Siachen News & Discussion

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srin
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by srin »

rohitvats wrote: PA would have wanted to exploit this situation and create local superiority in troop ratios. NH-1A was the shortest route to induct troops from the Kashmir Valley and PA ensured that by it remained volatile itself. When sufficient troops were sucked into this sector, PA could have launched the piece-de-resistance in Siachen.

IMO, the violent Indian response and pressure from International Community (when they saw India was dead serious) forced the PA hand in localizing the conflict. By this time, PA had already played the Mujaheddin bogey.
Nice analysis - the implication escaped me altogether.

Curious - if that was their aim, what prevented PA from following through with an offensive in Siachen when troops were indeed sucked into Dras and Kargil ?

Did we push troops from the plains or the China front and not thin out northern Ladakh ? Or did they underestimate the size of the force required to take Siachen ?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

sum wrote:Love this scene...
The scum who sat there thinking that the SDREs wont be able to dislodge them deserved this kind of nightmare death where they are abandoned and under 24x7 shellings and explosions around them. Truely got a glimpse of Jahhanum on earth before they met their 72.
In Najam Sethi's interview on Affair-Kargil, one interesting thing emerged, Pakis found our abandoned bunker stocked with Ammo, food and warm clothing which they used to their best advantage... Pakis are experts at exploiting hospitality even the accidental one.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

rohitvats wrote:That article linked by Chaanakya is quite revealing actually.

And to me it answers one very important point which remained unsolved as far as I am concerned - blocking NH 1A with the objective of choking supply lines to Leh and Siachen never made any sense to me. For it is not as if Siachen/Leh garrisons needs to be supplied every day to keep them going. You have the stocking in place plus there are two other means of resupply - the Manali-Leh Road and airlift capability of IAF. Then how were Pakistanis going to make Indian positions in Siachen untenable?

However, now when you read this - "the intrusion was clearly intended to dominate the supply line to Siachen and cut off the glacier for an invasion by Pakistani troops" - things become abundantly clear. This statement actually blows the lid of the bigger plan by PA. And BTW - Siachen here would mean area between Turtok in south (along Shyok) and northern most point of the Siachen.

The whole exercise was a grab at Siachen - they were doing to India what we tried to do to them in 1987 - Operation Brass-tacks. Basically, Operation Brasstacks was to fix the PA in the plains while IA made dash for POK - and that too, in the dead of the winter. The operation to grab POK was called Operation Trident and involved IA airlifting 6 Mountain Division to Leh. Mobilization in the plains would have meant that PA could not expand the conflict as we were ready and waiting.

From a military perspective, the PA plan could have been the following:

(a) Dominate NH-1A. This itself would have multiple implications.

(b) Disrupt movement of Indian troops along the highway and prevent reinforcements from adjoining sectors being rushed into the area. This was important as these troops were acclimatized and best suited to reinforce the sector.

(c) PA was basically, 'fixing' the IA in the Kargil sector while the real hammer fell in the Siachen area. This can explain relatively less amounts of troops being used in Kargil - they would have required troops and reserves for Siachen sector.

(d) If one reads the account of situation as obtained before Kargil was detected, the entire Leh Sector was devoid of any worthwhile reserves. The disposition of troops was as follows:
------------121 (I) Infantry Bde (3 x Infantry Battalions + 1 x BSF Battalion) was responsible for area south of Turtok to Kaobal Gali
------------102 Infantry Bde - 3 x Infantry Battalions - South of Turtok to entire Siachen and DBO Complex.
------------114 Infantry Bde - East Ladakh against China.
------------70 Infantry Bde - 1 x Infantry Battalion - Only Reserve for Ladakh.

PA would have wanted to exploit this situation and create local superiority in troop ratios. NH-1A was the shortest route to induct troops from the Kashmir Valley and PA ensured that by it remained volatile itself. When sufficient troops were sucked into this sector, PA could have launched the piece-de-resistance in Siachen.

