Siachen News & Discussion

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Philip
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

A Chance to Unfreeze the Standoff on the Glacier

(The US viewpoint,always for India to bow to Paki pressure.)

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/201 ... e-glacier/

By MARK MCDONALD
| April 8, 2012, 3:19 am 6
A Pakistani military unit camped on the Siachen Glacier in 1999.Barry Bearak/The New York Times (Courtesy of the Pakistan Military)A Pakistani military unit camped on the Siachen Glacier in 1999.

The scale of the avalanche disaster in Pakistan could well renew a debate about the costly deployments of Indian and Pakistani military units on the Siachen Glacier, a place so high, cold and forbidding that it is sometimes called “the third pole.” Leaders from both countries met Sunday in New Delhi, with the glacier as a possible talking point.
HONG KONG — The search for 135 people buried under an avalanche in Pakistan resumed at first light on Sunday.

The avalanche struck a Pakistani military camp early Saturday morning, trapping 124 soldiers and 11 civilians under 70 feet of snow. Despite 18 hours of searching on Saturday, no survivors were found, as my colleagues Declan Walsh and Salman Masood reported.

The scale of the looming disaster is likely to renew the debate about the costly deployments of Indian and Pakistani military units on the Siachen Glacier, a place so high, cold and forbidding that it is sometimes called “the third pole.”

Political and military analysts say there’s nothing much up there — besides rock and ice — to fight over.

Stephen P. Cohen, a South Asia expert and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, has famously compared the Siachen standoff to “a struggle of two bald men over a comb,” calling it “the epitome of the worst aspects of the relationship” between Indian and Pakistan.

The avalanche, for all the worries over its possible outcome, could offer the chance for a small diplomatic breakthrough on Sunday: President Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan was due to meet over lunch in New Delhi with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India.

With units deployed on the Siachen Glacier at elevations as high as 22,000 feet, it’s hard to breathe, let alone fight. In 2000, in Kashmir, I interviewed an Indian Army commander who had served on Siachen, and he said that about a third of his men suffered from altitude sickness, frostbite or other environmental ailments. Units were in nearly constant rotation, he said, due to the hardships.

Pakistan has promised to give most-favored-nation trading status to India, and in a Brookings commentary in December, Mr. Cohen said “it is now up to India to respond, perhaps on some issue such as Siachen or Sir Creek.”

Sir Creek is a disputed boundary waterway between the two countries that a Dawn newspaper editorial called “easily the most negotiable lingering disconnect between Pakistan and India.”

“This may not happen,” Mr. Cohen said, “but if it does, then will Pakistan in turn reciprocate, leading to a genuine peace process? I’m both hopeful and skeptical at the same time.”

“The Siachen glacier and the mountain ranges surrounding it have very little strategic significance,” said a retired Indian Army brigadier, Gurmeet Kanwal, in a commentary for the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in New Delhi. “Therefore, the continued military occupation of the area by both India and Pakistan is counterproductive and is a retrograde step for pursuing a genuine rapprochement process.”

Declan and Salman, in reporting about the Pakistani military’s frantic search for survivors, offered this background:

Troops from both countries have been stationed at Siachen since April 1984, when the Indian Army occupied the heights around the glacier. Pakistan responded within weeks by sending in its troops, and both sides exchanged artillery barrages.

Despite occasional skirmishes, the area has been relatively quiet since a cease-fire in 2003, with Indian forces dominating many of the higher positions. Critics in both countries say their militaries are wasting millions of dollars a year on a futile standoff that has more to do with national ego than military value.

The Siachen dispute is part of the broader conflict over Kashmir, which is at the core of the strains between India and Pakistan that have led to three major wars since 1947.

Brigadier Kanwal has long favored a withdrawal of both armies:

“The demilitarization of the Siachen conflict zone will act as a confidence-building measure of immense importance.

