Discussion on Indian Special Forces

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Jan 2015 17:20

but, I so want to believe "Studd-helmets with a dust-cover" and the oven-mitts story..... We seem to never get these things fitted out

(btw, those flame retardant face-covers gives us a vision of firm action amidst lots of burning aviation fuel with PLAAF roundels showing through)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jan 2015 17:36

rkhanna wrote:
This is one i remember about Garud eqpt
The Fancy Equipment only comes out when they are infront of the camera (Natgeo/NDTV,etc) or cross training with the Americans. In real live ops (like the recent COIN in Kashmir) the Equipment is still mix and match.

Which makes me wonder if our Headshed is buying Equipment only for propoganda or there is actual real world troop enhancement on the ground. getting our SOF policy/doctrine in place is as critical as buying nuke subs and Aircrafts.

dunno, when was garud in any COIN?
SF guys in J&K have been seen with all sorts of eqpt. they seem to prefer vz.58s, occasional sprinling of tavors and m4s (scuttlebutt says latter isnt popular, has reliability isues) and on the plus side BPJs and radios are common.

i suspect they deliberately keep it low key since the true SF ops are never on TV. what we do see are the light infantry style stuff.

rashtriya rifles and army regulars seem well equipped too but patkas are still common, leading me to suspect ballistic helmets are not in bulk supply.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jan 2015 17:41

Karan M wrote: dunno, when was garud in any COIN?
SF guys in J&K have been seen with all sorts of eqpt. they seem to prefer vz.58s, occasional sprinling of tavors and m4s (scuttlebutt says latter isnt popular, has reliability isues) and on the plus side BPJs and radios are common.

i suspect they deliberately keep it low key since the true SF ops are never on TV. what we do see are the light infantry style stuff.

rashtriya rifles and army regulars seem well equipped too but patkas are still common, leading me to suspect ballistic helmets are not in bulk supply.

I am not sure but I do not think Garud have seep action so far. Also, IMO, they are not in the same league as Army Special Forces.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Jan 2015 23:29

Garuds have been deployed in operation triveni (naxal ops) and in congo un ops.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jan 2015 02:52

NSG is using Russian helmets
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P-YxGxhmHVM/U ... 70647.jpeg
Russian SF ballistic helmet ZSH-1
Alpha (http://i.imgur.com/Erb9DTq.jpg)

Whereas IA and IA SF is using a local variant of Patka - wonder whether top is protected?
http://imageshack.com/a/img834/8310/xvs9.jpg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2015 03:50

Raja Bose wrote:Wait! We went from going about scooter helmets to baking mitts?

Despite three mods on this page!!

Now add a fourth.

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Jan 2015 04:26

sum wrote:^^ Always remember the "Black Hawk Down" scene where the first KIA of the mission happens when the Blackhawk suddenly swerves( to avoid incoming PRG) when the ranger is slithering and he looses grip and goes down hard

Speaking of which, BRF had linked a article 2-3 years back speaking of formative steps being taken for formation of a desi 160th SOAR type squadron. Any further updates on that front?

sum wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:The guy who fell is still alive iirc.
Need to rewatch the movie onlee...

Somehow thought he breaks his neck or something.

Read the book if you get a chance! So much better than the movie.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jan 2015 09:45

NSG is using Russian helmets
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P-YxGxhmHVM/U ... 70647.jpeg
Russian SF ballistic helmet ZSH-1
Alpha (http://i.imgur.com/Erb9DTq.jpg)

Actually I have been told NSG uses the Austrian Helmets..forget the name (Courtesy GSG-9 influence)

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 21 Jan 2015 10:47

Karan M wrote: Whereas IA and IA SF is using a local variant of Patka - wonder whether top is protected?
http://imageshack.com/a/img834/8310/xvs9.jpg

I have often wondered the same thing. Sides look very well protected and should stop shrapnel easily. However the top 'looks' thinner than the side. Anyone caught in the open by artillery is going to be face down leaving the top part of the helmet facing forward. I will assume the designers took this into account and made the top strong enough to resist shrapnel.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Jan 2015 10:58

I have seen a patka 3 years back manufactured by an Indian company. Sides are hard and fairly rigid. Looked like they used something hard in addition to kevlar(assuming they used it). Top was just kevlar or something similar. Sides do have better protection than top. The whole contraption is on the heavier side. Don't know how heavy helmets are, so cant make a comparison.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 21 Jan 2015 11:38

Patka is essentially an armoured steel ring of sorts stuffed into additional kevlar layers, it provides protection to the forehead from AK/SLR rounds. The western products are designed to provide 9mm and Arty fragments protection and cannot protect against larger assault rifle rounds. Where it lacks is poor overhead protection, which has been remedied as newer patkas carry some kind of a laminate cover over the steel ring. These things weigh an easy 2 Kgs or thereabouts.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 21 Jan 2015 13:57

Thanks Jamwal and Vaibhav, for the details and explanation.