IMO, the violent Indian response and pressure from International Community (when they saw India was dead serious) forced the PA hand in localizing the conflict. By this time, PA had already played the Mujaheddin bogey.
Did Pakis have the required troops on ground to take on Siachen? Did the IAF sorties in the region as well as the BAI/BAS undertaken (Mutho Dhalo camp destruction) etc pull the mat from under Pakis feet? International Pressure (don't give much credence to this)? Possible Indian Threat to widen the conflict in other areas made Pakis wary?

Basically I thought the PA was spread way tooo thin across the IB/LOC to be able to mount a significant assault on any particular sector unless they had re-deployed ARN/ARS for this? What was the Paki ORBAT Vis-a-vis IA's during Kargil?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by srin »

Going through the AeroIndia 2011 session on high altitude helicopter requirements, something struck me on the Siachen peess talks.

India's Siachen logistics is going to have a quantum jump. We're getting C-17's which will significantly increase the amount of cargo you can ferry to THOISE. We're getting lot of Mi-17s for ferrying cargo to Base camp. And we're getting Dhruvs with Shakti engines that can carry 600 Kgs per sortie to 21000 ft (compared to 20kgs with Cheetahs). Which means - our high altitude posts can be equipped with heavier arms and lot more munitions.

But we aren't done yet - we're going to have Rudras and later on, LCHs and both are designed for high altitude requirements. The 20mm cannon is the least that they have.

So - in case the Siachen ceasefire ceases, Pakistan is going to be in very bad position. So, they are trying to cut their losses. In the best case (if the gullible Govt buys into the aman-ki-basha) they would have knocked Indians off the glacier and can link with China till the Karakoram pass. After all, what have they got to lose ?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

^^^ what about Arty, can IA deploy medium arty on the ridgelines? I presume an ALH MKIII can lift an 130mm arty to Siachen?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Shrinivasan wrote:^^^ what about Arty, can IA deploy medium arty on the ridgelines? I presume an ALH MKIII can lift an 130mm arty to Siachen?
There is nothing which can allow you to deploy arty on the ridge line. Also, what advantage will you get out it? BTW, 130mm weights in excess of 7 tons.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vipul »

I have a query Gurus, Saw a Pakistani talk show on Siachen and was thinking had the war resulted in more fronts getting opened how well was the Army equipped? All our Bofors Guns (working and canibalised to assemble 125+ in working conditions) were concentrated just in the Siachen Theater. We also did not have enough artillery shells and had to do an emergency air-lift from Israel and Russia, we did not have Smerch or the Upgunned M46 then and Pakistan had a big edge in long range guns and rockets. I know war does not mean just a long range artillery duel but does still plays the big role in sanitising the front for advancing the armoured/infantry movement so want to know how would it have played out on multiple fronts?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

we had more than 125 guns - but even the full 400 are not enough as we concentrated them in the mountains

what would have happened is we would take more casualties to arty (especually where we were outranged) till either air or some other counter attack put them out of business.

rohit can answer better
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vipul »

There were news reports that due to shortage of parts due to embargo on Bofors less then half of the 400 Guns were in working condition.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Dear rohit, Kaiser tufail in his article has clearly recorded Pakistan army's intention of capturing siachen in the winters.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

rohit..i dont personally agree that the aim was to capture Siachen militarily. I think Mushy/ 4 Gens had enough brains to know that Siachen has alternate routes of resupply via Leh and the Air support. Given the terrain of the approaches from Paki side, u can only bring so many troops into action to attack Indian positions on the Siachen heights.

The assumptions was IMHO that once PA captures the positions, there will be international intervention. Kargil would be reverse Siachen. PA will sit on the dominating heights and we will be forced to negotiate on Siachen and Kashmir with a gun on our head. Surprise was the weapon in Kargil , there would be no such surprise if they were to attack Siachen ?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

i think PA had realized the futility of frontal attacks in Siachen. Kargil was their reverse Siachen. If IA did Siachen on PA , PA does a Kargil on IA...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

when war starts or mobilization occurs like Parakaram

all sort of parts get ordered through hook or crook :mrgreen:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

