Military Flight Safety
Re: Military Flight Safety
Sanjeev, it's too premature to jump to conclusions. It may not be pilot error. There could have been a tech failure because eyewitness accounts say the jet "suddenly fell out of the sky" and was "plumetting towards a residential neighbourhood". The pilot somehow steered it away towards a field but lost too much alt and hit a power line and a pipal tree before crashing. They found his body still strapped to the seat. I'd say this young man is a hero
Re: Military Flight Safety
Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.
Re: Military Flight Safety
I am in Gorakhpur...and in recent times I could hear very frequent flying routines, even in Middle of night...Now its all silenced for a while...Gorakhpur airbase mostly consists Jaguar as mig 23 retired...
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Re: Military Flight Safety
^^
no need to advertise the flying routines of IAF, recommend you to delete the above post.
no need to advertise the flying routines of IAF, recommend you to delete the above post.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Please report my post...If moderators feel there is anything sensitive...
I don't think I shared anything which is not in public domain as of now...and if its a airbase...they are suppose to train....don't they...till the crash...
Anyways feel free to report it than dropping it on my conscience...
I don't think I shared anything which is not in public domain as of now...and if its a airbase...they are suppose to train....don't they...till the crash...
Anyways feel free to report it than dropping it on my conscience...
Re: Military Flight Safety
I was speaking to a serving IAF personnel on Sunday on such very incidents and I was amazed to hear what he had to say. he said that if there is a crash and the pilot survives, they try to save the pilot's career. on the other hand in such instances (where the pilot has lost his life), he tends to get the blame.sanjeevpunj wrote:^^^More indication towards pilot error.
Whats more, when the pilot's family is given the monetary compensation for their loss, Re. 1 is deducted from it as reprimand for having destroyed an a/c.
So please hold-on to the finger pointing and spare a thought for the aggrieved.
Re: Military Flight Safety
rohitvats wrote:Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.
residual powered is not the word.
Jaguars suffer from a lot of bird hits, on the trailing edge!!
Re: Military Flight Safety
What rohitvats said about lack of reserve power in the Jaguar is also true though. Its no secret that the aircraft is underpowered, which is why the IAF was looking to reengine it till RR's withdrawal from the tender froze that.chetak wrote:rohitvats wrote:Any maneuver(s) at such low altitude is fraught with danger with minimum to no margin for error. The fact that Jaguar as an a/c is not know to be too great with residual power ( a laymans interpretation for self) would make any sudden movement which requires quick surge of energy (like gaining sudden altitude and compensate for loss of energy) a difficult task. IMO, managing an a/c like Jaguar at such low altitudes requires hell lot of airmanship.
residual powered is not the word.
Jaguars suffer from a lot of bird hits, on the trailing edge!!
Re: Military Flight Safety
for all weather flying especially in the North East, will pilots equipped with SAR pods and the feed integrated into their helmets help? for fixed wing transport aircraft can they use retiring fighter
plane radars for SAR purposes? With ISRO getting ready for RISAT launch, I believe we do have the tech for SAR based navigation to happen
for rotary wing, continuing on the dicussion from the Kaveri thread, if they have Shakti engines drive a electric motor which then becomes the prime mover for the main rotor, does it help in reducing the vibration? so that a radar can be mounted above the main rotor?
Added Later: for SAR based navigation
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/b1radar/
plane radars for SAR purposes? With ISRO getting ready for RISAT launch, I believe we do have the tech for SAR based navigation to happen
for rotary wing, continuing on the dicussion from the Kaveri thread, if they have Shakti engines drive a electric motor which then becomes the prime mover for the main rotor, does it help in reducing the vibration? so that a radar can be mounted above the main rotor?
Added Later: for SAR based navigation
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/b1radar/
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Re: Military Flight Safety
It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970
Re: Military Flight Safety
Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970
Interesting statistic. Assuming it is accurate - it translates to 24 crashes a year or two a month. "Two a month is routinel" was the statement made to Nitin and me by a now very senior IAF officer about 10 years ago.
If I tell you that Indians marry their cousins and that this is odd the statement has little meaning unless I can also show that others do not marry cousins. If others are doing that a lot more - then my statement is misleading.
