Siachen News & Discussion

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sudeepj
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

rohitvats wrote:I'm actually quite sick and tired of all this talk of "Siachen of no consequence" from Indian peace-nicks.....is there even a single article on these lines from the Pakistan press or any of their think-tanks or ex-army officials? All this talk on the lines of "not a blade of grass grows" is meant only for Indian consumption....no one will loose anything if tomorrow pakees do another Kargil on us.....but this time, they'll not sit on the Saltoro because their claim line makes the entire Siachen as theirs....
Actually, Zia-Ul_Haq used the phrase, "not a blade of grass grows.." when we first took the Saltoro ridge, and the Pakistani political parties were criticizing him.

I am yet to see a map, that shows how us being on the Saltoro ridge helps us dominate the Karakorum highway, or helps us in dominating Skardu/baltistan etc. If the area has no strategic consequence, why be there? I am happy to be educated, so if someone can point out a map to me, and say, this is how we dominate these areas, I think it will add to the discussion. So far, its only been hand waving..
ramana
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Its our land. Whats the issue?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23007 »

sudeepj wrote:
Actually, Zia-Ul_Haq used the phrase, "not a blade of grass grows.." when we first took the Saltoro ridge, and the Pakistani political parties were criticizing him.

I am yet to see a map, that shows how us being on the Saltoro ridge helps us dominate the Karakorum highway, or helps us in dominating Skardu/baltistan etc. If the area has no strategic consequence, why be there? I am happy to be educated, so if someone can point out a map to me, and say, this is how we dominate these areas, I think it will add to the discussion. So far, its only been hand waving..
I am not familiar with the geography of siachin or its strategic implications so won't comment on the matter. Regardless, it's pretty inane to ask, "why be there?' Saying that this territory doesn't bestow any strategic advantage is no argument for abandoning it. Things might change tomorrow in ways we cannot anticipate presently. Who takes care of that contingency?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

ShauryaT wrote:
rohitvats wrote:what happens if the PA occupies the Saltoro ridge and actually roll down the Siachen? .
Two separate things.

If they occupy the ridges that means the detection and monitoring has failed.
This is the second time someone has mentioned detection and monitoring of Saltoro on this thread. I assume this is to be done using satellites, fixed intruder tracking radars (which will be maintained by djinns I guess in the absence of troops), etc. What I don't understand is what is the IA supposed to do if it detects PA activity near the empty IA positions on Saltoro ridge? It takes several days for soldiers to trek to those positions from the Siachen base camp. It is much easier to reach them from the paki side. So by the time the IA sends a patrol to check out the PA activity, the pakis will be happily sitting on top of Saltoro ridge.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

If Siachen has no strategic importance, why do Pakis want us to vacate it? They could leave and let us suffer there.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

nachiket wrote: This is the second time someone has mentioned detection and monitoring of Saltoro on this thread. I assume this is to be done using satellites, fixed intruder tracking radars (which will be maintained by djinns I guess in the absence of troops), etc. What I don't understand is what is the IA supposed to do if it detects PA activity near the empty IA positions on Saltoro ridge? It takes several days for soldiers to trek to those positions from the Siachen base camp. It is much easier to reach them from the paki side. So by the time the IA sends a patrol to check out the PA activity, the pakis will be happily sitting on top of Saltoro ridge.
Please go through this to understand the monitoring options.
http://tinyurl.com/7a64eju

This was originally linked by Rohitvats.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

There are three arguments as I see it against occupation of the ridge: monetary cost, costs in human life, an irritant in Indo-Pak relations. If we can demilitarize the area, we save a few hundred million dollars in recurring expenditure per year and save a brigade level deployment in inhospitable territory.

I see some handwaving that being physically present on the ridge allows us to dominate this that and the other and prevents some kind of a linkage between China and Pakistan, but I havent yet seen a map that shows, this is how we dominate these areas, other than the immediate slopes below the ridge. Secondly, the connection between China and Pakistan is via the sea, by air and by Karakorum highway. Of these three links, do we even dominate the highway by occupying the ridge? The other two can presumably be disrupted in case of a war like situation.
Its our land. Whats the issue?
The lives and the money that we spend. There has to be a cost to benefit analysis. I just dont see the benefits from occupying that area.
Regardless, it's pretty inane to ask, "why be there?' Saying that this territory doesn't bestow any strategic advantage is no argument for abandoning it. Things might change tomorrow in ways we cannot anticipate presently.
Rite. Please go ahead and perch yourself on K2. Last I heard, noone was there, and K2 also belongs to us.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ShauryaT wrote:
nachiket wrote: This is the second time someone has mentioned detection and monitoring of Saltoro on this thread. I assume this is to be done using satellites, fixed intruder tracking radars (which will be maintained by djinns I guess in the absence of troops), etc. What I don't understand is what is the IA supposed to do if it detects PA activity near the empty IA positions on Saltoro ridge? It takes several days for soldiers to trek to those positions from the Siachen base camp. It is much easier to reach them from the paki side. So by the time the IA sends a patrol to check out the PA activity, the pakis will be happily sitting on top of Saltoro ridge.
Please go through this to understand the monitoring options.
http://tinyurl.com/7a64eju

This was originally linked by Rohitvats.

ShauryaT,
People produce lifafa stuff to justify their jaunts. Its co-authored by a Paki and is from massa sponsered jaunt!

Kanwalji writes lots of stratergy stuff but when it comes to implementation is not there.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

The CFE in Europe was between the NATO and a coallpased FSU. In Siachen the TSP is harldy a collapsed power. Its a recalcitrant nation that chooses to occupy when it can and dispute when it cant. It has used irregulars to do their military work and reeks of non state actors. In KArgil also their Foreing Minister Abdus Sattar claimed irregular militants were occupying the Kargil posts.
They can pull a fast one after IA withdrawl and let LET or someother three letter outfit occupy and claim innocence.
And the role of the US is highly dubious in this regard due to their imperiative to leave Af-Pak with some fig leaf of a victory.

