Military Flight Safety

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 07 Aug 2011 23:18

Sanjeev, it's too premature to jump to conclusions. It may not be pilot error. There could have been a tech failure because eyewitness accounts say the jet "suddenly fell out of the sky" and was "plumetting towards a residential neighbourhood". The pilot somehow steered it away towards a field but lost too much alt and hit a power line and a pipal tree before crashing. They found his body still strapped to the seat. I'd say this young man is a hero

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Aug 2011 00:02

Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Aug 2011 00:10

I am in Gorakhpur...and in recent times I could hear very frequent flying routines, even in Middle of night...Now its all silenced for a while...Gorakhpur airbase mostly consists Jaguar as mig 23 retired...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 08 Aug 2011 02:33

^^
no need to advertise the flying routines of IAF, recommend you to delete the above post.

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Aug 2011 03:41

Please report my post...If moderators feel there is anything sensitive...
I don't think I shared anything which is not in public domain as of now...and if its a airbase...they are suppose to train....don't they...till the crash...

Anyways feel free to report it than dropping it on my conscience...

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 08 Aug 2011 10:01

sanjeevpunj wrote:^^^More indication towards pilot error.

I was speaking to a serving IAF personnel on Sunday on such very incidents and I was amazed to hear what he had to say. he said that if there is a crash and the pilot survives, they try to save the pilot's career. on the other hand in such instances (where the pilot has lost his life), he tends to get the blame.
Whats more, when the pilot's family is given the monetary compensation for their loss, Re. 1 is deducted from it as reprimand for having destroyed an a/c.
So please hold-on to the finger pointing and spare a thought for the aggrieved.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Aug 2011 15:00

rohitvats wrote:Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.

residual powered is not the word.

Jaguars suffer from a lot of bird hits, on the trailing edge!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Aug 2011 23:41

chetak wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.

residual powered is not the word.

Jaguars suffer from a lot of bird hits, on the trailing edge!!

What rohitvats said about lack of reserve power in the Jaguar is also true though. Its no secret that the aircraft is underpowered, which is why the IAF was looking to reengine it till RR's withdrawal from the tender froze that.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 10 Aug 2011 19:52

for all weather flying especially in the North East, will pilots equipped with SAR pods and the feed integrated into their helmets help? for fixed wing transport aircraft can they use retiring fighter
plane radars for SAR purposes? With ISRO getting ready for RISAT launch, I believe we do have the tech for SAR based navigation to happen

for rotary wing, continuing on the dicussion from the Kaveri thread, if they have Shakti engines drive a electric motor which then becomes the prime mover for the main rotor, does it help in reducing the vibration? so that a radar can be mounted above the main rotor?

Added Later: for SAR based navigation
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/b1radar/

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 11 Aug 2011 01:45

Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970

It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Aug 2011 06:57

Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970

Interesting statistic. Assuming it is accurate - it translates to 24 crashes a year or two a month. "Two a month is routinel" was the statement made to Nitin and me by a now very senior IAF officer about 10 years ago.

If I tell you that Indians marry their cousins and that this is odd the statement has little meaning unless I can also show that others do not marry cousins. If others are doing that a lot more - then my statement is misleading.

Unless someone can create a table of statistics for number of hours flown by the major air forces of the world including USA, Britain, Taiwan, PLAAF, Russia and Pakhanastan and say iof the IAF rate is higher or lower - we will never know what is "routine" or "not routine"

I am not trying to condone or dismiss accidents but we have zero figures from China or Pakhanastan. Or even Russia.

We do have figures from the US and this very therad may have a 2 year old discussion. Until about 5-6 years ago the Indian crash figures were much higher (per 100,000 flying hours) than the USAF. I had heard one explanation for this from my late cousin Suresh.

In the USA a fighter plane taking off or landing during an exercise often needs to maintain a strict queue system because of congested US airspace and may even be refuelled. So a "sortie" in US terms could be several hours. Many of these hours are spent in holding a landing pattern and non risky flying. In India a sortie for a MiG 21 may be just 45 minutes. So the US aircraft notch up far more hours of non risky flying per sortie while the IAF's Mig with their short legs notch up fwere flying hours for the same amount of risky maneuvering night/bad weather/low level operational flying.

