ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Jan 2014 13:29

disha wrote:...
So all in all - one does not have to do an ASAT test to demonstrate "capability", but at the same time have all the "dhoti-shivering" continue to do a good cop/bad cop routine.

Its not about "demonstrating capability", its about adding such weapons in one's arsenal. When China (US and Russia before) conducts Anti-Satellite test, they are not conducting an experiment or a P-o-C, they are testing a weapon which they plan to induct.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Jan 2014 15:57

disha wrote:SagarG, demonstrate to whom? Given that BRF as a whole is uber-elite in knowledge compared to aam-admi, the aam-admi will not comprehend the nitty-gritties and will put his faith in likes of APJ kalam or V. Saraswat.

So the test is only for "doubting Thomas'es" who will still "doubt" never satisfied. For the patriotic indics within that same subset, an ASAT demo is more a psycho exercise to address their complexes.

Demonstrate to our enemies who else. I remember very well that you have been posting against India conducting ASAT test for long but the recent Arrow-3 test got me up and look around to see that other countries aren't stopping so why shall we. If you think that conducting an out and out ASAT test is lame then do it how US did when they shot down their own satellite giving some lameass excuse of "toxic fuel harming lives". Yeah US values life

abhik wrote:
disha wrote:...
So all in all - one does not have to do an ASAT test to demonstrate "capability", but at the same time have all the "dhoti-shivering" continue to do a good cop/bad cop routine.
Its not about "demonstrating capability", its about adding such weapons in one's arsenal. When China (US and Russia before) conducts Anti-Satellite test, they are not conducting an experiment or a P-o-C, they are testing a weapon which they plan to induct.

Very good point abhik.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jan 2014 09:58

And the yanks made a movie about Sandra Bullock stranded in space due to space debris, and the debris was blamed on Russians with the chinese saving Bullock. And they earned millions on that fake of a movie (I was wondering if now an Indian Gharial will come and grab Sandra's derriere when she lands in chinese waters).

And the Chinese have not demonstrated a real AAD/PAD level ABM capability.

An effective demonstration will be when MoM enters orbit around Mars. The trajectory calculations in that are far more complex than intersecting LEOs. Plus, ability to restart engines after a year of space dormancy.

Have you heard of space mines?

And regarding demo of ASAT by India to its enemies., it is akin to reading Bhagvaad Gita to an ass in the hope that the ass will attain nirvana.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 08:53

India, Israel to Build Anti-Missile System

NEW DELHI — India and Israel will jointly build an integrated anti-missile system to be deployed against Chinese nuclear and conventional missiles.

The new program, which does not yet have a name, has been approved by the Indian Defence Ministry, with a contract expected to be signed in the next six months, according to a scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) at Defexpo.

The proposed missile defense program will see participation by Rafael and Israel Aircraft Industries in partnership with DRDO and state-owned Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).

The system will integrate the homegrown Prithvi air defense system, which is ready for induction next year, with the mobile detection radar being built by BEL in partnership with IAI. In addition, DRDO and BEL will work with IAI and Rafael for this program.

“The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel,” a Rafael executive said at Defexpo, which runs from Thursday to Sunday.

The executive added that additional missile systems, both short range and medium range, will be tailor-made for use by India.

Indian MoD sources said talks have been underway on the integrated missile defense program for over six months, but gave no details on the program’s fate.

The Rafael executive said his company has offered to build a dedicated C4I system for the program. India does not yet have a C4I system for missile defense threats, the executive added. ■

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Feb 2014 16:42

austin beat me to it.. but what gives .. whats happening here after AAD/PAD etc .. DRDO going for israeli tech ? ..no doubt india has no equivalent for the iron dome but ?

btw IAI seems off the hook !

seems like more of system integration and software as applied to the super pine ! maybe some seeker tech is involved but it could run into obstacles ( think who !)

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Feb 2014 17:39

Any news on the planned test of the phase 2 ABM missile? It was planned for December end but no news as of yet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Feb 2014 19:18

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140206 ... ystem.html

Russia to Arm Warships with New Air Defense System RIA Novosti. Vitaliy Ankov
06/02/2014

NEW DELHI, February 6 (RIA Novosti) – A naval version of the Tor short-range air defense system will be installed on all Russian warships, the manufacturer, Almaz-Antey Concern, said Thursday.

