Siachen News & Discussion

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Jagan
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Jagan »

Fangs of Ice was published in 1991, a mere two or three years after the Bana Post battle. I always believe that any book published close to an event takes liberties and exaggerations will be the norm.

It makes an interesting comparision with another book published in the early 90s - History of the JAK LI - the Regimental History. the JAKLI history is a gem - gives you all the details in an un-emotional, crisp, point by point style of narration without the need for pomp or self glory. but then all regimental histories are like that. fangs of ice doesn't purport to be one so it can be excused.

for the record,

8 JAK LI lost five soldiers on 26/27 June 87 for the Battle of Bana post. A month earlier, 2/Lt Rajiv Pandey and five of his patrol members died when they went on a recce mission to the post. Their bodies lay in the snow for 28 days and were recovered only after the bana post was taken.

During their whole tour which involved three to four battles, they lost 43 soldiers in all.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Nayak »

ISPR Documentary - Life of a Siachen Soldier Part 1 (Pakistan Army)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EnIF_dpW80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCP88qmypaU
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

They say when sun shines brightly on Siachen in the last days of June and the upper layer of snow gets softened, a loud roar of Allah-o-Akbar resounds in the stupendous stillness of Bilafond region sending many an avalanche cracking down the slopes and the legend of the lone defenders of Quaid OP persists.

:roll: reminds me of a dharmendra movie wherein he was a prince in some desert kingdom. such was his
valour, even the sand dunes sang "sultan sultan" as he rode by.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gagan »

The attack to control the Quaid post where Captain Bana Singh got the PVC, was named operation Rajiv after 2/Lt Rajiv Pandey.

Bana singh and his team climed a virtual wall of ice in near darkness in a snowstorm to capture that post. It is indeed amazing when you see that place on google earth.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Jagan »

Singha wrote:They say when sun shines brightly on Siachen in the last days of June and the upper layer of snow gets softened, a loud roar of Allah-o-Akbar resounds in the stupendous stillness of Bilafond region sending many an avalanche cracking down the slopes and the legend of the lone defenders of Quaid OP persists.

:roll: reminds me of a dharmendra movie wherein he was a prince in some desert kingdom. such was his
valour, even the sand dunes sang "sultan sultan" as he rode by.


Off topic but :D
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

They say when sun shines brightly on Siachen in the last days of June and the upper layer of snow gets softened, a loud roar of Allah-o-Akbar resounds in the stupendous stillness of Bilafond region sending many an avalanche cracking down the slopes and the legend of the lone defenders of Quaid OP persists.
Because when there is differential thawing of the layers, there comes the avalanches. Could it be that they are mistaking the roar of avalanches as their holy cry?

In the rarefied atmosphere, people do hallucinate. Normal phenomenon in those areas.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Paul »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Longstaff

Funny how we missed out on a basic primer for this thread, how the siachen glacier came to be named as such.

May be worthwhile to follow on this guy's doings....we may come up with some interesting nuggets.
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Tom George Longstaff (15 January 1875 - 26 June 1964) was an English doctor, explorer and mountaineer, most famous for being the first person to climb a summit of over 7,000 meters in elevation, Trisul, in the Indian Himalaya in 1907. He also made important explorations and climbs in Tibet, Nepal, the Karakoram, Spitsbergen, Greenland, and Baffin Island. He was president of the (British) Alpine Club from 1947 to 1949 and a founding member of The Alpine Ski Club in 1908.

Contents [hide]
1 Early life
2 War service
3 Mountaineer
4 References

[edit] Early life
Longstaff was the eldest son of Lt-Col. Llewellyn W. Longstaff OBE of Wimbledon, the first and most generous supporter of Captain Scott's National Antarctic Expedition.[1] He was educated at Eton College, Christ Church, Oxford, and St Thomas' Hospital, London.[1]

[edit] War service
Longstaff was commissioned into the 1/7th Battalion of the Hampshire Regiment in 1914 and served on the General Staff at Army Headquarters, Simla, 1915-1916. He was Assistant Commandant of the Gilgit Corps of Scouts, Frontier Militia, and Special Assistant at Fort Gupis to the Political Agent in Gilgit, from 1916, and was promoted Captain in 1917, retiring from the service in 1918.[1]

During the Second World War, he served with the 7th and 13th Battalion of the KRRC from 1939 to 1941.