It cannot be at cost of India!!!

Honestly the pitch looks like a political statement by an ex-soldier. The last slides reek of political remarks.
And he relies on UNSC to give India justice in case of TSP occupation. I guess he doesn't knwo who occupies POK!!!!

Very naive ideas of a soldier who should know better about TSP!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:
Honestly the pitch looks like a political statement by an ex-soldier. The last slides reek of political remarks.
It is his view. One can read it the way one likes. As far as jaunts are concerned, the IA/MoD pays for his jaunt.

Doing nothing is not doing something.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_20645 »

I have- as some of you - viewed the suggestion of a withdrawal from the Saltoro range with alarm. Some thoughts in my IMHO of why we should not leave at all.

1. Its high time we renamed this topic and debate as "the Saltoro range" as that is where the forces are - and not on Siachen - glacier or otherwise.
2. Reiterate the only way NORTH from NJ9842 is to Indira Col and not EASTwards to the Karakoram pass - much as Pakistan may want us to believe that.
3. Pakistan in its national interests may want to think this was a cartographic expression of their claim and their claim is vested in their presumed right to Kashmir - which is a lot of B*.
4. However, we underestimate the strenght of their conviction and determination to "right this wrong" in their mind.
5. Consequently, they will occupy the Saltoro range the minute we leave and let their diplomats sort out the jaw-jaw process with India knowing fully well we cannot take it back.
( their ex Foreign secretary Shamsha Ahmed wrote a very revealing Op Ed in the News on this subject" Link attached)
6. Arguments by the peaceniks or Brig. Kanwal like believers focus on four things -
a)Its not worth the "cost" in human lives;
b)not worth the cost in Rs.
c)not worth despoiling the environment
d) not Strategic enough to invest so much in it.

All these are false and self serving arguments. ( The suggestion to involve the UN is laughable at best)
a) Our incompetent RM has indicated we lost 24 soldiers last year ( RIP brave men). We have more people dying due to road accidents in our Metros. And when we have rich drunken kids driving fast cars, they have slaughtered as many without serious consequences being meted out - in our metros. Even if we were to double the casualty figure given by our honorable RM that would still be the price we have to pay for our folly post 71 when we let go of our gains without settling the Kashmir issue.
b) For the budget that the Indian Defense Forces has this spend is a pittance. We lose more due to the corruption we have experienced in our acquisitions. Lets eliminate the corruption and fund our Siachen forces
c) We have already gone to various environmental fora and have declaimed that we cannot abide by the targets as we are devloping our economy. Simple question, would China worry about this factor if they were in a similar sitaution? Neither should we on such a vital aspect of our existence
d) Brig. Kanwal's arguments seem short sighted in view of all the Pakistan and the Army have done. Hiding Bin Laden in Abbotbad? Built Haqqani to attack our embassy and the West in Afghanistan? Nurtured the Quette Shura so we have a war with no end?
Gen Musharraf has often said the Kashmir is their jugular vein. Treat that comment with respect IMHO as they will throw everything to stay on the Saltoro range if we withdraw.
However for me the strategic reasons are three
1. The encirclement by China via the Karakoram highway.
2. Water
3. Oil
The last two are key for our country. We made a mistake not taking more territority so that we could have laid pipelines ( just as the Trans Alaska Oil pipline delivers oil or Oil is pumped from Siberia) from the "stans" to India - so that we diversify our source of Oil. Water, as long as we control the headwaters fo the Indus thats an ace up our sleeve. Paksitan knows that and that is why that denial is integrated into their Nuke startegy. Hopefullly we will never come to that.

If wishes were horses beggars could be kings...let me dream on..
Sun Tzu talks about being called by his emperor to accept a challenge. The challenge is to get his Emperoros concubines to drill as well as his regular soldiers. Sun Tzu took it up and said he would get it done in a short time ( 3 days?). The first day was a disaster as all teh concubines on the drill square giggled and did not obey his orders. The next day in the presence of the Emperor he chose a couple of his favourite cocubines and executed them in front of the Emperor. After that all the concubines follwed his drill instructions and he presented their flawless perofrmance to the Emperor!
Maybe its high time our leaders execute a couple of concubines of China so that our views are taking seriously if we want to sup at the high table of great powers.

Best

PS I will defer to the mods on how to include these links - one by Mr. Roeded Khan - a very astute and brilliant Civil Srvice officer and the other by Mr. Shamshad Ahmed the ex Foreign Secretary.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... 5930&Cat=9


http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... t=5/1/2012
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_20645 »

Sudeep Ji,
The forces we have are a fixed cost whether they are based in Siachen or Bhopal or Secunderabad. The costs like equipment etc are sunk costs as they have been spent - from an investment standpoint. The key costs are incremental costs - in terms of what else we are putting in place for them in Siachen. if there is a ceasefire then these costs would be consumed as our normal operating costs. if we wished to go for the "guns versus poor people" ( or toliets as some trolls started) debate then without a decrease in manpower those costs will continue as they are driven by the soldiers we have.
This is not to denigrate the sacrifces these brave men and women are making but that is the financial reality IMHO

K2 when I last saw the map was embedded in POK so I guess that would be a ridge too far :)
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

The key costs are incremental costs - in terms of what else we are putting in place for them in Siachen. if there is a ceasefire then these costs would be consumed as our normal operating costs.
With every bit of ration being transported mule/man/chopper on to the saltoro ridge, the operating costs are large. The second consumable is the high altitude equipment, these are not sunk costs.. Down jackets, parkas, sleeping bags, poles, crampons, wool socks - everything has a cost and a life span. In many cases, this equipment is imported and is very expensive. I believe it is this cost that people refer to, when they say 1000 crore Rs. an year for the Siachen deployment. This is not an insignificant amount.
K2 when I last saw the map was embedded in POK so I guess that would be a ridge too far
Well all of POK is claimed by India. I mentioned K2 in response to a line of argument that said, Its our land and thats all there is to it. And K2 quite near to Saltoro, only a few 10s of kms. Well in that case, K2 is our land, why not do Meghdoot2 on that? With the new Dhruv choppers, it may even be possible to sustain an MMG nest up there. The obvious answer (or question) is Why? What strategic advantage will it give us, and at what cost? This is the simple analysis that must be done for Siachen, as for K2 and so on.

