Siachen News & Discussion

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rohankumaon
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohankumaon »

Hello All - I have searched various newspaper of Canada, Pakistan as well the website of the Atlantic council of Canada and could not find any information on peace treaty. I do not think so that a big treaty like this is signed and now news anywhere. Moreover, if MMS wants to win Noble Peace Prize, this has to come out and should be done with a lot of funfair. I doubt that something like this has happened. By the what is the source of the author? I think I missed it...
Pratyush
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^^

What is the validity of a back room deal that has not been signed by the front room players. Moreover any deal signed by the Indian government that changes the status quo will have to take the opposition in the confidence. In the current political climate that is not going to happen.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vashishtha »

Lets just wait for a moment till this news has been properly validated. As rohankumaon said, if mms wants a peace prize for this then he better create a lot of fanfair.
If this turns out to be true, MMS better pack up his bags and run for his life before the parliament and the public burn him alive because no amount of media manipulation can protect him from such a blunder...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

you need not create a fanfair for nobel peace prize. backdoor diplomacy and agreements (means implement the West policies) are recognized achievements.
rohankumaon
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohankumaon »

abhijitm wrote:you need not create a fanfair for nobel peace prize.
Agreed that you do not need that much funfair but for immediate gain (before 2014) you need to act fast and for that media presence and publishing the agreement would have to take place. Basically you need to popularize this but if this comes into media, backlash from own democratic countrymen would be very hard to digest. Moreover, Indian politics never have worked on foreign politics, so peace agreement with pakistan and thennoble peace prize and then winning the lok sabha election looks bit too far fetched to me.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nakul »

Err... Slight correction. You guys are still living in the 20th century. In the 21st century, the prize is given before the peace deals are signed.

I recommend Smt Sonia Gandhi for the noghanta inaam
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

Its nobel plus reason to visit pakiland for MMS. Looks like his Nov visit to pakistan is well on track afterall.
ShauryaT
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

rohitvats wrote:
He is forewarning the nation about the perfidy of a bunch of thieves and traitors.
Who are you referring to? Spelling it out will help, or it is a broad brush. I have to presume that you are using your words carefully. However, did not understand in what context the word "traitor" has been used. Attached is a link to a law commission report on the matter of traitors.

http://lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/1-50/Report43.pdf
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

^ no need to play with the words and people's sentiments. You perfectly know what his feeling is and I share the same views.
chaanakya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

abhijitm wrote:This is very serious and no news in the media. Absolute silence. Gen. Katoch's reputaion is on the line. Either he is lying or GoI is hinding a very important historic decision (sold out) from the public.
Gen would not have gone public a dn GOI would not have kept quite if not true. Seems truly traitors work
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

ShauryaT wrote:Who are you referring to? Spelling it out will help, or it is a broad brush. I have to presume that you are using your words carefully. However, did not understand in what context the word "traitor" has been used. Attached is a link to a law commission report on the matter of traitors.

http://lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/1-50/Report43.pdf
You posted the article yourself and highlighted this sentence:
The decision to demilitarise, or rather withdraw from Siachen has been taken arbitrarily at the highest political level disregarding strong objections by successive army chiefs including the current chief, General Bikram Singh.
If this decision has actually been taken, as the General seems to think, without taking the parliament and the people into confidence, then those who made that decision can be rightfully called traitors.
PratikDas
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

I guess I should book my flights as part of the Hara Kiri Observation Team. :(
Sagar G
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

This news is either an uber chankian move to pre empt any such move by building pressure on micky mouse or simply false. Congress is not in any kind of position to stage a sellout no matter how so much they want to do so.
member_23370
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Like I said Manmohan or anyone who is stupid enough to recommend this will end up like Najibullah.
Virupaksha
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

Bheeshma wrote:Like I said Manmohan or anyone who is stupid enough to recommend this will end up like Najibullah.
Really!! and how do you suppose that will happen?

I do not believes that any normal Dilli Billi or in power really cares about what happens in Siachen. Did they care when Nehru said, "not a blade of grass grows there". My expectation is, selling this deal in India, with the current "conscience keepers" is not a problem. No party is going to remove its support over Siachen. They will run a few sponsored articles of what happened during Kandahar and try to do an equal-equalitis and be done with it. It was mamata who stopped the giving away of Bengal territory, there was no national ruckus or anything. The difference is the only people directly affected is the Indian army, which rightly or wrongly has always placed its pride in its loyalty to the regime.
member_23370
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

If you think it can be done that easily then you will be in for a surprise.
rohankumaon
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohankumaon »

PratikDas wrote:Congress is not in any kind of position to stage a sellout no matter how so much they want to do so.
Second that Sagar ji! My thoughts exactly
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

A bunch of retired civil servants and military officers (senile or not, sober or drunk) have no authority or ability to commit the Government of India. Authenticate, Delineate and Demarcate has already been stated as the Government of India's position in the Lok Sabha by the Raksha Mantri. Rest all is rubbish.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

rohankumaon wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Congress is not in any kind of position to stage a sellout no matter how so much they want to do so.
Second that Sagar ji! My thoughts exactly
Sorry, that quote makes it appear like I wrote that when Sagar G did. I have much more confidence in Congress' ability to **** things up.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

No fanfare is required for the Piss prize. At the current juncture, slow & silent withdrawal is the only way MMS can pull this off. Any fanfare & it will get shot down.