and there was no movement of any PA formations into the conflict zone/siachen as it would have been noticed by Indian intel. the formations which were local to the area were used in Kargil. there was no movement of infantry/artillery into the said area...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Vipul wrote:I have a query Gurus, Saw a Pakistani talk show on Siachen and was thinking had the war resulted in more fronts getting opened how well was the Army equipped? All our Bofors Guns (working and canibalised to assemble 125+ in working conditions) were concentrated just in the Siachen Theater. We also did not have enough artillery shells and had to do an emergency air-lift from Israel and Russia, we did not have Smerch or the Upgunned M46 then and Pakistan had a big edge in long range guns and rockets. I know war does not mean just a long range artillery duel but does still plays the big role in sanitising the front for advancing the armoured/infantry movement so want to know how would it have played out on multiple fronts?
Vipul - there are couple of interleaving points at play here.

The movement and concentration of troops in the Kargil Sector was done with the express understanding that India will not cross the LOC nor will it expand the conflict in other areas (like we did in Lahore in 1965). Yes, we had put in place measures to ensure that we were not caught off-guard anywhere else. For example, 6 Mountain Division (which is AHQ reserve) was stationed just south of Zoji La pointing at POK primed for offensive action. This meant PA could not afford to thin troops for Kargil Sector. Also, General Malik in his book on Kargil mentions that all IA formations (especially, Strike Formations) were on couple of days stand-by to cater to larger conflict, if required.

Given the above background, IA had moved Bofors guns into the sector to achieve the laid down directive from political leadership. This was a calculated move. Had the plan been to NOT restrict ourselves to Indian side of LOC, the plans would have been different.

Having said that, only FOUR Medium Regiments of Bofors were inducted from outside - this would amount to 72 odd guns. And for plains, 130 mm guns would have done just fine. IA has never been short of guns - what we have lacked is guns of Bofors type and their modern variants.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Aditya G wrote:Dear Rohit, Kaiser Tufail in his article has clearly recorded Pakistan army's intention of capturing Siachen in the winters.
AG - my assessment is based purely on that single line of statement made by PA General and what I remember off the cuff. I must admit that I've not done any detailed analysis of the possibility of the same. For example, it would be really interesting to see the number of battalions used in Kargil and in holding under the Brigades of FCNA. After all, the plan of using in-situ forces with FCNA was conceived to not alert Indian about any operation. So, from where were troops going to be used for Siachen operations? However, it is quite possible that when PA says Siachen, it does not mean Saltoro Ridge per-se - but outflanking maneuver along the Shyok towards Nubra.

Time permitting, I will do a cross reference of books and notes on me on the subject.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

manjgu wrote:and there was no movement of any PA formations into the conflict zone/siachen as it would have been noticed by Indian intel. the formations which were local to the area were used in Kargil. there was no movement of infantry/artillery into the said area...
I agree with all your point above...the post was more on the lines of 'thinking-out-aloud'.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

A Glacial Intent
Gen Aziz’s expose ensures one thing: no troop-free Siachen


http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?283853

nothing new for us but


oh shukla and kanwal and other track 2 wonders

where are thou?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

^ Gurmeet Kanwal uwacha from above
"While the demilitarisation of the Siachen conflict zone is doable, the political climate is not right at present,” he told Outlook. “The government cannot afford to alienate people during an election year.”
right, after the election if Congress comes to power again these rats will be up in full steam to take the country down in gutter.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vipul »

So what is driving this Kanwal Asshole? Is it money, past misdeeds, honeytrap, or the false pride of being intellectual and progressive person taking a contrarian stance?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Reminds of an earlier post by me:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1278586

Considering that there is hardly any population in Siachen, that means nothing.
Who are the people who don't stay here and 'feel alienated'?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Gagan »

Indrajit wrote:I've already posted the interview of Late Gen.Jamshed Gulzar Kiyani on Kargil,he says the same thing,can view it on Youtube,part 3 onwards,also Najam Sethi Bares it all.
Here is that full interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO8baAOIK0Q

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23629 »

