Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

Surya wrote:err vaibhav

source for the picture else you too go to reeducation camp!!!
Surya Sir,

These are open-source only. 4 Para SF and 1st SFG joint training for Ex Vajra Prahar this Aug.

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/specialfor ... 788196244/


These were kept 'Hush-Hush' for obvoius reasons!!
Surya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Thanks vaibhav :)

Rohit goes to camp alone
atreya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by atreya »

Btw what is the shiny piece of metal on the left upper arm. Something on the dress itself or any projection nearby.
It seems to be the blank round popping out onto his arm. Unless you are referring to something else :oops:
vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

Marut wrote:^^7.62mm Galil sniper and Tadiran radios with combat load vest... makes me guess they are 31 RR(Cdo)

Note the ear plugs! Nice touch. Btw what is the shiny piece of metal on the left upper arm. Something on the dress itself or any projection nearby.
Sweet...You identified the radio pretty well...it's the Tadiran PNR...It has a 1000m range IIRC...Our guys are getting pretty well equipment levels.


But then even the CNR has made its debut with infantry units. Can someone confirm this? @ Rohit any paanwala news...

Alas...Only if they change the sniper rifle.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by nachiket »

vaibhav.n wrote:
Alas...Only if they change the sniper rifle.
Why, what's wrong with the Galil? Weren't these acquired not too long ago, along with the TAR-21s?
vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

nachiket wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:
Alas...Only if they change the sniper rifle.
Why, what's wrong with the Galil? Weren't these acquired not too long ago, along with the TAR-21s?

Well yes, Galil as a Marksman kind of a weapon with ~ 550-600m range and a larger magazine might work absolves itself in MOUT but it does not provide the kind of depth that is required of an SF Assault Team or even a squad.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

vaibhav.n wrote: Well yes, Galil as a Marksman kind of a weapon with ~ 550-600m range and a larger magazine might work absolves itself in MOUT but it does not provide the kind of depth that is required of an SF Assault Team or even a squad.
Well, Galil Sniper is a marksman rifle after all. So, what is wrong with that? :-? And for greater range, there is SVD. And if we go for even longer range snipers, their weight and size will be even larger. That would make them even more exclusive MOUT and hardly a suitable weapon for an assault team.
So, can you give an example of a Sniper rifle which you would rather have Para SF equipped with and why?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

Surya wrote:Thanks vaibhav :)

Rohit goes to camp alone
My apologies Surya! The cat was already out of the bag so I thought I might as well contribute.

Best regards.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

aren't there some MSG in use as well or is that only for NSG ?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

nsg has both msg90 and psg1 I think.

per negi, this IA sniper is having a IMI Galatz
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/31686-1/ASwamedh.gif
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Surya wrote:Thanks vaibhav :)

Rohit goes to camp alone
:(( :(( :P :P
vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

Gaur wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote: Well yes, Galil as a Marksman kind of a weapon with ~ 550-600m range and a larger magazine might work absolves itself in MOUT but it does not provide the kind of depth that is required of an SF Assault Team or even a squad.
Well, Galil Sniper is a marksman rifle after all. So, what is wrong with that? :-? And for greater range, there is SVD. And if we go for even longer range snipers, their weight and size will be even larger. That would make them even more exclusive MOUT and hardly a suitable weapon for an assault team.
So, can you give an example of a Sniper rifle which you would rather have Para SF equipped with and why?

Gaur, The primary issue is endless debate is the bolt vs semi auto one. Even if we concede The problem is that the SVD has been replaced with the Galil. You then you jump directly to a larger caliber sniper rifle. IMO A .338 Lapua Round Rifle can easily do this intermidiate range job.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

vaibhav, thanks for the source. Till date the only pics of our chaps with Galil has been the RR(Cdo) hence my guess.

Galil is good enough for the kind of engagements our forces are facing in COIN ops. You don't need higher range in the urban areas nor in the dense jungles & valleys where visibility/line of sight will be a big issue. The longer range engagements can be done using the Dragunov or the Mauser SP66.

MGG-90 & PSG-1 are excellent sniper rifles for the 600-800m range. But they are very very expensive and require some special care to maintain them. Hence only NSG which operates mostly in the built-up environment situations use it.

Btw, please explain CNR and MOUT. I'm lost on these two acronyms.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

atreya wrote:
Btw what is the shiny piece of metal on the left upper arm. Something on the dress itself or any projection nearby.
It seems to be the blank round popping out onto his arm. Unless you are referring to something else :oops:
I thought about it too, but the round (if it is a bullet casing) is being ejected on the left side. Normally the round is ejected from the right side only. Or does the Galil eject on the left side?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sudhan »

I thought about it too, but the round (if it is a bullet casing) is being ejected on the left side. Normally the round is ejected from the right side only. Or does the Galil eject on the left side?
The rifle has a bipod which allows a neat swivel, Im guessing the spent cartridge ricocheted off the wall and lodged itself on his sleeve.. I've always had to endure the super hot casings going down my shirt after ricocheting off the protective walls of my shooting lane :(
vaibhav.n
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

Marut,

1. (MOUT) Military Operations on Urban Terrain or (FIBUA) Fighting In Built-up Areas.
2. (CNR) Combat Net Radio- What is unique to the Tadiran PNR is that they are full duplex, GPS and data transfer capability unlike traditional CNR's.