A demilitarization plan can be scheduled in phases: reduce the # of posts gradually, reduce the # of troops per post gradually, slowly decrease the quantity of weapons/ammo etc. Justify it by saying that with modern equipment & facilities, we need fewer troops to maintain the same deterrence stance. In general, play a low profile and cajole key media personnel to not look too closely at the changing position. Do it the way a python chokes a man to death - by applying a little extra squeeze when he breathes out every time.

Since the nuclear deal, the GOI/MMS has been learning the art of bypassing parliament.

Kargil was a sub-conventional conflict. Siachen will be a sub-parliamentary treachery

The piss prize can come 5 years from now
eklavya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

^^^^^

Indian Army leadership (DGMO, Northern Army Commander, COAS, etc), not the PMO, determines level of deployment required to defend Siachen. There are many Lt Generals in the loop who have no hope and no desire to become Chief and these gentlemen will not sit around silently if our defensive posture in Siachen is being undermined by arse-brained diktats from the PMO / National Security Adviser.
Vipul
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vipul »

In the Track 2 round held in Lahore in September 2012, India and Pakistan signed an agreement to demilitarise Siachen.
What authority or legitmacy do Private citizens (that's what ultimately the members of the Track II delegation are) have to sign any agreement for a Soverign Republic? If somebody is not holding an official post can he sign any agreement on behalf/for the Govt of India?

Is this another testing ballon released to gauge people's reaction by the Aman Ki Asha jokers/Moorkh Mouse Singh/ISI media cell in collaboration with the Con Party?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

eklavya wrote:A bunch of retired civil servants and military officers (senile or not, sober or drunk) have no authority or ability to commit the Government of India. Authenticate, Delineate and Demarcate has already been stated as the Government of India's position in the Lok Sabha by the Raksha Mantri. Rest all is rubbish.
an MoU can be signed, a draft can be agreed and then when MMS visits pakistan the agreement can be signed.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by merlin »

eklavya wrote:^^^^^

Indian Army leadership (DGMO, Northern Army Commander, COAS, etc), not the PMO, determines level of deployment required to defend Siachen. There are many Lt Generals in the loop who have no hope and no desire to become Chief and these gentlemen will not sit around silently if our defensive posture in Siachen is being undermined by arse-brained diktats from the PMO / National Security Adviser.
What if it comes from higher up in the chain of command?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pushkar.bhat »

merlin wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^^

Indian Army leadership (DGMO, Northern Army Commander, COAS, etc), not the PMO, determines level of deployment required to defend Siachen. There are many Lt Generals in the loop who have no hope and no desire to become Chief and these gentlemen will not sit around silently if our defensive posture in Siachen is being undermined by arse-brained diktats from the PMO / National Security Adviser.
What if it comes from higher up in the chain of command?
I recollect a interview with Field Marshal Manekshaw in which he was asked if the rumors of a coup by the army in the days before the 71 Ops were true. His answer when asked this question by Indira Gandhi was "Madam you don't interfere in my business and I don't interfere in your."

There have been enough and more instances when the Armed Forces have told the Babus and ministers to mind their own business. Mandal commission in Armed forces was one such incident when Gen VN Sharma put his foot down. I guess the same will happen again.
rohankumaon
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohankumaon »

Prem Kumar wrote:The piss prize can come 5 years from now
There is no use of this peace prize..Congress main concern is to win lok sabha election 2014. Peace prize may improve MMS legacy but at the cost of treasury and congress loosing the election - I really doubt that -

@Pratik - Sorry for the mistake....
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Arunkumar »

Times now reporting karan singh could replace sm krishna as MEA.
This news about the last sadr-e-riyasat and hari singh's son , combined with the news above , is it a sign of things to come?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

arvin wrote:Times now reporting karan singh could replace sm krishna as MEA.
This news about the last sadr-e-riyasat and hari singh's son , combined with the news above , is it a sign of things to come?
Well could be.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Another article on the recent Siachen development. This one by Kunal Verma.