I haven't had the chance to run into any of our troops wearing the Patka or otherwise get a chance to see it up close, so I am glad to get the details.

My understanding is that most helmets weigh in between 1.0 to 2.0 Kg with size being the deciding factor. So Clearly Patka is on the heavier side.
The bit about overhead protection is disappointing but I am glad that there are improvements being made to it. And I am very impressed that it can stop AK rounds, I had assumed that it would only provide the standard sidearm and shrapnel protection like other helmets.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 21 Jan 2015 14:24

In addition to that the Patka is easier to 'fit' on different sized heads (given our demographics). It does provide protection from Shrapnel. AFAIK The top is a kevlar composite sandwich which makes it flexible however can stop medium size shrapnel and slash attack. The patka also makes it easier to increase/decrease the protection level (removing/adding armour/kevlar plate) based on threat perception making it a very effective peacetime headgear as well. Attachments can be easily added by using velcro/tag button. Most of this is gleaned from my discussions with multiple serving and ex army friends.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jan 2015 14:55

patka seems to be an example of a desi innovation.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jan 2015 15:12

patka seems to be an example of a desi innovation.

Agreed. If it is effective and improves mobility and the design works for the troops specially in COIN by all means keep it. But its been around long enough that it can be modernized for the current times. At the very least provisions to attach optics should be included.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 Jan 2015 17:35

IIRC it is Midhani's steel, that forms the ring or some such. Patka is a great solution for mandatory religious headgear situation of Sikhs. The biggest problem of patka is not ballistic protection, but usability. Modern helmets "float" half an inch above the head, using a combo of webbing and lugs to hold it tightly in place. So there are large air channels, going in from the rim and wicking is easy, because the lugs are usually made of form. But for patka, due to its snug-fit design, there are no air-channels for air-circulation around scalp and no wicking layer for sweat absorption. One sees the jawans improvising bandanas as a solution to the wicking problem

As vaibhav.n points out, gives excellent protection in COIN, against heavier rounds. The patka is a great innovation

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Jan 2015 20:19

Aditya G wrote:Garuds have been deployed in operation triveni (naxal ops) and in congo un ops.

Some more details on Op Triveni. Apparently one commando was recently wounded when his Mi-17 was fired upon:

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... rty/868988

...

Officials said the Indian Air Force (IAF) chopper, which flew an evacuation sortie soon after the 3.30 PM incident, was also hit by bullets fired by Maoists.

"A total of seven security personnel have been injured. All have bullet injuries. The injured include six CRPF personnel and one IAF commando," a senior officer deployed in the anti-Naxal operations grid said.

When the five injured in the gunbattle were being carried to the IAF chopper, the Naxals opened fired at it. An IAF guard and a CRPF jawan accompanying his colleagues were hit by bullets.

...

"The rebels also opened fire on the Air Force chopper MI-17 when it was ascending from an undisclosed location in dense forests of Chintagufa to ferry the injured CRPF to Jagdalpur this evening," Additional Director General of Police (anti-Naxal operations) R K Vij said.

Flight gunner Sergeant M K Tiwari sustained bullet injuries on his leg in the incident, he added.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Jan 2015 22:52

Am curious. Does the Army or DRDO systematically study COIN casualties/injuries & classify them which can help drive design decisions for protection? Because we hear about BPJ shortage, how the imported BPJ sizes don't fit our body type, areas of the body exposed like the sides etc

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 22 Jan 2015 00:00

^^

That happens because we are cheap and will always buy only one/two sizes which fits all. It eases up on inventory management for the Ordinance boys.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Jan 2015 08:06

Aditya G wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Garuds have been deployed in operation triveni (naxal ops) and in congo un ops.
Some more details on Op Triveni. Apparently one commando was recently wounded when his Mi-17 was fired upon:

http://www.outlookindia.com/news/articl ... rty/868988

...

Officials said the Indian Air Force (IAF) chopper, which flew an evacuation sortie soon after the 3.30 PM incident, was also hit by bullets fired by Maoists.

"A total of seven security personnel have been injured. All have bullet injuries. The injured include six CRPF personnel and one IAF commando," a senior officer deployed in the anti-Naxal operations grid said.

