Discussion on Indian Special Forces

[sarabpal.s]

it is become fantasy part of thread. cool down guys start a new thread regarding terrorist attack and tactics

[aniket]

Also the terrorists would as usual declare that if they see any police presence they will start executing the hostages.What will we do then ?
Also if the terrorists are trained to keep only a no. of hostages alive and execute the rest without letting us know, what will we do ?

[Singha]

looking at the peruvian hostage rescue op, just look at the human rights legal aftermath of the issue!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_e ... de_Huantar

[nachiket]

Also the terrorists would as usual declare that if they see any police presence they will start executing the hostages.What will we do then ?

Those are a different kind of terrorist. The ones with demands. Terrorist involved in an attack like what Singha garu has outlined would basically be a fidayeen squad just like the 26/11 attackers. They will have no demands and their purpose would be to cause maximum damage and loss of life. You do not have any options in this case. You have to take them out as fast as possible for even a few of the hostage to have any hope of survival.

[ShauryaT]

Singha: I think your scenario needs some more mayhem. You have 50 well armed people on a suicide mission and all the mayhem so far is in two sore embassies. I think, they can do a lot more. They will have time on their side. By the time the NSG get there and pin them down, they should get out of the embassies and get to their next target. I would split the teams again into smaller groups of 10 or 5 and head in different directions.

Added: What if we assume, there is transport available and the new targets are softer ones like hotels in the area. Remember, the Parliament was attacked by only 4 people, if I remember correctly.

[shiv]

6. dividing into teams of 24 each, they penetrate both embassies , take hostages, gun down people , start fires, lob grenades at neighbouring consulates, fire RPGs with incendiary charges in a ballistic arc to target those further away and one enterprising lad even climbs to the roof and fires a ATGM that scores a direct hit on a lutyens dilli bungalow after describing a 45' arc. the embassy security staff is overwhelmed and boxed into corners and separated...wherever they put up resistance the heavy charges and LAW weapons smash their positions. thick 4" BP glass doors are shattered by RPG rounds. ex-SSG command the teams and show their expertise in blasting past obstacles quickly...all skills well honed in joint exercises with SEAL teams.

7. in meantime, anticipating the nearest rush of police forces, jeep borne faithfuls explode two car bombs directly inside the premises of the two nearest police stations where the first phone calls led to a massing of police to form a convoy and reach the scene. another couple of jeeps go off in a show of force in CP and in chandni chowk...to divert police attention to possibility of more car bombs all over the place. 4 expendable faithfuls. someone from "lashkar" phones CNN that 15 more car bombs are placed all around delhi incl near places of worship.

in this situation the nearest NSG unit is 1 hr away at best in maneswar. there is no CT trained force in delhi cantt let us assume. delhi police ATS is clearly inadequate for the job. some SPG and NSG is there in lutyens delhi but to guard VIPs and the first report sends them into lockdown mode to guard current charges. the PM is flown by helicopter to safdarjung and evacuated to a secure location. so they cannot help. all roads in and out of chanyakapuri and lutyens delhi are closed by police, with a couple of army batallions providing backup and setting up checkposts.

so you think these foreign govts would give a full clearance for indian forces to enter and engage the terrorists on their sovereign territory (embassy premises) or demand that we just secure the outer perimeter while they fly in their own CT units (ETA best case could be 6 hrs from afghanistan, 9 hrs from germany) ? would they even co operate to pass on internal details of their embassies and put the GOI in touch with the remnants of their security detail fighting but trapped in pockets inside?

should the indian PMO overrule their objections and go in anyway in the interest of saving lives and curbing the atrocity?

what kind of strategy would you use and what kind of units and resources would you deploy? remember you are not dealing with a small B-team of serpents here, but 24 x 2, the elite, the best of class, the toppers of the batch specially handpicked for this mission to heavily embarass india and make it seem impotent...and those tempo TTs came stuffed to the gunwales with weapons...the consulates themselves have ample food and water to loot from.

