Indian Military Helicopters

[arun]

X Posted from the "Indian Military Aviation" thread.

India to get Longbow radars for Apaches

And so of the 22 AH-64E Apache on order, a little more than half the Apache’s ie: 12 will be Longbow equipped.

Meanwhile for good order the Lockheed Martin press release informing order for the Longbow:

India becomes 11th International Customer for LONGBOW LLC’s Apache Radar

ORLANDO, Fla., April 30, 2016 – The U.S. Army awarded LONGBOW Limited Liability Company (LLC) a $57.1 million foreign military sale contract to provide the Indian Air Force with LONGBOW Fire Control Radar (FCR) systems for their new Apache AH-64E helicopters. LONGBOW LLC is a joint venture of Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) and Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC).

Under this contract, $57.1 million is obligated to LONGBOW LLC with a total value not to exceed $116.7 million. The contract covers the production of 12 LONGBOW FCR systems and spares for India. Production will extend through early 2019 at Lockheed Martin’s Orlando and Ocala, Florida, facilities and at Northrop Grumman’s Baltimore facility.

“With LONGBOW FCR, the Indian Air Force will receive a rapid all-weather targeting capability,” said Jim Messina, LONGBOW LLC president and director of LONGBOW programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “The FCR’s air over-watch mode provides aircrews with 360-degree situational awareness, improving survivability and mission success.”

“Our highly reliable LONGBOW FCR has been repeatedly proven in combat, protecting warfighters around the globe at an affordable cost,” said Ike Song, vice president, Mission Solutions, Northrop Grumman’s Land & Avionics C4ISR Division.

For more than a decade, the LONGBOW FCR has enabled Apache aircrews to automatically detect, locate, classify and prioritize targets. It enables rapid, multi-target engagement in all weather, over multiple terrains and through battlefield obscurants.

[Philip]

Zynda,a couple of air shows ago I was shocked to see the sophistication of the interiors of an MI-17VVIP helo. One usually associates Russian wares with toughness but lesser refinement than western wares.The interiors of the MI-17 were in no way inferior to any western helo.The only advantage of the AW-101 over the MI-17 is that it has 3 engines and may accommodate more passrs. The MI-17V is the world's finest helo battle tested in almost every theatre. It also costs a huge amt. less! We have approx. 200+ such helos ,with more on the anvil,which will make it v. easy to operate.

What is astonishing in the latest exposes is the long list of babus associated with the deal who benefited enormously with plum postings,gubernatorial posts like KMN,the former Def Sec now the CAG,etc.! The "fruits" of the deal were well distributed by the UPA regime. Snake-Oil Singh should be behind bars as the buck stops with him.

Media reports about HAL's deal to make 200 Kamov LUHs,location yet to be finalized,Nasik o somewhere else,with the first 60 delivered in knockdown condition and the rest to be made in India.Number could go up in the future..4000 desi vendors will benefit

[Cybaru]

If they really wanted to do a joint venture with Kamov, they should have done it either with Mi17 or Mi38. That would have been better option for us, leaving the LUH category completely for HAL as there isn't an inhouse project yet for the IMRH.

[shiv]

If they really wanted to do a joint venture with Kamov,

Please tell me that you know why the Ka 226 was selected and you still choose to say this despite knowing the facts

[Cybaru]

If they really wanted to do a joint venture with Kamov,

Please tell me that you know why the Ka 226 was selected and you still choose to say this despite knowing the facts

I don't understand why the Ka-226 was chosen when we have a LUH bird that is getting qualified in that space by mid next year.

It seemed we wanted to play with a private player in this space and HAL will *perhaps* eventually subcontract a large portion of it to reliance as they have the right to co-opt a private player for their 50.5% of share (http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 029_1.html). We also have to chase down foreign vendors and sign independent deals for indigenization.

Other than quid pro quo, I can't think of any reason. What am I missing?

[shiv]

I don't understand why the Ka-226 was chosen when we have a LUH bird that is getting qualified in that space by mid next year.

Helicopters are seeing the same problem that we are seeing with MMRCA. Old machines need to be retired, but need to be replaced by new ones.

As I see it the difference between the MMRCA issue and the Cheetah/Ka-226 is that the Indian army will have no helicopters to serve hi altitude areas unless the Cheetahs are replaced. The Ka 226 will be available pretty much off the shelf as a replacement, while a manufacturing line is being set up. The LUH, like the LCA is not ready yet.

