sub, accepted reports from commanding officer, head of the observers' group, and chief of department conducting repairs. The Indian party noted the high level of works arranged by Zvezdochka on subs of that project. The Indian admiral was satisfied with the works' progress.
Perspectives of further repairs of the rest 4 Varshavyanka class subs were discussed specifically. The experience related to INS Sindhukirti shows that there are serious problems with India's attempts to repair those subs independently. Zvezdochka is capable to provide such overhaul within the shortest possible period of time. An unofficial opinion says that it would be more reasonable to repair all four submarines in Zvezdochka.
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4530
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
This is why I am so sceptical of the MOD's insistence that the majority of the subs of the second line be built in India,when we cannot even repair a Kilo class sub of which we have ten! The U-209s were built at snail's pace,the Scorpene's emulating them beautifully and perhaps the fastest programme is the L&T assisted-not forgetting the invaluable assistance of Russis,is the ATV programme today,which has surmounted massiv technological challenges.The IN requires robust capability today not pefection tomorrow.The task is to entify those key techjnologies that the next lot should possess like digital scopes,AIP,very capable sonars and exceptional quietness. posted in the intl. thread the RN's Astute n-atack sub's claimed capablities.
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
Having a sonar that can tell you which ship is leaving karachi harbour while berthed in Kochi base is a definite plus 
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
IAC-3 might be nuclear powered Aircraft carrier
IAC-1 which has been named INS Vikrant has been under construction for a while in Kochi which will be launched by 2012 and will be operational few years later, IAC-2 has already been told will be a CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 65000 ton and plans are there to operate Fixed wings aircrafts like AEW (HAWK EYE 2D) and also ASW aircrafts.
While IAC-3 which will be launched by 2018 and to be deployed by 2025 will be replacement carrier for INS Vikramaditya which will only have service life of 20 to 25 years when inducted by 2012 . Recent discussion with a serving naval officer has disclosed that nuclear propulsion might be used to power the third aircraft carrier.
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
That only happens in Movies or James Bond driven Astute subkit wrote:Having a sonar that can tell you which ship is leaving karachi harbour while berthed in Kochi base is a definite plus
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
Asvini turns 60
*Manish Desai
‘Hrithik Roshan, a gallant officer of the Indian Army and a much reformed gentleman, emerges out of the hospital and walks straight into the waiting arms of Priety Zinta.’ This is the closing scene of 2004 Farhan Akhtar film ‘Lakshya’. But, what is making news today, is the hospital from which Hrithik Roshan emerged after recuperating from the ‘wounds suffered during the Kargil conflict. ‘
INHS Asvini, the tertiary care teaching hospital of the Indian Navy moved into the Diamond Jubilee year on September 18. It is the oldest and the largest hospital of the armed forces. Though the INHS Asvini is celebrating the diamond jubilee of its commissioning in the Indian Navy, the hospital itself has been there for over two centuries, providing medical care to the Mumbai Garrison.
Located in Colaba, the southern most tip of Mumbai city, Asvini is housed in a set of heritage buildings tucked amidst verdant foliage. The journey began in 1756 when it started functioning in barracks as King’s Seamen Hospital for in-patients. Later, it was amalgamated with the Sepoy Hospital for Indian soldiers. The hospital was handed over to the Army in 1863 and remained with it even after India became free of the British rule. It was then known as the Military Hospital, Colaba.
On September 18, 1951, It was commissioned as the first shore hospital of the Indian Navy and was named INHS (Indian Naval Hospital Ship) Asvini, after the twin Asvini Kumars of Hindu mythology who are credited with unmatched knowledge and skills in medicine.
As the years passed by ,bed strength of INHS Asvini increased from 300 to 600 in 1966 and to 792 in 1976. In January 1977, Asvini was classified as a Command Hospital with a bed strength of 825. Other Command Hospitals of the Indian Armed Forces are located in Pune, Bangalore, Kolkata, Lucknow, Chandigarh (Chandimandir) and Udhampur.
Till the early 90s even though the hospital grew in size and capability, no concerted effort had been made to create suitable infrastructure for this flagship hospital of the Indian Navy. In May 1992 the Cabinet Committee on Parliamentary Affairs accorded approval for the modernization plans at an over all cost of Rs 136 crores.
In 1996, work started on the construction of a new building, while restoring the Heritage buildings to their pristine glory. The new building site was adjacent to the existing hospital, and due to Herculean efforts of the hospital staff, patient care was never compromised while the construction of the buildings and the subsequent shift to the new buildings took place.