Vipul wrote:So what is driving this Kanwal Asshole? Is it money, past misdeeds, honeytrap, or the false pride of being intellectual and progressive person taking a contrarian stance?
What is surprising is how easy it is to subvert Indians and how many of them are willing to take a position against national interest on the bidding of forces hostile to India. In contrast, not a single Pakistani exists who says Pakistan should reconcile to India's control of Siachen because not a blade of grass grows there. There is a clear lack of nationalism among Indians and they give priority to their personal ambitions and profit over the nation. No wonder, they keep losing their freedoms to invaders. Indians like Kanwal will not be interested in protecting their freedoms because of their greed, but they won't mind sending their women to the beds of invaders once the country is occupied as long as they can extract something out of it. Truly, these people are the scums India has produced.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

Notice the arrogance in that scum kanwal's statement. He knows what he is dreaming is against the nation's will. He is worrying for Congress, he doesnt want to hurt their election chance by pursuing the siachen agenda in the election year. But for him it is perfectly okay to do what is wants to do once the election is over. So basically use people to get their vote and then show them a big middle finger! He is openly saying that..see the daring of this asshole.

In short say goodbye to Siachen if congress comes to power.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ I personally am not for name calling of ex-IA folks but the kind of wierd and arrogant statements of Brig Kanwal really seem to be pushing the limit.

This is the best statement ( sellout wont happen due to elections but might happen after it) he can come up with for giving a view on Op-Badr of TSP??
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

Vipul wrote:So what is driving this Kanwal Asshole? Is it money, past misdeeds, honeytrap, or the false pride of being intellectual and progressive person taking a contrarian stance?
I think its money, specifically US government money. The US has a very money-oriented foreign-policy system, working through lobbyists, fixers, channeling funds to lawmakers, officials, journalists, opinion formers, academics, etc. Its just the way they work, and it is well understood.

Obviously some people in India also get tempted by their cash, and they probably reckon "what the hell, I get paid some $ for just talking sh*t, and its not like anyone gives a damn about the sh*t I talk , so I'll take the $, and let those who have to make decisions do what they want".
https://csis.org/expert/gurmeet-kanwal
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Ret’d.) is a Delhi-based adjunct fellow with the Wadhwani Chair at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, D.C. Until recently, he was director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS) in New Delhi (January 2008–March 2012).
https://csis.org/about-us
Since 1962, CSIS has been dedicated to finding ways to sustain American prominence and prosperity as a force for good in the world.
Go figure .... :)
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

<SELF DELETED>
Last edited by rohitvats on 13 Feb 2013 23:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by srin »

Wow - great catch RV saar ...

And - I should have checked before, but didn't till I saw the idiotic article on missiles - guess who is on the executive council of IDSA and can directly influence the defence minister ?

From http://www.idsa.in/executivecouncil
SP Tyagi
Air Chief Marshal Shashindra Pal Tyagi was the 20th Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (2004-07). Previously, he had the distinction of commanding the three Air Commands -- Central, South Western and Western Air Command. He excelled himself during the 1965 and 1971 wars. He also served as the Defence attaché at the Indian Consulate in Saudi Arabia; Director Operations (Air Defence), ACAS (Intelligence) and ACAS (Ops).
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

hello Shaurya

where art thou :)

on a diff note

we are so fvcked - am sure everyone and their uncle has dossiers on all our babus, politicos and now top military men
sighh
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23629 »

srin wrote:Wow - great catch RV saar ...

And - I should have checked before, but didn't till I saw the idiotic article on missiles - guess who is on the executive council of IDSA and can directly influence the defence minister ?

From http://www.idsa.in/executivecouncil
SP Tyagi
Air Chief Marshal Shashindra Pal Tyagi was the 20th Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (2004-07). Previously, he had the distinction of commanding the three Air Commands -- Central, South Western and Western Air Command. He excelled himself during the 1965 and 1971 wars. He also served as the Defence attaché at the Indian Consulate in Saudi Arabia; Director Operations (Air Defence), ACAS (Intelligence) and ACAS (Ops).
Do these greedy generals and air chiefs realize that by taking bribes from foreign companies, they are giving CIA and other intelligence agencies enough fodder to blackmail with threats of exposure -- the spooks just have to send a CD to a media channel, and game over. These agencies will keep leaking info about bribes to media as and when it suits them. Greed has become the main enemy of Indians.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Can we put a list of all Track Two Traitors in one place and see their past and current engagements.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Mihir »

*poof!*
Last edited by Mihir on 14 Feb 2013 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Please discuss corruption issues in the right thread. Thanks, ramana
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Mihir »

Surya wrote:to be fair to tyagi (else Mihir will scold me :) )
When have I ever... :cry:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I don't think so. Them being involved in Siachen discussions in incidental.
For now I think ACM Tyagi is not involved but his name was used to funnel money.