Cordon off the areas. Wait for everyone to be killed. Wait for the terrorists to starve and run out of ammo (10 days). Then take them out as they try to make a break for it or lie weak, dehydrared and senseless.

If you want to reduce the number of deaths. Cordon off. Send in spl forces and do a Mumbai like op. Some forces people will die of course.

The idea you have come up with is so attractive that one must wonder why it does not happen frequently in Indian cities? For that let me take a short break to thank our internal security people who are keeping me more or less safe. Thank you folks.

Now back imagining that the "noodles" of Indians need stimulation.

[Singha]

^Shaurya, well if they dont want to take diplomatic hostages to put pressure on india via foreign govts on some demands, they could indeed use a set of 4 wheelers and even bikes to roam all over south and west delhi shooting and bombing the place like a bunch of drunk cowboys. the net impact would be less though - the GOI has never really cared about commoner casualties...some will get away, police will bag some of them, next morning the water tankers will wash the stains off. the police ofcourse cannot track and chase down 10 independent teams...individual policemen will make their own decisions and manage as best as they can.

a while back there was a paschim vihar biker gang consisting of around 40 spolit brat youths who'd come out at night in places like CP, do stunts, abuse people, play games with police....one night the police had to deploy around 30 jeeps to trap and contain them inside CP before arresting all of them. all were kids of 'status families'. and this is the headache to contain one unarmed gang in a fast moving city like dilli with good roads.

[shiv]

so you think these foreign govts would give a full clearance for indian forces to enter and engage the terrorists on their sovereign territory (embassy premises) or demand that we just secure the outer perimeter while they fly in their own CT units (ETA best case could be 6 hrs from afghanistan, 9 hrs from germany) ?

That would make things laughingly simple for GoI. They need not take any action other than preventing foreign forces from landing on the sovereign territory of India. Let the diplomats die. What goes of their father?

the GOI has never really cared about commoner casualties

They need not care about foreign diplomatic casualties either. Why bother if the foreign governments are being stupid? I mean why should the GoI beg and beg and say "Please let us send our men to go and get killed on "your sovereign territory"? We will defend "our sovereign territory". Your armed forces are not allowed to land and operate in our country.

[member_20617]

I was thinking about a question and scenario last night.

1. take a populous tourist friendly area like karol bagh and nai dilli railway stn area..where lakhs of travellers come and go every day incl 1000s of foreigners. nobody cares who you are so long as you can pay the tab.

2. a hit team of 50 mujahids come together from all over india by train and plane and gather at a couple of hotels in the area in small grounds of 2s and 3s. some are pak trained, some are ex-SSG come in via nepal->eastern UP, some are trained with camps in india itself like those periodically reported in the south. all are prepared to die.

3. next couple of days they lie low and meet the local handlers who will provide the transport on D-night. they visit the target area as tourists and lay citizens by city bus to familiarize themselves.

4. on D-night after a good meal and prayers, tourist Tempos come to take them away from the hotel for a pkged trip to Jaipur, ofcourse enroute they stop at a warehouse abutting the delhi ridge's northern section to pickup a consignment of heavy explosive charges and LAW weapons (RPGs mostly). they proceed around 10pm to target area which is the diplomatic area of chanyakapuri.

5. alighting from the vans in a timed synchonized manner at multiple points around the huge embassies of two important countries which lie close together, their LAW teams easily shred the Delhi police jeeps positioned around the area. the policemen have no defence against such heavy weapons. one jihadi wearing a backpack charge blasts the entrance door to one of the embassy, while one of the vans packed with heavier charges and driven by another jihadi rams and smashes the entrance to the other embassy.

6. dividing into teams of 24 each, they penetrate both embassies , take hostages, gun down people , start fires, lob grenades at neighbouring consulates, fire RPGs with incendiary charges in a ballistic arc to target those further away and one enterprising lad even climbs to the roof and fires a ATGM that scores a direct hit on a lutyens dilli bungalow after describing a 45' arc. the embassy security staff is overwhelmed and boxed into corners and separated...wherever they put up resistance the heavy charges and LAW weapons smash their positions. thick 4" BP glass doors are shattered by RPG rounds. ex-SSG command the teams and show their expertise in blasting past obstacles quickly...all skills well honed in joint exercises with SEAL teams.

