Military Flight Safety

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Mar 2010 13:22

Absolutely tragic.It is yet another KIran crash either before or during an air show.While one is not for abandoning such aerobatic teams,why do we have to use ancient Kirans for them,if it is proven that there were mechanical problems at the heart of the crash? The sad state of indcuting AJTs and yet-to-be-evaluated and inducted IJTs and even basic trainers into the IAF is an absolute disgrace,reflecting most unfavourably upon the GOI/MOD and IAF.Why can't the Def.Min. just lay down a "deadline" for decision making,whip the MOD into meeting the deadline and if it goes beyond,bring to book the babus responsible for the delay?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2010 14:40

What a sad day...

. Both dead..

Philip - I knew (personally and well) at least one of the test pilots who died testing the Kiran in the 1970s. Aftar all that the plane has actually been safe and proven at airshows. God knows what pains may have to be experienced with any new aircraft for airshows.

I have been watching the footage time and again. Clearly the plane could not pull out of the dive and kept rolling till it hit the ground. It looks as though there may have been some control failure. But I must not speculate.

Sad that people on the ground were killed as well. How come an air show was allowed over inhabited areas?

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 03 Mar 2010 16:29

Oh Man.....

RIP.....

The cussed luck of the Beloved City Continues.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 03 Mar 2010 16:47

Are these crashes common in other high-sortie rate countries as well?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 03 Mar 2010 16:49

R.I.P

Its so sad to here such news. As pointed out by shiv why did they allow the air show to be held over populated area.
This makes the fourth crash of this year and the most deadly one.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 03 Mar 2010 17:01

biswas wrote:Are these crashes common in other high-sortie rate countries as well?

Yes, USAF thunderbirds, Royal Air force Red Arrows and many other aerobatic teams have suffered multiple mishaps which have killed dozens of pilots and onlookers. Indian teams on the other hand have fared better. SKAT AFAIR has suffered only two mishaps were as this was the first one for the Sagar Pawan.

Kirans need to be replaced fast. I hope HAL realizes that every delay in LCA and IJT program is killing pilots.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Mar 2010 17:22

we all know that they were aware of the risks involved, yet it is never easy to come to terms with this type of news. hats-off brave men !

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 03 Mar 2010 17:27

The news is saying that the copilot tried to eject but as plane had already lost much of it's altitude. The parachute failed to open properly and the co-plot dell to his death.

Condolences to the family of both the pilots killed !

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 03 Mar 2010 17:31

Yep Rahul,i am sure the pilots may tried to steer clear of populous area in the limited time they have,one report says that one pilot managed to bailout but parachute didnt open while other perished trying to control

sad day for the country,i dont remember year or place but if my memory serves right in a berlin air show 2 fighters collided and fell right over the crowd resulting in death of many.(saw on TV in old DD days)

Added Later after googling

August 28 1988 - Ramstein airshow disaster (Ramstein, Germany) - Three members of Italy's Frecce Tricolori Air Force Display Team flying Aermacchi MB-339's were involved in a mid-air collision. The three pilots Lt. Col. Ivo Nutarelli, Lt. Col. Mario Naldini and Cap. Giorgio Alessio were killed and the wreckage from the collision landed on the spectators of the air show killing 67 people on the ground and seriously injuring 346.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 03 Mar 2010 17:38

I switched on TV and saw this.

Had met both of them during the Mig 29K induction less than 2 weeks back.
Have known them for a few years now;both enjoyed what they did.

I really don't know what to say.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 03 Mar 2010 18:12

Pilots may have tried to minimise damage: Navy chief

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2010 18:26

shiv wrote:What a sad day... . Both dead..

Philip - I knew (personally and well) at least one of the test pilots who died testing the Kiran in the 1970s. Aftar all that the plane has actually been safe and proven at airshows. God knows what pains may have to be experienced with any new aircraft for airshows.

I have been watching the footage time and again. Clearly the plane could not pull out of the dive and kept rolling till it hit the ground. It looks as though there may have been some control failure. But I must not speculate.

Sad that people on the ground were killed as well. How come an air show was allowed over inhabited areas?

The frame number of the ill fated Kiran was IN 078.

