Won't stop the pukis from trying.ramana wrote:With Modi in Delhi, no more trading Siachen for peace nonsense right?
BJP is starry eyed when it comes to pukeland and the pukis know it
Won't stop the pukis from trying.ramana wrote:With Modi in Delhi, no more trading Siachen for peace nonsense right?
Still too early to say.ramana wrote:With Modi in Delhi, no more trading Siachen for peace nonsense right?
I know Chetak ji, I did not write about the External pilot, internal pilot, observer etc since it would be OT. What it does, is take the pilot out of the cockpit and 'reduces' the pilot centered issues (CAT / IR; other requirements like pilot clearances etc).The drone does not do away with the pilot. It only takes the pilot out of the cockpit and puts him thousands of miles away if it is required to operate that way.
With current level of technology, you still need the qualified pilot.
deejay wrote:I know Chetak ji, I did not write about the External pilot, internal pilot, observer etc since it would be OT. What it does, is take the pilot out of the cockpit and 'reduces' the pilot centered issues (CAT / IR; other requirements like pilot clearances etc).The drone does not do away with the pilot. It only takes the pilot out of the cockpit and puts him thousands of miles away if it is required to operate that way.
With current level of technology, you still need the qualified pilot.
IMO with sufficient power, there are a few helipads, especially close to base camp with rapid climb, in valleys with little space for turn, a rotary wing UAV does offer a good alternative. All this is provided sufficient power in engines of course. This is not to say that it will completely replace the Cheetah at those places. This technology will be developed only if we want. No where else in the world do forces need solutions which we need on the glacier. We need to ask for it if we think it will help.
The cabinet secy needs to get a move on and find out who is responsible for this evilly motivated and purposefully wantonly precipitated crisis.Yogi_G wrote:It has to be watched how this affidavit against Sri VKS goes. His continued presence is required to provide a on-the-ground military perspective to MoD and Prime minister. Siachen needs these practical perspectives and not romanticized ones.
.Using drone helicopters, something like the movie "Three Idiots", thing, should be seriously explored for the siachen region
Proved to be a photoshop farceRecently in Mumbai a company used a similar small drone to deliver a pizza to the top of 30 story building from the pizza outlet about 1.5-2 Kms away.
Good news. Would love to see a whole lot of UAV's and drones in IA/IAF service.rkhanna wrote:.Using drone helicopters, something like the movie "Three Idiots", thing, should be seriously explored for the siachen region
Already in the Pipeline. a SERIOUS number of these UAVs designed and manufactured by IdeaForge have already been contracted to the Armed Forces and Various State Police and Paramilitary Units. (Also on a side note. Despite DRDO putting their "chappa" on this UAV it has nothing to do with the UAV development)
Proved to be a photoshop farceRecently in Mumbai a company used a similar small drone to deliver a pizza to the top of 30 story building from the pizza outlet about 1.5-2 Kms away.
FYI, I read what is available easily and decided its not my place to comment. My opinion remains that while this is a very complex logistics issue, there are no insurmountable technological issues that can not be resolved given decades. Not looking for further discussion, merely noting due diligence.Shreeman wrote:Just an "up" so I dont lose sight of my reading matter, please read past.
Aren't seditious and treasonous actions punisable by death or life with hard labor? How do we tolerate such MC/BCs. Hope these track2 omlette slurping contests are delegitimized and made illegal immediately.Vipul wrote:... the anti-national Ved Pratap says Kashmir does not morally belong to India and that we have forcibly become masters of Kashmiris !!! He openly admits being in regular and direct communication with separatists.
Which regions be these exactly?vishvak wrote:Haven't we won the Siachen debate already? Pakis are nowhere in sight. In fact we should be looking to consolidate by also controlling & administration of regions that pakis can not control in the region. No point in entertaining any party further now.
It was traded for territory opposite Akhnoor which was captured by PA in Operation Grand Slam. Our position was pretty precarious in Akhnoor because loss of Akhnoor would've severed ties with areas lying along LOC like Naushera and Rajauri. It would've also threatened Jammu by opening up a north-west flank of the city to attack from Akhnoor.deejay wrote:From what I know, we captured Haji Pir Pass and gave that up in POK. I have heard from very old soldiers of how their hearts cried out. In effect, what's the point of a military take over if there is no political will?