“For India, it is a low-risk option to test Pakistan’s long-term intentions for peace,” he said. “It is, therefore, an idea whose time has come. Indian and Pakistani leaders need to find the political will necessary to accept ground realities. Trust begets trust and it will be well worth taking a political and military risk to give peace a chance.”
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by atreya »

What is this new concept of Siachen NOT being strategically important? I thought occupying Siachen was important to prevent a link up between Pakistan and China. I am surprised because even Brig Kanwal maintains Siachen is without strategic significance!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

atreya wrote:What is this new concept of Siachen NOT being strategically important? I thought occupying Siachen was important to prevent a link up between Pakistan and China. I am surprised because even Brig Kanwal maintains Siachen is without strategic significance!
This has been WKK and western/ chinese sponsored programme for years, throw in the odd Brigadier's comment. Occupying Siachen is causing a lot of takleef to Pakis and Chinese, so IA should vacate Siachen. unfortunately, these guys have some connections with India's Political elite of all colours.

P.S - I think charity starts at home, so entire Lutyens and South Mumbai should be allotted to Slum Dwellers first.

We need to face the fact that no power on earth takes us seriously because all of them have enough contacts in the levers of power in India.
atreya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by atreya »

I met Brig Kanwal at a military psychology conference and was impressed by his straightforwardness and he seemed to be a level headed, intelligent soldier. Surprising to see him commenting like this
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Also, have the Indian(including Brig Kanwal) and American commentators considered the ideological implications of India conceding something to Pakistan, as well as the great sacrifice made by India to keep Siachen within India, and out of Pakistan. Why should India withdraw, after all these years and sacrifices. And what precisely are they suggesting India do?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Kunal Verma Sir, I have your boook on Siachen...must say, it is a visual treat and helps one understand and appreciate the geography.
Cain Marko
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

If India and Pakistan cannot solve a dispute over a chunk of ice that is of little strategic value, asks Jalil Abbas Jilani, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry spokesman and one of the key diplomats in talks with India, "then how can we fix more complex issues like Kashmir?"
Since it is no more than a "chunk of ice" why doesn't TSP simply unilaterally withdraw and let India have it? Can't believe chootiya media wallas are actually clamoring for this. Bloody lifafa journos are a disgrace.
tejas
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by tejas »

India should gracefully let the Poak soldiers withdraw without firing a shot. Just think how the money saved could build so many more mosques and madrassas. In fact to not withdraw is to be unislamic.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Disaster Reignites Debate Over Battle at Earth’s Ceiling
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/world ... .html?_r=1
The battalion’s fate drew an anguished reaction across Pakistan and swung a spotlight onto an often-forgotten corner of the 65-year-old conflict over Kashmir, the disputed mountain territory that lies at the emotional heart of the conflict with India. And it reinvigorated an incendiary question: Is Siachen, a glacier on Kashmir’s northern edge, worth fighting over? “It is time for both countries to step back from this madness,” said Mehmood Shah, a retired army brigadier who was once involved in talks to end the standoff. “Every day, people die in this conflict. Going on is in nobody’s interest.” Many critics echoed that view, describing the conflict as a pointless and sinfully expensive battle for a piece of Himalayan real estate that, while stunningly beautiful, is unfit for human habitation. About 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have died at Siachen since 1984, of whom about 90 percent perished from weather-related causes,( 3k Poaqsx72hoor causing heat ,snow melt and enviorenmental pollution)said the Pakistani military spokesman, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas. Military analysts estimate the deployment costs Pakistan $5 million a month; Indian costs are higher still because of higher troop numbers and because supplies are transported by helicopter. Still, many military strategists and security hawks in both countries insist the fight must go on. In any peace negotiation with Pakistan, wrote Vikram Sood, a former chief of Indian intelligence, Siachen should be the “last issue on the table, not the first.”
The effort is now focused on burrowing a 130-foot tunnel toward the troop barracks, where soldiers were sleeping when the avalanche hit. Ominously, the army has already released pictures of those inside: mostly soldiers in their 20s, wearing green berets and striped neck-scarves. Few Pakistanis dare hope any will emerge alive; as many see it, the mountain has won yet again. Major Khan’s appetite vanished, causing him to shed 37 pounds in three months. “You feel you are a caveman, because that’s the way you live,” he said.
During a stint on the front lines in 2003, his job was to send shells whistling toward Indian positions. But the thin air meant shells traveled unpredictably and were prone to buffeting by gusts. The punishing conditions created a strange solidarity with the enemy — who in some areas was just 200 yards away, Major Khan said.
“We could hear each other talking, and we used to exchange greetings at special times — Eid for us, and Diwali for them,” he said, referring to major Muslim and Hindu religious holidays. would be a mistake to see Siachen as the “low-hanging fruit” of the Pakistan-India conflict, said Ejaz Haider of the Jinnah Institute, a research and policy organization based in Islamabad. “Who wants war? Nobody. But if you want peace, you need to prepare for war,” said Mr. Haider, whose brother and father have served in Siachen. “That, unfortunately, is the reality.”
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vinay_D »

