Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 22 Feb 2012 07:12

Shameek wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:^^IDF used to have a webpage which described the incident in detail - cant find it any more.
I found a of news article. Don't know how accurate it is.
The Independent

No this is not the one. The one I was referring to had a lot of details including names of unit members, eye witness accounts of the raid and the aftermath.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Feb 2012 07:50

This is from the other side

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/Book-Rev ... nst-Israel

He mentions the place, the Amal characters who provide the outer ring

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Mar 2012 12:29

US counter terror special forces stationed in India

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 02 Mar 2012 14:09

^^ i didnt understand.... stationed means.. they do have the authority to engage any hostile situation..... and where will be they stationed

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Mar 2012 14:43

I believe they might have authority to engage on the request of Indian Govt.
In any major terrorist attact, we may use their service to supplement the NSG. Though this is not a likely political possibility I see no other use.
We don't need stationed troops just for training though.

Or they can part of a small team located in the Embassies or their state.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Mar 2012 14:51

conventionally platoons of USMC are based in each consulate for inner security (outer perimeter is the local police). maybe the SF units of USMC or some such have embedded some of their own with the regular USMC detail.

under diplomatic bag rules they are allowed to import without question any form of arms necessary to defend their consulate...that means all small arms for sure, perhaps the line is drawn on things like mortars and 105mm howitzers though

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Mar 2012 15:08

I don't think so. UBGL and LAW may also be allowed to take care of vehicle based attacks. What I am thinking on is about the presence of MANPADS in Embassies. Post 9/11 that is a definite possibility. And I think in some cases even this should/could be tolerated.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Mar 2012 15:27

koti wrote:I believe they might have authority to engage on the request of Indian Govt.
In any major terrorist attact, we may use their service to supplement the NSG. Though this is not a likely political possibility I see no other use.
We don't need stationed troops just for training though.

Or they can part of a small team located in the Embassies or their state.

i seriously doubt we would ask US forces to participate in an anti-terror operation, and nor would they participate without their infrastructure in place. In the case of India it is likely to be liaison officers, perhaps staff officer level trainers/advisors and on rotation SF units for joint training.

As Singha says, it is always possible that small units are present within the embassy/consulate for additional counter terror security, or maybe even a SIGINT capability

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Mar 2012 15:53

Deleted.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Mar 2012 15:54

Lalmohan wrote: In the case of India it is likely to be liaison officers, perhaps staff officer level trainers/advisors and on rotation SF units for joint training.

That wouldn't qualify the comment "US Special Forces stationed in India".
It literally means, A Unit(Platoon IMO),equipped and ready for action with clear objectives.

Lalmohan wrote:As Singha says, it is always possible that small units are present within the embassy/consulate for additional counter terror security, or maybe even a SIGINT capability

I said that first...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Mar 2012 16:33

dont forget that its DDM reporting

(and apols for misquoting)

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Mar 2012 18:35

I haven't heard about foreign SFs operating from India except for the Harkat-ul-Ansar kidnapping from the early 1990s. That was an exceptional case, but from the US briefing it appears that nowadays it is a routine basing. GoI must clarify

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Mar 2012 23:30

"Special Response Force" in training - analogue to America's NEST. We also need to raise one such unit under SFC with IAF Garud force a good candidate to do the role.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Mar 2012 23:32

^^They are using paintball guns.

mayankdr · Post by **mayankdr** » 03 Mar 2012 02:03

^^Well I think This pictures are from Pak Army. Look at the third Pic. Clearly one can see Pak Flag on their shoulder.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 03 Mar 2012 02:25

I am sure a few platoons of Delta, USMC Force Recon, Rangers, Green Berets and Seal Team Six are stationed in India. We are and constantly have been interacting with SF units from the US in order to get ready snatch and grab Puki nukes if and when things go south in puki land.

I am sure Joint Spec Op units and commands have already been drawn up with elite members from both sides.

I am also absolutely convinced that the OBL raid was launched from India. A'bad is just 60 km off LOC. A US nuke sub was stationed off goa a week or two before the raid, all US nuke subs carry Seal teams, C-17s had landed in India at the same time as well enough to transport the stealthy helos. The entire op took 45 mins, which accounts for 30 flight time in total and 15min action on the ground. Jammers on and flying low, they would have gone all the way from India to A'bad in minutes.