[edit] Mountaineer
Longstaff climbed in the Alps, the Caucasus, Himalayas, Selkirk, Rocky Mountains, Greenland, and Spitsbergen.

Before the Great War, he travelled in Tibet in 1905, ascended Trisul in the Himalayas, 1907, and in 1908 was awarded the Gill Memorial by the Royal Geographical Society for his work in the Himalaya and Tibet. He went on to explore the Siachen Glacier and discovered the peaks of Teram Kangri in 1909.

After the war, he took part in an Oxford University Expedition to Spitsbergen in 1921 and was chief medical officer and naturalist on the British Mount Everest Expedition of 1922. He returned to Spitsbergen in 1923 and to the Garhwal Himalaya in 1927. He led the Oxford University Expedition to Greenland in 1928 and the same year was awarded the Founder's Medal of the Royal Geographical society for his work in the Himalaya, especially his discovery of the Siachen Glacier. In Greenland again, 1931 and 1934, and Baffin Island, 1934.

He lived at Achiltibuie, in the Highlands of Scotland, where he died at the age of eighty-nine on June 27 1964.[2]
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gaurav_S »

India plans another civilian trek to Siachen
NEW DELHI: Cocking a snook at Pakistan yet again, India is planning to organise another civilian trekking expedition to the forbidding Siachen Glacier-Saltoro Ridge region in September-October this year.

The first edition of this civilian trek to Siachen in 2007 had riled Pakistan no end, which had held that opening the "disputed territory'' for tourism would lead to "serious consequences'' and "vitiate the atmosphere for the peace process''.

India, however, had gone ahead with the trek in keeping with its long-standing stand that Siachen remains non-negotiable till Pakistan accepts iron-clad "authentication'' of the 110-km Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), both on the map and on the ground, which separates the two armies in the glacial region.

"The trek this year is at the planning stage. It will include 35-40 volunteers, including women, journalists, DRDO scientists, enthusiasts from other organisations and cadets of military schools,'' said a defence ministry official.

The trekkers, who first will acclimatise and train in basic mountaineering craft at Leh, will be escorted by soldiers during the arduous four-week programme, which will also see them visiting some Army positions on the way.

Incidentally, it was Pakistan's grant of a permit to a Japanese expedition in 1984 to climb the Rimo Peak, located east of Siachen and overlooking Aksai Chin, in the hope of laying a legal claim to the area, which had acted as the final provocation for India to airlift troops to the region.

Under "Operation Meghdoot'' in April 1984, Indian troops had swiftly occupied the Saltoro Ridge heights, ranging from 16,000 feet to 22,000 feet, just ahead of Pakistani troops trying to do the same.

Though both India and Pakistan accept the need to demilitarise the glacial heights, the bone of contention in the protracted negotiations has been the "authentication'' of the AGPL beyond the NJ-9842 grid reference point -- where the well-delineated Line of Control simply stopped dead in the 1972 Simla Pact -- right till the Karakoram Pass.

Occupying as it does virtually all the "dominating heights'' in the region, India wants the AGPL to be "authenticated'' first as an international safeguard before any troop disengagement, withdrawal and the final demilitarisation of the glacier.
Link

Nice too see some psy-ops by IA. Wondering if IA is planning to take some jingo from aam junta or scientists and journos only.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gaurav_S »

We want better socks: Jawans to Antony at Siachen
Leh (J&K), June 22 (PTI) Reduction in telephone call rates, better socks and more snow mobiles. These were some of the demands put forth by army jawans at Siachen glacier when Defence Minister A K Antony met them there.