Cheers!!
rohitvats
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

I think the confusion with respect to the proper Sniper Rifle is because of the role envisaged.

This is what wiki says about DM:
The DM role differs significantly from that of a specially trained sniper. A sniper is a specialist highly trained in fieldcraft who carries out a range of specific missions independent of others, and more specialized than standard infantry tasks. In contrast, a DM is a soldier who has received some additional marksmanship training. The DM's role is to provide an additional capability to the infantry platoon, which is the ability to engage targets at greater ranges than the other members of the squad or section.
And to fullfill the above role, the DM Rifle has to have certain specific features. Again, this is what Wiki says:
A designated marksman rifle (DMR) is the weapon used by soldiers in the designated marksman role. The DM role fills the gap between a regular infantryman and a sniper and DMRs have been developed with this middle ground in mind.

These rifles have to be effective, in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics, at ranges exceeding those of ordinary assault rifles (typically up to 500 metres / 550 yards) but do not require the extended range of a dedicated sniper rifle (typically up to 1,000 metres / 1,100 yards).

DMRs, however, often share some basic characteristics with sniper rifles in difference to the weapons carried by others in the DMs unit. DMRs may have an attached telescopic sight, quickly deployed stabilizing bipod to allow accuracy in temporarily fixed situations or an adjustable stock
So, I guess, the entire debate centres on one points - does an SF team have a DM and hence, rifle like Galil in the inventory? When it comes to SF, the phrase horses for courses is most appropriate. The SF mat well have rilfes like Galil and other more specialized Sniper Rifles and use them as the situation and task warrrants.
Marut
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

The confusion between designated marksman and sniper is also due to the prevalent sniper rifle in IA being the Dragunov which is a DMR for all practical purposes. True blue sniper rifles like Mauser SP66 are few and far in between. Of course this could be due to the lack of any sniper program in the forces or the military doctrine doesn't envisage the need for such long range sniping! Anyways I'm not knocking on the SF for their choice of weapons, they are the operators and pros in this field and I'll defer to them.

Anyways for folks interested in sniper rifles, check this site out - http://www.snipercentral.com Pretty good resource on various rifles from an ex-US Army sniper.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by jamwal »

Delhi Police commandos have been equipped with Tavors. Saw a policeman a few days back standing near a DP Ambassador carrying the rifle.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by negi »

Galil ejects spent cases from the right side should be same for the sniper version too. Galil snipers are replacing SVD may be because former is lighter and more compact and in any case SVD was never a genuine sniper rifle. I think Mauser 66 , MSG90 and PSG1 are dedicated for that kind of role.
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

From Livefist: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/co ... arcos.html
Image
The photo above is of two Marine Commandos just off their inflatable at Rutland Island, Andaman. Lots more coming up. Stay tuned!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by member_20011 »

^^^^

Should not these commandos be wearing goggles for protection from water
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

^^
One can also say that they should be wearing their whole diving gear but the point is that you cannot tell what they are doing from one still pic. We don't know whether they need to swim or not. Their balaclava looks totally dry to me.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Juggi G »

Army Honour for Close Combat Warfare Expert
The Indian Express
Army Honour for Close Combat Warfare Expert
Manu Pubby

Posted : Wed Nov 02 2011
New Delhi


Team India captain M S Dhoni and ace shooter Abhinav Bindra, who were conferred honorary ranks of Lt Colonel by the Army Chief on Tuesday, stole the limelight at the official function in the Capital but the real hero was a third person — Deepak Rao, India’s leading expert on close combat warfare.
Rao, made an honorary Major in the Para regiment, is a doctor who has been training elite special forces of the country for 18 years. Rao, with his wife Seema, has trained over 15,000 troops from elite forces like the Marine Commandos, NSG and Garudas (Air Force) in a new form of Close Quarter Battle that has the sole aim to kill — using daggers, bayonets, small arms and even with bare hands.

While Bindra has been made an honorary Lt Col of the Sikh Regiment, Dhoni and Rao will join the ranks of the elite Parachute Regiment, the highly trained special forces of the Army. Dhoni’s choice for the Para regiment was simple, “I did not want to be restricted to the Kumaon or Garhwal regiment. I wanted to be a part of something that was not restricted (by geographic boundary). I also wanted to be a part of the best”.

