Bharat Rakshak

Interesting tit-bit in the Hindu:
Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes

hnair saar, jokes apart, IMO, people who are serious about understanding the concept of Special Forces, what it takes to evolve true blue Spec Ops capability and what kind of objectives it can fulfill, should read the book I quoted. The book also highlights the confusion and lack of vision in Indian context about what SF are, what are they supposed to do, what kind of objectives should they fulfill, how can the nation nurture and deploy them as strategic assets etc.

What I understood is this - SF does not simply mean having men who can withstand a grueling (some say even inhuman) 6-month probation and be willing to put their lives in harms way.

It means having clear political objective and mandate behind having Special Forces with political class clearly understanding that SF are "STRATEGIC ASSETS". For effective employment and achieving the maximum bang for the buck, these forces need national level support from Intelligence agencies and cross-service support. The OBL raid is prime example of such strategic objective being met by a bunch of highly trained men - but who required the support of entire US nation. Lt. General Nanavatty clearly says that cross border raids into POK for achieving objectives in CI Ops is not being SF in true sense - he terms them as theater level expertise. He also adds that our Para(SF) Commanders/Officers put themselves in harms way by undertaking true-blue SF operations with-out political objectives.

In the above sense, the western concept and deployment philosophy is crystal clear. The Delta Force+ST6 combine in US, SAS+SRG in UK and Sayeret Matkal+S13 in Israel clearly embody this philosophy of strategic assets used to achieve strategic objectives - the veritable spear tip.

^^I think you meant SAS+SBS. I think in India, the term "Commando" is confused with SF and both are inter-mixed, misused and misappropriated a lot. Currently India has units trained to SF level but which are employed mainly as elite infantry.

I was actually referring to their new Special Recconaissance Regiment....yes, should have included the SBS on lines of ST6 and S13.

Coming to Commando versus SF designation, in Indian case, a study was done to assess the capabilities of Indian SF assets and requirement given our environment. The thinking is that the word Commando denotes "direct-action" type of capabilities (like our Ghatak) while being called SF means a very versatile force capable of operating across spectrum of conflicts (LIC-peace time covert ops-full scale war) with dedicated politico-military directives and objectives.

This study identified that number of SF battalions required is 12 and that we need to migrate to SF level capability - the equipment profile plus other associated infrastructure. The contributors to the book I quoted rue the fact that while we were quick to adopt the SF nomenclature, every other aspect of recommendation remains unimplemented.

Exactly my point. I don't think we can get true SF capability till GoI starts seeing itself as a entity which can project power beyond our immediate borders and project them onto areas where our immediate interests may not be at stake, i.e. they are more forward looking in terms of protecting India's interests. After all, like you stated in the end SF capability is a lot more than some fancy weapons & black nomex suits. For that to happen, we need to first get rid of pseudo-Gandhi giri and Nehru style BS gentle big brother posturing.

Lies! INC are weak onlee! Zaid Hamid told me this is hundred perzent kaafir propagandaa

^^^INC does not decide the actions of men on border.

What would the communication chain be like in such a situation? If an attack took place on Indian post and the decision to use SF for a raid on Paki post?

Thanks

Please bear with me, I need to know this.

If a soldier is recruited as a simple soldier (not an IMA officer or a JCO), what can he do to get into Ghatak Platoons ? AFAIK, these guys have special training on par with commandos. A lot of CI operations in J&K are done by these platoons affiliated to different battalions of RR.

Shyamd, AFAIK there is a very well defined SOP for such LOC firings - and IA is generally much restrained. For example, one joke which Pakistanis use to tease Indians on LOC is that while they can do whatever they want, in case of Indian Army, the orders need to come from Delhi. Having said that, the use of heavy weapons is not done w/o clearance from sector commander or even higher authorities. But things are not always black and white. Commanding officers or Company Commanders may take decision as per the situation. As for use of SF - SF being a centrally controlled asset(s), the deployment and use cannot come w/o at least the Corps HQ - unless they have been seconded to Divisions on LOC.

jamwal, the Ghatak Platoon is integral to each Infantry Battalion. It invariably consists of most fit men of the Battalion and those who would have undergone the Commando Course in Belgaum (but not necessarily all of them). So, if a jawan joins a paltan, he can volunteer for the Ghatak Platoon of his paltan - and if he is found physically fit, he will be retained. This platoon is led by a young subaltern. One more thing - apart from Para(SF), there is no other Special Force or Commando element in the IA - though, the capability of Scouts Battalions like Ladakh Scouts/Dogra Scouts borders on SF with specialized application in mountain warfare. And Para(SF) training is a different ball game all together.

What is the small gun the IA SF captain is having at ~3:00 in the video?

Micro-Uzi?

^^Looks like a Micro Uzi but hard to be 500% sure since the mag is hidden by the white banner. But it is plausible since Para SF have been using Micro Uzi for quite some time.