"The jawans wanted that some of the accessories such as quality of socks should be improved. They also wanted increased number of snow mobiles for their operational requirements," Defence Ministry officials said here.

The jawans also requested the Defence Minister to ensure that telephone call rates are reduced to facilitate communication with their family members, they added.

After listening to the demands, Antony assured them that early action will be taken on all the issues raised by them.
We want better socks: Jawans to Antony at Siachen
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

After reading the article below, one will be in total awe of our army men who captured this peak (Bana Top) and sheer disgust for our government who uses the same peak as a bargaining chip with Pakistan. No value of life and sacrifice...pathetic!

----------------------------

Army watches as Siachen dialogue resumes
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... logue.html

On a moonless night in Siachen, in May 1987, Second Lieutenant Rajiv Pande’s thirteen-man patrol silently climbed towards Quaid Post, a 21,153-feet high pinnacle near the crucial Bilafond La pass that was held by 17 Pakistani soldiers. Quaid had to be captured and Pande was fixing ropes on the near-vertical, 1500-feet ice wall just below the post, to assist a larger follow-on force in making a physical assault. As the jawans fixed the ropes, gasping for breath in that oxygen-depleted altitude, the Pakistani sentries just a few hundred feet above heard them. Gunfire rang out killing nine Indian soldiers, including Pande. But the four survivors could tell their unit, 8 Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry (8 JAK LI), that the ropes were fixed.

Capturing Quaid post was vital being the only Pakistani post that dominated key Indian positions at Bilafond La. Realising its importance, Pakistan named it after Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. The post, commanded by Subedar Ataullah Mohammed, was held by commandos from the elite Special Services Group.

With the ropes in place, 8 JAK LI helicoptered an assault team to Bilafond La. Since the Cheetah helicopter can only ferry a single passenger in those extreme heights, and because of frequent blizzards, it took 25 days for the team to gather. On 23rd June, sixty-four soldiers, commanded by Major Virendar Singh, began the attack, all night they searched in waist-deep snow for the rope fixed by Pande’s patrol. Unable to find it, they fell back to base.

The next night a silent cheer went up as the rope was found. In single file, with their rifles slung across their backs, the first section (10 men) started the ascent to Quaid, crossing en route the bodies of Pande and his patrol, still roped together in death. Halfway up, the Pakistani defenders spotted them and opened a murderous fire. Pinned to the ice wall and unable to fire back --- their weapons had suffered "cold arrest", jammed solid from the minus 25 degree cold --- the assault team sheltered in craters formed by artillery shells. There they spent the entire day exposed, frozen, hungry and under Pakistani fire.

At nightfall on the 25th, the attack began anew. Now the neighbouring Indian posts --- Sonam and Amar --- also fired at Quaid, supplementing an artillery barrage. But each metre gained was paid for in blood; every Indian casualty needed four comrades to ferry him down. A brief rest, a cup of tea, and the four helpers were thrown back into battle. "By any measure, we should have dropped from exhaustion," said Major Virendar Singh, describing the events to Business Standard. "But Pande had to be avenged, and the relentless firing from Quaid reminded us of what we had to do."

By daybreak on the 26th, it became evident that capturing Quaid post would need a daylight frontal assault. With the entire army brass' attention riveted on this unfolding drama, the brigade commander, Brigadier Chandan Nugyal, radioed Virendar, promising him fire support from every artillery gun in range if he could finish the job. "I knew we would not last another night on a bar of 5-Star chocolate. We fixed the attack for noon", says Virendar.

After a massive barrage of artillery fire, Virendar closed onto the post with his 8-man assault party. Simultaneously, another small team outflanked Quaid from below and cut the ropes that the Pakistanis used. Subedar Mohammad knew the game was up. Four defenders jumped off the post, preferring instant death in the abyss below to being shot or bayoneted in combat. The two who remaining were quickly killed. By 3 p.m. the Indian assault party staggered onto Quaid.