There seems to have been a difference of 30 - 35 degrees in the angle at which the ill fated aircraft pulled out and the angle at which the others pulled out as per what can be seen in the hazy videos.

The pilot of 078 pulled up much earlier than the others, washed out a lot of speed and then spun out.

Did the aircraft "g stall" or did the Engine stall / flame out?

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 03 Mar 2010 18:41

narayana wrote: A Surya Kiran crashed during hyderabad aviation show,

A small post about accuracy of comments:

--- The given name for HJT-16 built by HAL is Kiran
--- There is an aerobatic team of the IAF mounted on Kiran aircraft that is named Surya Kiran
--- The accident that took place in Hyderabad was in a Kiran aircraft being flown by a Naval aerobatic team named Sagar Pawan

Therefore, the expression A Surya Kiran crashed during hyderabad aviation show is inaccurate

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 03 Mar 2010 19:23

biswas wrote:Are these crashes common in other high-sortie rate countries as well?

Yes, formation aerobatics always has some inherent risks. I was at a Thunderbirds show where two F-16's briefly touched and a small piece of the wing flew out. Luckily none of the planes lost control. But yes, this has happened in all air forces.
- Su-27 of the Russian Knights crashed just before MAKS I think.
- Couple of years back the Blue Angels lost their 'No 6' when the F-18 crashed into a populated area.
- There is also the spectacular ejection pic of the Thunderbird F-16 pilot seconds before the plane crashed.

So it is always a risk and always very sad to lose these highly trained brave men who even in their last minutes try to save others before themselves.
RIP. Hope I dont see this thread for a long long time.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Mar 2010 09:49

The telugu papers are full of pictures of the incident. this one is from eenadu.

Pictures shows one of the parachutes deployed - perhaps a pilot ejected - outside the safety envelope.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2010 10:35

Jagan wrote:Pictures shows one of the parachutes deployed - perhaps a pilot ejected - outside the safety envelope.

Another report also mentioned this. It is a horrifying description.

According to eyewitnesses, Lt Cmdr Nair made a desperate attempt to eject from the aircraft. Though the parachute opened, it could not take the pilot away from the crash site. He first fell on electric cables and then on the ground and died. Cmdr Maurya died, trapped in the cockpit.

“We only saw one pilot dropping down like a stone. We did not even know that there was another pilot in the cockpit. The other pilot’s body was packed in a small box,” eyewitness Ram Kumar told DNA.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pa ... ss_1354981

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2010 12:00

A news report said that the Kiran-2 do not have zero-zero ejection seats,which would've saved the pilots,but earlier models which had sonme ejection speed parameters.Can someone clarify this point please? One can remember the Russian pilot ejecting at runway alt. successfully,after his aircraft (Flanker?) scraped the runway in a Farnborough air show.

THis crash will put immense pressure upon the MOD to accelerate the acquisition of more Hawks/new AJTs,IJTs and turo-prop basic trainers.Despite the La Fontaine report and the two decades of delay in choosing the Hawk as our AJT,even that decision has had its share of delivery/quality problems.One pities the IAF and the other service pilots who train on our venerable Kirans.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Mar 2010 13:36

I'm hazarding a guess here: Is it possible that the Senior Pilot (Cmdr) got the Junior Pilot (Lt.Cmdr) to eject and try and save his life while he himself tried bravely to control the aircraft?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Mar 2010 15:14

Philip wrote:A news report said that the Kiran-2 do not have zero-zero ejection seats,which would've saved the pilots,but earlier models which had sonme ejection speed parameters.Can someone clarify this point please? One can remember the Russian pilot ejecting at runway alt. successfully,after his aircraft (Flanker?) scraped the runway in a Farnborough air show.

THis crash will put immense pressure upon the MOD to accelerate the acquisition of more Hawks/new AJTs,IJTs and turo-prop basic trainers.Despite the La Fontaine report and the two decades of delay in choosing the Hawk as our AJT,even that decision has had its share of delivery/quality problems.One pities the IAF and the other service pilots who train on our venerable Kirans.

The Kiran ejection seat is a Martin Baker H4HA, and the parameters you are looking for are zero, ninety. Even zero zero seats would not have helped much in this case. When the aircraft is in a dive, the negative rate of descent gets added to the seat parameters in complex ways that do not always favor the escape of the pilot. Any seat has a safe envelope in which it is designed to function. A high negative rate of descent usually takes the seat well beyond the safe envelope.