Please read it here and you'll know what is happening:

http://www.gfilesindia.com/frmArticleDe ... me=DEFENCE
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

^^^^^

Look, as a working assumption, let's assume the worst: that the PM is intent on irresponsibly and stupidly signing a demilitarisation agreement on Siachen surrepticiously and without debate in his party, the Cabinet, the Lok Sabha, or the media. We know from Sharm-el-Sheikh that this PM and this NSA (because they think they are too clever!) are entirely capable of irresponsible acts of gross stupidity

In which case, all stakeholders have to ensure that they question the government about its intentions, and state their own position on the matter .

These stakeholders include his party leadership, other members of his party, cabinet ministers, opposition leaders, members of parliament, serving/retired military officers and civil servants, the print and TV media, and the general public.

I can only suggest that every effort is made (like the article linked above) to convey the groundswell of opinion against any demilitarisation deal on Siachen. Please write to and speak to all relevant stakeholders.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Anyone who may have given even a hint of reduction of troops in Siachen should be pointed out in open.

This includes of course people from the other side too to find out who carried what powerful messages across to whom. During the time of A.B.Vajpayee, deal with Mush fell off at the last moment though it was not about reduction of Indian troops in any way.

In fact all answerable personnel should be explaining what is being done to reduce troop strength on Pakistani side post Kargil war to improve confidence.
chaanakya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

From above link

http://www.gfilesindia.com/frmArticleDe ... me=DEFENCE

Now, by handing out the Siachen glacier, India is giving up its main leverage
against Pakistan without gaining anything in return. The ‘Siachen egg’ that UPA lays
in the last days of its reign can emerge as a monster of epic proportions,
severely haunting national security.
People would like to know what authority a Govt in minority has to sell out the country.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

The more I read about this latest news regarding Siachen sellout, the more I'am becoming sure that this is a chankian move by deshbhakts to preempt any such move altogether.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ Same spider sense kicking here too.

Similar to many earlier moves where certain "leaks" at right time ensured no hanky-panky was done.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Siachen And The Primacy Of Parliament - By Abhijit Bhattacharyya
ARTICLE 3 of the Constitution states: “Parliament can by law (a) form a new State; (b) increase the area of any state; (c) diminish the area of any State; (d) alter the boundaries of any State; (e) alter the name of any State”. This implies that neither the government of the day nor the head of the government nor for that mater any retired or serving general or civil servant can suo motu take away the right, privilege and power of Parliament on the issue. Seen strictly from the Constitutional angle, retreating from one’s own territory, even if done in good faith and under an “honourable” bilateral agreement (with or without verbal assurance or written guarantee) would clearly amount to shrinking of one’s own territory thereby altering and changing the boundaries and diminishing the area of the State.
Several complexities need to be untied. Is retreat from Siachen an “internal adjustment” or will it be done under a “treaty”?
The author goes on and on in the entire article, and the court example he has given is not the correct example, in matters like these. The courts are clear, do not recall the exact case now. The executive has the right to make these adjustments and draw the line on where will our forces make its stand or how our territories are protected. Parliament comes into play only if "sovereignty" is being negotiated and it is not. As far as sovereignty is concerned, it stretches to Wakhan. Also Parliament has no "formal" role except for making the government accountable through a statement or discussion. IOW: No resolution is needed to effect a demilitarization agreement.

Ofcourse the mature thing to do would be to have any foreign policy agreement ratified by Parliament, but no such provisions exist.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pushkar.bhat »

For some reason my spider sense is telling me that the entire Siachen thing is about some mandavli that the Indian, Chinese and Paki's are trying to arrive at to settle the boundary issues between the three countries. The posturing in NE and near Aksai Chin has got little to do with the long term view on how to settle these issues and more to do with the transition of power in China. I think they are also trying to ensure that we are adequately positioned to tackle any misadventures by China in case the current talks were to break down. I therefore doubt if the details of any of the agreements will be fleshed out just yet. But for sure there will be a win-win-win for all the three parties. I guess both the Indian and the Chinese leadership are in the final stages of transition from one generation to another and so very eager to cement and seal things before they hang their boot.

I don't think Karan Singh will become FM tomorrow. I think we may be in for some surprises. We may see some new precedents being setup. Some sort of a super minister may emerge who will handle multiple ministries associated and impacted by this move.

This is just my take, I have nothing to corroborate this with and for all you know I may be completely wrong. Only time will tell. Well first signs may be out in the next few hours.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Sanku »

pushkar.bhat wrote:for sure there will be a win-win-win for all the three parties.
With all due respects, the statement that there is a possible win-win-win for India Pakistan and China seems to suggest that we are considering a multi-verse scenario and are no longer talking about the reality of this poor simple earth with the at best cyclical time scales that most of us poor mortals are familiar with.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Sanku »

ShauryaT wrote:.....
ShauryaT so now are we down to discussing the legalities of whether a sell-out can be accommodated under the aegis of jurisprudence as is laid down currently?

Things are that bad?
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