Furthermore, RAW informing CIA about the presence of a very big fish outside of Islamabad in 2007 only allowed CIA to focus back on the house. It's obvious our intel and ground support was there. Raw happens to be the final expert in Pak intel. No other agency possess the kind of intel RAW does about PAk.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Mar 2012 02:29

^^^ am glad that is all cleared up.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2012 03:12

mayankdr wrote:^^Well I think This pictures are from Pak Army. Look at the third Pic. Clearly one can see Pak Flag on their shoulder.

I know. The pics are from the ISPR website.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2012 09:41

"Special Response Force" in training - analogue to America's NEST. We also need to raise one such unit under SFC with IAF Garud force a good candidate to do the role.

And how could you say that such a unit might already not be there ( msaybe under the SFF or the SG)?

Regarding the US SF comment and thought that it might be DDM:
"No U.S. special forces in India"

That left the question open whether a component of Pentagon's special forces, who conduct operations of hazardous nature such as snatches, sabotage behind enemy lines or liquidation, were secretly stationed in the embassy or one of the consulates – as they do in neighbouring Pakistan and Afghanistan – to track, kill or assist in killing militants. Officials when asked were not willing to hazard a guess on that.

Testimonies before the U.S. Congressional panels, as is the case with depositions before Standing Committees of Parliament here, are sacrosanct and an official may lie at the peril of his job and liberty. Admiral Willard heads the Pacom whose area of “responsibility'' begins from the eastern edge of Asia and end on India's western borders.

Therefore the Admiral would be in the know of all interactions with the Indian military and is unlikely to mix up short term presence of his troops for joint exercises with deployments. He said the special forces were deployed here to help in the maritime domain — that is, to counter threats such as sneak attacks from the sea. He went on to add that other U.S. government agencies were also operating in India.

Definitely it is more than a case of misquoting.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2012 11:00

btw there is something called the DSS (diplomatic security service) also whose personnel are based in US consulates. apart from being a 'internal affairs' kind of job to keep tabs on the american staff they also vet the background of any local employees in the consulates and other places like USEFI probably. word on the street was this vetting job was very detailed and people could get fired for minor things like a visit to binori madrassa or just the usual fiery friday sermon somewhere.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Mar 2012 13:32

Reg Paintball guns - they are using those for practice.

sum wrote:
"Special Response Force" in training - analogue to America's NEST. We also need to raise one such unit under SFC with IAF Garud force a good candidate to do the role.
And how could you say that such a unit might already not be there ( msaybe under the SFF or the SG)?

There is no published information on any such unit. I hope there is one. GoI should publish the minimum details so that the populace at large is aware of it and can be rest assured.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2012 21:21

^^ True but even the mention of SG or SFF gets many in BRF itself into a tizzy. So expecting any info from GoI is just wet dream onlee..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 10:38

I was thinking about a question and scenario last night.

1. take a populous tourist friendly area like karol bagh and nai dilli railway stn area..where lakhs of travellers come and go every day incl 1000s of foreigners. nobody cares who you are so long as you can pay the tab.

2. a hit team of 50 mujahids come together from all over india by train and plane and gather at a couple of hotels in the area in small grounds of 2s and 3s. some are pak trained, some are ex-SSG come in via nepal->eastern UP, some are trained with camps in india itself like those periodically reported in the south. all are prepared to die.

3. next couple of days they lie low and meet the local handlers who will provide the transport on D-night. they visit the target area as tourists and lay citizens by city bus to familiarize themselves.

4. on D-night after a good meal and prayers, tourist Tempos come to take them away from the hotel for a pkged trip to Jaipur, ofcourse enroute they stop at a warehouse abutting the delhi ridge's northern section to pickup a consignment of heavy explosive charges and LAW weapons (RPGs mostly). they proceed around 10pm to target area which is the diplomatic area of chanyakapuri.

5. alighting from the vans in a timed synchonized manner at multiple points around the huge embassies of two important countries which lie close together, their LAW teams easily shred the Delhi police jeeps positioned around the area. the policemen have no defence against such heavy weapons. one jihadi wearing a backpack charge blasts the entrance door to one of the embassy, while one of the vans packed with heavier charges and driven by another jihadi rams and smashes the entrance to the other embassy.