When the five injured in the gunbattle were being carried to the IAF chopper, the Naxals opened fired at it. An IAF guard and a CRPF jawan accompanying his colleagues were hit by bullets.

...

"The rebels also opened fire on the Air Force chopper MI-17 when it was ascending from an undisclosed location in dense forests of Chintagufa to ferry the injured CRPF to Jagdalpur this evening," Additional Director General of Police (anti-Naxal operations) R K Vij said.

Flight gunner Sergeant M K Tiwari sustained bullet injuries on his leg in the incident, he added.

Flight Gunner seems to have been injured. The flight gunner is neither a guard nor a Garud. He is the load master and a part of the Mi 17 crew component.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2015 14:56

the Garuds by definition seem to be airbase & missile regiment security, CSAR and sabotage oriented. ie direct action & egress and not trained or equipped for long-loiter ops. I dont think they train for civilian HRT the way nsg does as that is outside the scope.
the marcos and army sf units have a much more diverse range of missions.
the nsg has a specialized mission and again do not train for extended unsupported ops deep in the field as mostly they expect urban CT/HRT fights.

in areas with no nsg hubs where the army sf is supposed to cover, perhaps they train in nsg style for HRT/CT also - bangalore & hyd eg.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 22 Jan 2015 15:00

^^^ I would think Garud's Offensive Capability lies in Combat Controllers and SEAD (as demonstrated at Red Flag) and Defensive Capability is High Value Installation Security and CSAR. - They should NOT be tasked with anything else. THey should work imbedded with MARCOS / ARMY SF teams to provide the Offensive capability and stand alone for the Defensive ones.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 22 Jan 2015 15:35

I think they are suitably trained to carry out both by themselves. It would not be prudent to expect the IA/IN to provide muscle for all the heavy lifting. The IAF provides Corps level Tac Centres for CAS, but what we also solely require are JTAC style units to handle higher tempo ops in specific sectors.

Advanced CQB Training is very integral to IA SF units. They are called out for the same multiple times during the course of their deployment and would have most man-hours for the same. What do would not train for are specialized skill-sets ex: Counter-Hijack, Multiple Target Intervention. Some skills are in fact opposite the NSG trains for Counter IED, the SF runs courses on Demolitions and Sabotage.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 22 Jan 2015 16:23

Considering the High Overlap of Skills between Units its high time an effective Joint Command Structure is implemented. There is way too much wastage happening here. In terms of Kit / Training / Deployment the $$ can be put to way better use when 'wastage' is taken care off.

Honestly I tend to like how the Canadians and Americans operate with their Joint Task Force structures where each task force is given Mission Specific Resources from Across Soccom working together. The Concept of territoriality disappears, money allocation is done better across units and training is more standardized across units. In India where MARCOS and Garud do not come from line infantry background they have ALOT to learn from Army SF.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2015 23:19

^ Quoting one of my own posts from earlier:

Aditya G wrote:Excellent documentary on Garud Cdo Force. Even to layperson's eyes .... the progress is noticeable. It is also a large force with ~1000 members rivalling the MARCOS

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-i ... ory/257589

Their mission set is now confirmed to include:

* Combat Search and Rescue (like USAF Pararescue)
* Laser Designation
* Force Protection (like RAF Regiment)
* Counter Terrorism
* IIRC Rocky & Mayur docu indicated even Hostage Rescue and Counter Hijack roles.

They have settled on a 4 man team concept vs 6 man team in IA SF.

Garuds have tremendous potential thanks to their mobility. They are co-located with 77 sqn at Hindan which potentially allows for lower response time than even the NSG.

Aside from the officially acknowledged roles, I would like them to be designated as a emergency response team for "broken arrow" type situations. A desi NEST.

Jehadis have had much success in attacking military installations in Pak. IMHO it is a matter of time they try it in India (again). Garuds should see action then. In meantime, Op triveni is a great opportunity for them, as they are the only force from the services.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Jan 2015 12:13

Yenn Ess Jee at Rajghat.
]

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Jan 2015 12:23

^^^ Very TFTA Onlee

Wish we have some pics of the US and Indian forces side by side like the one in last POTUS visit of a erect MARCOs standing next to a bored Secret Service guy

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Jan 2015 13:36

Any id on the guns please.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2015 13:39

SIG SG 551

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jan 2015 15:21

the SPG seem to use the P90 and F2000 weapons

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jan 2015 15:23

those NSG who have fitted bipods for watch duty seem to have fitted a reflex sight kind of thing atop the weapon.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2015 16:53

Thakur_B wrote:Yenn Ess Jee at Rajghat.
]

Still short of helmets. Two guys are wearing the old German helmets imported in the 80's.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jan 2015 17:40

well helmets aside, their rest of kit does not look too different from the uber polizei GSG9 now
http://sek-gsg9-ksk.weebly.com/uploads/ ... 6_orig.jpg
http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-170 ... 9-hjmg.jpg

the only thing missing is the ballistic face shields that mean life n death in confined fighting and against grenades...the GIGN is also noteable for using these effectively.