New ICU unit was set up, the number of Critical Care beds was increased, centrally air conditioned operation theatres were commissioned as part of the modernization plan. A full fledged Cardiothoracic Centre, Radio Therapy unit, Invitro Fertilization unit were also added along with advanced CT Scan and MRI imaging equipment. A modern mechanical laundry replaced the earlier systems of manual washing by dhobies. In place of multiple spread out kitchens a central composite kitchen with all modern gadgets was set up to meet the special needs of the patients. Over the years, INHS Asvini grew from strength to strength with many facilities and departments being added.
In addition to providing state-of-the-art medical care, the hospital is also a teaching institution of repute, recognized by the University of Mumbai for Post-Graduate courses in all major medical and surgical disciplines. Training schools for nursing and para-medical staff are also run at INHS Asvini. Training is coordinated by the Institute of Naval Medicine (INM), which is the only institute in the country to conduct medical research related to divers, submariners and naval aviators. The INM has a diving chamber complex where simulated dives are carried out for research purposes.
While INHS Asvini is primarily a hospital for defence personnel and their families, it does its bit of public service whenever the opportunity arises. The service it rendered during the Gujarat earthquake must find a special mention. Military was the first to reach and surgical teams from INHS Asvini reached Kutch within 6 hours of the disaster. They set up camp in the worst affected areas, treating the injured victims and even delivering babies. The teams were even able to perform some caesarean operations in Kutch. Later, the hospital set up a special 100 bed wing for quake victims, who were shipped in by naval warships from the most distant areas like Kandla. INHS rising to occasion was not unusual as a defence observer remarked “although all hospitals are supposed to have a disaster management cells, the military ones take this responsibility very seriously, as they know the importance of being prepared at all times.”
INHS Asvini today is a large 825 bed hospital with state-of-the-art treatment facilities, blending corporate sophistication with the culture of care and nurture traditional to a service hospital. Over the years, this iconic multi-speciality centre, commanded by Surgeon Rear Admiral KK Singh, has evolved into one of the finest hospitals in the city of Mumbai and become a shining jewel of the Armed Forces Medical Service.
(With inputs from Capt.M Nambiar, Chief PRO, Defence, Mumbai)
Manish Desai is Director (Media), Press Information Bureau, Mumbai
*Manish Desai
‘Hrithik Roshan, a gallant officer of the Indian Army and a much reformed gentleman, emerges out of the hospital and walks straight into the waiting arms of Priety Zinta.’ This is the closing scene of 2004 Farhan Akhtar film ‘Lakshya’. But, what is making news today, is the hospital from which Hrithik Roshan emerged after recuperating from the ‘wounds suffered during the Kargil conflict. ‘
INHS Asvini, the tertiary care teaching hospital of the Indian Navy moved into the Diamond Jubilee year on September 18. It is the oldest and the largest hospital of the armed forces. Though the INHS Asvini is celebrating the diamond jubilee of its commissioning in the Indian Navy, the hospital itself has been there for over two centuries, providing medical care to the Mumbai Garrison.
Located in Colaba, the southern most tip of Mumbai city, Asvini is housed in a set of heritage buildings tucked amidst verdant foliage. The journey began in 1756 when it started functioning in barracks as King’s Seamen Hospital for in-patients. Later, it was amalgamated with the Sepoy Hospital for Indian soldiers. The hospital was handed over to the Army in 1863 and remained with it even after India became free of the British rule. It was then known as the Military Hospital, Colaba.
On September 18, 1951, It was commissioned as the first shore hospital of the Indian Navy and was named INHS (Indian Naval Hospital Ship) Asvini, after the twin Asvini Kumars of Hindu mythology who are credited with unmatched knowledge and skills in medicine.
As the years passed by ,bed strength of INHS Asvini increased from 300 to 600 in 1966 and to 792 in 1976. In January 1977, Asvini was classified as a Command Hospital with a bed strength of 825. Other Command Hospitals of the Indian Armed Forces are located in Pune, Bangalore, Kolkata, Lucknow, Chandigarh (Chandimandir) and Udhampur.
Till the early 90s even though the hospital grew in size and capability, no concerted effort had been made to create suitable infrastructure for this flagship hospital of the Indian Navy. In May 1992 the Cabinet Committee on Parliamentary Affairs accorded approval for the modernization plans at an over all cost of Rs 136 crores.
In 1996, work started on the construction of a new building, while restoring the Heritage buildings to their pristine glory. The new building site was adjacent to the existing hospital, and due to Herculean efforts of the hospital staff, patient care was never compromised while the construction of the buildings and the subsequent shift to the new buildings took place.
New ICU unit was set up, the number of Critical Care beds was increased, centrally air conditioned operation theatres were commissioned as part of the modernization plan. A full fledged Cardiothoracic Centre, Radio Therapy unit, Invitro Fertilization unit were also added along with advanced CT Scan and MRI imaging equipment. A modern mechanical laundry replaced the earlier systems of manual washing by dhobies. In place of multiple spread out kitchens a central composite kitchen with all modern gadgets was set up to meet the special needs of the patients. Over the years, INHS Asvini grew from strength to strength with many facilities and departments being added.