The LCA first flew in 2001. It is going to enter service in a limited way by end 2016. not seriously but yes - it will get there

The ALH fiest flew in 1992, and deliveries started in 2002

The LUH has not flown yet. It will likely take another 10 years for induction, just like the LCA and ALH. Not before 2026. Personally, I have faith in HAL, but we can't predict the uncertainties that can cause setbacks of 1 to 5 years.

The only option is to agree with Pakistan and withdraw from Siachen and stop supplying helicopter supplied troops in the NE, or go for the Ka 226.

India has a requirement of thousands of helos and once the LUH comes that will fly in parallel. I see nothing wrong with that. My views.

[Kakkaji]

Dr Shiv +1

[Viv S]

The LCA first flew in 2001. It is going to enter service in a limited way by end 2016. not seriously but yes - it will get there

The ALH fiest flew in 1992, and deliveries started in 2002

The LUH has not flown yet. It will likely take another 10 years for induction, just like the LCA and ALH. Not before 2026. Personally, I have faith in HAL, but we can't predict the uncertainties that can cause setbacks of 1 to 5 years.

HAL LCH first flight - 2010. Predicted induction? 2020?

India has a requirement of thousands of helos and once the LUH comes that will fly in parallel. I see nothing wrong with that. My views.

There's nothing wrong in flying in parallel. The issue is manufacturing in parallel. Which is basically equivalent to cannibalizing a domestic market to support a foreign OEM.

If the bulk of the Ka-226s will be delivered by the time the LCH deliveries start, that's perfectly alright. If however, they both run in parallel then that's an Indian product losing out on economies of scale and export competitiveness (instead of using the import purely as a stopgap, as every normal country in the world does it).

[shiv]

If the bulk of the Ka-226s will be delivered by the time the LCH deliveries start, that's perfectly alright. If however, they both run in parallel then that's an Indian product losing out on economies of scale and export competitiveness (instead of using the import purely as a stopgap, as every normal country in the world does it).

Perfectly valid as an argument, but since we can keep on arguing about imponderable unpredcitables the news says India can manufacture "up to 400 Ka 226". True - if the LUH is delayed enough. But if the LUH is not delayed, the end of the Ka 226 line will dovetail with the start of the LUH line. So nothing of the sort you predict may actually happen. Please get back to me on this in 10 years or when the LUH gets inducted and we can restart the discussion.

Meanwhile..

My last post on this because I think I will waste my time arguing about little points that you feel strongly about. It is your right to feel the way you feel and I am not really interested in saying anything more. Thanks for your inputs.

[Cybaru]

The only option is to agree with Pakistan and withdraw from Siachen and stop supplying helicopter supplied troops in the NE, or go for the Ka 226.

India has a requirement of thousands of helos and once the LUH comes that will fly in parallel. I see nothing wrong with that. My views.

I think we are adding enough Dhruvs to not worry about retiring the older copters from siachen duty. With over 200 dhruvs (wiki), we have enough to ensure that troops get supplied in siachen.

Yes, I agree that certification takes time and delays can happen, but delays can also happen to get all the final agreements in place and to get the vendors to comply with the offset clauses. It will be a few years before we will see KA-226T even though there is an agreement signed.

The Ka-226T according to Viveks calculations seem to have half the payload of LUH (shakti) to siachen. So no real advantage here as far as the platform goes.

We don't have a plan yet to make IMRH or atleast those plans haven't taken roots yet. Since there is a bigger requirement in that space especially to haul large payloads like guns/vehicles/troops to various mountainous regions esp in emergencies and war. That sector may have been better served as we will continue to purchase for a significant portion of future time to fill the void in our stables. This segment really gives a unique advantage as it moves more people/machines and acts as a better deterrent by allowing reduced response time to react. Producing this at home will allow us to really meet/fill our needs/deficiencies and not wait for long tenders and clearances before purchase.

IMO the medium/heavy segment would have been better to fill with a joint venture rather than the LUH segment. It's possible to tide over LUH segment with somewhat incompatible and heavier ALH filling the role of LUH for a bit longer, till HAL-LUH takes over. But it is almost impossible to use ALH for Medium/Heavy category.

[shiv]

It suddenly strikes me that the Russians always want a separate location in India for the manufacture of their stuff. I suspect that is why a Tumkur plant is being set up for helicopters. And by the time Ka-226 winds down, the LUH should be able to fulfil its projected role
Meanwhile - for the record
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 029_1.html

The defence ministry has assured HAL it will buy about 200 LUH. With the IGA assuring Russian Helicopters that India would buy 200 choppers, the bulk of the order for the remaining 200 would fall to whichever manufacturer delivers 200 helicopters first.

[shiv]

I think we are adding enough Dhruvs to not worry about retiring the older copters from siachen duty.