Anyway a whole thread is there and it really has the details as they unfolded.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I guess I was wrong. And looking gor a silver lining in the dark cloud of the chopper scam!
abhishek_sharma wrote:Coomi Kapoor's Column

...
Dialogue on hold

The Ottawa Dialogue is a back-channel diplomatic exercise for retired Indian and Pakistani military officials and diplomats and is funded by the USA, UK and Canada. Usually, there are some 20 participants from each side and they debate defence issues from conventional CBMs to the Siachen dispute. The Ottawa Dialogue has held conferences in a number of cities. The most recent meeting was scheduled for New Delhi, but there is a hitch. Former air chief S P Tyagi heads the India chapter and is being investigated in the AgustaWestland helicopter deal. As a consequence, the Ottawa Dialogue has been temporarily put on hold.
.....
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RamaY »

^ Assuming SPT is so important to track2, why is he thrown under the bus in Agusta deal, even if we assume he is deeply involved in both deals?

Is it because Agusta came very close to family?
Is it because people who are not happy with his Siachen meddling wanted him under the bus?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

RamaY wrote:^ Assuming SPT is so important to track2, why is he thrown under the bus in Agusta deal, even if we assume he is deeply involved in both deals?

Is it because Agusta came very close to family?
Is it because people who are not happy with his Siachen meddling wanted him under the bus?
Probably (A).
Track 2 is mostly MMS's jhappi-pappi initiative. Madam G wouldn't think twice before choosing between upsetting MMS and brushing Nehru-Gandhi parivar's misdeeds under the carpet.
Far higher prices have been paid earlier in similar episodes e.g. when a serving Foreign Minister (Natwar Singh) - a known Gandhi loyalist for decades - was made the scape goat for Oil for Food scam where INC was listed as a beneficiary. What weight does a retd Air Chief carry in comparison?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

RamaY wrote:^ Assuming SPT is so important to track2, why is he thrown under the bus in Agusta deal, even if we assume he is deeply involved in both deals?

Is it because Agusta came very close to family?
Is it because people who are not happy with his Siachen meddling wanted him under the bus?
Augusta deal is way too small for a major political chain to be involved beyond the bureaucracy and defense leadership. However, the Augusta deal is just the tip of the ice berg. The major scams are not in defense procurement for the defenses, it is all the sundry procurements from services to supplies. It is a corrupt place all through and through. It is a well known open secret.

ACM Tyagi is toast, because he has been caught as simple as that. His leadership on Siachen talks was token. I guess the way Delhi works, they may actually let ACM Tyagi off the hook due to honor et al of services, but then he will have to stay below the radar forever. If this government really cares for the services, it should send a message and book him, if guilty. But going by the Adarsh scam, do not have hopes here.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

RamaY wrote:^ Assuming SPT is so important to track2, why is he thrown under the bus in Agusta deal, even if we assume he is deeply involved in both deals?

Is it because Agusta came very close to family?
Is it because people who are not happy with his Siachen meddling wanted him under the bus?
Augusta deal is way too small for a major political chain to be involved beyond the bureaucracy and defense leadership. However, the Augusta deal is just the tip of the ice berg. The major scams are not in defense procurement for the defenses, it is all the sundry procurements from services to supplies. It is a corrupt place all through and through. It is a well known open secret.

ACM Tyagi is toast, because he has been caught as simple as that. His leadership on Siachen talks was token. I guess the way Delhi works, they may actually let ACM Tyagi off the hook due to honor et al of services, but then he will have to stay below the radar forever. If this government really cares for the services, it should send a message and book him, if guilty. But going by the Adarsh scam, do not have hopes here.
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