The new system, dubbed M-Tor, is a variant of the modernized Tor-M2KM system featuring modular assembly, high reliability and improved precision, according to Yuri Baykov, spokesman for Almaz-Antey.

M-Tor will gradually replace the outdated Kinzhal (SA-N-Gauntlet) systems, which have been in service since 1989, Baykov said at the DEFEXPO INDIA-2014 exhibition in New Delhi.

He also said Russia will offer Tor-M2KMs to India as part of the recently announced tender for 52 short-range air defense systems to form two missile regiments in the Indian army.

Almaz-Antey will test a modified version of the Tor-M2KM in the spring, mounted on a wheeled chassis manufactured by India’s Tata Motors, the official said.

According to the company, Tor-M2KM is a highly versatile air defense system that can be mounted on a wide variety of platforms, including railway cars, rooftops and ships.

“This expands significantly the scope of its operational deployment, as the system could be used to protect stadiums from airborne attacks during large international sports events,” Baykov said.

The system can simultaneously detect 48 targets, track up to ten targets and engage four of them at the same time.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Feb 2014 07:20

One Mango man doubt gurus - Prudhivi is a liquid fuel one as for as my knowledge goes. They have to be fuled just before use. Is the ABMs are also liquid ones??? If Yes how can they be used in case of urgency where every nano second may count. We will not get any advance warning of a Paki attack which most likely will be a terror type attack with no formal declaration of war etc.

Have we developed any tech by which we can store liquid fuled missiles for longer duriation like in canisters?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Feb 2014 09:12

Narayana Rao, I think as we learned more, we have learned about the use of storable non corrosive liquid fuesl which can be replaced in months need not be fueled just before launch.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Feb 2014 10:00

Austin wrote:India, Israel to Build Anti-Missile System

The system will integrate the homegrown Prithvi air defense system, which is ready for induction next year, with the mobile detection radar being built by BEL in partnership with IAI. In addition, DRDO and BEL will work with IAI and Rafael for this program.

“The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel,” a Rafael executive said at Defexpo, which runs from Thursday to Sunday.

The executive added that additional missile systems, both short range and medium range, will be tailor-made for use by India.

kit wrote:austin beat me to it.. but what gives .. whats happening here after AAD/PAD etc .. DRDO going for israeli tech ? ..no doubt india has no equivalent for the iron dome but ?

btw IAI seems off the hook !

seems like more of system integration and software as applied to the super pine ! maybe some seeker tech is involved but it could run into obstacles ( think who !)

We're looking for radars and additional missile systems from Israel. PAD/AAD work will be integrated into one program. This could be primarily about radars and seekers.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Feb 2014 11:54

Narayana Rao wrote:One Mango man doubt gurus - Prudhivi is a liquid fuel one as for as my knowledge goes. They have to be fuled just before use. Is the ABMs are also liquid ones??? If Yes how can they be used in case of urgency where every nano second may count. We will not get any advance warning of a Paki attack which most likely will be a terror type attack with no formal declaration of war etc.

Have we developed any tech by which we can store liquid fuled missiles for longer duriation like in canisters?

I don't think that the Prithivi based ABM will ever be deployed, I think it was more of a technology demonstrator from the start.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Feb 2014 06:19

Our BDM was never based on the prithivi, all our intercepters were based on solid fuels... We used aprithvi missiles to mimic the hostile. Missile which was targeted and destroyed.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 13 Feb 2014 11:24

Philip wrote:http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140206 ... ystem.html
He also said Russia will offer Tor-M2KMs to India as part of the recently announced tender for 52 short-range air defense systems to form two missile regiments in the Indian army.

We already have Tunguska to take of this requirement,Why buy again?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2014 17:48

Good Read on US GMD Program ....

MDA Budget Request To Boost GMD, Add Radar

On the heels of last year’s humiliating third failure of the premier U.S. missile defense system during what was billed as a fairly simple flight trial, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel is doubling down on the Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD) program by adding more than $4.5 billion to the Missile Defense Agency’s coffers from fiscal 2015-2019, according to Riki Ellison, chairman of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance.

Thus far, the Pentagon has spent more than $157 billion developing various missile defenses, a portion of it on GMD technologies.

In the Pentagon’s forthcoming budget request, which is slated for delivery next month to Congress, Hagel is planning to specifically request higher funding for GMD, according to defense sources. The goal is to turn the tide in what some say has become an atrophied focus on testing and evolving technology for the program, and hopefully score an intercept this spring.