6. dividing into teams of 24 each, they penetrate both embassies , take hostages, gun down people , start fires, lob grenades at neighbouring consulates, fire RPGs with incendiary charges in a ballistic arc to target those further away and one enterprising lad even climbs to the roof and fires a ATGM that scores a direct hit on a lutyens dilli bungalow after describing a 45' arc. the embassy security staff is overwhelmed and boxed into corners and separated...wherever they put up resistance the heavy charges and LAW weapons smash their positions. thick 4" BP glass doors are shattered by RPG rounds. ex-SSG command the teams and show their expertise in blasting past obstacles quickly...all skills well honed in joint exercises with SEAL teams.

7. in meantime, anticipating the nearest rush of police forces, jeep borne faithfuls explode two car bombs directly inside the premises of the two nearest police stations where the first phone calls led to a massing of police to form a convoy and reach the scene. another couple of jeeps go off in a show of force in CP and in chandni chowk...to divert police attention to possibility of more car bombs all over the place. 4 expendable faithfuls. someone from "lashkar" phones CNN that 15 more car bombs are placed all around delhi incl near places of worship.

in this situation the nearest NSG unit is 1 hr away at best in maneswar. there is no CT trained force in delhi cantt let us assume. delhi police ATS is clearly inadequate for the job. some SPG and NSG is there in lutyens delhi but to guard VIPs and the first report sends them into lockdown mode to guard current charges. the PM is flown by helicopter to safdarjung and evacuated to a secure location. so they cannot help. all roads in and out of chanyakapuri and lutyens delhi are closed by police, with a couple of army batallions providing backup and setting up checkposts.

so you think these foreign govts would give a full clearance for indian forces to enter and engage the terrorists on their sovereign territory (embassy premises) or demand that we just secure the outer perimeter while they fly in their own CT units (ETA best case could be 6 hrs from afghanistan, 9 hrs from germany) ? would they even co operate to pass on internal details of their embassies and put the GOI in touch with the remnants of their security detail fighting but trapped in pockets inside?

should the indian PMO overrule their objections and go in anyway in the interest of saving lives and curbing the atrocity?

what kind of strategy would you use and what kind of units and resources would you deploy? remember you are not dealing with a small B-team of serpents here, but 24 x 2, the elite, the best of class, the toppers of the batch specially handpicked for this mission to heavily embarass india and make it seem impotent...and those tempo TTs came stuffed to the gunwales with weapons...the consulates themselves have ample food and water to loot from.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Mar 2012 11:25

It's not possible to arrange such an operation without intelligence agencies getting a whiff of it.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 04 Mar 2012 11:29

^Before 26/11 happened everyone were thinking the same way, that such an operation was not possible "without intelligence agencies getting a whiff of it".

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2012 11:29

^^And yet Mumbai 26/11 happened and Parliament attacks in Delhi happened. The type of operation described can happen but in Dilli its much tougher than say Mumbai or Bangalore since the amount of surveillance and HUMINT done to protect our netas backsides has increased exponentially ever since while the rest of the country can go to hell.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 11:58

to make it more difficult for HUMINT to pickup traces let me introduce a slight amendment that the teams come together in the warehouse from 4 different places where they had come to delhi over the last couple of says
10 in kargol bagh via NDLS
10 in purani dilli via nizamuddin RS area
10 from meerut/ghaziabad side suburban area
5 were already renting in delhi as students near a leading univ & 5 pose as their family members came by bus from UP
10 arrive in delhi that evening from kanpur/lucknow side and do not stay anywhere, directly picked up in a tempo

none of them move in groups of >2 and make no cellphone calls. their pickup points and times are told in advance and they will passively get a SMS of harmless spam nature to alert them of any changes.

tempos are rented from a local tourist agency, their drivers are murdered once they reach the warehouse.

the warehouse is one of the 1000s of backyard industries in the region, dealing in metal scrap recycling and battery lead plate recovery...scruffy trucks and mechanics come and go all the time.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2012 12:08

^^When I was referring to intelligence, I meant re. stashing of such heavy weapons such as RPGs and explosives without getting detected at all.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 12:13