For Rao, however, joining the ranks of the Para regiment was like ‘coming home’. He and his wife (also a doctor) train the soldiers in Unarmed Combat Tactical System, which employs principles from Sun Tzu’s Art of War, Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do and Close Quarter Battle tactics as well as modern techniques of close range shooting.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Now I have seen it all

Indias close combat expert

The dogs have truly come in to the Army :P
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by jimmy_moh »

i thought marcos are equiped with Tavors not INSAS
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

^^
Tavors are have only started getting inducted very recently. Before that, they mostly used AKMs in operations. Even so, INSAS was always part of their inventory.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Nick_S »

There were MARCOS with Tavors there as well.

The video should show some of the Tavor equipped MARCOS.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Vipul »

India's Defence Security Corps to grow by 30 percent.

In order to boost security of its defence office and strategic installations across the country, India will increase the manpower of a specialist force by 30 percent before 2015.

In a major expansion, the Defence Security Corps (DSC), which performs exclusively the role of securing defence offices and critical strategic installations, will grow to about 42,000 men in the next four years from its present strength of 31,000 men, government officials told IANS.

The proposed accretion to the force was approved this year and the effort to recruit 9,900 more men before 2015 commenced on Aug 1, they said.

With the new recruits, the DSC plans to raise additional 330 platoons of around 30 men each in the next four years.

Usually, the DSC recruits army personnel who retire at a very young age, to provide them an opportunity at re-employment.

"Raising of additional 330 platoons for the DSC has been approved by the government and it has commenced from Aug. 1. The process will be completed in four years from now," one official said.

The DSC, previously known as Defence Department Constabulary Centre, was raised in April 1947 at Mathura in Uttar Pradesh to ensure the protection and security of designated defence installations against sabotage and pilferage.

The DSC performs this duty in addition to the Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) at India's nuclear laboratories and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) establishments.

While, the CISF is purely a civilian central government security force under the home ministry, the DSC is a force under the defence ministry and comprises mainly superannuated soldiers, who are re-employed for a few years.
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

^^
DSC is not a special force by any stretch of imagination. I have generally seen them in the role of security guards in places such as AMC FMSDs (Medical Supply Depots) and similar places where the unit doesn't have sufficient strength to man the gates themselves.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

http://www.commandocombat.com/

not sure what exactly are his connections, but must be strong to get so much play in the army :roll:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by atreya »

*Deleted*
Sorry, wrong thread!
Last edited by atreya on 06 Nov 2011 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
JE Menon
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by JE Menon »

Re the commandocombat link.... The picture "Home Minister Accepts Encyclopaedia..." looks photoshopped to me... Someone more experienced with this sort of thing could offer a more informed comment :)
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

^^
The Encyclopedia looks odd for sure. The colours of the magazine seem to pop out a lot more than the background. On the other hand, the Encyclopedia seems to be a little curved in the lower right corner from where the lady is holding it. That part seems appropriate for a paperback book being held vertically.
So, it is difficult to confirm either way.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by tsarkar »

^^ I've zero understanding in these matters but sunlight is reflecting off PC inside a closed room! The rest of the room is dark, and the sofas seem out of proportion & perspective to each other.
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Nov 2011 21:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by tsarkar »

After the Nana Patekar movie Prahaar, his brother-in-law Lt Col Sunil Deshpande started an organization in Nagpur called Prahaar. Initial aim was to provide personality development and physical training for youth http://www.prahaar.org/

It also provides SSB coaching. Col Deshpande's daughter, who had a cameo role in the same movie (one of the girls who were jogging & whistled at), was one of the first girls to join IA (or was it IAF?)

The organization is well regarded by Nagpur youth and their parents. The defense establishment in Nagpur also views the organization in a good light http://mod.nic.in/samachar/july1-06/h7.htm

Nagpur is also famous for late Captain Chafekar, who imparted soft skills useful for both services and other job interviews. As a laid back town in the hinterland, Nagpur youth lacked the finesse and polish of soft skills that Captain Chafekar imparted. But being the distinguished gentleman he was, he mentored from the personality development perspective and not as a tution to get into NDA.

Bhosale Military School has been turning out fine boys since the 1930s, but more recently, has been associated with ex-servicemen associates of Sadhvi Pragya Thakur.

There is no clear demarcation between civil society and military services. In those gray areas exist good & shady elements.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ArmenT »

Singha wrote:http://www.commandocombat.com/

not sure what exactly are his connections, but must be strong to get so much play in the army :roll:
Not the Rao couple again. Newbies, please note that not everyone buys their claims.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by nachiket »

ArmenT wrote: Not the Rao couple again. Newbies, please note that not everyone buys their claims.
That Rao fellow was made an honorary Major by the IA recently. No idea why.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by jagbani »

<del>
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

^^ Why is this in SF dhaaga? Didnt see a mention of the "Garud" anywhere!
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