Pakistan’s ex-servicemen demand immediate Siachen troop withdrawal
http://www.thenewstribe.com/2012/04/16/ ... 4sludm1Dko
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... l?ITO=1490
Image

A study of the neighbouring Himalayas in 2011 found the rate of ice loss in glaciers - which provide fresh water for around 1.3 billion people - has doubled since the 1980s.

Photos taken by a French satellite show glaciers in a mountain range west of the Himalayas have grown during the last decade.
The growing glaciers were found in the Karakoram range, which spans the borders between Pakistan, India and China and is home to the world's second highest peak, K2.
The startling find has baffled scientists and comes at a time when glaciers in other parts of the region, and across the world, are shrinking.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Demilitarisation of the Siachen Conflict Zone: Challenges and Prospects
The death of about 150 Pakistani army personnel in an avalanche at the battalion HQ at Gyari in the Siachen conflict zone has once again brought to the fore the dangers of the continuing deployment on both sides of the Actual Ground Position Line despite the fact that an informal cease-fire has been holding up quite well since November 25, 2003. Earlier, in mid-March 2007 also five Pakistani soldiers had perished in an avalanche.

Even at the peak of fighting in the 1980s and 1990s, maximum casualties on both the sides occurred because of the treacherous terrain, the super high altitude – which affects the human body adversely, and the extreme weather. The lack of oxygen at heights between 18,000 and 20,000 feet and prolonged periods of isolation are a lethal combination and result in pulmonary oedema, frostbite and other serious complications. Besides, prolonged deployment at such heights takes a heavy psychological toll. While these casualties are now better managed due to early evacuation, improvements in medical science and the establishment of forward medical facilities, they can never be completely eliminated.

The economic cost of maintaining an infantry brigade group at Siachen to guard the desolate super-high altitude mountain passes and approaches leading to them from the western slopes of the Saltoro Ridge has been estimated to range between Rs 3.0 to 3.5 crore per day – Rs 1,000 to 1,200 crore annually. The costs are high because the logistics tail is long, the only road ends at the Base Camp close to the snout of Nubra river where the almost 80-km glacier ends and a large number of infantry posts can be maintained only by light helicopters that air-drop supplies with attendant losses, as recoveries are often less than 50 per cent. The frequent turnover of troops adds to the costs as a battalion can be stationed at the Saltoro Ridge for a maximum of six months.

Though the Pakistanis are relatively better off due to the lower heights on the western spurs of the Saltoro on which their troops are holding defensive positions and their shorter lines of communication to Dansam and Skardu, the weather Gods have been equally unkind to troops on both the sides of the AGPL. Dr. Stephen Cohen, a well-known and respected Washington-based South Asia analyst, has described the Siachen conflict as a fight between two bald men over a comb. In his view, “Siachen… is not militarily important… They (Indian and Pakistani armies) are there for purely psychological reasons, testing each other’s ‘will’.”

Both the sides have been finding it difficult to overcome deeply entrenched negotiation mindsets and are unable to look for innovative and creative approaches. India insists that the present forward positions of both the armies on the Saltoro Range along the AGPL should be demarcated after a joint survey so that there is a reference point in case a dispute arises in future. Pakistan’s position is that by suddenly occupying the Saltoro Range west of the Siachen Glacier, India violated the 1972 Shimla Agreement and must, therefore, undo its “aggression” without insisting on legitimising its illegal occupation through the demarcation of present positions.

After Pakistan’s treachery in Kargil in 1999, the Indian Army’s advice to the government that the AGPL must be jointly verified and demarcated before demilitarisation begins, is operationally sound, balanced and pragmatic military advice. However, if Pakistan’s military capacity to grab and hold on to vacated Indian positions after the demilitarisation agreement comes into effect is carefully analysed, it will be found that Pakistan is in no position to occupy any of the posts vacated by India.