The information I have is that there are a lot of hi altitude mini helipads that are not suitable for the Dhruv in terms of size. That aside when it comes to rescue from heights where there are no helipads , the Cheetah holds an absolute record of 12,000 meters, which the Dhruv, though better than others of its class has reached about 8-9000 meters.

Problem is absolute heights reached do not translate to heights at which the helo can safely land and take off - which is one of the issues currently in the news about the Agusta's 4500 meter ceiling

[Cybaru]

That can be a complication and perhaps a reason for investing in KA-226T, but what use would that be if the helicopter cannot deliver anything useful to the mini helipad? Also the rotor area or footprint is very similar to ALH so not sure how this would land on the mini helipad???

From the helicopter analysis thread:

The Kamov model has visibly different performance owing to its different design concept. A combination of high empty mass, contra-rotating rotors and higher available power means that the tail-off in performance for this design is different from the Bell and Eurocopter models. The performance of the Kamov design generally tails-off faster than its competitors at higher altitudes. There is a substantial difference in hover performance between the Kamov design and others beyond 15,000 ft altitude and this difference only increases as altitude increases. When similar pilot, fuel and rate-of-climb effects are added, the Kamov design’s payload capacity is negligible beyond ~16,000 ft altitude.

Dimensions of SA15B
Length: 10.24 m (33 ft 7¼ in)
Main rotor diameter: 11.02 m (36 ft 1¾ in)

Dimensions of ALH
Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 0.8 in)
Rotor diameter: 13.20 m (43 ft 3.7 in)

Dimensions of KA-226T
Length: 8.1 m (25 ft 7 in)
Main rotor diameter: 2× 13 m (42 ft 8 in)

[shiv]

It is the ALH length (52 feet) plus tail rotor (add 5 feet) that far exceeds the no tail rotor Ka 226

[shiv]

That can be a complication and perhaps a reason for investing in KA-226T, but what use would that be if the helicopter cannot deliver anything useful to the mini helipad?

The only answer i have for this, and I cannot ask you or anyone else to agree with me. it is me and me alone. I trust the IAF to make the right choice.

[Cybaru]

It is the ALH length (52 feet) plus tail rotor (add 5 feet) that far exceeds the no tail rotor Ka 226

Okay continue to add a dozen brand new cheetah's to the stable to serve those few mini helipads. Aren't they still making it for Nambia?

IMO there isn't a good reason to add Ka-226T. We should have gone with the heavier segment.

[shiv]

It is the ALH length (52 feet) plus tail rotor (add 5 feet) that far exceeds the no tail rotor Ka 226

Okay continue to add a dozen brand new cheetah's to the stable to serve those few mini helipads. Aren't they still making it for Nambia?

IMO there isn't a good reason to add Ka-226T. We should have gone with the heavier segment.

You are entitled to your views. I am not going to try and change them. I have my views on this and am not going any further to explain what obsolescence means for using an outdated helo with no scope for updation in hazardous Himalayan circumstances using the logic that what's good for Namibia should be good for the IAF.

[Cybaru]

Just because it has no fancy screen does not make it obsolete. If its brand new and bought just to service these hard to reach mini-helipads it serves the purpose and has done for the last 40 years. Other reachable areas can be served by the ALH. We have the expertise and the knowhow to keep this unit in service for a long time. We are not adding anything new.

It wasn't that it is good or bad for Namibia/iaf, but the production line is still open and we can order a few just for those hard to reach minipads!

[deejay]

It is the ALH length (52 feet) plus tail rotor (add 5 feet) that far exceeds the no tail rotor Ka 226

Shiv Ji, not specifically responding to you but starting from your quote to say a whole lot of things all over again and some new things too.

Helicopter length and rotor dia are not determining factor but, weight and CG position along with skid/wheel size are important.

Seriously folks, IA is not a fool to insist on something smaller and lighter (lesser weight carrying craft) if something heavier could do it. Specially since they already have something heavier.

Plus, there is a definite need for "light" class and it is urgent. Our Cheetahs and Chetaks are barely pulling along now. More than IAF, it is the IA Aviation Corps which is in need of the light helicopter. The need of light helicopters is in large numbers and not a small batch of helicopters.

IA /IAF/ IN / ICG have regularly used Cheetahs and Chetaks from training, communication, Air OP, Recce, SAR, CasEvac and Air Maintenance. These have also been used heavily in disaster relief. eg: Chennai floods. Many would remember the roof top rescue of a pregnant woman in Chennai by a Chetak. The same task using a heavier Dhruv would have increased in complexity (maybe even impossible) given the greater downwash and greater clear area requirement. It is not as uncommon as one thinks and similar scenes are repeated multiple times across India in different locations. It is not always Chetak/ Cheetah but quite often they are the best for the job.