In addition to providing state-of-the-art medical care, the hospital is also a teaching institution of repute, recognized by the University of Mumbai for Post-Graduate courses in all major medical and surgical disciplines. Training schools for nursing and para-medical staff are also run at INHS Asvini. Training is coordinated by the Institute of Naval Medicine (INM), which is the only institute in the country to conduct medical research related to divers, submariners and naval aviators. The INM has a diving chamber complex where simulated dives are carried out for research purposes.
While INHS Asvini is primarily a hospital for defence personnel and their families, it does its bit of public service whenever the opportunity arises. The service it rendered during the Gujarat earthquake must find a special mention. Military was the first to reach and surgical teams from INHS Asvini reached Kutch within 6 hours of the disaster. They set up camp in the worst affected areas, treating the injured victims and even delivering babies. The teams were even able to perform some caesarean operations in Kutch. Later, the hospital set up a special 100 bed wing for quake victims, who were shipped in by naval warships from the most distant areas like Kandla. INHS rising to occasion was not unusual as a defence observer remarked “although all hospitals are supposed to have a disaster management cells, the military ones take this responsibility very seriously, as they know the importance of being prepared at all times.”
INHS Asvini today is a large 825 bed hospital with state-of-the-art treatment facilities, blending corporate sophistication with the culture of care and nurture traditional to a service hospital. Over the years, this iconic multi-speciality centre, commanded by Surgeon Rear Admiral KK Singh, has evolved into one of the finest hospitals in the city of Mumbai and become a shining jewel of the Armed Forces Medical Service.
(With inputs from Capt.M Nambiar, Chief PRO, Defence, Mumbai)
Manish Desai is Director (Media), Press Information Bureau, Mumbai
Re: Indian Navy - News and Discussion
how do you know that the INS Arihant's hull didn't take as much time as the Scorpene has taken ? What makes you say that it is the "fastest programme" when we all know that the INS Arihant has been in the works for decades ?!Philip wrote:The U-209s were built at snail's pace,the Scorpene's emulating them beautifully and perhaps the fastest programme is the L&T assisted-not forgetting the invaluable assistance of Russis,is the ATV programme today,which has surmounted massiv technological challenges.
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Juggi G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
India Navy : A C4ISR Nuclear Force
..:: India Strategic ::..
The author is a specialist navigator, and former Director of Naval Operations and Intelligence.
..:: India Strategic ::..
The author is a specialist navigator, and former Director of Naval Operations and Intelligence.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Beautiful article with ton loads of info and no usual beating about the bush ( civilian use onlee etc)....Thanks for posting that.Juggi G wrote:India Navy : A C4ISR Nuclear Force
..:: India Strategic ::..
The author is a specialist navigator, and former Director of Naval Operations and Intelligence.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-141
Wonder if IN ever showed any interest in procuring this design and pursuing it in India...or even in ordering production of this A/C for Viraat/IAC or Jalashwa just like the Mig 29 K/KUB's.
Also, wondering if it makes any sense in even doing so now....could be a boon for future Indian flat tops and for operating from ALG's/mountains/dispersed area ops/smaller naval/Air stations.
Wonder if IN ever showed any interest in procuring this design and pursuing it in India...or even in ordering production of this A/C for Viraat/IAC or Jalashwa just like the Mig 29 K/KUB's.
Also, wondering if it makes any sense in even doing so now....could be a boon for future Indian flat tops and for operating from ALG's/mountains/dispersed area ops/smaller naval/Air stations.
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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
One error though, he gives an impression of shaurya a working missile. There has been no interest from forces on it yet.sum wrote:Beautiful article with ton loads of info and no usual beating about the bush ( civilian use onlee etc)....Thanks for posting that.Juggi G wrote:India Navy : A C4ISR Nuclear Force
..:: India Strategic ::..
The author is a specialist navigator, and former Director of Naval Operations and Intelligence.
Once when I spoke to him, he mentioned ISRO growing as its far away from Delhi decision making. He was bit specific that since "people from South" are involved in all aspects, corruption did not kill the institution. he is very positive abt ISRO.
The Indian version of CENTRIX he is talking about sheds more light on the what Adm (redt) S Mehta told us
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Mukesh.Kumar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
A question to all guru's. Is there any submarine being built for India in Severodvinsk @ Sevmash.
Just back a trip from the region and was surprised to hear a rumor from a 'chaiwala' on something like this.
Just back a trip from the region and was surprised to hear a rumor from a 'chaiwala' on something like this.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
One Kilo is undergoing a MLU that is what I am aware of.