At a recent India-Pakistan Track 2 meeting at Bangkok, organised by the Ottawa University jointly with some think tanks, it was agreed by both the sides that the present military positions should be “jointly recorded and the records exchanged” as a prelude to the disengagement and demilitarisation process. While this falls short of the Indian demand for demarcation, it is a workable via media and should be acceptable.

However, India should insist on building a clause into the demilitarisation agreement that in case of the agreement is violated, both sides reserve the right to take whatever action they deem fit, including offensive military measures. Simultaneously with the withdrawal of its troops from the glacial heights, India should create and maintain suitably structured reserves for counter-action across the LoC at a point of its choosing. These reserves would also be handy for intervention on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) on the border with China should it ever become necessary.

On the completion of the demilitarisation process, an international “Science Park” could be established at Siachen Glacier to promote the study of Himalayan glaciers and to take regular measurements for monitoring climate change. Dr. Saleem Ali of the University of Vermont, USA, the originator of the ides of the Karakoram Peace Park Initiative, has done some seminal work in this regard and both the governments could benefit from his writing and activism. The Siachen Glacier zone could also be opened up for international mountaineering expeditions in a step by step manner as both the militaries gain in confidence in monitoring and verification. International help would be necessary to clean up the environmental damage caused over almost three decades of conflict and the dumping and disposal of warlike stores in the area.

The demilitarisation of the Siachen conflict zone will act as a confidence building measure of immense importance. For India, it is a low-risk option to test Pakistan’s long-term intentions for peace. It is, therefore, an idea whose time has come. Indian and Pakistani leaders need to find the political will necessary to accept ground realities. Trust begets trust and it will be well worth taking a political and military risk to give peace a chance. It is time the Indian government began the process of building a national consensus around this important bilateral measure.

The writer is a Delhi-based defence analyst

Views expressed are personal
An idea who's time has come? An acceptable risk is the opinion of one respected ex Brigadier.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

atreya wrote:I met Brig Kanwal at a military psychology conference and was impressed by his straightforwardness and he seemed to be a level headed, intelligent soldier. Surprising to see him commenting like this
He is certainly straight forward and level headed and hence should learn to heed the advice of these respected men, who have given it all in the service of our nation in or out of uniform. Instead of constantly questioning their credibility (not saying you did that), which really are our own prejudices and biases coming in the way. Not saying we have to agree with them, but this tarnishing of reputations and supposed motivations without proof, should cease.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

ShauryaT wrote:He is certainly straight forward and level headed and hence should learn to heed the advice of these respected men, who have given it all in the service of our nation in or out of uniform. Instead of constantly questioning their credibility (not saying you did that), which really are our own prejudices and biases coming in the way. Not saying we have to agree with them, but this tarnishing of reputations and supposed motivations without proof, should cease.
Arguments from authority have their own problems.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

a exchange of mails with a PA brigadier ( article in dawn.com)..!!! judge for urself ....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- On Sun, 15/4/12, manjgu wrote

Dear Brigadier Sahib,

Thanks for your reply.....

A) If I understood you right, you are making the claim that LOC has been delineated beyond NJ4982 as well . ( when u say whole LOC)

A1) Why does not Pakistan then produce the map in a public fora which has been signed by both India and Pakistan which delineates the whole LOC including beyond point NJ4982 ( and aligned NE till Karakoram Pass) ?

Honestly, I am hearing this for the first time that India and Pakistan have jointly signed and authenticated a map which shows the LOC as claimed by Pakistan ( including beyond NJ4982 going till Karakoram Pass) which would place Siachen glacier in Pakistan.

A2) How come then NJ4982 has become a significant landmark/point in the India/pakistan context if the whole LOC was delineated as per you.


B) the point is not how the line runs TILL NJ4982 but how it runs AFTER/BEYOND NJ4982 !! it is expected to run NORTHWARDS because the text of the agreement says that beyond NJ4982 it will go 'NORTHWARDS'.