Unless someone can create a table of statistics for number of hours flown by the major air forces of the world including USA, Britain, Taiwan, PLAAF, Russia and Pakhanastan and say iof the IAF rate is higher or lower - we will never know what is "routine" or "not routine"
I am not trying to condone or dismiss accidents but we have zero figures from China or Pakhanastan. Or even Russia.
We do have figures from the US and this very therad may have a 2 year old discussion. Until about 5-6 years ago the Indian crash figures were much higher (per 100,000 flying hours) than the USAF. I had heard one explanation for this from my late cousin Suresh.
In the USA a fighter plane taking off or landing during an exercise often needs to maintain a strict queue system because of congested US airspace and may even be refuelled. So a "sortie" in US terms could be several hours. Many of these hours are spent in holding a landing pattern and non risky flying. In India a sortie for a MiG 21 may be just 45 minutes. So the US aircraft notch up far more hours of non risky flying per sortie while the IAF's Mig with their short legs notch up fwere flying hours for the same amount of risky maneuvering night/bad weather/low level operational flying.
I am not trying to condone or excuse manufacturing or maintenance defects.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Interesting post, Shiv.
The last jaguar crash makes it 1000.Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970
Re: Military Flight Safety
Now, what kind of idiotic statement is that?Leo.Davidson wrote:It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.Pratik_S wrote:Indian Air Force has lost 999 planes in crashes since 1970
You think IAF is someones fiefdom where things can happen by waving a magic wand? And that if some senior officers kin had died, the risks inherent in flying and other sources would have been reduced? Brilliant!!!
Re: Military Flight Safety
Leo that is an ignorant statement. To anyone who knows, follows and studies the IAF your statement rings out as that of an emotional ignoramus. You have no idea. I have close friends in the air force - apart from being a mil aviation enthusiast from 1962. It is actually hurtful to read such idiocy.Leo.Davidson wrote: It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Leo.Davidson ji,shiv wrote:Leo that is an ignorant statement. To anyone who knows, follows and studies the IAF your statement rings out as that of an emotional ignoramus. You have no idea. I have close friends in the air force - apart from being a mil aviation enthusiast from 1962. It is actually hurtful to read such idiocy.Leo.Davidson wrote: It's a SHAME. The article did not mention how many able-men were lost. It's a shame to loose so many man-and-machine in peace time. Apparently no senior IAF officer lost their kin, for the wheels to start turning.
I am personally aware of very many senior Air Force Officers whose sons, sons in law and brothers were lost in accidents.
Your statement is either made in ignorance as Shiv politely suggests or is patently motivated.
Re: Military Flight Safety
I am very suspicious of these newbies with less than a couple of posts who post like this.
Re: Military Flight Safety
He'll learn. Before I started reading BRF, I used to believe the "Mig-21s are all flying coffins" nonsense too. Only difference is that I lurked a lot more before posting here.Surya wrote:I am very suspicious of these newbies with less than a couple of posts who post like this.
Re: Military Flight Safety
cross post
Huhhh????
This report says "Kiran crash"
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 383968.ece
The url is wrong - will edit when I find the correct url. Putting it here for the record.shukla wrote:IAF helicopter crashes near Hyderabad[/b]
An Indian Air Force helicopter crashed near Bommarasipet village of Shamirpet on the city outskirts, nearly 40 kms from Hyderabad, on Monday.
The Cyberabad Police Commissioner, Ch. Dwaraka Tirumala Rao, said a lone pilot flying the copter suffered injuries and was shifted to hospital. “Our policemen started for the place where the copter crashed. Reasons for the crash and details of injured persons would be known only after examining the spot,” he said.
Huhhh????
This report says "Kiran crash"
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 383968.ece
HYDERABAD, August 22, 2011
Trainee pilot survives by jumping from crashing Kiran aircraft
An Indian Air Force (IAF) trainee pilot escaped with injuries after he bailed out from a Kiran training aircraft minutes before it crashed in agricultural fields at Bommarasipet village in Shamirpet on city outskirts on Monday evening.