This entire fleet with all these Services is bordering obsolescence. Keeping those helicopters fly worthy is increasingly challenging. Serviceability is an issue.

A brief perspective - 2008, was when the first 197 helicopter deal was cancelled. It is 2016.

If I may make estimates: LUH, certification (FOC) will need at least 03 years from first flight if all goes well. I've been told production will need 36 months to start from the date of order (provided the manufacturing standards are ready). It is 2016, LUH is yet to make its first flight. Earliest date of induction based on my estimates above is 2022.

HAL's effort to build LUH is commendable and must be supported by all. However, the replacements were needed in 2008. HAL started late. It is 2016, the IA needs these machines as soon as possible.

Trust me when I say, at least on the Glacier we cannot wait much longer. Either we find ways to extend the Cheetahs life without increase in unfortunate events or get a replacement. Vacating the posts on Glacier because we could not maintain them is an eventuality we should not let happen.

Those who are arguing against the purchase of light helicopters today are either deliberately closing their eyes to reality or are in no way bothered as to what happens to the last mile folks in the Services or the people they cater to. I refuse to believe that pages after pages of arguments are being made without understanding what a helicopter is, what role it plays across India and how many we need.

Namibian Air Force buys Chetaks / Cheetahs because it is our IAF instructors who train them on that machine. We literally decided that they should operate those machines. Folks may not know but at least one instructor pilot, a co-pilot and a set of ground crew along with one helicopter are stationed in Namibia permanently since quite sometime. Requirements of flying hours, the roles expected out of their helicopters, usage and conditions under which they fly are very different. If IAF/ IA / IN / ICG are given the luxuries of taking on only those missions which Namibian Air Force will undertake, I say, sure let us not buy Ka 225s. Infact, I would say we do not need more than 100-125 helicopters for the entire country of all types. Forget Chetaks, Cheetahs, KA 225s, Dhruvs, Mi 17s, Mi 35s, Apaches, Sea Kings, Ka 28s etc, etc. Just one type would be enough.

[Viv S]

Seriously folks, IA is not a fool to insist on something smaller and lighter (lesser weight carrying craft) if something heavier could do it. Specially since they already have something heavier.

Plus, there is a definite need for "light" class and it is urgent. Our Cheetahs and Chetaks are barely pulling along now. More than IAF, it is the IA Aviation Corps which is in need of the light helicopter. The need of light helicopters is in large numbers and not a small batch of helicopters.

The requirement for a lighter aircraft is driven primarily by the related cost of acquisition and the cost of operation. The Dhruv will cost more than the Ka-226. A fact I think everyone accepts.

Thing is, given the larger goal of indigenization (which only the IN appears truly dedicated to) that's a short-term price that ought to be worth paying. To tide us over until the LUH goes into production.

And if a light helicopter is still necessary for Siachen ops, we can still opt for one or two squadrons of Fennecs (holds the record for altitude in its class). For plains and other lower altitude areas, there are relatively few things that a Ka-226 can do that a Dhruv can't.

[Cybaru]

This entire fleet with all these Services is bordering obsolescence. Keeping those helicopters fly worthy is increasingly challenging. Serviceability is an issue.

Trust me when I say, at least on the Glacier we cannot wait much longer. Either we find ways to extend the Cheetahs life without increase in unfortunate events or get a replacement. Vacating the posts on Glacier because we could not maintain them is an eventuality we should not let happen.

Those who are arguing against the purchase of light helicopters today are either deliberately closing their eyes to reality or are in no way bothered as to what happens to the last mile folks in the Services or the people they cater to. I refuse to believe that pages after pages of arguments are being made without understanding what a helicopter is, what role it plays across India and how many we need.

well thats your viewpoint and your are totally welcome to it. I think IA/IAF use emotions to push through purchase in a hurry partly because things have dragged on for too long, but also because they refuse to understand that it is how things move in India and they need to factor it in. Its not a new phenomenon that it takes a decade to get orders through in our system. Order what can be at home and ensure safety and meet operational needs. That is IA/IAFs primary responsibility.

From the BR analysis page, which granted could be off, Ka-226T does not *seem* to be able to carry significant payload to Siachen. It seemed like a quid pro quo oder, rather the one based on long tendering and announcing the winner based on merit. Even if we purchase it, it may not fit our bill. What will we do if it does not? Cry wolf and say how HAL is the reason folks are dying on the ground because LUH is not ready yet? Blame everyone else other than take responsibility to ensure that folks on the ground don't suffer by having alternatives in place? A possible uneducated thought for alternative in my mind would have been extra dhruv + Cheetahs to tide over any needs.