Best Regards
manjgu


--- On Sat, 14/4/12, Mahmood Shah <mahmoodshah@mahmoodshah.com> wrote:

From: Mahmood Shah <mahmoodshah@mahmoodshah.com>
Subject: Re: Your article in Dawn ( Siachen)
To: manjgu
Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 10:04 AM

Dear manjgu Sahib,

Thanks for your comments.An agreement between two parties or countries is good as long as both sides agree to abide by it. If one side decides to violate it they can find hundred and one excuses to do so. Regarding the line I will make just two brief points:-
1. The 1972 Simla Agreement was preceded by Suchit Garh negotiations where the complete LOC was marked and maps signed. When maps adjacent to this area that is Kargil Sector exists how come signed map does not exist for this area where half of the area on the same map sheet is accepted as correct by India but not beyond it. And they say we don't have a signed map sheet and don't our one as authentic.
2. This line runs North East for about 15 KM before it reaches NJ9842. By what logic it suddenly turns Due North from this point onward.
Regards
Mahmood Shah

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, wrote:
Dear Brigadier Sahib,

With reference to your article in Dawn....

the LOC was delineated till NJ9842 and thence it was go 'Northwards'. How the LOC was to be aligned ahead of NJ9842 was not marked on any map ( any map which was jointly signed/autheniticated by Pakistan and India).

Pakistan took it North East instead of North and this is where the problem lies. As a military officer you sure do know what is "Northwards' on a map, compass ! I sincerely hope to hear from you clarifying the matter.

Best Regards
manjgu
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Vinay_D wrote:Pakistan’s ex-servicemen demand immediate Siachen troop withdrawal
http://www.thenewstribe.com/2012/04/16/ ... 4sludm1Dko
Who is stopping their own unilateral withdrawal?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

The tone of the article from CLAWS itself is a dead giveaway in terms of what it is trying to put forth - a 'peace' initiative in Siachen which is inherently disadvantageous to India. All this talk about deaths due to weather and per day cost are the usual cliches used to put forth the point about the futility of India maintaining presence in Siachen.

Someone please answer these:

(a) On what basis is the good brigadier saying that PA cannot take IA positions in Siachen? If this was the case, what were the Pakistanis trying to do all these years when they assaulted Indian positions?
(b) Has the good brigadier lost track of the geographical realities of the area? As I explained earlier, the easiest route to Siachen is through Norther Areas. From Ghyari to Bilafond La to central glacier. This is the historic trade route between Northern Areas and Yarkand. So, is not easier for PA to roll into Siachen through Bilafond La?
(c) Gyong La is the entry route (although difficult) into base of Siachen and PA occupation of the same threatens the village of Dzingrulma and thence, the Nubra Valley itself. Are we ready to compromise the security of entire sector north of Khardung La based on a piece of paper signed by Pakees? Have we not had enough already?
(d) If Siachen in such a worthless area, why don't the Pakees just fold up and go? Or do they think we can outflank their defenses further south along the LOC by taking the very same route through which they intend to go up?

(e) And finally, all this talk of the maintaining a reserve to launch offensive action in case PA occupies Siachen is down-right idiotic. Why? For a simple reason that we'll never have a political leadership with enough guts to launch offensive actions over Siachen. When we never moved in case of 26/11 to stalled Op Parakram because of ever present arguments of economic stability/america in neighborhood/nuclear black-mail/china, what makes people think that we'll resort to show of arms in case of PA perfidy in Siachen?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

It seems that Brigadier Gurmeet has been part of the "Study Groups" advocating demilitarization of Siachen for some time now.

Here is a link to a detailed presentation on the subject by him:

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 7cI5foj3AA

Please do have a look at the sponsors on the first slide of the ppt.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Wow, if it wasnt for the PPT mentioning Brig Kanwal, would have thought that IKG or some known WKK had created it going by the huge "Give Peace a Chance", "Trust TSP", "Take Bold decisions" etc in the final slides.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by merlin »

This thing has push - even Bharat Karnad who jingos on this forum think is a jingo is all for pappi-jhappi with Pakistan. Sure as hell there are others and looks like the numbers are building up.

Looks like something's afoot.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by arunsrinivasan »

Politically, I dont think MMS / UPA can make any concession to TSP & get away with it. I think they are too weak at the moment. The opposition & the media hype can stop any concession ... at least I hope so ;)
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by merlin »

Well the media hype will be geared towards supporting the concession and not opposing it so...

