Bharat Rakshak

their heavy arty will be beyond turtok, which is more than 30 miles away from Thoise. At best, they can infiltrate some 81mm/120mm mortars (10km range) to some ridges above Chalunka and try to disrupt movement along the Shyok valley road. But thoise is 25 miles away from Chalunka! and ~30 from Turtok!

Once again, this is not going to be completely unopposed.. The India army will fire back, and we will have the advantage with air superiority, and a road thats closer to the point of conflict than them.

... It has not in Siachen region because a minimalistic expense has achieved strategic points domination do so far. Let us put that into our perspectives. Today spending a couple of hundred crores to keep Siachen does not raise hackles, spending 12000 crores on sophisticated cable cars and tunnels in the future may not.

So you will do many many self goals by giving them room.

While informing the House that the 13th round of Defence Secretary-level talks on Siachen will take place in the second week of next month, Antony said during the last round Pakistan had refused to authenticate the troop positions of the two countries but India insisted on it.

"Don't expect dramatic results (from the next round of talks. It is a complicated issue," he said.

Making it clear that India was keen on authentication and had "not changed the position", he said, "it is the national position, not government position. We took the position after considered decision."

tsarkar ..very well said.

SudeepJ firing missiles( mostly duds) from their aircon rooms ...

new definitions

Military logistics = Tatra trucks, snow scooters... Arey ghadhey, khachar kya kaam ke hain phahad mein

Linkup = 6 lane highway with mcdonalds and Pizzaking with motels enroute

CBM = Indian withdrawing from its own territory

North = North West

Give and Take = Indian gives Siachen to Pakistan, Pakistan gives terrorism, jehadis, backstabbing in return !

Strategic Value = SudeepJ own home. ( rest all be dammed, saale move ho jayenge doosri place mein)


Another point SudeepJ fails to understand that when guns etc are placed at an altitude, how their range increases dramatically.

SudeepJ, if tomorrow chinese claim/occupy Siachen as part of their greater Tibet, whats the plan for their eviction?

Poster Manjgu has repeatedly crossed the line and gone personal. I have reported his post.

When someone goes personal like this, it hurts the poster the most as the value of his own message is devalued. Think about it. If you cannot cool yourself then do not post is a good rule.

Just for information, Lt. General Katoch was Bde.Commander for Siachen Bde during Kargil.

Not about Siachen
Prakash Katoch
Quote:
The Line of Control between India and Pakistan was originally drawn on a 1:250,000 map with a thick sketch pen that left a variation of hundred plus metres at any given point besides not always following ridgelines – a source of constant acrimony. Then was the naiveté of not drawing any line beyond NJ 9842 that in 1984 led to the discovery of Pakistan creeping up the Saltoro Ridge, followed by its preemptive third dimension occupation by India. The Siachen issue is not about Siachen Glacier but the Saltoro Massif. Strategic significance of the latter can hardly be gauged by armchair warriors.

Before the euphoria for demilitarization of Siachen grips the country with visions of a peace prize and another ‘landmark’ agreement before the next general elections in 2014 eggs us to draw another foolish line on the map, there is need for serious strategic introspection – ‘paid’ media hollering to ignore military advice notwithstanding. Major fallouts of hurried demilitarization of Siachen are as under:

• Widening the China-Pakistan handshake (collusive threat) to include Gilgit-Baltistan (reportedly being leased out by Pakistan to China for 50 years), Shaksgam Valley (already ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), Saltoro-Siachen region (that Pakistan may reoccupy through “Kashmiri Freedom Fighters” or cede to China), own Sub Sector North (SSN) east of Siachen with Chinese sitting on the northern slopes of the Karakoram Pass if not on top of it already, and Aksai Chin already under Chinese occupation.

• SSN and Eastern Ladakh will become focused objectives of Chinese strategic acupuncture. Defence potential of SSN will be totally degraded with western flank exposed and KK Pass to north, which India stopped patrolling years back for fear of annoying the dragon. We continue to remain thin in Eastern Ladakh against Chinese threat via Aksai Chin – heightened more now with possibility of two front war.