It may take more maintenance/service to keep these birds flying, but as long as the manufacturing line is open, we should be able to support our birds. If safety is an issue with older birds, put in new orders to keep everyone safe. If we are still manufacturing and selling Cheetah to others, we will need to keep the spare part line humming for a long while after the last order is produced. That is the responsibility you assume as a manufacturer. So this bird will be supported for a while.

Namibian Air Force buys Chetaks / Cheetahs because it is our IAF instructors who train them on that machine. We literally decided that they should operate those machines. Folks may not know but at least one instructor pilot, a co-pilot and a set of ground crew along with one helicopter are stationed in Namibia permanently since quite sometime. Requirements of flying hours, the roles expected out of their helicopters, usage and conditions under which they fly are very different. If IAF/ IA / IN / ICG are given the luxuries of taking on only those missions which Namibian Air Force will undertake, I say, sure let us not buy Ka 225s. Infact, I would say we do not need more than 100-125 helicopters for the entire country of all types. Forget Chetaks, Cheetahs, KA 225s, Dhruvs, Mi 17s, Mi 35s, Apaches, Sea Kings, Ka 28s etc, etc. Just one type would be enough.

The Namibia reference was to point out that the manufacturing line is still humming. If this bird holds the record for glacier ops, perhaps we could order a dozen or so to these kind of special ops and not make another purchase. Any other interpretation and conclusion you draw with respect to Namibia is yours alone. You are welcome to conclude whatever you wish.

Anyways this started off as an observation, that there is a strategic hole in our stable, which is medium category. If we had to make a joint venture, I wished it was in this space as it would allow a far better allocation of resources and allow forces to meet their requirements better than wait for the dog and pony show of tendering and purchasing from outside (mi-17s/NH/AW101 etc). That would complete the Light/Medium/Heavy category all in-house and the forces won't have to wait for ever to make purchases and fill whatever deficiencies and needs at home rather than waiting for ever. I think I said all I cared for. No more from me.

[shiv]

Anyways this started off as an observation, that there is a strategic hole in our stable, which is medium category. .

The fancy screens part of what you said was insightful in a way that I did not realise

Just because it has no fancy screen does not make it obsolete.

I think that there is a strategic hole exposed by the denial of an urgent need for small helicopters - and it could be because people get their information from fancy screens rather than from any real appreciation of what the Army (forget Air Force) needs.

That apart the "fancy screen" rhetoric is an interesting one because it can be used in so many ways and is worth remembering. Weather warning radars, collision avoidance systems, all sorts of systems come in fancy screens and Dakotas are still flying - so there is some deep meaning there, to be uncovered as time goes by

[rohitvats]

The level of ignorance and obstinacy is quite astounding!

This when enough data available on BRF to understand the problem.

For starters, HAL CANNOT manufacture more Cheetah because OEM which manufactured the main rotor blades has shut shop and own effort to replicate them has not been successful. This is especially with respect to Cheetah for high altitude operations.

Second, Cheetah and Chetak fulfil a specific role in IA - it's called Reconnaissance & Observation (R&O). And these R&O assets would be 3-4 times ALH holding at present. This entire fleet needs replacement as of yesterday.

And NO, using ALH for these roles makes no sense. Especially, when there are not enough ALH to do their primary role. That is, Utility Helicopter role. IA needs large amount of ALH and diverting them for such roles makes no sense.

BTW Cybaru - deejay is an ex-IAF helicopter pilot. I would take his words very seriously.

[shiv]

deejay is an ex-IAF helicopter pilot. I would take his words very seriously.

Rohit. Control yourself. What would an IAF helo pilot know about helicopters that I can't get from a fancy screen on my lap?

[Cybaru]

BTW Cybaru - deejay is an ex-IAF helicopter pilot. I would take his words very seriously.

I know.

The order information, I got from HAL website. Its possible its oudated. But it says recently.

"Till date, HAL has produced and sold more than 275 of these versatile Helicopters which are in service both in India and abroad. Recently, HAL has received orders for Cheetah helicopters from MoD Namibia."

http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Detail ... y=&CKey=25

[shiv]

A possible uneducated thought for alternative in my mind would have been extra dhruv + Cheetahs to tide over any needs.

Here is an uneducated thought from me:

The Air Force and army have already done exactly that - i.e used Dhruvs and Cheetahs and even Cheetals with fancy screens and extended this desperate situation to the limit and that fact has shown up on fancy screens time and again for years. They are getting way past that old hat stage. Now what? Read BRF for suggestions and buy medium helicopters from Kamov?