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Mukesh.Kumar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
@ Pratyush: Thanks for the clarification. Was really surprised by the bit of news. As far as I had known it was only the Gorshkov being worked on at SEVMASH.
Slightly OT, but seems that the whole region out there is in the know about "Vikramaditya" being fitted out at Severodvinsk. As an Indian, you are automatically misidentified as a Naval officer.
Slightly OT, but seems that the whole region out there is in the know about "Vikramaditya" being fitted out at Severodvinsk. As an Indian, you are automatically misidentified as a Naval officer.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
well wasnt the Akula we are getting built at sevmash?
I am hoping against hope the two unfinished Oscar2 hulls lying on a drydock were at sevmash? and that we have purchased atleast one
I am hoping against hope the two unfinished Oscar2 hulls lying on a drydock were at sevmash? and that we have purchased atleast one
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
May be (Hopefully) the one laid down in 1994 @Komsomolsk is the "INS Chakra-II"
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Isnt it the Yasen class attack sub being fabricated there?
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Thomas Kolarek
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Indian Kilos
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
You may remember the discussion a few years back about the JFK being 'sold' to India. Well here you go—the USN will probably donate it if the IN wants it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/us/19ship.html?hpw
"The John F. Kennedy, an aircraft carrier christened by a 9-year-old Caroline Kennedy in 1967 and decommissioned three years ago, needs a place to retire. The Navy wants to donate it. If no viable host can be found, the carrier that aided United States military operations in Beirut and Operation Desert Storm will be turned into scrap."
Reverse engineering anyone? Even as scrap it's valuable...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/us/19ship.html?hpw
"The John F. Kennedy, an aircraft carrier christened by a 9-year-old Caroline Kennedy in 1967 and decommissioned three years ago, needs a place to retire. The Navy wants to donate it. If no viable host can be found, the carrier that aided United States military operations in Beirut and Operation Desert Storm will be turned into scrap."
Reverse engineering anyone? Even as scrap it's valuable...
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
And Buy 90 Superhornets for Airwing of the old Lady. The Uncle gets the name of donating a carrier and maintaining the stability in the region.
I find it surprising there is still takers in India for this.
I find it surprising there is still takers in India for this.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^ No it will not be donated to anybody for military purposes. The U.S. Navy is looking to donate the decommissioned aircraft carrier John F. Kennedy, under the condition it be used only as a museum or memorial.
Vishnu.nv, I have a question. How would it be different from the Gorshkov + Mig-29K deal? Oh yes, we paid for the Gorshkov which was "donated" to us!
You are giving a wrong reason for not acquiring the super-carrier! We don't have the carrier-battle-group to go with it. How could we deploy this super-carrier even if we had got it for free?
Besides, this particular ship is beyond our grasp, but if I would get it for free, then why not? Can you answer a few questions for me?
1. We wouldn't be able to build such a ship for some time to come. Why not train the guys and develop strategies and hone them till our super carrier appears?
2. Why not have a floating platform for the E-2C Hawkeye which the IN would like to deploy?
3. Why not reverse engineer?
4. What's stopping us from deploying Mig-29Ks (if you are a fan of the Mig-29Ks over the Super hornet) on the carrier?
5. Can you imagine the kind of chills this would have sent down Chipanda!
You ask, why fall into Uncle's gameplan. I look at it as using Uncle in our gameplan. If they credit, the hell I care. I just care for what we get!
Vishnu.nv, I have a question. How would it be different from the Gorshkov + Mig-29K deal? Oh yes, we paid for the Gorshkov which was "donated" to us!
You are giving a wrong reason for not acquiring the super-carrier! We don't have the carrier-battle-group to go with it. How could we deploy this super-carrier even if we had got it for free?
Besides, this particular ship is beyond our grasp, but if I would get it for free, then why not? Can you answer a few questions for me?
1. We wouldn't be able to build such a ship for some time to come. Why not train the guys and develop strategies and hone them till our super carrier appears?
2. Why not have a floating platform for the E-2C Hawkeye which the IN would like to deploy?
3. Why not reverse engineer?
4. What's stopping us from deploying Mig-29Ks (if you are a fan of the Mig-29Ks over the Super hornet) on the carrier?
5. Can you imagine the kind of chills this would have sent down Chipanda!
You ask, why fall into Uncle's gameplan. I look at it as using Uncle in our gameplan. If they credit, the hell I care. I just care for what we get!
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Given that the IAC's are still some time away, it may actually turn out to be a good idea. Do remember reading some where that the Navy did explore the Sup. hornets too..only did not have a cat. equiped carrier for them.