The BJP types haven't given be any confidence (based on their weak response to the GoI wanting to sack the general) on being on India's side in terms of any concessions with respect to TSP so...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

merlin wrote:Well the media hype will be geared towards supporting the concession and not opposing it so...

The BJP types haven't given be any confidence (based on their weak response to the GoI wanting to sack the general) on being on India's side in terms of any concessions with respect to TSP so...
Only Brijesh Mishra has asked for it, rest like N Modi have been extremely critical of Govt handling of Miltary relations unnecessary escalation of matters from Govt side. Nobody else has asked for his dismissal, it was only unammed BJP sources supposedly giving certificates for UPA for honesty- we know how reliable they are.

Iresspective of BJP stand, it will be spun that BJP is in favour of Siachen withdrawal.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

We captured and returned Haji Pir pass in 1965. In both wars, India occupied more Pakistani land that Pakistan occupied from India and we returned.

Those concessions does not earn India any dividend today. Anyone talking demilitarization of Siachen should be asked whether return of Haji Pir Pass stopped infiltration by Pakistanis.

Longetivity of regime, continuation of policy, honour of commitment are non-existant concepts in Pakistan. There is no guarantee that the succeeding regimes in Pakistan would honour a commitment made by a previous regime.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Yayavar »

I glanced at the proposal...seems to be built on hope that Pakis will be honest. Talks about opening another front (military and economical) if Pakis renege. Have not seen a response to many Paki infractions in recent times. The Infy and other 'bigs' opposed Op. Prakram...so who knows how much support and will a future govt. will have to take on Pakis if the back off. At the same time it is certainly not the best of situation for our soldiers.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ The fact that we seem to still want to keep pakis another chance and keep wanting to believe whatever they are blurting ( with this behavior being spun as Chankian by many) despite the back stabbing umpteen times means we are destined for another jhappad.

Only hope that some IKG type of PM doesnt donate some such "non-stratergic" land in a fit of love ( with complete cheering by the peace loving media and US funded "think-tanks") which will prove costly for the rest of our history..
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by SRoy »

ShauryaT wrote:
atreya wrote:I met Brig Kanwal at a military psychology conference and was impressed by his straightforwardness and he seemed to be a level headed, intelligent soldier. Surprising to see him commenting like this
He is certainly straight forward and level headed and hence should learn to heed the advice of these respected men, who have given it all in the service of our nation in or out of uniform. Instead of constantly questioning their credibility (not saying you did that), which really are our own prejudices and biases coming in the way. Not saying we have to agree with them, but this tarnishing of reputations and supposed motivations without proof, should cease.
One supposes hundreds and thousands of other servicemen that opposes any compromise on Siachen were chopping grasses during their tenure. After all its only few media savvy ex-servicemen chaps that have "served" India.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ManuT »

tsarkar wrote:We captured and returned Haji Pir pass in 1965. In both wars, India occupied more Pakistani land that Pakistan occupied from India and we returned.

Those concessions does not earn India any dividend today. Anyone talking demilitarization of Siachen should be asked whether return of Haji Pir Pass stopped infiltration by Pakistanis.

Longetivity of regime, continuation of policy, honour of commitment are non-existant concepts in Pakistan. There is no guarantee that the succeeding regimes in Pakistan would honour a commitment made by a previous regime.
The loss Haji Pir in 1948 itself is a lesson of Pakistani good intentions where Pakistan moved in to occupy a position (held throughout the 47-48 war by Indians) as Indians moved out from it in a miscalculation just days before 1948 ceasefire took effect. 

Withdrawal Yes, authenticate AGPL Yes.
Last edited by ManuT on 16 Apr 2012 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
SRoy
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by SRoy »

^^

What a pathetic excuse of a nation we are becoming. It has come dowm to tiny bits like Haji Pir pass while no ones talks of PoK anymore.

We don't have the balls to ask them to withdraw from PoK but we are ready to provide them the leverage to decide our own force deployments inside ouu own territories.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

rohitvats wrote:It seems that Brigadier Gurmeet has been part of the "Study Groups" advocating demilitarization of Siachen for some time now.