You want to fight China, Pakistan.. good. But at least choose the place you fight smartly, so you are at an advantage and you dont have to spend a lot of money doing so. Right now, it appears to me, we are sitting on Saltoro ridge because if we go away, Pakistanis might sneak in and sit on Saltoro ridge/Siachen glacier. Thats circular logic at its best.

I come from a desperately poor state in India. One of the BIMARU states. Inspite of the progress India has made in malls and cellphones and so on, the quality of life for the poor people in my state has not substantially changed. Third biggest economy in PPP terms and so on massages the pride a bit, but at the end of the day, India is a desperately poor, third world country. A majority of our population does not have clean drinking water and toilets. Leave alone the poor, even the rich dont have access to clean water. The other day, one of my cousins contacted typhoid, which as you may know, spreads from contamination of food usually water, by fecal matter. She lives in a state capital and belongs to the top 1% strata of Indian society.

We are not so rich yet, that we can afford to throw away 1000Crore Rs. every year on barren land, on which not even a blade of grass grows, tens of kms away from civilian human settlement, with no strategic significance at all.

*Ill change my mind if someone shows how sitting on Saltoro allows us to dominate the Pakisani positions in PoK. (Preferably with a map, no handwaving please). From my understanding, the Pakistani position in Gyari is only a battalion level position, as opposed to our Brigade level position in Siachen. This shows that we cant project strength across Saltoro.. At best we can sit there, preventing the Pakistanis from sitting there.. We are in a tactically advantageous position, but what can we use this advantage for? if nothing other than to maintain that same tactically advantageous position, then what use is the advantage?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Somebody says, three strategic reasons.
1. The encirclement by China via the Karakoram highway.
Who lives there that is being encircled by Karakoram highway? What % of our trade transits that region? Can the Chinese come down that terrain? Having looked at the google map :mrgreen: I didnt feel that way.
2. Water
Siachen feeds into Nubra, that feeds into Shyok, that feeds into Indus. Chacha Nehru signed off those waters in the Indus Water Treaty. If you want water, there are better places to block that water/build dams etc., at lower altitudes. First think of completing Wullar barrage, Kishenganga and so on.
3. Oil
Can an oil pipeline be built in that terrain? Its still contested terrain.. one shell landing on that pipeline will put paid to your best plans. You will need peace with Pakistan to get any pipelines from the stans to India.

btw. Can the Karakoram highway be dominated by our positions on Saltoro? The reason I am asking is, I have never heard of traffic on that road being disrupted by us. Looking at google maps, the Karakoram highway is more than 50 kms away from Saltoro. My reading may be wrong, please correct me if I am..
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

sudeepj wrote: btw. Can the Karakoram highway be dominated by our positions on Saltoro? The reason I am asking is, I have never heard of traffic on that road being disrupted by us. Looking at google maps, the Karakoram highway is more than 50 kms away from Saltoro. My reading may be wrong, please correct me if I am..
KKH is about 200KM from Saltoro and it is mountain territory not plains plains that you can simply drive to, such as RYK!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

It is our area. If we go down, tomorrow somebody else is going to occupy it. Therefore, we stay there. End of discussion from my side.

Do we need any more reasons than that.

PS: I dont believe in "not a blade grows there" rhetoric nor will I trust any Paki sweet talk. I sure hope that people who dont understand this logic have decent sized lands without marked borders in a mafia infested area, especially after the mafia already occupies half of your land.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Kanishka »

What baffles me is that as soon as the Pakis say "jump" some of us ready to jump even if it means suicide.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Well some one mentioned 24 deaths in the Siachen deployment last year, its probably safe to multiply that figure by 5 to get at the total number of injuries. So there is a human cost to the deployment as opposed to the notional suicides.

Fetishizing "every inch of territory as sacred land" is stupid and a recipe for brittle borders. What is achieved by posting soldiers in far flung outposts, in penny packets, with long and tenuous supply lines? in fact, a lot of the supply is via air!

In any case, if Siachen AGPL is jointly authenticated, it becomes an extension of the LoC. if Pakistanis tomorrow attack across the LoC, at say Akhnoor, the response will not be a localized action there, it will be war across the international border. Why will Siachen be any different?
It is our area. If we go down, tomorrow somebody else is going to occupy it. Therefore, we stay there
Circular logic. We stay there, because if we dont, someone else will. Not because it confers any economic, political, or strategic advantage to us.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

ShauryaT and SudeepJ......

by sitting on ur google earth and in ur air conditioned home, u wont know what can be seen from the saltoro !! ask someone who has been there and they will tell u. The point is that after saltoro, the next defensible line is at KhardungLa. Occupation of siachen as i have been saying is to ensure a) more importantly, that our defence of Ladhak is not unhinged b) occupation of Saltoro and area close to NJ9842 allows us effectively checkmate any Pakistani plans c) while it is correct that large scale troop movements are not possible thru Bilafond la and Sia La or northern glacier but defences have to self supporting and so the need d) it is right that defences need not be bang on on our borders but on the closest defensibe line ( which in this case is saltoro). We dont want to repeat mistake of making Dhola post ( a La Shri Nehru in a total indefensible position).

b) Dont compare Vietnam and Siachen !! unless ofc Vietnam was American territory !! I clearly see its not only ur geography but your history is also as poor. U have no idea how nation states are built and preserved.

c) by your logic we should walk off all mountains..afterall do u think deaths/casualties only occur in Siachen and not in Kargil or other mountainous terrain? last time i heard a IA post got wiped out in Gurez. Why not walk off from there as well ( more so because at Gurez the line is well defined/demarcated?).
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> In any case, if Siachen AGPL is jointly authenticated, it becomes an extension of the LoC. if Pakistanis tomorrow attack across the LoC, at say Akhnoor, the response will not be a localized action there, it will be war across the international border. Why will Siachen be any different?