• Our next line of defence will perforce base on Ladakh Range with possibility of Leh coming within enemy artillery range.

• Ladakh and Zanskar Ranges will be targeted for terrorism by ISI nurtured groups while Pakistan will say they are ‘out of control’. ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist outfits with an eye on Ladakh since late 1990s.

The recent media frenzy has exposed the citizenry to the arms lobbies, which may be the tip of the iceberg but what about global games being played by countries whose economies are largely based on weapon exports. Look at the manner in which India and Korea were partitioned – recipe for centuries of strife. Look at the deceit by the British in forcing Skardu into Pakistan’s lap. Look at the aftermath of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria – heightened conflict and who makes the moolah through arms sales, oil, re-construction and power? Why are the Ottawa University, the Atlantic Council and the National Defense University, Washington not discussing a ‘Peace Park’ astride the Durand Line? Will demilitarization of Siachen increase the chances / avenues of conflict between China-Pakistan and India?

Protagonists of total demilitarization from Siachen with suggestions to keep reserves ready for offensive action in case of double cross need to answer the following:

• If the whole exercise is based on trusting Pakistan, what exactly has Pakistan done to earn that trust? Has the anti-India terrorist infrastructure including 40 terrorist training camps in POK been dismantled? Has ‘any’ progress been made in punishing the perpetrators of 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks?

• How will Ladakh be defended post de-militarization?

• What force levels we will need to hold ground - mainly along the Ladakh range? On face value ‘many more times’ the current strength north of Khardung La will be required – remember while one brigade was deployed in Kargil earlier, post 1999, the same area is held by a division with nine battalions deployed on the LC and additional troops required during summer months to check infiltration.

• Where and in what quantum will reserves for Saltoro Ridge locate, how will they be acclimatized, time frame for launch and what is our capability to launch them at those heights on a ridge already occupied?

• What troops will we need to counter infiltration and possible terrorist influx into Ladakh? Even requirement of placing reserves on the Zanskar Ranges will need examination.

• Expenditure on establishing next defence line post-demilitarization; posts, bunkers, gun positions, helipads, administrative echelons, new communications infrastructure with increased quantum of troops, time frame, tenability, maintenance and recurring expenses.

• Effect of demilitarization on population in the area, especially the Nubra and Shyok Valleys considering army provides livelihood to most.

Nawaz Sharif’s call for Pakistan to take the lead and withdraw troops from Siachen glacier is nothing more than a political statement and Kayani’s call to resolve the dispute saying his country follows “the doctrine of peaceful co-existence with its neighbours especially India”, words of a sly fox. Without remorse for her dead during the Kargil conflict, Kayani is capitalizing recent loss of soldiers in an avalanche to rake up demilitarization because:

• Pakistan is at great disadvantage vis-à-vis India at the Saltoro Ridge with Pakistan holding Gyong and Bilafond glaciers on lower ground to the West.

• The situation in Gilgit-Baltistan is becoming explosive due to neglect of Shia dominated areas, enforced demographic changes, subtle but deliberate conversions to Sunni form of Islam and state sponsored Shia massacres. Any outbreak of insurgency will adversely affect communications to Siachen.

• In conjunction Shaksgam Valley, ceding Gilgit-Baltistan region to China for 50 years (reported by USA’s Middle East Media Research Institute) can extend to Siachen-Saltoro through to Aksai Chin, forcing Indian defences south and increasing the vulnerability of Ladakh region.

• Demilitarization will open avenues of infiltration and terrorism into Ladakh. Since late 1990s, Pakistan’s ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist organizations including Tehreek-e-Jaferia (TJP) and its many sub groups with an eye on Ladakh and Zanskar Range south of it.