Police said the pilot Raj Kumar took off from Hakeempet station around 4.40 p.m. on a solo sortie. The aircraft crashed nearly 20 minutes later, the Shamirpet Inspector, Narender Reddy, said. Mr. Kumar reportedly landed on some electric wires near the agricultural fields, but he did not suffer any burns. He was rushed to the military hospital in Bollarum.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Thats one way to get rid of the Mig-21 fleet as long as the pilots keep ejecting on time.kmkraoind wrote:MiG-21 plane crashes near Chandigarh, no casualty - TOI
Re: Military Flight Safety
each ejection has huge implications for the Pilots as far health issues are concerned and should be joked around, many get injured in the process. Underlines the need for LCA induction to be speeded up.shukla wrote:Thats one way to get rid of the Mig-21 fleet as long as the pilots keep ejecting on time.kmkraoind wrote:MiG-21 plane crashes near Chandigarh, no casualty - TOI
Re: Military Flight Safety
I sincerely thought that the name "Flying Coffin" given to Mig-21 was not justified. But after seeing two incidents in quick time, I am sure that the name given to these aircrafts is absolutely correct. I am not finding a fault in the aircraft itself, it is a capable aircraft and has served the purpose well in the past. But now we need to do something on this front. Maybe something like "Rang de basanti" in reality.
Re: Military Flight Safety
We cannot afford to ground the Mig-21's without getting thier replacements, it is a challenging aircraft to fly and land at its high speeds compared to other aircraft. We dont have data for many airforces including PAF and PLAAF on crashes, even F-16's and F-18 crash someting 18 F-16's have crashed in 10 months.silod wrote:I sincerely thought that the name "Flying Coffin" given to Mig-21 was not justified. But after seeing two incidents in quick time, I am sure that the name given to these aircrafts is absolutely correct. I am not finding a fault in the aircraft itself, it is a capable aircraft and has served the purpose well in the past. But now we need to do something on this front. Maybe something like "Rang de basanti" in reality.
This flying coffin business is over the Top, Range De basanti was just psy-ops against George Fernandes- Highly inaapropriate to include here. Yes there are arms agents but you cannot elimnate crashes in fighter aircraft especially ones like the Mig-21 but unless we induct LCA's or MMRCA- we cannot just wake up and get rid of them either.
Re: Military Flight Safety
I feel sorry for the pilots who have to fly those MiG-21s. How long does the IAF wishes to flog those birds. IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them. Though the good part is, those will be decomissioned by 2012. So even the newest type 77 is 39 years old. MiG-21M/MFs (Type 96) were acquired between 1973-1981, so they are also 30+ now. The bis were acquired between 1977-1984 some of which ~125 were later converted to Bison standard. So even the newest bison airframes are 27+ years old. MiG-21s have served us well but It's high time that we retire them.
Cheers....
Cheers....
Re: Military Flight Safety
At this rate, by the time they retire, there will be no airframes left for last flypast/gate guardians/museum pieces etc. Since they are crashing anyway, why not gift a few Type 96 airframes to DRDO for research on UCAV tech. etc. At least lives will be spared (in the air, on the ground, not so sure).
Re: Military Flight Safety
In a miraculous escape, a young Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot sustained minor injuries after a MiG-21 combat aircraft crashed into a farm land, almost 100 metres away from Shambhu toll barrier, Rajpura, today morning.
Watch live video news
The pilot who sustained injuries has been identified as Flight Lieutenant Aurnab Ghosh. The mishap took place at least 30 km away from densely populated city areas, and thus, no loss of life or property is reported. According to information, the aircraft pilot was in touch with the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) and it was just seconds before the crash that Ghosh ejected himself from the aircraft.
Watch live video news
The pilot who sustained injuries has been identified as Flight Lieutenant Aurnab Ghosh. The mishap took place at least 30 km away from densely populated city areas, and thus, no loss of life or property is reported. According to information, the aircraft pilot was in touch with the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) and it was just seconds before the crash that Ghosh ejected himself from the aircraft.
Re: Military Flight Safety
I hope the Pilot recovers soon and joins his squadron.
Re: Military Flight Safety
No it isnt.neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them
The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.
The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.