And since full war across the international border is cheap (in terms of blood and treasure), we should always prefer it over deployments in far-flung regions. So much for a sound "economic" analysis.

By the way, what was the cost of leaving the Kargil heights unmanned?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Manjgu: Is it possible for you to not get personal on my knowledge of history, geography the type of rooms I live in, who i talk to etc. very soon, I will have to hear from you, how Paki I am and do not understand anything...best to ignore my posts, if you cannot stop getting personal. Not responding to your posts.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

manjgu, have you been to Saltoro? Since you pointed out that I was posting from my air conditioned home, as opposed to you, who... I felt that you have been there.

I have Pavan Nairs hand drawn map from here http://www.epw.in/uploads/articles/13281.pdf in front of me, and I dont see any line of advance that the Pakistanis can make, across the Saltoro. The three passes across the Saltoro, Sia, Bilafond and Gyong, merely provide access to the Glacier. Lets agree, that Pakistanis cant move a force sizeable enough to 'unhinge the defense of Ladakh' via the glacier.

Khardung La is 50 kms south of the Glacier. Right at the entrance to Leh. All along the glacier, we have the Saltoro ridge, which continues well southeast of NJ9842. Are you saying, that Pakistanis will ingress in say, anything more than a company size force, through the sia, bilafond and gyong la, and roll down the glacier with its crevasses and icefalls and avalanches and threaten Leh? What about their logistics tail? They have a hard time supporting their defensive positions west of the Saltoro. What about the Saltoro ridgeline southeast of NJ9842, positions along which will easily dominate the entire glacier? Even thinly manned observation posts along the ridge will be able to spot, delay/stop such an advance. Once spotted, such an advance has no chance of succeeding. At most they can sneak in, but not fight.

c) by your logic we should walk off all mountains..afterall do u think deaths/casualties only occur in Siachen and not in Kargil or other mountainous terrain? last time i heard a IA post got wiped out in Gurez. Why not walk off from there as well ( more so because at Gurez the line is well defined/demarcated?).
Well I can easily see the strategic value of Gurez, for one, its a populated district, its an infiltration route, and possibly NH1A is visible from heights along the sector. I dont see any thing of similar value in the Saltoro ridge.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> In any case, if Siachen AGPL is jointly authenticated, it becomes an extension of the LoC. if Pakistanis tomorrow attack across the LoC, at say Akhnoor, the response will not be a localized action there, it will be war across the international border. Why will Siachen be any different?

And since full war across the international border is cheap (in terms of blood and treasure), we should always prefer it over deployments in far-flung regions. So much for a sound "economic" analysis.
No point in demilitarizing far flung regions, if one believes that war is imminent or inevitable. One takes such a demilitarization step, only if one is reasonably sure that war is an unlikely possibility. Does not mean all guards come down right there but measured steps can be taken and that is all what is being proposed for Siachen.
By the way, what was the cost of leaving the Kargil heights unmanned?
We can go on with the past or figure a way to move forward. It has to be either war or sue for peace. A choice has to be made, or the arguments keep on getting circular to no end.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

No point in demilitarizing far flung regions, if one believes that war is imminent or inevitable. One takes such a demilitarization step, only if one is reasonably sure that war is an unlikely possibility.
Wonderful. And what makes you think that Pakis have changed so much that war is an unlikely possibility?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> In any case, if Siachen AGPL is jointly authenticated, it becomes an extension of the LoC. if Pakistanis tomorrow attack across the LoC, at say Akhnoor, the response will not be a localized action there, it will be war across the international border. Why will Siachen be any different?

And since full war across the international border is cheap (in terms of blood and treasure), we should always prefer it over deployments in far-flung regions. So much for a sound "economic" analysis.

By the way, what was the cost of leaving the Kargil heights unmanned?
Kargil heights are strategic, because one can directly observe Nh1A from there. Do we have any such advantage from Saltoro ridgeline, northeast of NJ9842?

Lets authenticate the line occupied by our soldiers and monitor the enemies actions across the authenticated line. Whats the point in sitting there and having 25 odd of our soldiers killed, 100 odd injured, and spending 1000crore rs an year?

Our Army does not man, say, areas along the Rajasthan/Gujarat border.. Similarly, we have ITBP along significant stretches of the Indo-China border. Whats special about this particular place?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

I think I have made my point here, and will reduce the freq. of posting in this thread. As far as I can see, only one point has been made for physically occupying Saltoro so far, and that is:

If we vacate, Pakistanis can come in and occupy, and we will have a hard time dislodging them.

Other than this, IMHO, there is no value to holding Saltoro/Siachen, that has no economic, political, or strategic value.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

sudeepj wrote:
Kargil heights are strategic, because one can directly observe Nh1A from there. Do we have any such advantage from Saltoro ridgeline, northeast of NJ9842?
India can watch five countries from this area.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Wonderful. And what makes you think that Pakis have changed so much that war is an unlikely possibility?
This is too broad a question and you will have to come to your own understanding of the situation. There are changes in the past decade or so, in every aspect of Pakistani society, institutions, geo-politics, India's own changing dynamics, changes in Afghanistan, their existential paranoia has subsided but their intern al insecurities have increased. Just way too many factors to list down all the reasons and not the thread for it. Please look at Managing Pakistan thread or the BK thread.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Yeah, right. In a different thread you made similar claims and could not provide evidence for it. It appears that your "understanding" is not based on observable evidence.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

sudeepj wrote: Kargil heights are strategic, because one can directly observe Nh1A from there. Do we have any such advantage from Saltoro ridgeline, northeast of NJ9842?
Pakis planned and executed Kargil because they wanted to cut off India's access to Siachen. Remember? So the strategic advantage of Kargil is partly derived from the importance of Siachen. Also see this article.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Yeah, right. In a different thread you made similar claims and could not provide evidence for it. It appears that your "understanding" is not based on observable evidence.
No, this is not about "evidence" it is a considered view. You can come to your own views based on observation of events over time. Many stalwarts and people who have observed Pakistan for their entire lives, disagree on this matter, so there is no clinching evidence or even consensus. I do not think evidences such as reduced support for infiltration and a cease fire, since 2003 is likely going to convince you. so, let us leave it.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