To say that Pakistan will be in no position to re-occupy Siachen is foolish. Even while Indian troops were deployed at Saltoro, the Kargil intrusions were never visualized on plea that terrain was not negotiable. Additionally, in 1984, when both India and Pakistan rushed for Gyong La, an agreement was reached following a flag meeting for both parties to withdraw. Indians did, but the Pakistanis re-enacted their back-stabbing legacy and occupied the pass in clear violation of the agreement made hours ago.

Compared to Saltoro Ridge, we have many times more troops deployed on Ladakh and Pir Panjal ranges in Kashmir, some of them holding equally, if not more, tenacious posts including some in glaciated terrain. Equally dangerous avalanches occur periodically in such areas resulting in loss of lives. Yet, there have been units who have done a full tenure in Siachen without losing a single man to weather and terrain. Yoga and religiously following pre-induction training saves precious lives.

Lack of strategic forethought and political unilateralism has been typical to India ever since Independence. More significantly, ambiguity and deceit have been the hallmarks of China and Pakistan. Ask yourself have they ever bothered about world opinion? Will their expanding nexus and US pullout from Afghanistan, not make Pakistan more uppity? India would do well not to look at Siachen in isolation. In case of Siachen, first the AGPL and posts held by both sides must be duly delineated on ground and map. We need dispassionate analysis of all issues mentioned above before taking any step towards demilitarization.

Oh.. ignorant ignorant human..

http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/7.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arish.html has the image of a Pakistani medium lift helicopter capable of transporting 155 mm artillery. Low flying helicopters in the mountains cannot be detected by radar because of clutter.

BTW Sudeep, why did Pakistan violate the well defined LoC in Kargil sector? What guarantees do you provide against further misadventurism?

Being abusive reveals the character. Being selectively responsive to such abuse is also revealing. Sooner or later people come around to their senses. If they don't admins usually take care of it.

I have the same objective that the poster comes around and refrains from language that are against the rules. Tried it gently a few pages back, did not work. The pattern of the poster continued, did not want the debate to go south and hence reported. Better than responding a gali with a gali, it is the quickest way to derail a thread.

As for selective responses, are we not humans and subject to our own biases. The best we can do is be very aware of these biases and then form our views and express them. Using language that is respectful and cordial - especially when you are differing is the essence of a good debate.

PS: See the previous pages, for Lt. Gen. Katoch's report posted first by me and also a point by point response has been provided. I think you missed it.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2145&p=1274024#p1274024

My understanding of North to the Glaciers is actually a line North West..right to where the Westernmost Glaciers exist in the Northern Areas. There should not be any of these beautiful glacial regions in Paki hands first place. Travesty and insult to nature and beauty.

Thanks very much. I dont have the time to respond to that post right now, but will get back later in the evening. However, for a start - why do you think that the leasing to China is not possibly true? [You are suspicious of its veracity, which means you do not rely on this information claim].

We should hold on to this for another decade at least. Pakistan is collapsing. Why think of making an international park and invite the world NJ9842-K2-Karakoram Pass? Who gave that authority to whom? Do we convert Gir forest to an International Park?

Another idea i have and am putting it here loudly..so please bear with me. What if we withdraw from Siachen..Paki's occupy it. Why are we thinking of trying to reoccupy Siachen without crossing the LOC? All we have to do is destroy Skardu and cut it off from the Northern areas completely. All logistic routes to Siachen pass through Skardu. Cut Skardu completely off from the Northern areas. A single winter will finish the Paki's however many at Siachen.

The only sense it makes to withdraw from Siachen is if in case of Paki misadventure, the IA has a free hand in cutting off the entire Northern areas from them. Not North to the Glaciers but West to the J&K border. So if at all we withdraw, the punishment for Paki's should be heavy. So can the IA squeeze that guarantee from the GoI? If not, then how can GoI even think of us withdrawing from our own territory?