[Cybaru]

In previous tenders,

It was fennec followed by Bell that won the first and second place. 226T didn't make the cut.
In subsequent trials, it was fennec followed by Kamov as Bell didn't participate due to offset issues.

It lost the race twice.

Does 226T really meet the cut for siachen?

[shiv]

Does 226T really meet the cut for siachen?

It is up to each of us to decide whether we want to believe what we see on fancy screens or something else. I trust that the Air Force has tested the Ka 226 and finds it suitable, but I am unable to find that info on my fancy screen. But you did say that not having one is no disadvantage and I trust you to be right on that count.

You have your freedom of choice, freedom of expression and freedom of information to go by.

[shiv]

Obtained from index finger movements and fancy screens
https://defencyclopedia.com/2015/05/22/ ... -in-india/

The Cheetah can lift a max external sling load of 1 ton and the Ka-226T can lift 1.5 tons. There’s not a huge margin of difference over here at first glance, but there’s a massive difference which isn’t visible in photos. The Cheetah can just barely lift the 1 ton external load which in turn makes the helicopter sluggish and puts maximum strain on the airframe. It usually never lifts such loads and regular payloads don’t cross 300-400 kg. But the Ka-226T’s co-axial rotors provide excellent power and when external loads need to be slung around, the rear cabin is detached which turns the helo into a mini sky-crane. It can lift 1.5 ton loads with ease and it will still handle smoothly and retain its max service ceiling. This is invaluable in India’s mountain regions where supplies have to be airlifted to troops and in regions like the Siachen glacier and other areas where helicopters hardly have space to land. The Ka-226T triples the current capability which will allow the Indian Army to lift more supplies in one sortie to higher altitudes.

[Cybaru]

And from BR Helicopter analysis thread.

"The Kamov model has visibly different performance owing to its different design concept. A combination of high empty mass, contra-rotating rotors and higher available power means that the tail-off in performance for this design is different from the Bell and Eurocopter models. The performance of the Kamov design generally tails-off faster than its competitors at higher altitudes. There is a substantial difference in hover performance between the Kamov design and others beyond 15,000 ft altitude and this difference only increases as altitude increases. When similar pilot, fuel and rate-of-climb effects are added, the Kamov design’s payload capacity is negligible beyond ~16,000 ft altitude."

Anyways enjoy, I had promised no more posts, about 10 posts earlier. I should stick to that.

[shiv]

And from BR Helicopter analysis thread.

"The Kamov model has visibly different performance owing to its different design concept. A combination of high empty mass, contra-rotating rotors and higher available power means that the tail-off in performance for this design is different from the Bell and Eurocopter models. The performance of the Kamov design generally tails-off faster than its competitors at higher altitudes. There is a substantial difference in hover performance between the Kamov design and others beyond 15,000 ft altitude and this difference only increases as altitude increases. When similar pilot, fuel and rate-of-climb effects are added, the Kamov design’s payload capacity is negligible beyond ~16,000 ft altitude."

Anyways enjoy, I had promised no more posts, about 10 posts earlier. I should stick to that.

Go ahead. I will keep making posts though.

The Kamov has a removable cabin and does not have to carry that deadweight every time. Hover performance is not all that counts and there is a huge difference between hovering "in ground effect" like a hovercraft and hovering in mid air. Which one does the analysis talk about. Could you consult your fancy screen and post?

[Cybaru]

If it is so superior why did it lose the Indian Army conducted trials twice? Okay that really is the last one!

[shiv]

If it is so superior why did it lose the Indian Army conducted trials twice? Okay that really is the last one!

I am sure you can consult your fancy screen on that one. Beyond a point I can see that only rhetoric and the need to have the last word becomes important - so much for believing that BRF is ahead of curve.

On the LCA front the traitor Air Force is being forced to use the retarded LCA instead of the fancy Rafale. Why not a loser Ka 226? This is the kind of gyan that we get on BRF - showing how far ahead we are. What I love about rhetoric is that there is no end and no need for anything other than the need to keep arguing and posting counter points. We can now continue to spam this thread for a few more pages. Why? because you think India has a strategic hole in medium lift helicopters and think that India should sacrifice an urgent need for light helos and fill the strategic hole of your fancy. And I betcha you have this info from the fancy screen that you use but which is unnecessary for the emotion filled air force.

[Viv S]

And NO, using ALH for these roles makes no sense. Especially, when there are not enough ALH to do their primary role. That is, Utility Helicopter role. IA needs large amount of ALH and diverting them for such roles makes no sense.