1000s of kg of dynamite and high power construction powder explosives are on the loose daily, due to lax monitoring and storage in the mining areas. journos testing this theory were able to procure gelatin sticks an hours ride out of mumbai after 26/11. the nepal border being quite porous and the gorakhpur-azamgarh belt being adjacent, I would imagine a good consignment could be brought in from nepal army/ex-maoist stock hidden under regular goods and stacked away for months in some grains warehouse without any incident.

all you need is a couple of trucks among the 50,000 that likely enter and transit via NCR daily.

and those checkgates at state borders are dens of corruption, you could likely smuggle in the Saturn-V if the road tax inspectors were paid off well.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 04 Mar 2012 12:22

Singha sir,

U really sent a shiver down my spine with your scenario

..as for the stashing part as mentioned by Raja Bose sir, its difficult but then if some one really plans its properly with patience and radical plans it just might be possible.. Hell, the way i see it, u seniors and BRF oldies should send these types of horrifying scenarios to our pandus/intalleegent services as a bolt of lighting in their pants just to get their noodles working overtime

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 04 Mar 2012 12:24

I dont think this is gone a happen.@singha ji@scenario.
because this type of attack may insure that our napak neighbors cleansed properly and divided in to parts by forces of different country under leaderships of India.

more likely target is as I seen daily is university area.(student agitation is one hell of mess later)
new market area in N.d. like laxmi nagar or Tilak nager Rajauri garden Nehru place is most likely target to limited aggression. no most of this security is tartar because of multiple entery exits point and terrorist can get away in easily.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 04 Mar 2012 12:25

Singha sir,

u posted a possible scenario of explosive movement just before i pressed the submit button..Bang on target!!

U just might have a great (and horrifying) idea for a potential terrorist plot/ scenario...request you to keep working on it...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 12:51

well if a parliament attack couldnt rouse india to fire a shot across the border, this is much easier - PMO will wash its hands off and leave it to the western powers, who will promptly pay TSP a couple billion $$ more to appease them.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Mar 2012 12:53

Singha wrote:2. a hit team of 50 mujahids come together from all over india by train and plane and gather at a couple of hotels in the area in small grounds of 2s and 3s. some are pak trained, some are ex-SSG come in via nepal->eastern UP, some are trained with camps in india itself like those periodically reported in the south. all are prepared to die.

The trouble is the bigger the team that's being inserted, the greater the chances are of a intelligence leak occurring. It takes just one slip (Indian intelligence agencies operate in Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka) and the bloodhounds will on the trail. The logistics for a platoon+ group are not insubstantial and there's no surefire way of determining whether your safehouse in Nepal isn't under surveillance or an individual in your local support staff hasn't been compromised.

so you think these foreign govts would give a full clearance for indian forces to enter and engage the terrorists on their sovereign territory (embassy premises) or demand that we just secure the outer perimeter while they fly in their own CT units (ETA best case could be 6 hrs from afghanistan, 9 hrs from germany) ? would they even co operate to pass on internal details of their embassies and put the GOI in touch with the remnants of their security detail fighting but trapped in pockets inside?

That's a no brainer, the force employed will always be the NSG. If foreign force elements can get there in time, they may be allowed to serve in an advisory capacity but no question of them being participating in the assault.

As far as the legality goes, while the wishes of the country in question are generally taken into account while formulating strategy (negotiations vs force vs other), the operations, whether it was on the Japanese embassy in Lima, or the Iranian embassy in London, are carried out by domestic forces. ,

Sovereign territory doesn't make any difference - foreign CT forces are welcome to do their thing as long as they're inserted via ballistic missile i.e. no passage through Indian sovereign territory.

should the indian PMO overrule their objections and go in anyway in the interest of saving lives and curbing the atrocity?
what kind of strategy would you use and what kind of units and resources would you deploy? remember you are not dealing with a small B-team of serpents here, but 24 x 2, the elite, the best of class, the toppers of the batch specially handpicked for this mission to heavily embarass india and make it seem impotent...and those tempo TTs came stuffed to the gunwales with weapons...the consulates themselves have ample food and water to loot from.

The forces, strategy and tactics employed will the remain the same. If the opposing force is highly trained, tough luck. Casualties are then unavoidable. Heavy armor, ballistic shields and overwhelming numbers advisable. Perhaps strike at night in blackout conditions - hopefully the opposition wouldn't be equipped with NVGs.