Given that Navy wants 300+ A/C - buying the Sup. hornets may actually be a good idea...if the USN would allow a military use of the carrier...if we were to buy the planes, I am sure they would agree..who knows, may even agree to provide financing
This may be a good way to get them off our backs from the MMRCA competition, and Sup. Hornets are great as Naval Aircraft...IN could operate both SH as well as NLCA from it
Given that Navy wants 300+ A/C - buying the Sup. hornets may actually be a good idea...if the USN would allow a military use of the carrier...if we were to buy the planes, I am sure they would agree..who knows, may even agree to provide financing
This may be a good way to get them off our backs from the MMRCA competition, and Sup. Hornets are great as Naval Aircraft...IN could operate both SH as well as NLCA from it
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
@@ Jai^^^
And, return it to the city of Portland, ME as a museum after we've used it FWIW as a training (non-combatant) facility. Great gesture wot? Beats having to beach at Alang and absorb the toxiins. Throw in $2MM as a contribution to the 'Museum'.
You learn a lot about hydraulics, best practices and dos and don'ts —the knowledge-base.
JMT
And, return it to the city of Portland, ME as a museum after we've used it FWIW as a training (non-combatant) facility. Great gesture wot? Beats having to beach at Alang and absorb the toxiins. Throw in $2MM as a contribution to the 'Museum'.
You learn a lot about hydraulics, best practices and dos and don'ts —the knowledge-base.
JMT
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Check this article out,arguing why the PN should buy the U-214.I've been advocating fraeons that we should by U-214s to replace our U-209s apart from the second lne.Later on,we can merge the three lines ino one or two (litoral ops and long range multi-ocean class) for our convenional sub capability.Germany was reluctant to sell Pak U-boats for obvious reasons and we should stymie the Pakis and prevent hem fom acquiring German sub tech,which would make tem possessors of two kinds of AIP boats,fuel-cell and MESMA,and make them also possess both German and French advanced undersea weapon systems.
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/09/i ... tacks.html
In Pursuit of Type-214 (Brasstacks)
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/09/i ... tacks.html
In Pursuit of Type-214 (Brasstacks)
With new developments regarding the purchase of new attack submarines for Pakistan Navy, Brasstacks analyses in depth the repercussions of recent news to buy Chinese submarines once again dumping the much needed German Type 214 submarines.
There are reports that the government is eyeing acquisition of Chinese smaller submarines, which once again tantamount to risking the national defense, especially keeping in view the Indian ambitions to create naval hegemony in the Indian Ocean by outclassing Pakistani and Chinese navies.
This paper is a continuation of our earlier analysis of the same matter discussed in last month’s issue of Brasstacks; wherein we have explored the pros and cons of choosing French Submarines ignoring the German bid. In this paper we give you a more meticulous rationale regarding why Pakistan Navy requires German submarine Type 214 instead of the Chinese or French.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
That’s the problem with the Donations which I am referring to. Groskov was accepted in a time period where we don’t have a carrier. The IAC program was only evolving. No we have two carrier programs right on track and no way we need such a super junk.indranilroy wrote:^^^ No it will not be donated to anybody for military purposes. The U.S. Navy is looking to donate the decommissioned aircraft carrier John F. Kennedy, under the condition it be used only as a museum or memorial.
Vishnu.nv, I have a question. How would it be different from the Gorshkov + Mig-29K deal? Oh yes, we paid for the Gorshkov which was "donated" to us!
You are giving a wrong reason for not acquiring the super-carrier! We don't have the carrier-battle-group to go with it. How could we deploy this super-carrier even if we had got it for free?
Besides, this particular ship is beyond our grasp, but if I would get it for free, then why not? Can you answer a few questions for me?
1. We wouldn't be able to build such a ship for some time to come. Why not train the guys and develop strategies and hone them till our super carrier appears?
2. Why not have a floating platform for the E-2C Hawkeye which the IN would like to deploy?
3. Why not reverse engineer?
4. What's stopping us from deploying Mig-29Ks (if you are a fan of the Mig-29Ks over the Super hornet) on the carrier?
5. Can you imagine the kind of chills this would have sent down Chipanda!
You ask, why fall into Uncle's gameplan. I look at it as using Uncle in our gameplan. If they credit, the hell I care. I just care for what we get!
I will give my opinions for your questions.
1. It’s not easy to operate a super carrier, certainly not on IN budget. Another MRCA deal for carrier born fighters?
2. Why not spend money better on Merlin based AEW or get V-22 based AEW.
3. Reverse Engineer a carrier? We aren’t China.
4. American docs which also comes free with carrier. Ask TSP why their F-16 can’t fly above an altitude over any other airspace.
5. Imagine the Strain it will put on IN Budget. We don’t even have a dock for repairing such a ship. Every time it has to visit Uncle and we will be getting regular bills.