7. in meantime, anticipating the nearest rush of police forces, jeep borne faithfuls explode two car bombs directly inside the premises of the two nearest police stations where the first phone calls led to a massing of police to form a convoy and reach the scene. another couple of jeeps go off in a show of force in CP and in chandni chowk...to divert police attention to possibility of more car bombs all over the place. 4 expendable faithfuls. someone from "lashkar" phones CNN that 15 more car bombs are placed all around delhi incl near places of worship.

in this situation the nearest NSG unit is 1 hr away at best in maneswar. there is no CT trained force in delhi cantt let us assume. delhi police ATS is clearly inadequate for the job. some SPG and NSG is there in lutyens delhi but to guard VIPs and the first report sends them into lockdown mode to guard current charges. the PM is flown by helicopter to safdarjung and evacuated to a secure location. so they cannot help. all roads in and out of chanyakapuri and lutyens delhi are closed by police, with a couple of army batallions providing backup and setting up checkposts.

so you think these foreign govts would give a full clearance for indian forces to enter and engage the terrorists on their sovereign territory (embassy premises) or demand that we just secure the outer perimeter while they fly in their own CT units (ETA best case could be 6 hrs from afghanistan, 9 hrs from germany) ? would they even co operate to pass on internal details of their embassies and put the GOI in touch with the remnants of their security detail fighting but trapped in pockets inside?

should the indian PMO overrule their objections and go in anyway in the interest of saving lives and curbing the atrocity?

what kind of strategy would you use and what kind of units and resources would you deploy? remember you are not dealing with a small B-team of serpents here, but 24 x 2, the elite, the best of class, the toppers of the batch specially handpicked for this mission to heavily embarass india and make it seem impotent...and those tempo TTs came stuffed to the gunwales with weapons...the consulates themselves have ample food and water to loot from.

SinghAji

Why are you giving deadly ideas to our sworn enemies?

[Klaus]

Generate a local EMP pulse which takes out all electronics in the area. A division of Indian spec-ops should revert to vacuum tube based communications.

Selectively have a large dose of anthrax pumped into the piping of the two embassies in question. The Soviet Union had a strain which was gender specific, which could be used in this case.

Have specialized sanitation and emergency crews on stand-by 24/7. IOW, India will have to break its obligation to the BWC under duress.

[Singha]

>> Why are you giving deadly ideas to our sworn enemies?

I am sure they are more industrious than having to trawl brf for ideas on how to be terrorists . and I would be most surprised if delhi police and NSG have NOT gamed this kind of large scale assault on the diplomatic quarter / lutyens delhi zone and how to respond properly. its their main job anyways in the NCR. even if they had not, after 26/11 they would have.

the idea of selectively using incapacitating gases is interesting but remember the high profile consulates would have some form of air sealing / isolation to guard against jihadis trying this theory themselves! this will prevent or atleast degrade any efforts by our police to use the same means.

remember the personal jetpack type thing in 1984 olympic opening ceremony?. given the near impossibility of paradrops onto uneven roofs and gardens swept by enemy fire and the RPG threat to any Mi17 attempting to hover for a rope assault, either a directional jetpack or a stubby winged thing people play around with might present some hope of getting a section of commandoes onto the rooftop in good order. there exist plane and rotary type models
transformer3 had a squad doing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX39xcA ... re=related

i saw a dream the other day...jihadis had for some reason taken over my old PU college. it had flat roofs. GOI cuts the power and a 4 man team parachutes onto the roof at night from a high drop and kills the intruders using silenced pistols.

[Klaus]

^^^ Singha ji, I meant anthrax in the water piping systems (including the fire hydrant system), a specific one which would infect the males only. Even if the faithfool decide to boil water for drinking purposes it would be futile. Declare a zone 1 km outside the cordon as a bio-hazard area.

It is another thing that we will have to completely strip down the plumbing of the vicinity after the incident with extensive and expensive sanitation project in place asap.