Two other options come to mind -

1. Wait them out (Op Black Thunder) and harass them with sniper fire. Might not feasible if hostages are present.
2. Try an unconventional approach like a gas attack. It didn't work during the Moscow theatre siege resulting in hostage deaths, but hopefully we have something up our sleeve. Also the attackers in later years were equipped with gas masks, but we may get lucky there.

Besides, I don't think the leadership (even the military) in Pakistan would be sanction stupidity of this magnitude. This time there'll be no fig leaf of 'non-state actors' to hide behind, and the last thing they need, given their current state of affairs, is the IA and IAF kicking down a undermanned eastern front and/or the Indian Navy imposing a blockade.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 12:57

even local robbers have NVG, blackberry and gas masks these days

. these guys will have the best eqpt money can buy.
about the ballistic shields, I have seen no pictorial evidence we use it...though I admit not having searched extensively for it.
about the naval and IA blockade, the pakis know nothing like that is going to happen...even setting fire to the US embassy here wont make khan lift its protective umbrella

instead Khan SD and media will blast us and blame us for letting it happen and demand that we appease the terrorists by handing over cashmere or atleast some high level tihar jail type terrorists if american hostages are being held

they already have kandahar deal to beat us up with.
--
there are many you can find on the web about illegal explosives. here is one.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ex ... sh_1599540

a huge cache of explosives including 5,000 detonators and 10 boxes of gelatine sticks was Sunday seized by the police from a house in Rewa.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Mar 2012 13:00

I had thought of somewhat similar attack when I was writing my scenario. But scaled it down to an old fashioned bombing. :-<
Sure, such an attack is not impossible, but flawless execution by foreign terrorists inside Indian capital is really difficult. You need to have a lot of local support and that's a major weak weakness. Intelligence agencies, police etc aren't that inefficient after all. It is easy to hide and transport guns, but not heavy weapons like RPGs, LAW on such a scale. Sure, you can procure and use commercial explosives, but even that is another weakness in plan. How're you going to use them, except car bombing, gate crashing etc ?

Mumbai attack was completely different, as the terrorists came by the sea with all their weapons and needed minimum local support. Attack on Parliament was similar but number of terrorists was quite low. A better template for an attack was explained by Mukul Deva in his book, Lashkar. But that too was limited to bombings, not such targeted attacks.
As far as Indian retaliation is concerned, Kasab and Afzal Guru are still our state guests. Says a lot about Indian determination and will to respond.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Mar 2012 13:15

my 1st moves as a commander would be:

1. impose a TV news blackout on the topic - chase away and lock up the TV news vans and keep all their editors and owners in a govt guest house as a guarantee of good behaviour for the duration. verbal assurances cannot be trusted, these people need to be in a guest house.

2. bring in some combat bulldozers or tanks from the cantonment and using the dozers and demolitions teams , break open the consulate walls at multiple places along perimeter before backing away...this will permit both a certain number of trapped people to escape and increase the headache of the terrorists in having to seal off multiple entry points...splitting them into 2s and 3s.

3. launch intensive surveillance from UAVs and neighouring buildings of the place to gauge force strength and placement. if Khan really has things that can see through walls from a UAV, it would be time to get that Global hawk to orbit over delhi. bring in NTRO vans to sniff for any cellphone or satellite calls. if its deemed necessary activite a army mobile jamming unit to block satphones and deactivate all cellphone towers in range to cut them off.

4. evacuate all other consulates and shut down electric grid and generators to leave only the attacked consulates as islands of light until their backup
generators run.

5. if any jihadis are spotted on rooftops doing the observer thing, take them out using denel NTW rifles. make the roofs a no-go area.

6. prepare for a helicopter borne attack as the main prong, while diversionary attacks behind IFVs and MPVs on each breach in the wall keep a number of attackers engaged. get the detailed maps of consulates asap from concerned govts. reject their offers of help and sending CT teams.

7. launch the attack without delay in negotiations, first a couple of WSI Dhruvs would nose in and clear the roof, if the snipers missed anything, next 1 Mi17V each would come to the roof and deploy 2 ropes each, permitting 1 platoon of NSG to be deposited on the roof in a few mins. in parallel diversionary attacks and snipers would make a strong push to threaten a breakin if the attackers focus on the roof. this is a very dicey step as a single RPG could crash the Mi17....sniper teams would need to be very carefully sited and their would inevitable be blind spots not viewable from outside, like behind interior walls and interior gardens .... for this I propose that the Dhruvs or fast passing Mi17v drop a massive cluster of smoke+mace bombs onto the grounds to blind and slow down anyone lurking in the woodwork.