The only phase of the flight where they could have ejected safely was the all too brief moment when the aircraft had stalled in near horizontal position after pulling out of the vertical dive. There after, the wing dropped viciously and the aircraft entered into the spin. At this point onwards the there was no chance of a safe ejection. Also recovery from the spin was not possible in the remaining height that the aircraft had left.

Even a novice pilot would not have pulled up the aircraft the way it came out of the dive. Both pilots were very experienced and had done this specific downward bomb blast maneuverer countless times. They would not have made such a potentially life threatening mistake.

For the aircraft to have come out of the dive in such an abrupt manner there has to be another cause. Such a deliberate pull up makes no sense at all and would have required great strength and both hands on the stick and the resulting g forces would have gone well beyond six.

Maybe a Russian zero-zero KD-36DM type of ejection seat would have helped. Just maybe.

. This very advanced Su 30 seat has redefined the safe envelope for ejection. Which is why many ruskies have walked away from near certain disasters during other air shows and also why the amrekis want it on their aircraft.

The Kiran is a nice and safe aircraft when flown within sensible limits. No doubt, its a bit long in the tooth but it still has plenty of life left. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water because of the speculations of the unwashed DDM.

When operating at the limits of the envelope some mishaps are bound to take place. No need to over react like the press always does, slyly egged on by a band of all too eager snake oil salesmen pushing their dubious wares. There are always hazards to military flying any where. You have to live with it.

Boudhayan · Post by **Boudhayan** » 04 Mar 2010 15:15

rohitvats wrote:I'm hazarding a guess here: Is it possible that the Senior Pilot (Cmdr) got the Junior Pilot (Lt.Cmdr) to eject and try and save his life while he himself tried bravely to control the aircraft?

Highly possible Rohit. Atleast that is what the unwritten norm that is followed in IAF.

Really salute these brave people !!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Mar 2010 15:50

Boudhayan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I'm hazarding a guess here: Is it possible that the Senior Pilot (Cmdr) got the Junior Pilot (Lt.Cmdr) to eject and try and save his life while he himself tried bravely to control the aircraft?

Highly possible Rohit. Atleast that is what the unwritten norm that is followed in IAF.

Really salute these brave people !!!

The crew had really very few seconds before they departed controlled flight. The workload in the cockpit would have been overwhelmingly and tremendously high with the pilot trying to recover the aircraft. The copilot would have been in complete sync with the pilot and helping out the best he could. Not much room for conversation under such trying circumstances.

If the CVR is successfully decoded assuming that it was not irrecoverably damaged, you may hear the actual last words in the cockpit and maybe a clue to the mishap.

I know of an actual case of low level engine failure in bad weather where the pilot told the copilot to eject and the pilot himself did not have the time to get out. He perished with the aircraft. The copilot is flying as an airbus Captain for Kingfisher today. Whenever we talk he never fails to mention his brave comrade who held the crippled aircraft steady for his safe ejection and thus saved him from certain death. Such is life and the camaraderie among warriors.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 18:18

That plane was hurtling nose down down at at least 500 kmph - or 140 meters per second (perhaps faster). That means an ejection seat that comes out of the cockpit will also be going downwards at that speed - since the plane was oriented nose down.

Even if it takes an ejection seat 2 seconds to eject and deploy a chute the plane would have had to have at least 280 meters - 900 feet altitude for any chance of the chute to bloom. Ejection at less than 1500 feet when your plane is going nose down at 500 kmph is probably invariably fatal. Zero zero or no zero zero.

Just a guesstimate...

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 04 Mar 2010 19:29

shiv wrote:That means an ejection seat that comes out of the cockpit will also be going downwards at that speed - since the plane was oriented nose down.

the seat ejects normal to the flight path at first and then gradually descents.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2010 19:38

Bob V wrote:
shiv wrote:That means an ejection seat that comes out of the cockpit will also be going downwards at that speed - since the plane was oriented nose down.
the seat ejects normal to the flight path at first and then gradually descents.