Here is a link to a detailed presentation on the subject by him:

Please do have a look at the sponsors on the first slide of the ppt.
rohitvats: Thanks for linking the presentation, it details the article well. Attached is tiny url version of the same link. http://tinyurl.com/7a64eju

One thing, it is a well known fact that all these track 2 groups are funded either by the government (CLAWS) or through mostly foreign NGO's. Indian private funds participation is abysmal. They would rather provide $10m for a seat and their name published in Harvard than giving it to organizations such as CLAWS. I know this is a REAL issue. It bothers me too, that not enough private Indian non-governmental funds are available to these organizations but it does not mean, these folks are compromised, even if the influences cannot be denied, I feel they would say what they believe in anyways. The bigger issue actually stems more from government funding rather than foreign funding as it is government funds that limit the degree to which they can critique government policies.

On the rest of your questions, you will have to come up to your own conclusions based on our own read of the facts. I think, what Brig: Gurmeet Kanwal has done is to document and present an overall architecture, for how a controlled non-physical occupation of the Glacier could work.

The question to ask is what is in it for Pakistan? Do we really believe that they have the gumption to spring a total surprise (if India has her eyes and ears wide open) and link up with the Chinese, at the Karakoram pass, as they dream to? As you realize, there is no offensive path into the NA from Siachen and it is a dead end for India. Cannot even jump off Indira point into Shaksgam Valley!

Nothing can move without some trust. Trust does not have to be blind. If there is no appetitive for meaningful politically coordinated offensive actions to control Pakistan then, is not co-option and calibrated steps the next best option?
Last edited by ShauryaT on 16 Apr 2012 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nelson »

SRoy, it has come to that only. I am copying what I posted in the Army thread here. We must certainly withdraw from Siachen heights, ONLY after we take posssession of POK and land ceded to China by Pakistan.

Is it not against the law (ie the Constitution) to suggest giving up the land which is part of the country as per Schedule I?

Alternately, would a PIL to seek order Govt action to reclaim territory as mentioned in Schedule I of the constitution, but under foreign occupation, be maintainable?

Are the ambiguities of Article 370 so wide sweeping that such action is not possible?

For me the best reaction to askance of people wanting India to demilitarise Siachen would be to clamour for Govt action to reclaim territory presently under foreign occupation. This may sound childish but it is a genuine feeling. JMT
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by SRoy »

nelson, that's funny :)

Because after we get back PoK and Aksai Chin, Siachen will cease to matter to anybody outside India.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

nelson wrote:SRoy, it has come to that only. I am copying what I posted in the Army thread here. We must certainly withdraw from Siachen heights, ONLY after we take posssession of POK and land ceded to China by Pakistan.

Is it not against the law (ie the Constitution) to suggest giving up the land which is part of the country as per Schedule I?

Alternately, would a PIL to seek order Govt action to reclaim territory as mentioned in Schedule I of the constitution, but under foreign occupation, be maintainable?

Are the ambiguities of Article 370 so wide sweeping that such action is not possible?

For me the best reaction to askance of people wanting India to demilitarise Siachen would be to clamour for Govt action to reclaim territory presently under foreign occupation. This may sound childish but it is a genuine feeling. JMT
Any compromise on "sovereignty" requires Parliamentary approval. There is a standing 1996 resolution by PVNR administration, on sovereignty of PoK. The only way a government will move is, if the public demands it. I do not want to recount my pains on what happened with this public after 26/11. They voted the same minions back to power!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nelson »

@SRoy
Yes, that is exactly my point. It may be funny, but there are other similar solutions.
"We must remove AFSPA from J&K, ONLY after ensuring non-existence of Pakistan."
"We must not allow the govt of Tibet to function in exile from India, ONLY after installing the same in Lhasa."
...and like.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

SRoy wrote:nelson, that's funny :)

Because after we get back PoK and Aksai Chin, Siachen will cease to matter to anybody outside India.
That is the point. Make the region irrelevant by taking over all the surrounding regions.
Make it expensive for major powers to intervene and make sure that no major country(PRC) can have their military in that region.
This is the long term strategy in my opinion.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

very soon Siachen is going to Pakistan !!