The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Mig-21 crash details
Got a mail from his dad-- ie neighbours
On 06 Sep 11, I got a call from Ambala that my son Arunabh has ejected - So Mona & Self - we started packing our bags to leave for Ambala. After a tense hour, we got the full details of the crash. Arunabh (Flt Lt Arunabh Ghosh, a fighter pilot in the Indian Air Force) was on a routine mission at Ambala. When he was coming to land around 1027 Hrs, his engine quit and he had to "Pull the Handle" a parlance used in the IAF, where the seat fires out of the aircraft like a rocket before the aircraft crashes into the ground. Since he was coming in to land, his altitude was low (around 1200 Ft above ground)
Luckily, before the aircraft crashed, he could manouvre the aircraft in a clear area and there has been Nil Collateral Damage on the ground. Interestingly, he landed in a parachute in front of a Dental college where the girls came out to see him (and even took photographs with him) and the joke was "like Sharukh Khan in "Fauji" Serial". He was then picked up in a Helicopter and flown into the hospital.
We landed in Delhi and took a Taxi to Ambala to see him in the hospital, the same evening - He was in good humour(with his silly jokes). Arunabh is presently in Command Hospital, Chandigarh recovering fom a bad back, we just hope he doesn't have any spinal injuries, which we will come to know in about 7 days. Mona is with him.
I have received a lot of calls and messages . I am sorry I had a miss a few calls because when we were in ICU we could not take any calls.Both us really appreciate the care and concern shown by all and will celebrate the miraculous escape of my son - when he comes here on Leave soon.
Gp Capt Anup Ghosh, VSM (Retd)
So that is t he real truth folks , handsome kid
I have the pic of the young pilot could some one guide me on how to post it here.
rad
Got a mail from his dad-- ie neighbours
On 06 Sep 11, I got a call from Ambala that my son Arunabh has ejected - So Mona & Self - we started packing our bags to leave for Ambala. After a tense hour, we got the full details of the crash. Arunabh (Flt Lt Arunabh Ghosh, a fighter pilot in the Indian Air Force) was on a routine mission at Ambala. When he was coming to land around 1027 Hrs, his engine quit and he had to "Pull the Handle" a parlance used in the IAF, where the seat fires out of the aircraft like a rocket before the aircraft crashes into the ground. Since he was coming in to land, his altitude was low (around 1200 Ft above ground)
Luckily, before the aircraft crashed, he could manouvre the aircraft in a clear area and there has been Nil Collateral Damage on the ground. Interestingly, he landed in a parachute in front of a Dental college where the girls came out to see him (and even took photographs with him) and the joke was "like Sharukh Khan in "Fauji" Serial". He was then picked up in a Helicopter and flown into the hospital.
We landed in Delhi and took a Taxi to Ambala to see him in the hospital, the same evening - He was in good humour(with his silly jokes). Arunabh is presently in Command Hospital, Chandigarh recovering fom a bad back, we just hope he doesn't have any spinal injuries, which we will come to know in about 7 days. Mona is with him.
I have received a lot of calls and messages . I am sorry I had a miss a few calls because when we were in ICU we could not take any calls.Both us really appreciate the care and concern shown by all and will celebrate the miraculous escape of my son - when he comes here on Leave soon.
Gp Capt Anup Ghosh, VSM (Retd)
So that is t he real truth folks , handsome kid
I have the pic of the young pilot could some one guide me on how to post it here.
rad
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Re: Military Flight Safety
For those who do not know, Gp Capt Anup Ghosh, father of Flight Lieutenant Arunabh Ghosh, was also a fighter pilot who had commanded a MiG 21 Squadron, and had to face a flame out on final approach forcing him to eject just like his son. Anup's accident was put down to a bird strike at low level. We do not yet know the cause of the flame out for Arunabh. Let us pray that his back is not injured in the process.
Re: Military Flight Safety
tsarkar I would like to be corrected here but the following links say otherwise:tsarkar wrote:No it isnt.neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them
The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.
The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.
The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.
http://zeenews.india.com/news/state-new ... 34112.htmlLast Updated: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 13:16 ...
With today's crash, the IAF has lost three fighter jet planes this year.
It had lost a MiG-27 warplane on February 16 this year in a crash near Hashimara and a MiG-21 Type-77 fighter aircraft on February 19 at Bagdogra, both in West Bengal.
Cheers....Sunday, February 6, 2011, 9:30...
"As the modern aircraft join service, we would bephasing out the oldest variants of the MiG-21 (type 77) bynext year," IAF chief Air Chief marshal P V Naik said at theinduction ceremony of the C-130J Super Hercules here.