What you thing getting carrier from Uncle will make uncle Fight our wars? Money better spend will be to get a French-British carrier with Indian Nuclear propulsion and PAK-FA , 29K combo.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Nice thought about the JFK,but impractical.It would consume so much of the N's budget too.Though we ned carriers for froce projection,our top priority right now is pefecting N -sub building (for the nuclear deterrent) and conventional sub-building too,whch has yet to be perfected.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Isn't the navy still in requirement of bigger and more ACs?vishnu.nv wrote:
That’s the problem with the Donations which I am referring to. Groskov was accepted in a time period where we don’t have a carrier. The IAC program was only evolving. No we have two carrier programs right on track and no way we need such a super junk.
1. Who said it was easy. I was pointing out that it is not. We can learn how to do it by the time our supercarrier comes in. If I am reading the trend properly, IN is surely moving towards super carriers.vishnu.nv wrote: I will give my opinions for your questions.
1. It’s not easy to operate a super carrier, certainly not on IN budget. Another MRCA deal for carrier born fighters?
2. Why not spend money better on Merlin based AEW or get V-22 based AEW.
3. Reverse Engineer a carrier? We aren’t China.
4. American docs which also comes free with carrier. Ask TSP why their F-16 can’t fly above an altitude over any other airspace.
5. Imagine the Strain it will put on IN Budget. We don’t even have a dock for repairing such a ship. Every time it has to visit Uncle and we will be getting regular bills.
What you thing getting carrier from Uncle will make uncle Fight our wars? Money better spend will be to get a French-British carrier with Indian Nuclear propulsion and PAK-FA , 29K combo.
2. I don't know why IN didn't choose the Merlin-based AEW or V-22 based AEW inspite of having platforms to operate them already. So if you ask me, I don't know the answer and requirements of the IN to the effect of answering them. I have just chosen to rely on their judgement.I can only say that you are speaking of things from the future and IN wanted a tested platform.
3. Why shouldn't we? Reverse engineer is a term here. You can always learn from what the structures should look like, how big, how strong etc. Nobody will teach you how to build it.
4. We have been operating Jalashwa as we have wanted it to.
5. I told you before hand that you were giving the wrong reasons. We can't operate a carrier just like that. The logistics and CBG are more critical to maintain than the AC itself. repairing a AC doesn't run into billions unless you do a total overhaul like the one we did with Vikramaditya.
You seem to rant on without answering any of the questions. Your question seems to be "Why from America"?
America is not going to fight our wars. You are trying to contort what I said. I said we should get what is suitable for us. Whether the others gain/lose from that is not our prerogative. The French-British carrier is not as big as JFK, and doesn't come free. You will have to buy aircrafts for them too and even there you would go for the F-18s or the Rafales. None of them come cheap. the Indian nuclear plant is yet to see operations. You are speaking of combinations of the future. And well ofcourse money is being spent there.
This proposal by Cosmos (although wrong in first place) was for a dekho/operationalization of a super-carrier for almost free. And going by Jalashwa (and PN's OHPs), they really come almost free.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^ Regarding the acquisition on US supercarrier, It is a bad idea IMO. Simply because the learning curve for a ship of that kind is too steep. It is better to go for IAC2 at 65000 tons and then go all the way yo to the SC size if it is required. But that in turn will require the Navy to start thinking and planning about a 350 ship navy. With whole gamut of assets and ships.
Will they take such a leap?
Will they take such a leap?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I would say what navy require now mostly is not a super carrier. What we need to today is more Nuclear subs, both SSN/SSGN SSBN types. ASW assets like P-8I, shore based refueler aircrafts, more frigates flattops etc. we have two carriers in construction and hardly have the assets to form two CBG. You are getting me wrong, even if the Russians are offering a new 90000 tones super carrier for free, i would say no. We need to have big carriers, but priority is to focus on getting IAC and vikramadithya in service ASAP.indranilroy wrote:Isn't the navy still in requirement of bigger and more ACs?vishnu.nv wrote:
That’s the problem with the Donations which I am referring to. Groskov was accepted in a time period where we don’t have a carrier. The IAC program was only evolving. No we have two carrier programs right on track and no way we need such a super junk.
1. Who said it was easy. I was pointing out that it is not. We can learn how to do it by the time our supercarrier comes in. If I am reading the trend properly, IN is surely moving towards super carriers.vishnu.nv wrote: I will give my opinions for your questions.
1. It’s not easy to operate a super carrier, certainly not on IN budget. Another MRCA deal for carrier born fighters?
2. Why not spend money better on Merlin based AEW or get V-22 based AEW.
3. Reverse Engineer a carrier? We aren’t China.
4. American docs which also comes free with carrier. Ask TSP why their F-16 can’t fly above an altitude over any other airspace.
5. Imagine the Strain it will put on IN Budget. We don’t even have a dock for repairing such a ship. Every time it has to visit Uncle and we will be getting regular bills.