Additionally, he will propose at least $1.5 billion across the plan to develop a new radar to spot missiles from North Korea, while potentially shifting the massive, floating Space-Based X-Band system to the East Coast to monitor for attacks from an increasingly bellicose Iran.

Missile Defense Agency (MDA) spokesman Rick Lehner declined to discuss fiscal 2015 budget specifics until delivered to Congress. But sources speaking on background due to the sensitivity of the subject are painting a picture of what is ahead for the agency.

MDA’s budget was expected to dip as low as about $7 billion or less, down from a steady $9 billion years before. But much of that is slated to be restored, thanks in part to concern from Hagel that GMD was being shortchanged.

As the only measure of defending the homeland against a North Korean or Iranian ICBM attack, any failure of the GMD system, managed by Boeing, is a national embarrassment. The system’s inability on July 5, 2013, to repeat a relatively simple test that it had already successfully conducted five years earlier, however, was a genuine shame. Hagel had hastily ordered the test last March in response to saber rattling from Pyongyang, and it was intended to showcase the Pentagon’s unique ability to shield U.S. territory.

Instead, it raised questions about the effectiveness of a small fleet of GMD interceptors on alert at Fort Greely, Alaska, and Vandenberg AFB, Calif. Thirty have been emplaced, including four in California.

This test was akin to the “glory missions” of the U.S. Minuteman III ICBM, where officials take an active missile on alert and put it through its paces to validate effectiveness; a secondary effect is a worldwide reminder of its capabilities. In this case for GMD, however, the Raytheon Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle (EKV) failed even to separate from the Orbital Sciences Booster. “We were doing this in the ‘60s,” said one industry source, noting vehicle separation is hardly the hardest part of an intercept attempt. Some hypothesize that a clamp, or other relatively unsophisticated hardware, was to blame for the failure of the $200 million test. An investigation into the mishap still has not concluded.

As a result, Hagel is adding more funding to GMD to shore up monitoring and modernization activities as well as evolve the system’s capability, defense sources say. It is no longer acceptable to the Pentagon’s leadership to take risk in the program. “What failed … was the culmination of a five-year process failure — a huge process failure between the Defense Department and the [Capitol Hill] — that has led to the suspension of the normal redesign and reengineering activities on GMD,” one official said after last year’s test failure.

The Pentagon will effectively be stuck with today’s configuration — including a prickly EKV Capability Enhancement (CE) I baseline version — for years; it achieved eight of 14 intercept attempts. And two of the three GMD failures since 2008 have been with the CE-II — an upgrade shrouded in secrecy that is thought to have added capability — possibly improved maneuverability — to defeat countermeasures. The Pentagon’s chief tester, Michael Gilmore, goes so far as to recommend a redesign of EKV in his fiscal 2013 report to Congress.

But it seems senior defense officials see their only way out of the conundrum as embarking on a path beyond EKV, a so-called Common Kill Vehicle (CKV). Though the fiscal 2014 budget included funding to embark on such a program — dubbed common as the equipment might be shared between the GMD and SM-3 Aegis interceptors — the program’s fate was not certain. Now, however, Hagel’s guidance is to move forward with an EKV replacement, the defense source says. “We need a comprehensive kill vehicle strategy.”

A question that remains to be answered is whether this kill vehicle will be unitary — like EKV, designed to counter a single warhead — or capable of deploying multiple baby kill vehicles, allowing each interceptor to attack a larger number of threats. Ideally, defense officials and lawmakers hope to deploy it around 2020, the defense official says.

Lackluster reliability by GMD is due, in part, to the system’s burgeoning status. GMD is a hybrid developmental and deployed system. A decade ago, President George W. Bush proclaimed “limited defensive operations,” a moniker unique to GMD intended to evoke a sense of operational capability. It was rushed into service to underpin a policy deterring adversaries from buying, developing or using ballistic missiles. Unlike the Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense program — which was sidelined for nearly a decade for redesigns — the White House refuses to take GMD “offline” to narrow the program’s focus.