"We had no strength to celebrate. At 21,000 feet, nobody does the bhangra, yells war cries, or hoists the tricolour. Ultimately, sheer doggedness wins. If we had once hesitated, Quaid would still be with Pakistan," recounts Virendar. An admiring army awarded a Param Vir Chakra to Naib Subedar Bana Singh of the assault party and renamed Quaid post Bana Top; and a Maha Vir Chakra and 7 Vir Chakras to other bravehearts of 12 JAK LI. Virendar, who was severely wounded by an artillery shell after Quaid post was captured, won a Vir Chakra, as did Lieutenant Pande.

Indian posts across Siachen, like Bana Top, many of them won at similar cost, will be on the negotiating table today and tomorrow, as the defence secretaries of India and Pakistan meet for the 12th round of dialogue to resolve the Siachen dispute. The Pakistan Army --- for whom Siachen represents a stinging defeat at the hands of the Indian Army --- wants to erase that memory by demilitarising Siachen. It wants both sides to vacate their positions and pull back to an agreed line, well short of the glacier. But the Indian Army has little trust for its Pakistani counterpart after the Kargil intrusion and years of fighting terrorism. It asks: how do we know that Pakistan will not reoccupy Siachen after we withdraw? How can you assure us that we will not have to capture Bana Top again?

During 11 previous rounds of dialogue New Delhi had demanded a signed map from Pakistan, showing its forward troop locations, as a prerequisite for a Siachen settlement. Pakistan demurs, ostensibly because that would legitimise India's intrusion into Siachen. Rawalpindi’s refusal to authenticate its positions has scuttled all previous dialogue. The reason for that reluctance, the Indian Army believes, is that a signed map would clearly show how badly Pakistan was beaten in Siachen. Although Pakistan terms it the Siachen dispute, its forward-most positions cannot even see the glacier. From 13th April 1984, when an all-volunteer Indian force was helicoptered to the Bilafond La pass, India’s complete control of the Saltoro Ridge has shut Pakistan out of Siachen.

Over the years, at enormous cost in dead and injured, the Indian Army has developed enormous skill at surviving at “super altitudes”. In the 1980s, casualties from frostbite and altitude sickness ran in the hundreds. By the end of the last decade, they were down to 20-22 per year. During the last eight years, nobody has died. Today, barely 10-12 soldiers are evacuated annually.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has termed Siachen "a mountain of peace", and has tended to view it as a bargaining chip in the larger dialogue process with Pakistan. For the Indian Army, though, Siachen symbolises a super human feat of arms, sustained over decades. Generals today recall that the blood-soaked capture of the strategic Haji Pir Pass in 1965 was undone at the negotiating table in Tashkent. And many wonder whether history is about to repeat itself.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Rakesh wrote:... But the Indian Army has little trust for its Pakistani counterpart after the Kargil intrusion and years of fighting terrorism. It asks: how do we know that Pakistan will not reoccupy Siachen after we withdraw? How can you assure us that we will not have to capture Bana Top again?...
How will GoI react if indeed a rogue PA takes over Siachen?

a. Will we open other fronts to retake it the 'easy way'
b. Send our troops in with instructions not to cross LoC and AGPL at any cost
c. Send dossiers and lodge diplomatic protests

My guess is somewhere between b&c.

Demilitarization of Siachen and disbanding of RR can squader away the gains the nation has made in J&K over 20 years.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Aditya G wrote:
Demilitarization of Siachen and disbanding of RR can squader away the gains the nation has made in J&K over 20 years.
This kind of argument is fake. With PRC troops in Gilgit and Baltistan and their access to Aksai Chin how is this going to be given away. This is about strategic foothold of the entire center of asia and near the faultline of asia.
This is not about just a small area of J&K is asia but the CG of the entire Asian landmass.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

I recall Sunil S, etc discussion issues related to this topic.