I do not think evidences such as reduced support for infiltration and a cease fire, since 2003 is likely going to convince you. so, let us leave it.
I don't think evidence like increase in terrorist events since 2003 is going to cure your selective amnesia. so, let us leave it.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_20645 »

The situation is the Pakistan is not going to authenticate the GPL at the Saltoro ridge- as Foreign Secretary Shamshad Ahemd writes in his OpEd that I quoted earlier.
So the question is should we withdraw if the do not authenticate it. My vote is No.
If they autenticate it then we have a different discussion as it potentially becomes a border like the LOC.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote: Kargil heights are strategic, because one can directly observe Nh1A from there. Do we have any such advantage from Saltoro ridgeline, northeast of NJ9842?
Pakis planned and executed Kargil because they wanted to cut off India's access to Siachen. Remember? So the strategic advantage of Kargil is partly derived from the importance of Siachen. Also see this article.
Agreed, but the primary importance comes from the link with Ladakh. To be sure, I dont recommend any unilateral withdrawal or establishment of a pre Meghdoot situation. Establish a jointly authenticated line along the Saltoro, then demilitarize with regular long range patrols/thinly manned surveillance etc.

Trust, but verify.. :-)

Thanks for the link, Ill read it over.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Wow the "strategery" stuff from Shaurya never seizes to amaze!

So India gets hit by terror attack after terror attack, and some stats about reduced infiltration and "cease fire" since 2003 are evidence, LOL?

Sorry but this sort of crazy talk is beyond belief.

I mean, what is with ShauryaT and the belief in quixotic positions just based on what some self identified expert says, even if many others are saying otherwise?

BKarnad famously gasses..err..declares that Indo-Pak wars are communal riots with tanks, the Indian Army should be downsized and the Strike Corps wound up, downsized, "rationalized", and this same gent phamously argues this on and on and on...rohitvats asks for specifics about how India would face any Pak threat...ShauryaT cites various strategeric answers..!

Now, its Siachen, and this quixotic rubbish after a foreign jaunt by Kanwal,...and we have more "strategery" about how India would use all sorts of fancy stuff to take back Siachen errmm...compensate for it, teach Pak a lesson. This after he himself bemoans the present leadership in India is incompetent etc and cannot do much. Yet, it will magically send Pakistan a ....dossier!! That must be it!

A pertinent point by Manjgu about getting out of airconditioned splendor and sparing a thought for the poor chaps in the IA who'll have to take it back is dismissed by Shri Shaurya as being too mean...ok dokie..

I mean what is with this peace at all costs rubbish, using all sorts of dodgy hare brained schemes proposed by guys who are soundly rebutted by their peers? The papers are full of army men outraged at talk of giving up Siachen, yet a dodgy PPT is cited as evidence that all "iz well"..

Look boss, you want peace at all costs with Pakistan, and think that Pakistan will change its spots, and open borders mean a return to pre-Pak sort of lovey duvey stuff, enable all sorts of pilgrimages to historic places or what not...fine, feel free to believe that.

Most of us don't buy into that rubbish.

And as Indian taxpayers, I am perfectly fine with my money going to Siachen - I'd rather it took a bit of money retaining it, than the sort of sacrifices demanded of Pande and his men. Spare a thought dear PPT citer, and think of what it'll take to get it back.

And read the below, and for cryign out loud don't get preachy and then say that;s why you are asking for a withdrawal. The point is that taking these positions back will cost far more in men and material - above and beyond all the costs already incurred, whereas the last decade has been to our advantage. With the Indian Army handling the weather and the Pakistanis struggling to maintain the expenditure. And Shaurya T would have us give all this up. This is strategy?

And yes, I do think its pertinent to ask whether going WKK is some sort of sane behaviour. Negotiate somebody else's territory away please. Not India's. Disband/reduce somebody else;s Army please. Not India's. Peddle these quixotic ideas elsewhere..
Siachen – Bravery Beyond Compare

Maj Gen Raj Mehta, AVSM,VSM(Retd)

The true, heart warming story of the capture against impossible odds of the Pakistani post, Quaid, the worlds highest battlefield post at 21153 feet (6749 metres) above sea level, from personnel of its elite commando force; the Special Services Group (SSG) by Naib Subedar (later Honorary Captain) Bana Singh, PVC, of 8 JAK LI and his brave hearts.

It was in the autumn of 1987 that I came in touch with the then Commander of the Siachen Brigade, the taciturn, supremely fit, wiry, sun-burnt Brig CS Nugyal (later Maj Gen CS Nugyal, PVSM, UYSM). We had assembled at the Rajputana Rifles Centre in Delhi Cantt to correct the tactics paper of the Army’s Promotion Examination Part ‘D’ that he had set. There were 12 of us; all Staff College qualified; young and high on self-esteem because we had been handpicked by Army Headquarters for this prestigious assignment. On top of that, we had, as Chief Examiner, a famous commander who was in the national news for masterminding the capture of a murderously effective Pakistani Post on the icy Saltoro Ridge called Quaid; a post that had caused us savage losses in lives and in infrastructure support.