I was thinking on the lines of launching a NSG shock and awe attack through the Delhi Metro feeder/service systems near Chandni Chowk. The service would be made inoperative for the time-being.

Perhaps the best alternative is wasp-sized UAV's flying/loitering and ambushing every nook and corner and shooting poison darts onto the jugular veins of the jihadis. There was a program on darts inducing cardiac arrest and leaving inconspicuous acne like marks on the skin.

[Lalmohan]

shankaraa - each component of this scenario has already been done by our little green bearded friends. if you read about the fertile imagination of these folks, things like this have been thought about in various permutation/combinations for some time

singha - i fear that in this scenario it will be near impossible to rescue hostages alive. just about the only thing preventing this type of thing taking off is the overall implications for the sponsor at a political and diplomatic level. tactically - it is quite do-able

[darshhan]

Singha ji , I would like to increase the complexity of your scenario.Assume that these attackers are wearing Delhi Police uniforms(or that of some other security Force such as CRPF).If ever such an attack takes place and Ex SSG personnel are involved , we should expect this.

[Singha]

indeed. even black cat uniforms are nothing special. must be sold by the 100s in the bylane tailor shops. wearning NSG uniform and conveniently using MP-3/MP-5 (paki OFB makes them and could easily run a special lot stamped with fake serial nos and makers id for plausible deniability) would get them even easier run of the place.

[Lalmohan]

dont forget the deccan mujahideen id cards

[Singha]

could be RSS id cards too

[Lalmohan]

or mix it up
car bomb into some embassy's
jehadi commando assault on others
hang glider soosai bummer on some
masquerading guards/kitchen workers with bums/guns in others
all going off at the same time!

[Aditya G]

It's not possible to arrange such an operation without intelligence agencies getting a whiff of it.

That's exactly why the last mass assault (26/11) was from sea:

1. Ability to carry arms with you thru the operation (simplifies complexities from drop offs and pick ups)

2. Simpler to travel in a large group instead of splitting up and RV'ing at same time and place

3. Lesser chance of being caught by 'men on the ground' during travel

4. No border crossing

Though one must add that 13-Dec parliament attack is close to Rudra's scenario.

[Aditya G]

Thought of some fantasy desi equivalents of JSOC:

Army Commander, Northern Command
- 1st Joint Special Forces Division
-- 1 x Para (SF) Bn
-- 1 x MARCOS Team (Wullar)
-- 31 RR (Para)
-- 22 SF
-- 2 x Garud Force flights
-- 155 Helicopter Unit (Mi-17V5)
-- 202 Army Aviation Squadron (HAL Rudra)
-- B Flight, 25 Sqn AF (An-32)
-- 3005 Sqn AF (Searcher Mk2)

Chairman, Chief of Staff Committee
- Joint Special Forces Command (Rapid Reaction)
-- 50th Para Bde (I)
--- 1 x Para Bn
--- 1 x Para (SF) Bn
--- 1 x Para Field Regiment (Artillery)
-- 91st Infantry Brigade
-- 77 Sqn IAF (C-130)
-- 1 x An-32
-- 111 HU (ALH Dhruv)
-- 114 HU (Mi-17V5)
-- 2 x MARCOS teams
-- 2 x Garud Force flights
-- INS Jalashwa
-- A Flight, 25 Sqn IAF (IL-76)
-- INAS 342 (Heron)

[Singha]

I have a question - the first units to encounter any terrorist squads are likely the local armed police at places like checkposts or the local ATS called in to help out in a situation where the terrorist den is known on a tip off. afaik all over india they are armed with a mix of AK56 / INSAS / FN-FAL / pistols / revolvers depending on state govt , have weak BPJ (note the paper thing mumbai police ones in 26/11 and lack in CQB army style training for a sustained gunfight as opposed to a quick grab )

then I read of the BSF planning to import beretta carbines. imo the cops also need a semi automatic 9mm carbine of compact dimensions and 20-30 rd mag with proper training. velocity enough to pierce cars but not enough to fly 400m and kill someone else if it misses. and they need intensive training because in real life the first couple of bursts and who lands it usually might determine the winner. they need CT unit type training using fake houses and town streets.

the UK armed police seem to use H&K weapons. H&K is also a option if Beretta or Colt wont work. INSAS carbine is also a cheaper option.

running around with a giant FN-FAL in a urban battle as mumbai police were forced to do is sad.