I am not trying to condone or excuse manufacturing or maintenance defects.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 11 Aug 2011 08:20

Interesting post, Shiv.

Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970

The last jaguar crash makes it 1000.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Aug 2011 09:27

Leo.Davidson wrote:
Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970
It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.

Now, what kind of idiotic statement is that?

You think IAF is someones fiefdom where things can happen by waving a magic wand? And that if some senior officers kin had died, the risks inherent in flying and other sources would have been reduced? Brilliant!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Aug 2011 16:18

Leo.Davidson wrote: It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.

Leo that is an ignorant statement. To anyone who knows, follows and studies the IAF your statement rings out as that of an emotional ignoramus. You have no idea. I have close friends in the air force - apart from being a mil aviation enthusiast from 1962. It is actually hurtful to read such idiocy.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Aug 2011 18:41

shiv wrote:
Leo.Davidson wrote: It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.
Leo that is an ignorant statement. To anyone who knows, follows and studies the IAF your statement rings out as that of an emotional ignoramus. You have no idea. I have close friends in the air force - apart from being a mil aviation enthusiast from 1962. It is actually hurtful to read such idiocy.

Leo.Davidson ji,

I am personally aware of very many senior Air Force Officers whose sons, sons in law and brothers were lost in accidents.

Your statement is either made in ignorance as Shiv politely suggests or is patently motivated.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Aug 2011 18:53

I am very suspicious of these newbies with less than a couple of posts who post like this.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Aug 2011 19:03

Surya wrote:I am very suspicious of these newbies with less than a couple of posts who post like this.

He'll learn. Before I started reading BRF, I used to believe the "Mig-21s are all flying coffins" nonsense too. Only difference is that I lurked a lot more before posting here.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Aug 2011 20:08

cross post

shukla wrote:IAF helicopter crashes near Hyderabad[/b]

An Indian Air Force helicopter crashed near Bommarasipet village of Shamirpet on the city outskirts, nearly 40 kms from Hyderabad, on Monday.

The Cyberabad Police Commissioner, Ch. Dwaraka Tirumala Rao, said a lone pilot flying the copter suffered injuries and was shifted to hospital. “Our policemen started for the place where the copter crashed. Reasons for the crash and details of injured persons would be known only after examining the spot,” he said.

The url is wrong - will edit when I find the correct url. Putting it here for the record.

Huhhh????

This report says "Kiran crash"
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 383968.ece

HYDERABAD, August 22, 2011
Trainee pilot survives by jumping from crashing Kiran aircraft

An Indian Air Force (IAF) trainee pilot escaped with injuries after he bailed out from a Kiran training aircraft minutes before it crashed in agricultural fields at Bommarasipet village in Shamirpet on city outskirts on Monday evening.

Police said the pilot Raj Kumar took off from Hakeempet station around 4.40 p.m. on a solo sortie. The aircraft crashed nearly 20 minutes later, the Shamirpet Inspector, Narender Reddy, said. Mr. Kumar reportedly landed on some electric wires near the agricultural fields, but he did not suffer any burns. He was rushed to the military hospital in Bollarum.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 06 Sep 2011 11:54

MiG-21 plane crashes near Chandigarh, no casualty - TOI

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 06 Sep 2011 12:11

this is getting ridiculous now.....

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 06 Sep 2011 13:59

kmkraoind wrote:MiG-21 plane crashes near Chandigarh, no casualty - TOI

Thats one way to get rid of the Mig-21 fleet

as long as the pilots keep ejecting on time.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Sep 2011 14:36

shukla wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:MiG-21 plane crashes near Chandigarh, no casualty - TOI
Thats one way to get rid of the Mig-21 fleet as long as the pilots keep ejecting on time.

each ejection has huge implications for the Pilots as far health issues are concerned and should be joked around, many get injured in the process. Underlines the need for LCA induction to be speeded up.

silod · Post by **silod** » 06 Sep 2011 16:28

I sincerely thought that the name "Flying Coffin" given to Mig-21 was not justified. But after seeing two incidents in quick time, I am sure that the name given to these aircrafts is absolutely correct. I am not finding a fault in the aircraft itself, it is a capable aircraft and has served the purpose well in the past. But now we need to do something on this front. Maybe something like "Rang de basanti" in reality.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Sep 2011 17:06

silod wrote:I sincerely thought that the name "Flying Coffin" given to Mig-21 was not justified. But after seeing two incidents in quick time, I am sure that the name given to these aircrafts is absolutely correct. I am not finding a fault in the aircraft itself, it is a capable aircraft and has served the purpose well in the past. But now we need to do something on this front. Maybe something like "Rang de basanti" in reality.