What you thing getting carrier from Uncle will make uncle Fight our wars? Money better spend will be to get a French-British carrier with Indian Nuclear propulsion and PAK-FA , 29K combo.
2. I don't know why IN didn't choose the Merlin-based AEW or V-22 based AEW inspite of having platforms to operate them already. So if you ask me, I don't know the answer and requirements of the IN to the effect of answering them. I have just chosen to rely on their judgement.I can only say that you are speaking of things from the future and IN wanted a tested platform.
3. Why shouldn't we? Reverse engineer is a term here. You can always learn from what the structures should look like, how big, how strong etc. Nobody will teach you how to build it.
4. We have been operating Jalashwa as we have wanted it to.
5. I told you before hand that you were giving the wrong reasons. We can't operate a carrier just like that. The logistics and CBG are more critical to maintain than the AC itself. repairing a AC doesn't run into billions unless you do a total overhaul like the one we did with Vikramaditya.
You seem to rant on without answering any of the questions. Your question seems to be "Why from America"?
America is not going to fight our wars. You are trying to contort what I said. I said we should get what is suitable for us. Whether the others gain/lose from that is not our prerogative. The French-British carrier is not as big as JFK, and doesn't come free. You will have to buy aircrafts for them too and even there you would go for the F-18s or the Rafales. None of them come cheap. the Indian nuclear plant is yet to see operations. You are speaking of combinations of the future. And well ofcourse money is being spent there.
This proposal by Cosmos (although wrong in first place) was for a dekho/operationalization of a super-carrier for almost free. And going by Jalashwa (and PN's OHPs), they really come almost free.
Now coming to JFK , US have almost 5000 men and women working on that any point of time. Consider 2 batches of crew, does the navy has this much manpower to spare ? It carries almost 80 modern fighters, will US donate that also? Else how much would it cost for 80 Fighters ? Does IN have such large pool of pilots?
1. Refer my above points you could see billions of money spent in years and years of time to have this capability by the US. We are growing in the right direction and enough money is streamed by the IN for getting its CBG. We are growing and in a day we will have super carriers. The cost of additional ships to form CGB is another factor where I am not going at this point of time.
2. AEW is required for fleet defence. When we are operating far away from our shores we need to have a prolonged AEW cover for long periods. The RN is going for Merlin based AEW , and IN has shown some interest in V-22 based AEW models which developed both can work from any flat tops in our fleet.
3. I feel there is no point in discussing this. The IN has a sound plan ahead growing naturally to bigger designs with nuclear propulsion.
4. Jalashwa is hardly an offensive platform. We accepted this since a genuine need for such a ship was felt after the tsunami.
5. And what make u feel there won’t be a need to overhaul this AC? Do we have the capability to repair that in India? What is the cost of sending the carrier every time to US?
As I said I don’t have anything against US gear. My only problem is with their policies, for example why we can’t integrate a brhamos on P-8I? Will they allow our 29-K’s to operate from AC? The answer is NO. If they want to help, help us with LCA.
We are suffering already with an AC which we got almost free. Do we need another saga?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Vishnu,
As far as getting the JFK or any other super carrier goes, from my first post, I have pointed out that we don't have the logistics. And that in itself is one of the primary reasons why we shouldn't get the ship even if we got it free.
Regarding whether we have the capability to man such a ship. Well someday, we have to. The sooner we start preparing for it, the better.
I actually thought from your first post that you were calling this a sinister business plan to some of us fool-hardy Ameri-fans.
I have always said this, and I will always say it. I don't care where it comes from as long as it is useful to us. Whether somebody earns through us or loses through us is non of my concern. I think in matters of national defence, all that matters is what we gain. With this I shall lay my case.
As far as getting the JFK or any other super carrier goes, from my first post, I have pointed out that we don't have the logistics. And that in itself is one of the primary reasons why we shouldn't get the ship even if we got it free.
Regarding whether we have the capability to man such a ship. Well someday, we have to. The sooner we start preparing for it, the better.
I actually thought from your first post that you were calling this a sinister business plan to some of us fool-hardy Ameri-fans.
It turns out that you were not. So there is no discord.And Buy 90 Superhornets for Airwing of the old Lady. The Uncle gets the name of donating a carrier and maintaining the stability in the region.
I find it surprising there is still takers in India for this.
I have always said this, and I will always say it. I don't care where it comes from as long as it is useful to us. Whether somebody earns through us or loses through us is non of my concern. I think in matters of national defence, all that matters is what we gain. With this I shall lay my case.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Ajai Shukla: Making warships happen
I was taken aback last week to receive an invitation from BAE Systems, the world’s third-richest arms corporation, for a four-day media tour to the UK. What surprised me was not the invitation. The rate at which India is buying up foreign weaponry, global arms merchants, eager for publicity, would happily pay for our small defence journalist community to globetrot through the year. What was remarkable in the BAE invitation was the company’s proposal to fly us to Glasgow for the launch of a new Royal Navy destroyer and a tour of other warships. Why, I wondered, was British shipbuilding being showcased to India in the absence of a plan to buy a warship from the UK?