Full backing of a CKV capability does not translate to abandoning EKV; it will likely be improved over the next decade to boost reliability.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon also is planning to propose a program to develop and deploy a new radar in the Pacific region. Dubbed the Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR), the system would most likely be place in Alaska, though a decision has yet to be made. It will be designed to differentiate between incoming warheads and countermeasures, devices designed specifically to fool radars into guiding interceptors against false targets. This system would augment the Upgraded Early Warning Radar at Beale AFB, Calif., which operates at ultra-high-frequencies, a forward-based AN/TPY-2 X-band system, the floating Sea-Based X-band (SBX) radar and the Cobra Dane L-band system. Aegis ships also patrol in the region with their SPY-1 sensors.

A program such as LRDR likely would take advantage of advances in radar developments and manufacturing to produce a highly reliable and sensitive system. Advances in transmit-and-receive modules, semiconductors and active, electronically scanned arrays have matured since SBX was crafted in the late 1990s. A main problem with SBX was spotty reliability. The system was designed to help engineers test GMD’s capabilities, not for a round-the-clock alert. As both GMD and the threat from Pyongyang matured, officials want a more stable system on alert status.

This would allow for MDA to deploy SBX to the East Coast, satisfying a concern among some lawmakers that homeland ICBM defenses against Iran are inadequate.

Meanwhile, planning continues for what MDA hopes will be the first successful GMD intercept test in more than five years. Though the test originally was planned as a repeat of the failed FTG-06 flight trail — the most complex to date — some officials are considering whether a more basic scenario is in order. “We need a success,” the defense source says.

FTG-06 pitted the new EKV CE-I in a head-on engagement against a sophisticated Lockheed Martin LV-2, which was emulating an advanced threat. The high closing velocities of a head-on engagement requires more precision and performance.

While MDA must redo that test, officials also are considering whether the agency should, once again, attempt to showcase the CE-I in a test that would present a lower risk and, possibly, restore confidence in the system.

Each GMD trial costs roughly $200 million. Agency Director Vice Adm. James Syring has said that once he gets GMD flying again, he hopes to test more regularly.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2014 17:51

Looks like even Deployed ABM system in its operational configuration are experiencing failures against relatively simple test .......was GMD rushed through deployment ?

Compare that to our test which has seen high operational success rate even during test phase ...though these are not against ICBM type threats.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Feb 2014 08:04

India has capacity to make anti-satellite weapons: DRDO chief

India has the capability to build anti-satellite weapons but has no plans for any activity that affects peaceful use of space, DRDO chief Avinash Chander said Friday.

Talking to media persons at Defexpo '14 here, Chander said anti-satellite weapon capacity includes ability to reach the target and a pinpoint hit.

"Configurations are available. We are confident we can do it," he said.

However, he said there were no plans for activity "which will affect space".

Answering another query, he said the Defence Research and Development Organisation was working on converging technologies concerning high energy systems.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Feb 2014 08:09

I think its matter of time DRDO will demonstrate an anti-Satellite program hitting a satellite in LEO .....should be a much easier task then hitting a small warhead in unpredictible trajectory

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Apr 2014 11:44

Country will test missile shield next week: DRDO

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 991171.cms

BHUBANESWAR: In a boost to the defence sector, the country is all set to test its anti-ballistic missile defence system for long range (beyond 100 km) off Odisha coast for the first time next week. This will be followed by trial of cruise missile Nirbhay (whose maiden test had failed last year) and air-to-air missile Astra next month, Avinash Chander, scientific adviser to defence minister, said here on Saturday.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Apr 2014 12:27

What is the actual status of the ABM program? When will the first system be deployed? What is the status of the 'Swordfish' radar and other systems? Initially the DRDO was giving the impression that the first system would be deployed by 2012, we have long crossed that date yet there is no news. The first test took place in Nov 2006, ie 7.5 years ago. That should mean that the program itself is well over a decade old. We needed an ABM cover since yesterday, this delay is worrying.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 20 Apr 2014 21:05

There is a new ABM , fully solid fueled to be tested so that's an improvement

the range of the system is 100 km (by article), we expected range to be atleast 150km + to protect against nuclear fallout.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2014 23:56

abhik wrote:What is the actual status of the ABM program? When will the first system be deployed? What is the status of the 'Swordfish' radar and other systems? Initially the DRDO was giving the impression that the first system would be deployed by 2012, we have long crossed that date yet there is no news. The first test took place in Nov 2006, ie 7.5 years ago. That should mean that the program itself is well over a decade old. We needed an ABM cover since yesterday, this delay is worrying.