We found soon enough that Brig Nugyal wasn’t easy to talk to. Reserved, dry, very Olive Green (OG), thorough and painstaking in all he did (to explain the correction process to us and oversee our work); this SIKH Regiment officer nevertheless commanded our collective awe and respect. In precise, surgical language he made it clear that he expected the highest integrity, professionalism and application of mind from us. We started off silently, determined to come up to his stringent expectations. It was only after several days that he unwound a bit, to talk about Naib Subedar Bana Singh and how Quaid got converted into Bana Post. He had got along an hour-long video cassette shot in VHS format which realistically replicated how the operation had taken place. He had just come after showing it to the then Raksha Mantri and Army Chief. We were held spell-bound watching it; stunned by the super human feat of arms in a manner that left us humbled by the daring and courage of Bana and his handful of deathless brave hearts.

In 1999, I was commanding a Rashtriya Rifles Sector in the Valley. The Kargil War was on, and, every few days, intimation would come to the Valley formations to send representatives to the JAK LI Centre to say farewell to the Kargil dead who were being airlifted to their homes. The dignified, pleasant Sub Maj Bana Singh, PVC, who was then posted at the Centre, was always present on the dozen odd occasions that I attended; solemn occasions which saddened all of us; even as we accepted that the loss of the soldiers was a price which the Army had to pay for preserving the country’s freedom. Back in the Valley in 2003 as a Division Commander, I invited Sub Maj Bana Singh to address the Division’s officers at Baramula about his death-defying feat on the icy wastes of the Saltoro Ridge. This slightly built, humble and charismatic man was heard with pin drop silence and deep respect.

Let us then examine what this extraordinarily courageous, god fearing JCO did to write the history of extreme high altitude warfare afresh in a manner that Pakistan for certain will never forget and military professionals laud for eternity.

See the illustration below. The name Siachen, in Balti, refers to a land abundant with black roses. Siachen glacier is located in the eastern Karakoram Range of the Himalayas, near the Line of Control betweenIndiaandPakistan.Indiacontrols the whole Siachen glacier complex. The main glacier is sandwiched between the Saltoro Ridge to its west, (occupied byIndia) and the mainKarakoram Rangeto its east.

http://southasianidea.com/wp-content/up ... chin-1.jpg

Indian troops are deployed on the Actual Ground Position Line from the end of NJ 9842 to Indira Col. Pakistan claims the area from NJ 9842 to the Karakoram Pass. Source: Frontline Volume 23 – Issue 04: Feb. 25 – Mar. 10, 2006.

The Siachen glacier is 76 km long, with its width varying from 1000-2500 metres. It falls from an altitude of 18,875 ft (5,753 m) at its head at Indira Col, down to 11,875 ft (3,620 m) at its terminus. The average winter snowfall is 35 feet, with temperatures in the upper reaches ranging from minus 30 degrees to minus 80 degrees centigrade. The crest of the dominating Saltoro Ridge which the Indian Army holds, and where Bana won his PVC, ranges in height from 17,880 to 25,330 feet (5,450 to 7,720 m). The major passes on this ridge are Sia La, Bilafond La and Gyong La.The Indian Army pickets are reachable only after a murderous climb and then a suicidal frontal assault, a near-hopeless task in such rarified, oxygen depleted air.

Let us now speak of our hero. Bana was born on 6 January 1949 into a Punjabi Sikh family, at Kadyal, a border village located in RS Pura, the famous Basmati rice-growing belt outside Jammu. He enrolled in the Indian Army on 6 January 1969 into 8 JAK LI. He was considered a keen and enterprising, intelligent soldier by his officers, handling diverse responsibilities such as being company clerk and handling quarter master duties as an NCO normally tenable by a senior JCO . He had also been trained in mountain warfare by the High Altitude Warfare School in Gulmarg and Sonamarg and was eminently combat fit; in other words he was, at a young age, an all round combat soldier whom his officers and peers respected; the peers and immediate seniors albeit with some form of healthy competitive envy.

On 20 April, 1987, Bana’s battalion was deployed, after due acclimatization, in the Siachen area. In a later interview with the famous author and Tibetologist, Claude Arpi, Bana stated that Quaid Post was already under occupation of the Pakistanis when the battalion arrived in the glacier. Named after Mohamed Ali Jinnah, the father of Pakistan, it was the most important and highest post in the area; one of the few occupied by Pakistan during it’s all out assault in 1987 on Saltoro Ridge under the command of then Brig Pervez Musharraf (later President of Pakistan), before they were beaten back from all but this post.

From Quaid Post, as the Indians would later find out, one could see 80 km around; indeed, almost the entire Saltoro Range including Indian posts like Amar and Sonam, which could only be supplied by helicopter. The Pakistanis could therefore prevent the supply of these posts as well as interdict any movement by accurate fire. In fact, on 18 April, 1987, firing from Quaid resulted in the death of a JCO and five soldiers at Sonam. It wasn’t just that. Sensing that a new battalion had come in, the Pakistanis carried out incessant shelling, causing casualties to the battalion in terms of precious lives lost. It thus became necessary to capture this post for the safety of our men and supporting helicopters.

The CO of 8 JAK LI, Col AP Rai, UYSM, (now deceased) proactively decided to send a patrol to find out the strength and disposition of the Pakistanis. On May 29, a 10 man patrol under the extraordinarily brave, resourceful and gutsy 2/Lt Rajiv Pande departed. Facing this dynamic young officer was a 90 degree climb on slippery ice walls that were 1500 feet in height which had to be negotiated to reach Quaid Post. On top of that, the weather was abysmal and visibility more so. This young man’s bravery has never really been given its military due. It was his tenacity, cold courage, high morale in sub-zero conditions where every step was an ordeal, especially when it came to fixing ropes against a vertical ice wall under intense shelling; surviving for over 48 hours without water and food, that really laid the foundations of the success that eventually followed. Unfortunately, nearing Quaid, they were detected by the SSG commandos and eight, including Lt Pande and his JCO killed. The officer was posthumously awarded a Vir Chakra.