The new element is China. Her presence in PoK has to change some of the dynamics.

However, my gut feel is that MMS is out to "make something happen". I just hope he is not putting more on the plate of future gens (pun intended).
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by anupmisra »

Aditya G wrote:How will GoI react if indeed a rogue PA takes over Siachen?
There is no "if" but "when". That the pakis will retry to regain Siachen after an accord is a certainty.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

I think we are showing too little confidence in both our Govt and the Army. Even though politicians are known to take utterly foolish and careless decisions, no one is stupid enough to demilitarize Siachen. There is no way that is ever going to happen. If the Army can stand up this much for AFSPA, there is no way they will accept demilitarization of Siachen. Because if we would lose Siachen, there is no way we would be able to recapture it. And even if we managed to, it would make Kargil look like a stroll in the park. That is not because of any lacking in our capability, but because of the harshness of the terrain. Kargil was a monumental effort, but Siachen is a totally different ballgame altogether.

But I don't think it would even come to that. Even the Govt is not that crazy. Such chai biskut meetings have been going on for decades, so why this sudden need to worry has arisen?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

My worry is, there is more to it than Chai-Bikoot... AK Antony is Booming against it and Arundati Roy is silent... has a deal already been made with the Pakees?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by arunsrinivasan »

@ Gaur, well it may be a chanakian strategy to pressure the GOI, and ensure that the Govt doesnt not even think of any concessions. It could be a classic preemptive move.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nandakumar »

Talks on demilitarisation of Siachen fails says this news report
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 39916.html
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rajanb »

The talks have failed. The more biskoots the Pakis eat the more we want from them. :rotfl:

Way to go :wink:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by amit »

rajanb wrote:The talks have failed. The more biskoots the Pakis eat the more we want from them. :rotfl:

Way to go :wink:
I think the facial expressions says it all:

Image

The tall TFTA mard ex-TSPA looks constipated after eating all those Marie biskoots. The SDRE on the other hand positively relishes them.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

amit wrote:I think the facial expressions says it all: The tall TFTA mard ex-TSPA looks constipated after eating all those Marie biskoots. The SDRE on the other hand positively relishes them.
SDREs want to drag Paki H&D down, they are demanding "While Pakistan is dragging its feet on providing clear-cut guarantees for authentication of the 110-km Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) in the Saltoro Ridge-Siachen region, India wants Pakistan to authenticate AGPL both on the map and ground."...

Pakees being Pakees are baulking, If Pakees authenticate the ground position on a map, then they acknowledge the fact that they don't control anything on the Glacier (their posn is actually way to the west of the glacier with Desh controlling the glacier and the Ridges around it). There will be more Chai-biskooth, more baileys, visits and Biriyanis...

They probably will meet in a year to decide when they are again going to meet to discuss Siachen, by then the next Indian election would be due and so Netas would get into Campaign mode... by then expect Druv MarkIII to lift more construction material to Siachen to build better bunkers and Artillery nests...
chilaaks...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Luxtor »

Taken from the book 'Fangs of Ice – Story of Siachen' by Lt Col Ishfaq Ali ...

In this story, the writer's self glorification of pukis is so amateurish and tasteless. Talking about angels, glowing faces, bravery, few men holding off an entire company, blah, blah, blah. Failing to mention that in the first place the pukis snuck up on the Bana Post and held the high ground from which it is much easier to defend with a few men against larger number of up climbing adversaries. He doesn't mention this at all. He claims the tenacity, skill, bravery of the pukis what kept the Indians, hmm, let me rephrase that ...kept the Hindus away for so long with so many casualties. I laughed my head off all through the reading of this little passage from the book, it was so comical. You know what, let the pukis who write these books keep writing like this. This will continue to keep the puki army in a drunken stupor of self glorifications and their people fooled as well. When they lose battle after battle, war after war to India, they're befuddled why their supermen get humiliated so badly.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