Re: Military Flight Safety
rad,
For uploading pics, first upload them to an image hosting site and then give a link here.
eg:
Upload your pic to this site. This is the simplest site around..no registration or anything.
http://tinypic.com/
Then you will get the link which you can post here.
For uploading pics, first upload them to an image hosting site and then give a link here.
eg:
Upload your pic to this site. This is the simplest site around..no registration or anything.
http://tinypic.com/
Then you will get the link which you can post here.
Re: Military Flight Safety
:OT:
Jagan ji, please check your mail.
Jagan ji, please check your mail.
Re: Military Flight Safety
Neeraj, these newspapers probably confused (or more likely sensationally replaced) type 77 (MiG-21FL) with type 75 (bis, the last production model), of which 300 were manufactured until 80s, and 125 were upgraded into Bison standard.neerajb wrote:but the following links say otherwise...
Now, since a squadron flies by type, and different types are not allocated to the same squadron for obvious reasons - a squadron has a dedicated role and needs same aircraft type to fulfill that role, training, maintenance purposes.
Now, of the last three squadrons flying Type 77, two were 30 and 8 - that have converted to Su-30. The third (51 or 52) became Suryakirans. So I ask the newspapers to report which squadron flies the Type 77
Also, an aircraft's life is typically 30 years, extendable to 40 via mid life upgrades. So, a MiG 21 built in 1980, upgraded to Bison will be airworthy until 2020, by which it will definitely be replaced.
Also, when spares supply stopped due to dissolution of the Soviet Union, the fleet did suffer. But so did Daewoo Ceilo and Matiz car owners or Peugeot 309. Remember the Cielo & Matiz - there used to be quite a few of them on Indian roads until the company tanked? The owners lost their investments.
Unfortunately fighter planes are a higher investment and one cant dump planes at instant notice.
Re: Military Flight Safety
So far all the type-77 crashes have been at Bagdogra airport. Check this:
http://www.warbirds.in/Crashes/crdetail ... no=2008006
Also the crash on 09 Feb, 2010 which involved squadron leader rahul tiwari and type 77 happened at Bagdogra airport as well. Does anyone know which IAF squadron operates from Bagdogra which is flying MiG-21s from there?
Cheers....
http://www.warbirds.in/Crashes/crdetail ... no=2008006
Also the crash on 09 Feb, 2010 which involved squadron leader rahul tiwari and type 77 happened at Bagdogra airport as well. Does anyone know which IAF squadron operates from Bagdogra which is flying MiG-21s from there?
Cheers....
Re: Military Flight Safety
MOFTU and OCU are the only FL equipped ones. I think OCU has been decomm'ed, so MOFTU is the likely answer.
added later : I guess everyone knows this but incase anyone doesn't, mig-21FL is known as type 77.
added later : I guess everyone knows this but incase anyone doesn't, mig-21FL is known as type 77.
Re: Military Flight Safety
:Sorry, OT again:
Jagan,
sent you another mail.
Jagan,
sent you another mail.
Re: Military Flight Safety
tsarkar ji, I was also under the impression that MOFTU is still equipped with the FL. Have you heard anything about MOFTU being re-equipped with the M/MF or Bis type?
Re: Military Flight Safety
tsarkar wrote:No it isnt.neerajb wrote:IAF acquired MiG-21F/FL (Type 77) between 1964-1972 and IAF is still flying them
The last Type 77 was decommissioned in 2005-6 and the squadrons flying them 30 & 8 have already moved to Su30. 52 number was assigned to Suryakirans. These were the last Type 77 squadrons in service. I distinctly remember the decomm ceremony in some Delhi paper as they made their last flypast on Air Force Day.
The Type 96 M/MF will be decommissioned 2012, since additional 18+40 Su30 ordered CKD from Russia will be in operation by then.
The crashed plane was a Bison, had a CU tail marking.
Via Phil Camp
Having noted the above, I would stick my neck out and say that the IAF would not retire the FL without undertaking a proper retirement ceremony like they did with all the other recent types (Iskra's, MiG-25s, MiG-23MFs and MiG-23BNs)...this was taken at KKD in 2010 during Indradhanush III. It should answer your question (about FLs in Service or not). I notice some guy on the BR forum saying they have finished. Well I am pretty sure he is wrong and OCU is still going.