Though the death of 2/Lt Rajiv and his men was tragic, the CO was now even more determined to succeed. What rankled the officers and men of the battalion was that the bodies of the dead lay for three weeks in front of them; unrecoverable because of the shelling and Pakistani visual domination. In effect this desire for revenging their death acted as a key spur in launching (with the approval of Brig Nugyal), “Operation Rajiv” to capture Quaid Post. A total of 62 people participated to the final operation; two officers, three JCO’s and 57 jawans. The operation was conducted in three phases on 23, 25 and 26 June, 1987. The platoon sent on 23 June under Major Varinder Singh, Bana’s aggressive and bold company commander, had to unfortunately come back half way, losing two soldiers in the bargain. Lt Pande had managed to fix ropes, but due to heavy snow fall, the ropes were not traceable. The ropes had therefore to be fixed all over again. The second platoon led by Subedar Sansar Singh with 10 jawans, made an attempt on 25 June. This time, there was no problem with the ropes, but due to a communication gap with the controlling headquarters; the mission had to be aborted. Col Rai, determined to succeed at all costs, had conveyed his determination to his command: “I don’t care what sacrifices we have to pay, but Quaid will be captured!” Naib Subedar Bana Singh, hand-picked by his CO for the challenging assignment, led the last attack, along with Riflemen Chunni Lal, Laxman Das, Om Raj and Kashmir Chand. It was exactly at eleven minutes after noon on 26 June 1987, when this final phase of “Operation Rajiv” was launched in heavily snowing conditions and gathering darkness.

In personal interaction with Honorary Captain Bana Singh, PVC, on the sidelines of a well attended public function organized at Jhansi on 16 April 2011 by the Society for Valour and Cultural Renaissance (SVCR); the brain child of a 75-year-old fiery lady nationalist-cum-author called Ms Shyam Kumari, this writer, who was also invited (he was wounded as a Brig in an encounter with Pakistani terrorists in South Kashmir in January 1998), Bana recalled the complete operation with exceptional clarity, humility and warm recall of his subordinates, peers and seniors. He remembered that, tossing and turning in uneasy sleep, because of the losses the paltan had suffered, and because he had to succeed in his mission, Bana suddenly sat up bolt upright from his troubled sleep, with his mind and body strangely charged for action. He felt he had heard Guru Gobind Singh say to him, “Bana, I want to test you” That was all the inspiration that this deeply religious man needed to go ahead. His soldiers were equally inspired and determined to win all or lose all: The die was cast. There would be no turning back.

Another incident he recalled involved his much respected company commander, Maj (later Brig) Varinder Singh, had been shot through the chest and stomach in the earlier phase of the operation and is believed to have resisted evacuation. (He received four bullets and was later awarded the Vir Chakra). He advised Bana to capture the Pakistanis alive when Quaid was attacked. Bana vehemently disagreed, saying in choice Punjabi, “Sir, eh… (edited) meri maasi de putt thori na haege! (Sir, these… [Edited] chaps are hardly my blessed aunt’s children!). Bana recalled that Virender’s face broke into a broad smile, in spite of all the prevailing tension.

All the starting signs of the final portion of “Operation Vijay” were of grim portent. It was literally darkness at noon, Bana recalled. The heavy, persistent snow fall and the poor ambient light conditions made you wonder if it was day or night. On top of that, the Pakistanis knew something was going on because of the artillery shelling that we had started from the gun areas in the base camp to make them put their heads down and also to divert their attention. Quaid, as Bana and his men well knew, was an impregnable glacier fortress with ice walls 1500 feet high on two sides. Naib Subedar Bana Singh led his men through an extremely difficult and hazardous route, climbing in near darkness through a snowstorm. He inspired them by his indomitable courage and leadership. Every pore of his body strained and yearned to reach that single bunker at the top. He was, after all, under test; a test pitched at the limits of human endurance and set by his beloved Guru Sahib. His men; inspired his raw determination and never-say-die spirit, followed their leader.

There was a single, deep bunker on the top, Bana recalled. The Pakistanis must have become complacent because of the foul weather; the heavy snowfall; their success in warding off the previous two efforts by the Indians to capture the post, and, not the least, the psychological feeling of superiority that the Pakistani soldiers, particularly the SSG under their boastful Brigade commander had come to believe in, that they were ten feet tall. He and his men were therefore able to close up to the bunker. Bana opened the entrance door, threw his grenades inside and closed the doors… His men set up their Light Machine Gun on single shot. In that extreme climate, the automatic weapon could fire only single shot… After the short but intense close quarter battle that took place, a total of six Pakistanis were killed, with two or three having been bayoneted. Perhaps there were more SSG personnel who may have fallen to their deaths in their effort to escape the Indians bullets, grenades and bayonets. Too much was happening for anyone to have a clear recall. What Bana recalled with a personal sense of loss still readable on his face 21 years after the operation, was that the Pakistanis, on realizing that the post was lost, started shelling it with their viciously effective air-burst ammunition. One of Bana’s brave hearts, Sepoy Om Raj had his hand blown off; surgically amputated by the shelling In spite of Bana’s best efforts to save his life, bad weather and visibility as well as the intense shelling colluded. Sepoy Om Raj passed away, being awarded a Vir Chakra posthumously. Bana recalls that, following the protocol and ethos of the Indian Army towards the dead, the bodies of the six SSG personnel were brought back by him and later handed over to Pakistan during a flag meeting at Kargil.

On the morning of 27 June 1987, the Brigade Commander, Brig CS Nugyal who had intimately been involved with the planning and execution of the operation, arrived by helicopter at the battalions launch base. Fiercely hugging Bana and his soldiers, he announced that hereafter, the 21153 feet (6749 metres) above sea level post so brazenly taken away from Pakistan by Naib Subedar Bana Singh and his men, would be called Bana Top in his honour; a decision that a grateful nation and a very proud Army indeed, have accepted for posterity.