---------------
from: Mahmood Shah <mahmoodshah@mahmoodshah.com>
Subject: Re: Your article in Dawn ( Siachen)
To: "Manj Gu"
Date: Monday, 16 April, 2012, 10:55 AM

Dear Manjgu Sahib,

It has been delineated but not demarcated on ground.The line which is demarcated and delineated is shown by a dot and and a dash like this ._._._ and the area which is only delineated and not demarcated is shown like this.........This is the case in the line before and after NJ9842 on the same map sheet.I strongly recommend that the Pakistan Army puts it across in the media.Or they can give it to me and I will have it published for them.These maps which have grids are for military purposes and are confidential but they can remove the grids and have it published.Maybe I speak to the Pak Army DGMO on the subject in a couple of days.The rest of course is your interpretations and you have all the right to have and express your opinion.

Regards,

Mahmood Shah

------------


Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:48 PM, ManjGu wrote:
Dear Brigadier Sir,

Thanks for your reply.....

A) If I understood you right, you are making the claim that LOC has been delineated beyond NJ4982 as well . ( when u say whole LOC)

A1) Why does not Pakistan then produce the map in a public fora which has been signed by both India and Pakistan which delineates the whole LOC including beyond point NJ4982 ( and aligned NE till Karakoram Pass) ?

Honestly, I am hearing this for the first time that India and Pakistan have jointly signed and authenticated a map which shows the LOC as claimed by Pakistan ( including beyond NJ4982 going till Karakoram Pass) which would place Siachen glacier in Pakistan.

A2) How come then NJ4982 has become a significant landmark/point in the India/pakistan context if the whole LOC was delineated as per you.


B) the point is not how the line runs TILL NJ4982 but how it runs AFTER/BEYOND NJ4982 !! it is expected to run NORTHWARDS because the text of the agreement says that beyond NJ4982 it will go 'NORTHWARDS'.

Best Regards
Manjgu
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Acharya wrote:
SRoy wrote:nelson, that's funny :)

Because after we get back PoK and Aksai Chin, Siachen will cease to matter to anybody outside India.
That is the point. Make the region irrelevant by taking over all the surrounding regions.
Make it expensive for major powers to intervene and make sure that no major country(PRC) can have their military in that region.
This is the long term strategy in my opinion.
You just need some buyers in New Delhi for that! There aren't ANY!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »



This is too good. I had to post this.
While the nation mourns the tragedy, it would be prudent to investigate the cause of this unusual phenomenon. There are military technologies available which can cause artificial avalanches. Pakistan must investigate if Indians or Americans are involved. All possibilities must be probed whether it is an act of God or an act of war!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Jarita »

ShauryaT wrote:
nelson wrote:SRoy, it has come to that only. I am copying what I posted in the Army thread here. We must certainly withdraw from Siachen heights, ONLY after we take posssession of POK and land ceded to China by Pakistan.

Is it not against the law (ie the Constitution) to suggest giving up the land which is part of the country as per Schedule I?

Alternately, would a PIL to seek order Govt action to reclaim territory as mentioned in Schedule I of the constitution, but under foreign occupation, be maintainable?

Are the ambiguities of Article 370 so wide sweeping that such action is not possible?

For me the best reaction to askance of people wanting India to demilitarise Siachen would be to clamour for Govt action to reclaim territory presently under foreign occupation. This may sound childish but it is a genuine feeling. JMT
Any compromise on "sovereignty" requires Parliamentary approval. There is a standing 1996 resolution by PVNR administration, on sovereignty of PoK. The only way a government will move is, if the public demands it. I do not want to recount my pains on what happened with this public after 26/11. They voted the same minions back to power!

Huge media propaganda going on for this.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Jarita wrote: Any compromise on "sovereignty" requires Parliamentary approval. There is a standing 1996 resolution by PVNR administration, on sovereignty of PoK. The only way a government will move is, if the public demands it. I do not want to recount my pains on what happened with this public after 26/11. They voted the same minions back to power!

Huge media propaganda going on for this.
Just a few days ago the terrorists came inside the Kupwara region in Kashmir and had attacked indian forces. And here the media and the politico are talking about compromise on "sovereignty"
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