I have not yet seen a NSG hit team wearing those shields yet...perhaps its a liability in a mobile battle like Taj hotel but could be useful in smaller spaces like the Chabad house or inside a airplane.

one thing I learnt is during paris attacks is the GIGN has reformed into a delta force type military uber unit now and the task of domestic CT is mostly left to some other units called RAID/BRI and it was this unit that lined up outside the bakery and unleashed that HAILSTORM of gunfire with one guy dodging inside the bakery also for some reason.
GIGN did shut down the other situation after miles of police manhunt through the forest.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2015 17:57

singha apparently 2 french units took part. they have their own overcomplex structure of which units handle what but both did well.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Jan 2015 19:15

well helmets aside, their rest of kit does not look too different from the uber polizei GSG9 now

If you look closely the NSG Troopers with the older helmets have the NSG tabs on their shoulders. The others dont. IMO even the Chest Rig seems a bit older. Maybe the old helmets are still with the SRG while rest are SAG?

And still have a personal (fanboy induced ofcourse) Gripe about the Shoulder holsters. (i know has been discussed here before) but i still believe an urban CT/HRT unit needs to have thigh holsters for quicker transitions between Long guns and Side arms in close quarters. Too much gear in the way to reach for the chest rigged gun fast enough.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 26 Jan 2015 19:19

Karan M wrote:singha apparently 2 french units took part. they have their own overcomplex structure of which units handle what but both did well.

Yes, the structure is quite complex. This blog tries to explain all the units that took part in the recent French crisis.
Link

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2015 21:04

If you look closely the NSG Troopers with the older helmets have the NSG tabs on their shoulders. The others dont. IMO even the Chest Rig seems a bit older. Maybe the old helmets are still with the SRG while rest are SAG?

We should overprovision and looks like we are being SDRE again.
We haggle around for $20 Bn deals whereas even $200Mn could kit out most of our SF units to top of the line gear.

Cant make out radios but guess they are there. A plus from 2008 days.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jan 2015 23:14

Karan M wrote:singha apparently 2 french units took part. they have their own overcomplex structure of which units handle what but both did well.

Actually, it is pretty simple if you read the blog link posted above.

GIGN is part of what can be termed as Military Police; and MP here were historically meant to tackle situation above the threshold of police but short of calling in the Army. It is something like our CRPF but with more active involvement in the state affairs. So, French created a SF for CT/HRT Ops from this force. And the Army has its own special force unit like other armies.

And given the background of GIGN, they are more tightly integrated with their armed forces as well. And train on all aspects like HAHO/HALO.

The other units mentioned in the blog are from national police force. While GIGN is centralized, the others are spread in smaller teams across all regions of France. Something like SWAT support for police action(s). But as their action footage showed, they're trained to a higher level than your SWAT in US and are not only about special weapons and actions but active policing to keep tab on high value threats like organized crime, narcotics and now, terrorists. French can put together a team of 20-30 such personnel in their regions to handle such contingency. And GIGN can either come in later or handle more pressing matter.

We've tried to do this through NSG hubs; it would always have been better if 100-120 member team from local police would've been trained and detailed for such tasks. Even with 50% of NSG training.

srin · Post by **srin** » 26 Jan 2015 23:23

rohitvats wrote:
We've tried to do this through NSG hubs; it would always have been better if 100-120 member team from local police would've been trained and detailed for such tasks. Even with 50% of NSG training.

Lethal weapons with local police under State Govt control ? Given the kind of CMs we've got in general, I shudder at the very thought.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 26 Jan 2015 23:29

^^^^
What's your point ?? elaborate

rohitvats wrote: We've tried to do this through NSG hubs; it would always have been better if 100-120 member team from local police would've been trained and detailed for such tasks. Even with 50% of NSG training.

That's my point too , Local police should be trained and armed and motivated , increasing NSG presence is a reaction ( to mumbai attack ) but not the solution. Local police have better understanding of their locality and have better intel which will be helpful in covertly and overtly, neutralizing the threat.