8. work from the roof down, using explosives to blast open any doors and sending back rescued hostages to the roof. at some point the terrorists defending the breaches will be taken out from the rear or they will have turn 180' and let ingress teams slip into the gardens

9. screw the human (terrorist only) rights lobby and presenting 'proof' of paki involvement, kill every terrorist you come across. or beat the living crap out of them on the spot to make them reveal any booby traps.

even if the Mi17v dont get hit and full rescue platoons make it the roofs with all intact, my prediction is quite a bloody operation on the part of hostages and rescue team in the best case.

** I was thinking of using the wooden gliders that landed on the roof of eben emael but such is not possible because
1. we dont have such troop carrying gliders
2. need meticulous practice
3. there is no convenient flat huge roof to land on
it would permit a more stealthy approach than the noisy Mi17V that has to hover for a few mins to unload the platoon

** HALO jump from IL76 I dont think we can have 40 people neatly land on the roof at almost the same time without chutes getting tangled up and people getting killed..I dont think even 5 people could manage that esp at night.

** there aint no sewers to use and any would be blocked by consulates for security

what we likely need is a few special Mi17V with a "boat shaped attachment" below the hull that guards the lower half of fuselage from HMG/RPG blasts from below and the side. the boat would have 2 holes for the people roping down to slip through. even if not usually attached the Mi17 used by NSG have to get the brackets and bolts in place to attach on short notice. would detonate the RPG at some distance below the heli...using concept of spaced armour

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Mar 2012 13:30

Singha wrote:about the naval and IA blockade, the pakis know nothing like that is going to happen...even setting fire to the US embassy here wont make khan lift its protective umbrella instead Khan SD and media will blast us and blame us for letting it happen and demand that we appease the terrorists by handing over cashmere or atleast some high level tihar jail type terrorists if american hostages are being held

You don't always need to physically attack to force the point. A troop buildup and a near blockade in 1999 for example was enough to nearly crash the Karachi stock exchange. Just tough talk without any visible military action from India after the Mumbai attacks was enough to rattle Pres. Zardari into having a comical conversation on an unsecure line with an individual pretending to be Pranab Mukherjee. Outgoing shipping from Karachi can be disrupted with prolonged 'anti-terrorist' VBSS operations without crossing into a declaration of war. The Pakistani Army can be forced to redeploy vitally needed forces from their western front. The PAF will forced to consume expensive spares maintaining wartime readiness. Insurance rates and investments, while already low, will take a massive new hit.

Also, water in dams flowing towards Pakistan, can be held or released in quantities small enough not to do any real damage but enough to make a point. In subsequent years Pakistani govt. will probably come under pressure to raise the defence budget - expenditure that it can afford a lot less than India.

Trouble with actually giving the green light for a military strike as opposed to upping the threat is that defining clear objectives for the military are near impossible. In every war we've fought so far the military has had its job cut out - drive out intruders from J&K, counter Op Gib & Op GS, liberate EP. In the current scenario you're likely to have escalating tit-for-tat strikes with no defined limitations, that can simply spiral out of control.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2012 13:31

Typically rooftops are always sanitized using snipers. This was done during Nariman House operation too.

The most important thing is to keep barking mutt type of reporters away and have a total media blackout - breaking news be damned

. During 26/11, the Oberoi/Trident op NSG commander kept the media away hence we didn't see anything stupid happen there unlike the Taj/Nariman House. In case of Nariman House, I put the blame for the death of NSG's Gajender Singh squarely on the media who idiotically showed live footage of the NSG landing on the roof. Even while watching it live I could not help but wonder what happens if the terrorists are also watching it on TV. As a result of such imbeciles in our media, the terrorists were vectored by their Paki controllers onto the NSG guys coming down and managed to hurl a grenade at them killing the 1st commando.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Mar 2012 13:35

Trouble with using heavy military action (IFVs and bulldozers as opposed to fast and loud/silent CT teams) arises if hostages are present. The success of a CT operations is generally measured by the number of casualties among hostages and overt action in this case may lead to avoidable deaths.