The Dhruv is already in-production and moderately scaling up its orders to serve as a stop-gap to the LUH hardly counts as a 'diversion'.

The Dhruv's operational role is no different, payload aside (it can very much be used for recce missions). Which is also one of the reasons why the HAL program for the Cheetah/Chetak replacement is named Light Utility Helicopter.

[Cybaru]

If it is so superior why did it lose the Indian Army conducted trials twice? Okay that really is the last one!

I am sure you can consult your fancy screen on that one. Beyond a point I can see that only rhetoric and the need to have the last word becomes important - so much for believing that BRF is ahead of curve.

On the LCA front the traitor Air Force is being forced to use the retarded LCA instead of the fancy Rafale. Why not a loser Ka 226? This is the kind of gyan that we get on BRF - showing how far ahead we are. What I love about rhetoric is that there is no end and no need for anything other than the need to keep arguing and posting counter points. We can now continue to spam this thread for a few more pages. Why? because you think India has a strategic hole in medium lift helicopters and think that India should sacrifice an urgent need for light helos and fill the strategic hole of your fancy. And I betcha you have this info from the fancy screen that you use but which is unnecessary for the emotion filled air force.

I already qualified myself as a non expert and shared it with a disclaimer of FWIW as my opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else.
"

uneducated thought for alternative in my mind

You can disagree and move on man, but you seem to be getting a little personal and condescending.
Anyways moving on for good..

[ShauryaT]

And NO, using ALH for these roles makes no sense. Especially, when there are not enough ALH to do their primary role. That is, Utility Helicopter role. IA needs large amount of ALH and diverting them for such roles makes no sense.

The Dhruv is already in-production and moderately scaling up its orders to serve as a stop-gap to the LUH hardly counts as a 'diversion'.

The Dhruv's operational role is no different, payload aside (it can very much be used for recce missions). Which is also one of the reasons why the HAL program for the Cheetah/Chetak replacement is named Light Utility Helicopter.

Lookup the operations cost for Dhruv and KA-226 in an R&O role. Also compare the acquisition cost. Then compare the obsolescence of the existing fleet. Lack of readiness for indigenous fleet. Numbers needed for these types across the services and the choice of the Kamov becomes clear. All this explained by Rohit to me just a few pages back. No wonder people get riled if nincompoops like myself ask these questions again and again and on top of it when provided an answer argue incessantly without looking at the underlying data in totality.

[deejay]

...

The requirement for a lighter aircraft is driven primarily by the related cost of acquisition and the cost of operation. The Dhruv will cost more than the Ka-226. A fact I think everyone accepts.

Agreed, though operationally there are other factors for which I do not have data to support without which it will be quite a fruitless discussion.

Thing is, given the larger goal of indigenization (which only the IN appears truly dedicated to) that's a short-term price that ought to be worth paying. To tide us over until the LUH goes into production.

I agree that IN is most committed to indigenisation efforts but in this case LUH was not in contention right from the beginning of the deal. IA had stated its requirement, commenced its procurement plans for light helciopters long before HAL started out. I remember Ecureuil (Civilian version of Fennec) undergoing trials at Glacier in 2002. HAL started its development late. I do not have dates but someone could help me here. Wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Light ... Helicopter

The HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and its derivative HAL Light Observation Helicopter (LOH) is a single-engine light helicopter under development by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited of India. The 3-tonne helicopter for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. The project is in preliminary stages.[1] The Indian military have a requirement for 384 helicopters of which 187 helicopters will be built by HAL. The first flight was expected in 2015. Production is planned to begin in 2018 at 10 per year, later on going up to 36 per year and delivery of 187 HAL’s LUHs is to be completed by 2022.[2]
As of 3 November 2012, the bottom structure assembly of the LUH ground test vehicle is complete and has been taken down from the jig last month. According to HAL, "LUH assembly jigs are modular and gaugeless jigs, concurrently designed along with structure design using 3D CAD. There are five assembly jigs and a coupling jig enabling modular and concurrent build- up of the structure. The jigs are built and validated using state-of-the-art CAMS-Computer Aided Measurement System (laser tracker) to establish high accuracy and stability.[3]

The IA had worked well in advance and it was in Jun 2007 that the Eurocopter deal was suspended. IA had indeed worked well within timelines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_Fennec

In February 2007, India selected the AS550 C3 Fennec over the Bell 407 helicopter in a deal for 197 helicopters worth 500 million USD.[2] This deal was suspended in June 2007 because of concerns of alleged corruption in the bidding process, and cancelled outright on 6 December 2007.[3]

Can you help me here Viv- What price is good enough over the Short Term. Some ideas on what this will be and how it will be agreeable to all.