A few phone calls later I had my answer! A cash-strapped UK defence ministry, unable to pay for the two aircraft carriers on order with BAE Systems, had offered one of them to New Delhi. In the circumstances, a few news reports in India on “high-quality British shipbuilding” could only be useful.
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The government of India must quickly decline the British offer. London could be forgiven for concluding from the fact that four Indian warships are on order from Russian shipyards, and the Indian Navy wants to build more abroad, that Indian shipyards cannot meet the country’s maritime security needs. The truth, however, is that India looks abroad for warships because of the MoD’s inability to streamline planning, sanctions and procedures, and to bring together the skills of the multiple agencies that contribute towards developing and building a warship.
Consider our production facilities. The MoD owns and controls four defence shipyards: Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL); Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE); Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL); and the recently (and misguidedly) acquired Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, Visakhapatnam (HSL). Then there is Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL), a central PSU, which is building an aircraft carrier for the MoD since none of the MoD shipyards has facilities large enough for this. And, very recently, there is the emergence of state-of-the-art private sector shipyards — L&T, Pipavav and ABG Shipyards — with global-quality facilities.
Also in the production loop is the Directorate General of Naval Design (DGND), which has achieved notable success in the conceptual design of the Indian Navy’s recent warships. Each shipyard, too, has its own design department, which translates the DGND’s conceptual design into engineering drawings of the thousands of components that make up a ship. Then there are Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratories, which produce high-technology systems like sonars, radars, torpedoes etc., many of which money cannot buy. The existence of these technology labs is a key attribute of a warship-building country.
Finally, there are the educational institutions that feed into, and off, these agencies: the departments of naval architecture in IITs and universities; research departments in colleges and universities that feed into DRDO laboratories and assist them by taking on research projects.
India has, in varying degrees, every component of this ecosystem. The MoD must bring them together, compensating for one component’s weaknesses by harnessing another’s strengths. Instead, South Block’s proclivity to view each entity individually creates the impression of a shortfall of capacity.
Consider how the MoD is processing India’s second submarine line, allowing two of the six submarines to be built abroad although massive capacities will lie unutilised in L&T and Pipavav (Business Standard has carried a four-article series on this from August 30 to September 2). Here is the MoD’s logic: Pipavav has the facilities but not the experience; L&T has the experience, but not the facilities; MDL has both, but it doesn’t have the capacity!
Astonishingly, South Block considers it preferable to buy submarines from a foreign shipyard, rather than bringing together Indian capabilities that could produce them far cheaper, create jobs and build capacities. The MoD must be stopped from building abroad. India needs a significant navy but it can only afford to build up quickly if the MoD brings together the warship-building eco-system. Indian money must build Indian capabilities, not pay for British shipbuilding industry to survive.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I agree with most of the points made. The PSU Ship yards can not deliver and they dont want to give work to private sector which can do the job. Babus in MOD are most useless bunch in the service
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Why Ajai Shukla is "astonished" is beyond me. We are already executing plans for building warships and capabilities with Indian monies. Just because this deal benefits the British industry doesn't make it a bad idea. He is missing the wood for the trees. We're getting a huge aircraft carrier in pretty quick time and can be a huge force multiplier in the seas much ahead of the envisioned time to put pressure on our over ambitious neighbours. At the same time, we could use to learn a huge deal before we begin building our subsequent carriers.Ajai Shukla wrote:Astonishingly, South Block considers it preferable to buy submarines from a foreign shipyard, rather than bringing together Indian capabilities that could produce them far cheaper, create jobs and build capacities. The MoD must be stopped from building abroad. India needs a significant navy but it can only afford to build up quickly if the MoD brings together the warship-building eco-system. Indian money must build Indian capabilities, not pay for British shipbuilding industry to survive
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
It needs to first start with Politcal Will , Babus will agree if political will exists. Politically it will create an uproar if PSU are overlooked over private yard.Narayana Rao wrote:I agree with most of the points made. The PSU Ship yards can not deliver and they dont want to give work to private sector which can do the job. Babus in MOD are most useless bunch in the service
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Mukesh.Kumar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
@ Singha: I was kinda hoping the same too and wrote on the board to see if anyone had more concrete info.
From what the 'chaiwala' told me, there seems to be a pretty sizable Indian Navy contingent around. Seems there was some big celebration around mid-July with a priest around and all.
From what the 'chaiwala' told me, there seems to be a pretty sizable Indian Navy contingent around. Seems there was some big celebration around mid-July with a priest around and all.