We cannot afford to ground the Mig-21's without getting thier replacements, it is a challenging aircraft to fly and land at its high speeds compared to other aircraft. We dont have data for many airforces including PAF and PLAAF on crashes, even F-16's and F-18 crash someting 18 F-16's have crashed in 10 months.

This flying coffin business is over the Top, Range De basanti was just psy-ops against George Fernandes- Highly inaapropriate to include here. Yes there are arms agents but you cannot elimnate crashes in fighter aircraft especially ones like the Mig-21 but unless we induct LCA's or MMRCA- we cannot just wake up and get rid of them either.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 06 Sep 2011 17:29

I feel sorry for the pilots who have to fly those MiG-21s. How long does the IAF wishes to flog those birds. IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them. Though the good part is, those will be decomissioned by 2012. So even the newest type 77 is 39 years old. MiG-21M/MFs (Type 96) were acquired between 1973-1981, so they are also 30+ now. The bis were acquired between 1977-1984 some of which ~125 were later converted to Bison standard. So even the newest bison airframes are 27+ years old. MiG-21s have served us well but It's high time that we retire them.

Cheers....

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 06 Sep 2011 17:36

At this rate, by the time they retire, there will be no airframes left for last flypast/gate guardians/museum pieces etc. Since they are crashing anyway, why not gift a few Type 96 airframes to DRDO for research on UCAV tech. etc. At least lives will be spared (in the air, on the ground, not so sure).

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 07 Sep 2011 14:37

In a miraculous escape, a young Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot sustained minor injuries after a MiG-21 combat aircraft crashed into a farm land, almost 100 metres away from Shambhu toll barrier, Rajpura, today morning.

Watch live video news

The pilot who sustained injuries has been identified as Flight Lieutenant Aurnab Ghosh. The mishap took place at least 30 km away from densely populated city areas, and thus, no loss of life or property is reported. According to information, the aircraft pilot was in touch with the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) and it was just seconds before the crash that Ghosh ejected himself from the aircraft.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Sep 2011 15:54

I hope the Pilot recovers soon and joins his squadron.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Sep 2011 20:03

neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them

No it isnt.

The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.

The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.

The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.

rad · Post by **rad** » 10 Sep 2011 15:03

Mig-21 crash details

Got a mail from his dad-- ie neighbours

On 06 Sep 11, I got a call from Ambala that my son Arunabh has ejected - So Mona & Self - we started packing our bags to leave for Ambala. After a tense hour, we got the full details of the crash. Arunabh (Flt Lt Arunabh Ghosh, a fighter pilot in the Indian Air Force) was on a routine mission at Ambala. When he was coming to land around 1027 Hrs, his engine quit and he had to "Pull the Handle" a parlance used in the IAF, where the seat fires out of the aircraft like a rocket before the aircraft crashes into the ground. Since he was coming in to land, his altitude was low (around 1200 Ft above ground)

Luckily, before the aircraft crashed, he could manouvre the aircraft in a clear area and there has been Nil Collateral Damage on the ground. Interestingly, he landed in a parachute in front of a Dental college where the girls came out to see him (and even took photographs with him) and the joke was "like Sharukh Khan in "Fauji" Serial". He was then picked up in a Helicopter and flown into the hospital.

We landed in Delhi and took a Taxi to Ambala to see him in the hospital, the same evening - He was in good humour(with his silly jokes). Arunabh is presently in Command Hospital, Chandigarh recovering fom a bad back, we just hope he doesn't have any spinal injuries, which we will come to know in about 7 days. Mona is with him.

I have received a lot of calls and messages . I am sorry I had a miss a few calls because when we were in ICU we could not take any calls.Both us really appreciate the care and concern shown by all and will celebrate the miraculous escape of my son - when he comes here on Leave soon.