[sum]

X-post :

Marcos video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Euv8VNN ... r_embedded

The video is titled incorrectly on youtube.

Lots of amazing footage of the MARCOs and its training.

Marcos East in the vid = Vizag unit?

[shiv]

Deccan Mujahideen ID cards? RSS ID cards. You guys are behind times. Nowadays it is UID Adhaar biometric identity cards faked so that the actual fingerprints and iris image is of Yuvaraj (not Singh)

But I digress.

I am no arms expert. Only an armchair martial artist. But it occurs to me that if you give any man a firearm everyone around who cannot take cover behind bulletproof shelter (tree/wall) is in some danger depending on the weapon the man has and the amount of ammunition he is carrying.

If he has a pistol, anyone beyond 50 meters relatively safe although one could die even 100 meters away. But at 200 meters the danger is small. With a submachine gun, the danger radius is within about 200 meters. For a Kalashnikov/INSAS - I guess it is about 500 meters. For a Ishapore/FN or 303 the danger zone would be 800 plus meters.

Most urban environments offer walls and protection within 50 meters, and that protection works for terrorist and policeman so the actual weapon range is less significant. But weapon accuracy and the ability to fire it/hold it in a confined space becomes important for anyone who wants to get close and closer to a hiding terrorist and the cover available is smaller and smaller.

However when one works in a team, you equip 25 men with INSAS/Kalashnikov and keep them at vantage points 200-300 meters away taking cover and providing continuous fire to make the terrorist keep his head down (assuming you know where he is) while other commandos move closer with smaller and more compact weapons till they too can take him out with a grenade.

Once again I recall a question asked on BRF a decade ago by someone who mockingly asked why 50 army men were involved in a hunt that took out 2 terrorists. I recall having been greatly upset by the sheer stupidity of the question. A 500 meter radius around one Kalashnikov armed terrorist translates to a 3 km circle where anyone can get killed. But a 3 km circle with men 100 meters apart still requires 31 men with INSAS/ Kalashnikov. And 3 teams of 3 men moving forward on a hideout shows why you need lot of men to take out just one man with a Kalashnikov. In a forest you can't use mortar. But RPG may be OK in line of sight. In the city - RPG into a window may be OK. Most good dead Pakis that i see in photos have burn/singe marks and the hideout houses are invariably demolished, but surrounding houses intact.

[Singha]

a long time ago(decade+), one of my friends who worked in pioneer or asian age then actually took out a driving license in delhi with his own name but the passport photo of the then vice President of India. the article was published in his paper and the owner gave him a cash award. I am sure things have improved since then but one never knows.
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-06-12/ ... d-document
India, after all, is where Somnath Batabyal, an undercover reporter for the Pioneer newspaper, was able to get a driver's license last month in the name of the country's vice president, Kocheril Raman Narayanan, complete with his official residential address, by paying $55 to an agent who knew crooked functionaries at the State Transport Authority.

To pass the driving test, all the journalist had to do was sit in a car while an inspector drove it a few inches.


I am sure SF units can handle any weapon appropriately, but its also true that its the local cops in urban megacities who make 1st contact in any incident and likely to sustain the initial heavy casualties trying to run the hit team to ground or save people. granted you cannot train the local cops to the time x expense of a SF unit/NSG but if we give them a suitable weapon thats easier to handle in the confined spaces of indic cities and their vehicles it might be better than this:
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/files/2008/11/terror.jpg

that gun is powerful enough to probably kill 4 people in a row if fired at close range. and too long to manouver in cqb inside a house for instance.

these people risk their lives routinely in odd places. giving them right tools in my mind is as important as the next super GMTI/SAR soln for rafale target picking.