Sir - If the plane is moving down, the seat will continue to move down at the same speed even if it exits at right angles to the flight path. There is no force on earth that can prevent that under the circumstances. It will merely have an additional lateral velocity component (normal to the flight path). It's downward velocity component will in no way be affected by the imparting of a force normal to the direction in which the seat is moving.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2010 20:24

AFAIK the Suryakirans have one pilot per aircraft. Any reason why the Sagar Pawans operate with both?

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 04 Mar 2010 21:33

Shameek wrote:AFAIK the Suryakirans have one pilot per aircraft. Any reason why the Sagar Pawans operate with both?

Shameek, the Suryakirans also fly with two pilots in at least some of the aircraft - specifically, those on the left side of the formation.

The left-hand seat is the instructor's seat, and would normally be the preferred seat to fly from. But positions on the left side of the formation cannot be flown from the left-hand seat, because it is very difficult to formate, on the left side of a formation, while sitting in the left-hand seat - the pilot needs to be in the right-hand seat, to get the necessary visual cues while looking to his right, at the rest of the formation. So team members flying on the left side of the formation have to fly the aircraft from the right-hand, the student’s, seat. Now certain controls – the undercarriage controls, the canopy jettison lever – cannot be reached from the right-hand seat. So in practice, the aircraft flying on the left of the formations are flown by a pilot sitting in the right-hand seat, but also have a qualified pilot in the left-hand seat, just to operate those controls.

RIP to both pilots ... What can one ever say to the families, and team-mates, at a time like this?

Regards

Sree

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Mar 2010 02:04

Ecuador Lesson Learned, HAL To Install Control Saturation Warning System on Dhruv

HAL was lucky that the investigation into the October 2009 Dhruv crash in Ecuador turned out to be a clear case of pilot error (excessive manoeuver leading to cyclic saturation), but the company has obviously drawn lessons from the mortifying episode. HAL has put out a tender to fit the ALH Dhruv with with a Control Saturation Warning System (CSWS). The system will be added to the Dhruvs operated by Ecuador and could be retrofitted on all Dhruvs so far sold to the armed forces. The system will be standard fit on all Dhruvs manufactured from the time the system is finalised.

HAL is looking for a CSWS primarily to detect control saturation and provide incipient audio and visual warnings to the pilots (the audio and visual warnings should be provided to the pilots well before the Dhruv enters into the envelope of control saturation). Secondly, to command piezoelectric actuators towards reducing airframe vibrations Third, to compute and display mast moment and generate mast moment warning on exceedance of predefined limits. And finally, to generate a warning for rotor blade stall.

According to the RFP, "The control saturation warning system (CSWS) should be a current state-of-artfully digital microprocessor based processing unit capable of interfacing various input and output sensors/systems of the helicopter, implementing linear/nonlinear control laws, built in test (BIT) facility to monitor health of the unit, in-flight monitoring, better reliability and growth capacity." Compatibility with the conventional and glass-cockpit variants of the Dhruv is, of course, mandatory. The CSWS will of course be required to interface with the Dhruv's Flight data recorder (FDR) to record control saturation, mast moment and blade stall warnings(discrete output signals) and the analog output of the mast moment.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 10 Mar 2010 18:39

Crashes in 2009 and analysis in brief:
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -2009.html

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Mar 2010 07:26

AP Airshow Accident: Pilots Given Last Salute

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 26 Mar 2010 16:50

More than a year has passed since Saras crashed and the last press report on the DGCA crash investigation report was IIRC ->
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/21/stor ... 231300.htm

Has DGCA handed over the report to NAL? Btw, wouldn't the report be made public?
Didn't hear anything from the press so far?

I believe the next flight of the other prototype would depend on that?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Apr 2010 05:51

Sarang Team ALH Helicopter
Material Failure During Vayushakti, As Booster Rod Breaks, Results In Precautionary Landing !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2010 06:38

Cross post

shukla wrote:45% of IAF air crashes due to human error

A whopping 45% of IAF air crashes in the last six years have taken place due to human error. The IAF has informed the parliamentary committee on defence that it had recorded a total of 74 air mishaps between April 2004 and March 2010, of which a high of 42% was due to technical faults in the aircraft and a mere six% due to bird-hit. The figures in percentage would mean the IAF has suffered 33 crashes out of 74 due to human errors, 31 due to technical errors in the aircraft and another 4 due to bird hit. Reasons for the remaining six crashes have not been given to the Committee.