Naib Subedar Bana Singh was awarded the Param Vir Chakra, the highest wartime gallantry medal in India, for conspicuous bravery and leadership under most adverse conditions. “Operation Rajiv” overall resulted in award of one MVC (for Subedar Sansar Singh), seven Vir Chakra’s and one Sena Medal, besides the PVC. The CO and the Commander were awarded UYSM’s. 8 JAK LI and 102 Infantry Brigade had reason to be proud; very proud indeed, for their stupendous skill at arms in the toughest high altitude terrain the world has ever known so far.


NAIB SUBEDAR BANA SINGH, PVC, 8 JAK LI.

Siachen – Bravery Beyond Compare : South Asian Idea
member_23007
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23007 »

sudeepj wrote:
The lives and the money that we spend. There has to be a cost to benefit analysis. I just dont see the benefits from occupying that area.

Rite. Please go ahead and perch yourself on K2. Last I heard, noone was there, and K2 also belongs to us.
More bunk to support a non argument. I didn't go perch myself (most of us didn't) at Kargil in 1999 either so perhaps we don't have locus to keep that either.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

sudeepj wrote:Agreed, but the primary importance comes from the link with Ladakh. To be sure, I dont recommend any unilateral withdrawal or establishment of a pre Meghdoot situation. Establish a jointly authenticated line along the Saltoro, then demilitarize with regular long range patrols/thinly manned surveillance etc.

Trust, but verify.. :-)

Thanks for the link, Ill read it over.
Sudeep, the Pakistanis dont want to agree to any joint authentication where they are held to have lost Siachen to India. Furthermore, even joint authentication is of limited use if they choose to seize it back, based on the tactical brilliance of the next Musharaff wannabe. They have tons of such idiots, each waiting to show his jihad waging expertise versus his peers. The end result are all these "ventures", where hundreds of Indians get killed, others maimed, in seeking to reverse such "limited wars". Thanks to nuke overhang, they have become far more brazen - they believe India will not attack them. And as long as pappi-jhappi chaps like MMS who have no personal risk involved, rule India, they feel even safer. Point is this trust but verify business only works when backed by deterrence. India has demonstrated no proper deterrent measure so far, when dealing with such behaviour. We only throw lives away to revert to the status quo. Furthermore, on talking with services officers, there is widespread acceptance of the fact that technology is of limited use in such altitudes. The detect, acquire, engage chain needs the human element. This is the reason we still occupy Kargil and the entire area after that war. No amount of LGBs or Krasnapol shells can guarantee success, end result is we have to be there.

So far, Siachen is being managed well by the Indian Army, but is bleeding the Pakistanis because their economy suffers. Its actually a plus for us. I dont know if you know this, but India has used Siachen to develop HA capabilities across the board, reducign casualties in the process, (DEBEL) developed a HAPO bag which has cut HAPO casualties to negligible levels. Basically, as time goes on, we' are doing better. The Pakistanis are just trying to get by negotiations, what they have failed to do so by war.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

I come from a desperately poor state in India. One of the BIMARU states. Inspite of the progress India has made in malls and cellphones and so on, the quality of life for the poor people in my state has not substantially changed. Third biggest economy in PPP terms and so on massages the pride a bit, but at the end of the day, India is a desperately poor, third world country. A majority of our population does not have clean drinking water and toilets. Leave alone the poor, even the rich dont have access to clean water. The other day, one of my cousins contacted typhoid, which as you may know, spreads from contamination of food usually water, by fecal matter. She lives in a state capital and belongs to the top 1% strata of Indian society.
Was somehow expecting this logic to crop up somewhere...So, if the Siachen deployment wasnt there, all these states would be overflowing with water. If we didnt have a standing army itself, even more money could have been saved!

By this logic, INC should be wound up today since they have gobbled up ~100,000 crores within hardly 3 years of UPA-2. That could have helped the BIMARU states develop to world-class standards!!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

sum wrote:
I come from a desperately poor state in India. One of the BIMARU states. Inspite of the progress India has made in malls and cellphones and so on, the quality of life for the poor people in my state has not substantially changed. Third biggest economy in PPP terms and so on massages the pride a bit, but at the end of the day, India is a desperately poor, third world country. A majority of our population does not have clean drinking water and toilets. Leave alone the poor, even the rich dont have access to clean water. The other day, one of my cousins contacted typhoid, which as you may know, spreads from contamination of food usually water, by fecal matter. She lives in a state capital and belongs to the top 1% strata of Indian society.
Was somehow expecting this logic to crop up somewhere...So, if the Siachen deployment wasnt there, all these states would be overflowing with water. If we didnt have a standing army itself, even more money could have been saved!

By this logic, INC should be wound up today since they have gobbled up ~100,000 crores within hardly 3 years of UPA-2. That could have helped the BIMARU states develop to world-class standards!!
And I was expecting a retort along these silly lines. Everything I have said in the paragraph above is factual. For a person who does not have a respectable place to take a dump, or access to clean drinking water, Siachen will not matter. Unfortunately, a majority of Indians are still poor, so if we can save some money/energy somewhere and better their lot, we should try to do so, to the best of our abilities.

1000 crores and year is 1000 crores an year, its real money. We arent so rich yet that such an amount of money can be wasted. As for INC theivery, sure, recover that as well. Bring in a Jan Lokpal, independent CBI, independent prosecution,.. but the two (INC corruption and money saved on Siachen) arent related.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

Karan M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Agreed, but the primary importance comes from the link with Ladakh. To be sure, I dont recommend any unilateral withdrawal or establishment of a pre Meghdoot situation. Establish a jointly authenticated line along the Saltoro, then demilitarize with regular long range patrols/thinly manned surveillance etc.

Trust, but verify.. :-)

Thanks for the link, Ill read it over.
Sudeep, the Pakistanis dont want to agree to any joint authentication where they are held to have lost Siachen to India.
There should not be any withdrawal without authentication. Ground that has been won by blood on the ground, deserves at least a line on paper.
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