I'd wager it was a MSMC carbine. Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

NSG to pull out 900 commandos from VIP security for counterterror operations trainingSo it means personnel with non-Army background will also be a part of the SAG henceforth? Why couldn't they just raise another battalion from the Army instead of taking a short cut?

This is an excellent development. I have been hoping for this for a long time indeed.



Nope...thats Micro Uzi for sure.

Finally, some real Indians will be protected from jihadists

^^
Apart from that, hopefully a day will come when IA soldiers will not be required to be deputed to NSG.

^^^

IMO, it's a good training & knowlege sharing opportunity for IA jawans who do a short stint with the NSG. When they return to their units, they pass on some of the knowledge to fellow jawans.

I agree. IA soldiers from non-SF units also serve in NSG and I am sure they get a lot of valuable training and experience which they otherwise would not get. Let's not get into a "us vs them" war Gaur ji

True. But with increase in NSG hubs, IMHO IA is being needed to send many more soldiers on deputation than it can afford without compromising its effectiveness in Operational areas. In the end, its not a situation which is healthy for either IA or NSG.

Boseji, you misunderstood me. Its not "us vs them" mentality. How could that be, when both CMPFs and IA are "us"? I am just of the personal opinion that it is in the best interest of the Nation if the CMPFs and state police police become capable enough to deal with internal CT operations without any help from IA. I believe both IA and CMPFs will greatly benefit if IA is not required for that role.

^^^Slight correction....we have total of 11 battalions under Parachute Regiment. And of these, 3 are the line Para Infantry Battalions. Rest are SF.

What's so great about the M4 compared to the INSAS version they made for the SF?

^^ is there any INSAS version as such apart from the prototype.....?

So now we have to import Nato 5.56*45 as our 5.56 *45 ammo won't work in these guns?

Tavor21 imo looks like a bulky piece of work, Uzis are fine for inhouse fighting and hiding under coats but lack range and weight. AK-anything is bulky and heavy.
the fine sweet spot for Para-SF is prolly the M4 / Steyr type weapon?

Would be nice to know which version, M-4 is such a loose term, HK416, BEAR Elite, Bushmaster, Reminton, Barrett, Colt all have M-4 based carbines. Not so sure if we are buying the original Colt M-4.

However, best versions are from HK, BEAR and Bushmaster perhaps. Whatever we buy, they certainly will have a lot of attachment options, Trijicon battery free Reflex and ACOG sights come to mind.

its in this wide range of ecosystem accessories that our OFB efforts come up short. like apple vs playbook.

I was given to understand the the INSAS's carbine variant had issues with noise, muzzle flash and recoil. The M4 on the other hand has been in production for nearly 20 years. Its a good balance of refinement and ruggedness while still being cost effective. Most importantly it can be heavily customized while an INSAS variant is long way from featuring something as basic as a silencer.


More curious is the Para-SF/Marcos acquisition of the TAR-21. Most special forces use a carbine as part of their standard kit and not a full barrel assault rifle. Even the employment of bullpup design is unusual. The British SAS/SBS use the Diemaco C8 instead of the standard SA80 while the Australian SAS use the M4 in lieu of the Steyr AUG. And even assuming that the SF had settled on the Tavor family, I'd imagine the obvious choice would have been the MTAR-21 with perhaps a small complement of GTAR-21s.

One of the reasons we are going for carbine for special forces is easy to use in Tight spaces, but then in J&K most of troops prefer the AK-47 for COIN close quarter combat due to its stoping power, wouldn't that apply to spec forces also.

maybe thats why TAR-21 was taken and not MTAR-21. our SF units see the most action in J&K forests not urban cqb areas which the police dominate.so the range of a proper rifle would be useful.

Interesting ... Thanks for the replies

Hey what's wrong with that...folks got to move on with their lives once they quit the force.
He is a highly decorated officer....who joined the Para SF very early,if I recollect it was in his 1st yr of service.....and spent the next 20 plus there

Cheers

Hope this isn't OT....

With the impending induction of the INS Arihant, a relatively-small, incredibly stealthy submarine that is particularly well-suited to litoral waters....... I am sure that part of the planning going forward from here would be the development and training and deployment of an IN version of "Navy Seals".

Has any of this made it into the press?
Any news/thoughts on this?

(If there have been prior posts in this thread on that topic, kindly post links or give time stamps.)

Thanks,

RK

Well, isnt that what the MARCOS is?

I think he meant more like training of MARCOS to deploy from subs.

^^ I thought MARCOs also does that from existing subs too?

From Wiki:

See only VVIPs need be protected by this special weapon...
In case of India its not assault but defensive weapon, while US troops kill the terrorist we protect our VVIPs

Second, we have to import again crores of rupees.... paisa bano is the motto...
even the cartridge and other paraphernalia, we dont even reverse engineer like PRC....
If I am not wrong even AK-47/56 bullets are imported but not made in India ( last time Bulgaria/Romania got the order )