The Committee, in its latest report submitted to Parliament, noted with concern that these mishaps were taking place in the backdrop of the IAF facing a crisis due to shortage of trainer aircraft and obsolescence of simulators for its pilot trainees. It pointed out with concern that the IAF's Hindustan Piston Trainer-32, a basic trainer aircraft, had remained grounded for over a year now following a mishap early last year and the Kiran Mk-II HJT-16 simulators were in disuse.

The committee, headed by Congress MP Satpal Maharaj, said the Defence Ministry should take all steps to acquire new trainer aircraft and upgrade the simulators "so that adequate training is provided for pilots, which would definitely result in reduction of accidents due to human failure." The IAF has faced problems with HPT-32's engine and airframe, even as it spared all its Kiran trainers (usually used for secondary flying training) to enable rookie pilots to learn flying skills.

It also had a gap in its training syllabus due to the lack of an Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) when pilots moved on from Kiran aircraft to MiG-21 supersonic fighter jets. After a protracted process lasting 20 years, the IAF contracted to buy 66 BAE's Hawk AJTs in 2004 and the first lot were inducted for training pilots in 2008.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 Apr 2010 06:44

It will be good to know, what % of the 45% of human error could have been circumvented through better technology and training.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2010 06:54

ShauryaT wrote:It will be good to know, what % of the 45% of human error could have been circumvented through better technology and training.

The other critique of course is that when no cause of the accident can be ascertained it is sometimes attributed to human error.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Apr 2010 03:49

FINAL INVESTIGATION REPORT ON NAL'S SARAS
VERY VERY VERY disturbing article to say the least!!!!

The behavior of Test Pilots, the testing methodologies and the Airframe Design are not upto standards!
It is with a heavy heart, but I dare say this, this accident was a blessing in disguise.

Hope NAL get's it act to gather, redesign the aircraft so it is handled a lot better, and puts in place RIGOROUS testing procedures and co-ordinates it well with all entities involved. Hopefully can get more PROFESSIONAL test pilots rather than the lax attitude mentioned in the above report! Pity that because of a few, the entire program suffered and the pilots paid with their LIFE!

RIP!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Apr 2010 05:44

Another link to Saran news
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 52229.html

“After ascending to its designated height of 9,000 feet, the left engine was switched off. When the crew attempted to relight or restart it after a minute, it failed, resulting in the aircraft losing height, going out of control and crashing,” the report said.
All the three on board were charred to death and were on their seats. There was evidence of fire after the crash, while the aircraft fuselage was broken from rear of the main plane and found in an inverted position. The aircraft was completely destroyed due impact and fire.
“At about five minutes prior to crash, when some abnormal behaviour of the aircraft was felt by the pilots, the co-pilot was hilariously telling commander ‘road is there for emergency’ and also advised FTE (flight test engineer) for placing readiness of parachute for emergency.
These parachutes were not used by the pilots/FTE in the accident. It is not known whether the pilots were trained to operate the parachutes in case of exigencies. Records provided to the investigation are insufficient to show their training on parachutes exercise,” the report said.
Incidentally, NAL flew the same aircraft at the Aero India 2009 air show in Bangalore without the DGCA’s permission.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 Apr 2010 06:08

Saras Crash : DGCA Report Points To Serious Lapses
AVIATION WEEK

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Apr 2010 07:17

Craig Alpert wrote:FINAL INVESTIGATION REPORT ON NAL'S SARAS
VERY VERY VERY disturbing article to say the least!!!!

The report is heart rending, but for an aviation jingo the report also marks a milestone. The Aviation authorities in India have, as far as I can tell, for the first time released such a report into the public domain. I am glad they did that. It serves to dispel a whole lot of misconceptions about how accidents are investigated (or the idea that they are not investigated at all)

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Apr 2010 07:56

^^

True

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 23 Apr 2010 08:01

But what is of concern is the stated lapse on part of ASTE. NAL having chalta hai attitude is not a surprise. But ASTE did not follow same rigorous procedures for SARAS as it would follow for aircraft like Tejas, ALH, etc.