GOI decides deployment

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Apr 2014 08:44

“After the enemy missile is fired from the warship, the imaging infrared seeker in the new interceptor missile with an attitude control mechanism would first detect the incoming missile and give command to launch the killer vehicle.

The entire process from detection to interception will be fully automated

han-poo shibberrrr!!

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Apr 2014 11:59

ALL JINGOES

Jalebis 4U

India says up .... on ABM to <who else?>

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2014 12:17

DRDO release

India tests anti-missile weapon at more than 120 km altitude

Its for a 2000 km missile.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 27 Apr 2014 12:27

Great. Congratulations to brilliant scientists, engineers and all the staff involvedNext MIRV agni

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 27 Apr 2014 12:42

chackojoseph wrote:DRDO release

India tests anti-missile weapon at more than 120 km altitude

Its for a 2000 km missile.

Thanks, chacko ji. Any idea if both stages used solid propellants?

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Apr 2014 12:43

chackojoseph wrote:DRDO release

India tests anti-missile weapon at more than 120 km altitude

Its for a 2000 km missile.

Excellent writeup ChackoJi!

And BTW, we know that baki missiles have their inner pakhanistaniyat drop off at 30km. So definitely this high up altitude test is meant for the red herrings!

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 27 Apr 2014 15:08

pics please ...a detailed video will be much better..along with K4 missile video too

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Apr 2014 15:34

From Tarmak007 FB Page
https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007

There is also a launch video

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Apr 2014 15:48

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=566602460103750

Launch video

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 27 Apr 2014 15:48

thanks for the pic..
In the first look seems very similar to Arrow 3 system in terms of the looks and overall approach .

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 27 Apr 2014 15:53

The missile looks huge, fat rather like the Prithvi missile. But from the smoke its apparent that it does not have the same (liquid fueled) engine/motor for the first stage.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Apr 2014 15:56

abhik wrote:The missile looks huge, fat rather like the Prithvi missile. But from the smoke its apparent that it does not have the same (liquid fueled) engine/motor for the first stage.

PDV is solid-fuelled, both stages.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2014 16:07

Congratulations DRDO. Thanks for the pics , PDV looks like a pure Indian Design based on Solid Fuel Prithvi , it more on stubbier side with likely fixed wing control surface on the first stage with perhaps lower control surface movable and TVC based control on the 2nd Stage.

Seems like an attempt to make PAD all solid fuel affording greater mobility and ready to fire round with high intercept altitude.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Apr 2014 16:18

How do they have a count down for an interceptor launch? One thing is we could see the angulation of the launch platform changing while the count down was occurring.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 27 Apr 2014 16:30

prasannasimha wrote:How do they have a count down for an interceptor launch? One thing is we could see the angulation of the launch platform changing while the count down was occurring.

Saar, stabilization that is seen in the initial frames is from the ship-borne target onlee. IMHO, there is a minimal interceptor count-down built-in - from acquisition to launch - for system health-checks.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 27 Apr 2014 16:37

Did anyone notice a minor oscillation of the interceptor upon launch, or is it my eyes tricking me with moving foliage in the background?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Apr 2014 17:49

prasannasimha wrote:How do they have a count down for an interceptor launch? One thing is we could see the angulation of the launch platform changing while the count down was occurring.

That was the Target missile, written TGT on the missile itself at the bottom.
As for count-down, there can be no countdown at all and the DRDO release says

“In an automated operation, a radar-based detection and tracking system detected and tracked the enemy’s ballistic missile. The computer network with the help of data received from radars predicted the trajectory of the incoming ballistic missile,”

A PDV that was kept fully ready, took off from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island, about 100 km from here, once the computer system gave the necessary command for lift-off

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 27 Apr 2014 17:55

Nalla Baalu wrote:Did anyone notice a minor oscillation of the interceptor upon launch, or is it my eyes tricking me with moving foliage in the background?

I believe the first vid is of the target possibly being launched off the sea off the sukanya class hence the oscillation i am guessing they launch prithvis as targets and manipulate the altitude so as to mimick the kind of missile being intercepted. Imho ofcourse.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 27 Apr 2014 17:56

prasannasimha wrote:How do they have a count down for an interceptor launch? One thing is we could see the angulation of the launch platform changing while the count down was occurring.

Saar please.. The count down and the "angulation" is for the target missile.