What is strange is even in 71, inroads were again made by an armored column in this sector - even after 65. This was a localized failure of the IA. Have never understood, why the sequence was allowed to reoccur in 71.rohitvats wrote:It was traded for territory opposite Akhnoor which was captured by PA in Operation Grand Slam. Our position was pretty precarious in Akhnoor because loss of Akhnoor would've severed ties with areas lying along LOC like Naushera and Rajauri. It would've also threatened Jammu by opening up a north-west flank of the city to attack from Akhnoor.deejay wrote:From what I know, we captured Haji Pir Pass and gave that up in POK. I have heard from very old soldiers of how their hearts cried out. In effect, what's the point of a military take over if there is no political will?
Here is a good article on the same:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... e-reality/
Do look up the map in the article and see how close the PA had reached to Akhnoor.
Actually, I read the same article before posting. The point 13620 (Kargil area) was also part of the trade off. If you further investigate you will find that the IA was also close to Lahore and the invasion and capture of Lahore was called off as the ceasefire was imminent and the presumption was that we would hand over the captured territory once the ceasefire was in place.rohitvats wrote:It was traded for territory opposite Akhnoor which was captured by PA in Operation Grand Slam. Our position was pretty precarious in Akhnoor because loss of Akhnoor would've severed ties with areas lying along LOC like Naushera and Rajauri. It would've also threatened Jammu by opening up a north-west flank of the city to attack from Akhnoor.deejay wrote:From what I know, we captured Haji Pir Pass and gave that up in POK. I have heard from very old soldiers of how their hearts cried out. In effect, what's the point of a military take over if there is no political will?
Here is a good article on the same:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... e-reality/
Do look up the map in the article and see how close the PA had reached to Akhnoor.
andEven after the capture of Dograi on 20–21 September no attempt was made to capture Lahore and the main assault on Lahore was not launched because a ceasefire was to be signed in the following couple of days and it was known that the city would have been given back to even if it was captured.[19] By choosing to attack Lahore, the Indians had managed to relieve pressure from Chumb and Akhnoor in Kashmir, forcing the Pakistan Army to defend further south.[1]
andAt the end of hostilities on 23 September India retained Between 140 square miles(War Despatches by Lt. Gen.Harbaksh Singh)and 360 square kilometres(official Indian History of 1965 war) of Pakistani territory in the lahore front including major villages of Bedian,Barki,Padri,Dograi,Bhasin and Ichhogil uttar along the eastern bank of the Ichhogil canal.Pakistan only gained small tract of land in Khem Karan of 52 square kilometres.[20][21]
The war was heading for a stalemate, with both nations holding territory of the other. The Indian army suffered 3,000 battlefield deaths, while Pakistan suffered 3,800. The Indian army was in possession of 710 miles² (1,800 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (550 km²) of Indian territory. The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors,[32] while Pakistani land gains were primarily south in deserts opposite to Sindh and in Chumb sector near Kashmir in north.[33]
Please, Please do not jump on me. When in 65, LB Shastri declared that every inch of our territory would be defended, COAS Choudhary jumped and said, Sir, it is not possible to defend every inch. Localized battle thrusts are a fact of a long border, what I wonder about is why was it allowed to reoccur in the same area in 71, as in 65.deejay wrote:ShauryaT,are you sure it is the IA which failed? Why do you think IA failed?
Since you think I have not seen the map well enough, let me assure you I have seen maps after maps, seen those with my eyes and from ground and from air and the story goes on. That is not important. My argument was and remains the lack of 'Indian Political Will' in terms of any military objective beyond our status quoist position of present borders especially w.r.t. Pakistan and China.Karan M wrote:See the map, place in qn is very hard to defend & easy pickings.
You are welcome Sir.Ajay Sharma wrote:^^
Thanks deejay for sharing the youtube link. Didn't know this film existed. Brings very dear memories and nostalgia for me...
Was able to correlate some titbits with PA list of KIA. This incident is as big as they come, judging by the size of the list here ......in March 1991, when I was posted out to HQ 15 Corps as the Chief of Staff (COS)
....
I recall an incident in the Siachin sector of 3 Inf Div when I was officiating as the Corps Commander. The Divisional Commander, Major General JS Dhillon, reported that a Pak Helicopter had violated our air-space in the central Glacier in the ‘Bahadur Complex’ and recommended that we should engage the helicopter should it repeat the intrusion. I approved the action and asked him to redeploy the ‘Igla’ missile and informed the HQ Northern Command of our plans, as it appeared a deliberate violation. The GOC reinforced the post with an ‘Igla’ missile and undertook suitable measures. The enemy helicopter came again and flew over the post and was engaged. It was shot down, and besides the pilot, we found it also had on board the opposing Brigade Commander and an SO, all of whose bodies were recovered. There was the obvious protest from Pakistan through the DGMO, and the obvious inquiries from the MoD. Since I had already informed the higher HQ of our proposed action, we were on a sound wicket within our agreement of the AGPL.