Secondly, LUH is underdevelopment. Based on the wiki article, I can say from 2010 at least. It is yet to fly. How many more years will it take? Can we give an assured date for production run to start?

And if a light helicopter is still necessary for Siachen ops, we can still opt for one or two squadrons of Fennecs (holds the record for altitude in its class). For plains and other lower altitude areas, there are relatively few things that a Ka-226 can do that a Dhruv can't.

Firstly:
Still Necessary? How does one explain the necessity to people who will not accept multiple years of IA justification, explanations to MOD babus a thousand times, life saving, life altering experiences using light helicopters like Cheetah even when the Dhruv was available.

Secondly:
Why only Siachen ops? The entire fleet needs to be replaced. IA unlike IAF and IN is actively deployed in Operational Areas. Do people get the significance of this? IA is not waiting for a situation where these assets will be useful. They are needed now on a daily basis.

May be the wives have an answer. This is the only article which had some stats
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chee ... 03414.html

...
According to the Indian Army Wives' Agitation Group, the 191 crashes have claimed 294 lives. On an average, there are three to four Army Aviation accidents every year.
...
The last crash happened on October 1 when a Cheetah belonging to the Army Aviation crashed in Uttar Pradesh's Bareilly district, leading to the death of two pilots and an engineer.

The Army still has 120 of these machines. Some of these copters, that crashed in the high altitudes of Jammu and Kashmir's Siachen, have been untraceable along with the officers on board.
...

In the forces, since the '60s, the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited built the Cheetah (original model SA 315B Lama) and Chetak (original model Alouette III) under licence from French state-owned firm Aerospatiale.

Their production was stopped in 1990 and several countries like Argentina, Denmark and Ireland replaced the Alouette III long ago.
Both Cheetah and Chetak have single engines unlike two in the modern models that make the latter more reliable in emergencies.

Bhosale said, "Cheetah and Chetak are the rudimentary machines lacking autopilot, weather radar, duplicity of systems and on-board computer for engine control."

These helicopters are a lifeline at many places not just for the soldiers but civilans too under certain situation. Their age and the problems of supporting them through obsolescence have made it urgent to replace them. The Indian replacement is under works but one is not sure how long this will take.

IA and IAF use helicopters a lot for Operational requirements. Cutting down on flying is not an option because of the work they undertake. Unlike fighters or missiles, which may be needed, helicopters like Cheetah and its replacement are needed for Operational Duties on a daily basis. I cannot say the same thing for all flying of Mi 26 or its replacements.

[Singha]

even at the best of time, the Chetak and esp Cheetah fragile looking builds and external engine did not inspire a great 'faith' in the novice, but they have proved to be reliable workhorses albeit fading out now.

the KA226 and LUH look much more solid and 'faith inspiring' in comparison

[Viv S]

Lookup the operations cost for Dhruv and KA-226 in an R&O role. Also compare the acquisition cost. Then compare the obsolescence of the existing fleet. Lack of readiness for indigenous fleet. Numbers needed for these types across the services and the choice of the Kamov becomes clear. All this explained by Rohit to me just a few pages back. No wonder people get riled if nincompoops like myself ask these questions again and again and on top of it when provided an answer argue incessantly without looking at the underlying data in totality.

I take it you didn't read my previous post on the matter (quoted in Deejay's post).

The real question is, what is the opportunity cost of the Ka-226? How much of an impact will it have on long-term indigenization program? How much would the unit cost of the LUH (and ALH) rise, by virtue of smaller scales of production, with a foreign OEM gaining the balance?

Does the LUH have any hope in the export market after having to 'compete' with the Ka-226 in the domestic market? Or are we satisfied running it like a Khadi Gram Udyog project (i.e. global competitiveness not a factor - expected and willing to exist on the govt dole)?

[ShauryaT]

The real question is, what is the opportunity cost of the Ka-226? How much of an impact will it have on long-term indigenization program? How much would the unit cost of the LUH (and ALH) rise, by virtue of smaller scales of production, with a foreign OEM gaining the balance?

Does the LUH have any hope in the export market after having to 'compete' with the Ka-226 in the domestic market? Or are we satisfied running it like a Khadi Gram Udyog project (i.e. global competitiveness not a factor - expected and willing to exist on the govt dole)?

Look at the numbers we need mate. If and when, the LUH matures and if the nincompoops babus have any wits in them, they will figure a way out de-prioritize the Kamov for the local version. Tell then, you need to quit this topic in all honesty. Our fleet needs replacements NOW and in numbers.