[Aditya G]

Whats the drum fed LMG b/w 3:00 to 4:00?

X-post :

Marcos video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Euv8VNN ... r_embedded

The video is titled incorrectly on youtube.

Lots of amazing footage of the MARCOs and its training.

Marcos East in the vid = Vizag unit?

[Singha]

marcos east could be in port blair or elsewhere in A&N..thats their playground

the LMG looks like M249 SAW used in khan forces.

[nachiket]

The gun is probably a IMI Negev. I remember seeing a pic of an Indian soldier (don't remember if he was from MARCOS or PARAs) firing a negev long time back. I'm unable to locate that pic anywhere now.

[member_21708]

The gun is probably a IMI Negev. I remember seeing a pic of an Indian soldier (don't remember if he was from MARCOS or PARAs) firing a negev long time back. I'm unable to locate that pic anywhere now.

[rahulm]

marcos east could be in port blair or elsewhere in A&N..thats their playground

the LMG looks like M249 SAW used in khan forces.

It.s a collection of various assorted MARCO video's stitched together from various training exercises over a period of time, mostly off the east coast. I won't say where.

[member_20317]

With a Spotter and much better maintained unlike the second one below.



Fairly worn out



But what version is this. Much shorter barrel? Also what org does this guy could be from?

[aniket]

The last Dragunov looks like the SVDS version.

[Singha]

iirc that people climbing gateway of india were marcos.

[member_20317]

I remember seeing these pics in BR but could not locate them.

Re. last pic
The version I am not sure on. But in an urban setting at height I would expect the use of a longer barrel perhaps even a different weapon altogether. But this guy has apparently a new weapon. I guess the specialists job be best left to specialists.

Also what concerned me was the worn out weapon in the second pic (lost his cheekrest). Either the Designated Marksman is very very comfortable with his own weapon or could it be something else.


Also @Aniket, they are all various druganovs with various scopes. Unfortunately I am only a mango man on such matters. At first look the stock looked like a folding one to me. Also the shorter barrel made me think if its some Para SF version. I just needed some tips.
In time perhaps.

[aniket]

I'm no better.I just saw some pics and i guessed which one i thought resembled it the most

[Marut]

Also what concerned me was the worn out weapon in the second pic (lost his cheekrest). Either the Designated Marksman is very very comfortable with his own weapon or could it be something else.

The bold isn't necessarily true. The portion where the cheekrest should be is obscured by the barrel tip of the soldier beyond the frame on the left side.

[Marut]

The Dragunov with wooden butt stock is the original model SVD. The folding butt stock model is the SVD-S meant for airborne infantry. The barrel is shorter but heavier.

IIRC the marcos cleared out by noon on 27th itself once NSG took over. I'm not sure that the guys atop of Gateway of India stayed put. They might as well be the Ghatak battalion that setup the perimeter around the Taj, willing to be corrected though.

[member_20317]

Marut you are right about the third soldier outside the frame but as I see it. The Cheekrest is actually there (compare the positioning of cheekrest in the 3 pics). I suggested the loss of cheekrest because of the string like thing that holds the cheekrest where it is. Probably a jugaad.

The barrel if shorter but heavier for airborne infantry, could also be using a different ammo. Just guessing here.


Also, while reading, what I noticed was the effective range that Indians give for this weapon which is invariably stated to be around 30% less than the stated effective for like chinese copies of SVDs. But something I found suggests the H&D by chinese manufacturers. Indians it seems are putting the effective range at what they think they can achieve at their reasonable best.

[rohitvats]

^^^Marut, there is nothing like a Ghatak batallion....it is a platoon within an infantry unit. Those pics are infact of men from MARCOS. There was a detailed discussion on these pics and Dargunov version on BRF.

[member_20317]

rohit, it was after reading some part of these discussions that I began reading about SVDs. I have a lot of respect for this weapon now and for the way it is deployed presently.

For future though it seems IA could get even better results by having a bigger program for Snipers.

[rohitvats]

Dragunov is a not a sniper rifle in classical sense. But does the job in our case.