The helicopter intrusion by Pakistan had been preceded by heavy artillery fire, followed by assaulting infantry. The alertness of the post-commander and the quick retaliation by our artillery and mortar fire not only repulsed the attack, but left many of the enemy dead on the slopes. We allowed the enemy to retrieve their dead, including their Brigade Commander, once such instructions were received from HQ Northern Command and the DGMO. The Indian Army while remaining committed to the defence of the country to the last breath and to the welfare of its fighting force, is also committed to values of honour towards the foe, and this quality is something we should recognise and be proud of.
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Code: Select all
Army No Rank Name Arm/Service Operation Award Formation / Unit Shahadat Date Shahadat Place Shahadat Cause
PA 17325 MAJ Babar Ramzan Arty AIR CRASH SJ 08-01-1992 NOT KNOWN DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PA 17207 MAJ Khalid Sohail Sultan ASC AIR CRASH SJ 08-01-1992 NOT KNOWN DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PA 29397 LT Rana Muhammad Rashed ASC MT ACCIDENT T BT 30/07/1992 NOT KNOWN DIED DUE TO MT ACCIDENT
PA 28878 LT Mirza Neem Ullah Baig Arty Siachen TJ 08-01-1992 SIACHEN GLACIER DIED UE TO FIGHTING IN FACE OF EN
PSS 28495 CAPT Arshad Hamid AK Siachen 08-01-1992 SIACHEN GLACIER DIED DURING EN ACTION
PA 29946 LT Shahid Mahmood Butt AK Siachen 08-01-1992 SIACHIN GLACIER DIED DUE TO ENEMY ACTION
PSS 26317 CAPT Talib Hussain Khan AK Siachen 08-01-1992 SIACHEN GLACIER DIED DUE TO EN ACTION
PA 22284 CAPT Safdar Khan AK Siachen SJ 08-01-1992 SIACHEN GLACIER DIED DUE TO EN ACTIN
PA 17325 MAJ Babar Ramzan Arty AIR CRASH SJ 08-01-1992 NOT KNOWN DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PA 17207 MAJ Khalid Sohail Sultan ASC AIR CRASH SJ 08-01-1992 NOT KNOWN DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PA 10117 BRIG Masood Navid Anwari FF Air Crash SJ HQ FCNA 08-01-1992 Siachin Due to hel crash
2797816 Sep Shakeel Ahmed AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2797031 Nk Mushtaq Ahmed AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN ACTION
2803761 Lnk Muhammad Saddique AK Siachen TJ 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2808194 Sep Farooq Khan AK Siachen TJ 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC Missing Believed Shaheed
2812098 Sep Gul Sawar Khan AK Siachen 23 DIV 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2814044 Sep Fazal Karim AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2814647 Sep Zafar Iqbal AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2815784 Sep Muhammad Qadir AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2793661 Sep Muhammad Mustafa AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 Siachen Glacier DUE TO EN FIRE
2825554 Sep Nafees Ul Haq AK Siachen TJ 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC Missing Believed Shaheed
2821368 Sep Muhammad Ishaq AK Siachen TJ 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2821410 Sep Zafar Iqbal AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2820158 Sep Muhammad Ayub AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2818690 Sep Muhammad Zaheen Khan AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2818831 Sep Muhammad Pervez Khan AK Siachen 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2827546 Sep Faid Muhammad AK Siachen TJ 11 Div 08-01-1992 DUM SUM SEC Missing Believed Shaheed
3057251 GNR Masood Raza Arty Siachen 08-01-1992 Siachen Glacier Killed in action
3070816 DMT Abdul Jabbar Arty Siachen 08-01-1992 Siachen Glacier Killed in en action
3081894 OCU Shahid Sohail Khan Arty Siachen 08-01-1992 Siachen Enemy Action
2823798 Sep Arshad Mehmood AK Siachen 11 Div 08-02-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN FIRE
2798813 Lnk Muhammad Bashir AK Siachen 11 Div 08-02-1992 DUM SUM SEC DUE TO EN ACTION
PSS 21414 CAPT Saadat Ullah Khan AK Siachen 08-02-1992 SIACHEN GLACIER DIED DUE TO EN ACTION
2845839 Sep Saidan Shah NLI BDA FCNA 08-04-1992 Piun Sub Sec Pulmonary Oedema