Gp Capt Anup Ghosh, VSM (Retd)

So that is t he real truth folks , handsome kid

I have the pic of the young pilot could some one guide me on how to post it here.

rad

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 10 Sep 2011 16:21

For those who do not know, Gp Capt Anup Ghosh, father of Flight Lieutenant Arunabh Ghosh, was also a fighter pilot who had commanded a MiG 21 Squadron, and had to face a flame out on final approach forcing him to eject just like his son. Anup's accident was put down to a bird strike at low level. We do not yet know the cause of the flame out for Arunabh. Let us pray that his back is not injured in the process.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 10 Sep 2011 17:22

tsarkar wrote:
neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them
No it isnt.

The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.

The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.

The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.

tsarkar I would like to be corrected here but the following links say otherwise:

Last Updated: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 13:16 ...

With today's crash, the IAF has lost three fighter jet planes this year.

It had lost a MiG-27 warplane on February 16 this year in a crash near Hashimara and a MiG-21 Type-77 fighter aircraft on February 19 at Bagdogra, both in West Bengal.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/state-new ... 34112.html

Sunday, February 6, 2011, 9:30...
"As the modern aircraft join service, we would bephasing out the oldest variants of the MiG-21 (type 77) bynext year," IAF chief Air Chief marshal P V Naik said at theinduction ceremony of the C-130J Super Hercules here.

Cheers....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Sep 2011 17:49

rad,
For uploading pics, first upload them to an image hosting site and then give a link here.
eg:
Upload your pic to this site. This is the simplest site around..no registration or anything.
http://tinypic.com/

Then you will get the link which you can post here.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 10 Sep 2011 20:23

:OT:

Jagan ji, please check your mail.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Sep 2011 00:05

neerajb wrote:but the following links say otherwise...

Neeraj, these newspapers probably confused (or more likely sensationally replaced) type 77 (MiG-21FL) with type 75 (bis, the last production model), of which 300 were manufactured until 80s, and 125 were upgraded into Bison standard.

Now, since a squadron flies by type, and different types are not allocated to the same squadron for obvious reasons - a squadron has a dedicated role and needs same aircraft type to fulfill that role, training, maintenance purposes.

Now, of the last three squadrons flying Type 77, two were 30 and 8 - that have converted to Su-30. The third (51 or 52) became Suryakirans. So I ask the newspapers to report which squadron flies the Type 77

Also, an aircraft's life is typically 30 years, extendable to 40 via mid life upgrades. So, a MiG 21 built in 1980, upgraded to Bison will be airworthy until 2020, by which it will definitely be replaced.

Also, when spares supply stopped due to dissolution of the Soviet Union, the fleet did suffer. But so did Daewoo Ceilo and Matiz car owners or Peugeot 309. Remember the Cielo & Matiz - there used to be quite a few of them on Indian roads until the company tanked? The owners lost their investments.

Unfortunately fighter planes are a higher investment and one cant dump planes at instant notice.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 11 Sep 2011 08:32

So far all the type-77 crashes have been at Bagdogra airport. Check this:

http://www.warbirds.in/Crashes/crdetail ... no=2008006

Also the crash on 09 Feb, 2010 which involved squadron leader rahul tiwari and type 77 happened at Bagdogra airport as well. Does anyone know which IAF squadron operates from Bagdogra which is flying MiG-21s from there?

Cheers....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Sep 2011 09:06

MOFTU and OCU are the only FL equipped ones. I think OCU has been decomm'ed, so MOFTU is the likely answer.

added later : I guess everyone knows this but incase anyone doesn't, mig-21FL is known as type 77.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 16 Sep 2011 16:23

:Sorry, OT again:
Jagan,
sent you another mail.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Sep 2011 21:52

tsarkar ji, I was also under the impression that MOFTU is still equipped with the FL. Have you heard anything about MOFTU being re-equipped with the M/MF or Bis type?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 17 Sep 2011 02:55

tsarkar wrote:
neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them
No it isnt.

The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.

The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.

The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.

Via Phil Camp

this was taken at KKD in 2010 during Indradhanush III. It should answer your question (about FLs in Service or not). I notice some guy on the BR forum saying they have finished. Well I am pretty sure he is wrong and OCU is still going.

Having noted the above, I would stick my neck out and say that the IAF would not retire the FL without undertaking a proper retirement ceremony like they did with all the other recent types (Iskra's, MiG-25s, MiG-23MFs and MiG-23BNs)...