China fear makes India harden Siachen stand
...
China's expanding strategic footprint in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, in fact, seems to have led India to harden its stand, which till now was largely about Pakistan providing iron-clad guarantees to "authenticate" the 110-km Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) along the Saltoro Ridge, on maps and on ground.
...
..
For one, the Army is clear that if Pakistani troops occupy the heights vacated by it, then dislodging them from there would be virtually impossible. For another, if Indian soldiers had not been sitting atop heights ranging from 16,000 to 22,000 feet, Pakistan from the west would have long joined up with its "all-weather ally" China from the east through the Karakoram Pass to threaten Ladakh.

...
...
Indian soldiers, after all, occupy almost all the dominating Saltoro heights, sitting as they do 2,000 feet above the Pakistan positions. The Army has also stemmed its massive haemorrhage of earlier years in the world's highest, coldest and costliest battlefield with better infrastructure and logistics in place. Harsh weather-related casualties in the treacherous terrain, initially very high, are next to negligible now, say officers.

"What is the hurry? The over Rs 3 crore it takes per day to sustain our troops in Siachen is not prohibitive. If Pakistan could violate the well-defined Line of Control during the 1999 Kargil conflict, what is the guarantee they will respect the AGPL? That is why we have been insisting on foolproof authentication of the AGPL," said an official.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gagan »

The Dhruv mark-III will indeed make a lot of difference to the Siachen-Saltoro Range area.

Now I can only dream of a WSI Dhruv Mark-III deployed at the Saltoro range.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Gagan wrote:The Dhruv mark-III will indeed make a lot of difference to the Siachen-Saltoro Range area.

Now I can only dream of a WSI Dhruv Mark-III deployed at the Saltoro range.
:mrgreen: :D
And Pukes will know the difference life and instant 72oos .
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Luxtor wrote:Taken from the book 'Fangs of Ice – Story of Siachen' by Lt Col Ishfaq Ali ...

In this story, the writer's self glorification of pukis is so amateurish and tasteless. Talking about angels, glowing faces, bravery, few men holding off an entire company, blah, blah, blah. Failing to mention that in the first place the pukis snuck up on the Bana Post and held the high ground from which it is much easier to defend with a few men against larger number of up climbing adversaries. He doesn't mention this at all. He claims the tenacity, skill, bravery of the pukis what kept the Indians, hmm, let me rephrase that ...kept the Hindus away for so long with so many casualties. I laughed my head off all through the reading of this little passage from the book, it was so comical. You know what, let the pukis who write these books keep writing like this. This will continue to keep the puki army in a drunken stupor of self glorifications and their people fooled as well. When they lose battle after battle, war after war to India, they're befuddled why their supermen get humiliated so badly.
Yeah, great valor... did he mention that after all that "they lost the post".... Pakis are great at winning minor skirmish and battles but losing EVERY war. they just keep gloating on the warm glow these minor victories give them...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

It looks like it was not all chai-biskoot in the Siachen discussion...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... ut-no.html

It was samosa-chai... that is indeed progress... We can next server Sheek Kabob (in three years when they meet next) :rotfl:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

The Pakistan side presented a non-paper on Siachen.
Next time, present the Pakistanis with a bill for the chai.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Gerard wrote:
The Pakistan side presented a non-paper on Siachen.
Next time, present the Pakistanis with a bill for the chai.
Chai-biskot-Samosas are free... Siachen or Kashmir is not available at any cost... Pakis can shove up all their paper up dark tight places...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Luxtor »

I hope there will come a time soon where we can stop wasting our time negotiating with the pukis over anything. They are not trustworthy, they never keep their word. Agreements and promises are just a temporary instrument for them to keep us at bay and lull us into complacency so they can sneak up on us.

How can you tell that a puki is lying? .... (drum roll please) ....... His lips are moving.