@ShuaryaT - I'll reply to your post. But when thing which is obvious from your post is that the onus of any sort of normalization rests on India and Indian Army. In the entire post, there is not a single argument on how PA can alleviate the Indian concerns - it is we must adjust and any how any arguments India (or I) put forth is an impediment in the peace process. This when it is India which has been the aggrieved party all through the history of Indo-Pak relations.

Why Skardu, IA has to drive down a scarce 30kms down the Shyok valley road to cut off the Pak garrison in Goma/rest of Siachen.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&m ... 460c2b3628

*I am not trying to tamp down your aggression, simply pointing out the enemies vulnerability too.

And hence all the more important that his recent statement of Pakistan reneging of a local military agreement in 1984 for Gyong La should be known, if accurate. For, the 1989 Chumik Glacier disengagement has held, till date.

I have mentioned in other posts, how PA can alleviate Indian concerns. To repeat with some more thoughts on it. I do not consider PA a credible conventional threat to India. Their threat comes from unconventional means and this is where most action should be sought.

What is the time frame for all that you state?

1. Dismantle Jihadi infrastructurePlease define this? What is the time frame? Can India ask for arrest of Hafeez Saeed?Will ISI stop sprouting IM type of groups in India?
2. Stay away from being the spoiler for trade, people-people relations citing Indian security threats.How does India benefit from this? It is pakees who benefit from this.
3. Keep the larger resolution of Kashmir in cold storage and focus on normalization and less militarization of the area on both sidesAgain, what time frame?
4. Stop trying to compete with India's increasing national strength, they will not be able to and will only hurt themselves in the processWhat goes my father's if they try and compete with India..let them go bankrupt trying to emulate India.Indian militarization is a requirement in itself.
5. Limit their nuclear arsenal. India has no intention to annihilate the people of PakistanWhat do you mean by limit?Is 10 Nuclear Bombs limited arsenal or 20? And as long as a single one remains along with delivery mechanism, it threatens the Indian population.
6. Cooperate with India on demilitarization of the region, as India gets ready to adjust its own doctrines and force structures, currently optimized for threats to Pakistan. India has no will or capability to consume the state of Pakistan, even if PA completely disappears tomorrow.Again, why should I concede everything. Let PA rationalize and downsize. As it is, they are too big given the size of their country.

Another question to the proponents of withdrawal and who give the argument about India reserving the right to strike across anywhere, please do elaborate on this -

(a) Where do you think India can do this?

(b) If the answer to the above is across LOC and that too in Northern Areas only, can you please elaborate on the how does one do it and what is force structure required?

(b) What is the present force level and the cost for raising additional force levels?

(e) and please compare the above cost with holding cost of Siachen.

<SNIP>http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=214354392437017481925.0004bf182f1460c2b3628 <SNIP>

This depends on the political objective to be achieved. But, it has to be a political and not just a military objective. My preference is for a massive conventional response to achieve some meaningful objective that guarantees a firm thrashing to the PA with loss of substantial and meaningful territory.

Because it fails a basic smell test. Look at the source of the report, it is clear it is mischievous with no ground in reality.

Neither anyone from China, TSP or India has reacted to it.

To me it looks like a trial balloon to gauge reactions.

India did not give any. I know many in India would like India to be pro-active. I have been watching this region for 10+ years now. This way there are many other mischievous reports and a numerous CT floating on all sides. A "lease" of "Gilgit-Baltistan" - I mean crazy is the word for China to consider it. The person who suggested this, has never looked at a map or assumed that others will not. We cry for Shaksgam a desolate valley, ceded illegally to China have not done anything about it, so someone now tried to gauge our reaction to this lease report. Demographics, topology would not favor such a move for China. China is NOT interested in acquiring more trouble. They are happy, with the buffers they have with Tibet and Xinjiang largely in their control. So, at the end of the day does not pass my smell test.

Added: Read the following and form your own view.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/print6076.htm

rohit

apologies for the light hearted response.. but a lot of handwaving has been done in the thread, my response was only concerning the flight of fancy to Skardu, and pointing out that to isolate the Siachen garrison, one does not need to go that far.