We can help the pukis from ever having to repeatedly endure the indignity of negotiating with the kafir yindoos....by taking back all of Kashmir. I look forward to that wonderful day. I hope it happens in my lifetime.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^These all are meant to keep the amirkhan happy...."we are taking, you see...them pakees don't agree, what to do onleeee...we're all peacefull, onleeee....."
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

putnanja wrote:China fear makes India harden Siachen stand
...
China's expanding strategic footprint in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, in fact, seems to have led India to harden its stand,
otherwise siachen was on platter? :eek:
or is this a tact of luring and blackmailing pakis over chinese presence in pok? :)
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

^^
No, it is the usual dhoti shivering and sensationalism in which DDM excels.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ManuT »

 Generals today recall that the blood-soaked capture of the strategic Haji Pir Pass in 1965 was undone at the negotiating table in Tashkent. And many wonder whether history is about to repeat itself.
Probably worth mentioning here that haji pir was in Indian hands till the last days of the war in 1947 war.

It slipped out because of a miscalculation by the Indian commander who had relieved the previous one. Considering of little value in an error of judgement he moved troops around it.

Pakistanis moved in just before the ceasefire took effect, depriving Indians of an opportunity to counter attack. (Such are the pitfalls of 'agreements' with TSP)

So it was like that till 65, when it was recaptured then returned by Tashkent agreement.

I am sure in returning it LBS was unaware of it's history, not blaming him, just unawareness. Hopefully situation is slightly different today.

A person in his position should not have the authority to give away land, much less to his personal preferences, without total internal agreement and long  internal consultations.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

ManuT wrote: Probably worth mentioning here that haji pir was in Indian hands till the last days of the war in 1947 war.
It slipped out because of a miscalculation by the Indian commander who had relieved the previous one. Considering of little value in an error of judgement he moved troops around it.
I am surprise to see this, How did a commander on the ground decide that the "pass was on little value", who authorized him to vacate that position. No pass would be considered "of little value", that too so close to the front-line. in 1947 IA had to expend much effort to capture and hold Hazi Pir pass, the way you mention, it looks like 2 sentries' mix-up in a post. another sad chapter in the Kashmir saga!!!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ParGha »

In Mid-/Late-December 1948 the pickets were pulled from the Haji Pir Pass for the winter, the Paks promptly took over, and the ceasefire went into effect on Jan 1, 1949.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

ParGha wrote:In Mid-/Late-December 1948 the pickets were pulled from the Haji Pir Pass for the winter, the Paks promptly took over, and the ceasefire went into effect on Jan 1, 1949.
So sad, and they did the same thing in Kargil in 1999. Paki MO does not change and we take it on our face both times.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

I just don't understand onething, if India considers the whole of Jammu & Kashmir as an "In alienable" part of India, why is negotiating on Siachen glacier which it anyway holds? what is it hoping to gain?

If It held such an upper hand in 1965 or 1971, why did they not resolve the whole Kashmir issue? Sometimes, it makes one beleive the Pakis when they claim they won the 1965 and 1971 war (Bangladesh not withstanding)...

One Paki Anal-ist claims that in 1971, Pakis wanted to fight on but Indians wanted a CEASEFIRE (surrender in Paki speak)... we have heard similar drivel after Kargil too. what gives?!?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

cheenum wrote: One Paki Anal-ist claims that in 1971, Pakis wanted to fight on but Indians wanted a CEASEFIRE (surrender in Paki speak)... we have heard similar drivel after Kargil too. what gives?!?
:rotfl:
Pakis were following their Arap biradhers onlee. Don't you know? In 1967, the Araps wanted to fight on, but Israel wanted a ceasefire. So the Araps surrendered vast tracts of land to the Israelis.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

you missed my point.. If we had such a high hand after 1971 Bangladesh war, why didn't we run their nose to the ground and demand all of Jashmir back, or atleast strategically significantly positions, or better wrest it back from them. I have heard that IG gave back certain territories which were captured from Pakis in the western sector (am not sure if it was in J&K).
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