Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

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ramana
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Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Ok since news of ramjet shell by IITM has lead to a range of discussion, I would like to approach this from a systems approach.
The topic is VLRP options for India.

Before everything what types of warfare? Attrition vs Maneuver?
What are the characteristics of each?
How deep is the battlefield from WWI, WWII, 1965, 1971, Kargil wars.?
Next targets, expected ranges, damage capability of different ordnance, and cost effectiveness. Dont jump to Last attribute first as usual. We can use high, medium and low.

Niran as you have some ideas please xpost your ideas here.

BrarW Please post what are US and China plans to be aware of things.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

A brief writeup on the evolution of the modern western artillery.

https://armadainternational.com/2018/01 ... l-gunfire/

Like many areas of warfare, digitisation is changing the way fire control of artillery is performed. Guns are becoming more responsive and arguably less reliant on a complex supporting network of observers and headquarters.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

ATK’s PGK: Turning Shells into Precision Artillery

In addition to the earlier post on the systems of the western armies. A detailed write up on the rational for the PGK and the cost constrains presented by Excalibur.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Arun.prabhu »

This is probably a thread hijack. If it is, tell me where this should go because we worry too much about the Chinese bogieman when all evidence indicates our armed forces have a good handle on the problem.

I think of long range precision fire as our magic wand to utterly dominate China in any future war. Not in the north where the Himalayan plateau and thick forests and horrible terrain mean a decisive war to the knife cannot be fought and where the Chinese have to contend with logistics over very high altitudes to move men and materiel.

When I say long range precision fire, I’m not thinking plain old lob a shell over the horizon artillery, though if we could achieve a four or five hundred kilometer range land gun with reasonable accuracy - a very, very tall ask - it would make Chinese carriers even worse of an investment than they already are.

Here is my thinking:

China apparently imports more than 10 million barrels of oil every day through the straits of hormuz, around the Indian Ocean and through the straits of Malacca. That’s 2500 miles of ocean - ten days in the Indian AO. Any misbehavior from China up north or through Pakistan has to be punished in the Indian Ocean where we will always reign supreme regardless of however many super carriers the Chinese can built. We have the southern tip of peninsular India poised like a knife into Indian ocean’s heart and we have the unsinkable carrier in the Andaman islands, after all. Forget about investing in CBGs to counter the Chinese CBGs. We don’t have that sort of budget. No, whatever CBGs we build would be playing offense attacking Chinese string of pearls near the straits of hormuz and africa, far from the range of DF-26Ds and making it impossible for the the 1000 mile ranged Chinese surface fleet to operate on the western side of the ocean. Maldives at just 600 kilometers from Kanyakumari merits an insurgency bought and paid for with INR/USD and weapons as well as a barrage of cruise missiles or SSMs at the harbor facilities - fuel dumps especially as well as any other combatant in anchor - to take it out.

So, what should we use to counter the Chinese CBGs and convoy escorts? Missile artillery - very long range - and if we ever develop the technology and operationalize it, very long range precision fire guns deployed in Lakswadeep, A&N, Kerala, Maharastra, Tamil Nadu and West Bengal for overlapping fields of fire.

What are the requirements of such a system?
1. Real time tracking, classification and identification of vessels in the Indian Ocean AO. Satellite, possibly, though with the Chinese ASAT assets in place, they aren’t going to last for very long. Or better yet in terms of survivability, underwater sensor network that feeds data in near real time to land based targeting and fire control systems.
2. Acoustic signature of as many Chinese surface combatants as possible so that when the day comes, we know which general locality we need to aim our missiles.
3. IR, radar signatures of Chinese combatants as well as videos or pictures to build a database to vessel recognition database that’s good enough to differentiate between Chinese and other vessels.
4. IR sensors or radar sensors or even cameras and image recognition software that are rated tor missiles and which can identify particular ships.
5. Road mobile launchers for the missiles and ideally mobile artillery. If not, guns protected from conventional missile strikes.

We likely the SOSUS in place already or will have it thanks to US and Japan - with whom we’ll definitely share that data - and we should have acoustic signatures of all Chinese vessels that have legged it into the Indian Ocean.

We have the shaurya missile already which is road mobile, and which has a range of 700 kilometers for a warhead of 2000 pounds and a CEP of 20-30 meters - good enough to hit an Aircraft carrier or a supply vessel or a decent chance of hitting a destroyer.

We have tech to maneuver warheads for terminal guidance as indicated by the CEP of Brahmos and Shaurya, we don’t have issues with accuracy.

So, pretty much all the pieces are in place.

Now, if we had artillery guns with five or six hundred kilometer range - Maldives becomes completely untenable as a base for the PLAN - because we would lob shells all day and laugh while we’re doing it, shells being that cheap. Since the PLAN surface combatants are not nuclear powered, don’t have long legs (even their blue water component), and don’t have the support fleet to operate entirely at sea without depending on ports to refuel and rearm, taking out a couple of adjacent bases in the Chinese string of peals would be all she wrote.

Denying PLAN and China’s energy lifeline through the Indian Ocean isn’t a pipe dream. And once that lifeline is threatened, China had better heel or else…

Additionally think of the beefing up of the warplane deployments down south - the SU-30MKIs to deliver love letters to PLAN vessels and Tejas to beat back any suitors from PLAN CBGs - as complimenting the artillery deployments and one’s heart goes pitter patter as Chinese dreams of regional hegemon today and superpower tomorrow goes down the drain.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by VKumar »

Replace shells with missiles and what you say is achievable
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Arun.prabhu »

Read my post again.
VKumar wrote:Replace shells with missiles and what you say is achievable
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Arun. Prabhu yes as you admitted its thread hijack. Right now VLRP Fire is >75km.

So let's concentrate on what's achievable and doable. Maldives is another problem. Not here.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:Ok since news of ramjet shell by IITM has lead to a range of discussion, I would like to approach this from a systems approach.
The topic is VLRP options for India.

Before everything what types of warfare? Attrition vs Maneuver?
What are the characteristics of each?
How deep is the battlefield from WWI, WWII, 1965, 1971, Kargil wars.?
Next targets, expected ranges, damage capability of different ordnance, and cost effectiveness. Dont jump to Last attribute first as usual. We can use high, medium and low.

Niran as you have some ideas please xpost your ideas here.

BrarW Please post what are US and China plans to be aware of things.
What is attrition warfare?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

Attrition warfare is a military strategy consisting of belligerent attempts to win a war by wearing down the enemy to the point of collapse through continuous losses in personnel and materiel. The war will usually be won by the side with greater such resources.[1] The word attrition comes from the Latin root atterere to rub against, similar to the "grinding down" of the opponent's forces in attrition warfare.[2]

Manuver Warfare
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
Maneuver warfare, or manoeuvre warfare, is a military strategy that advocates attempting to defeat the enemy by incapacitating their decision-making through shock and disruption.
Please read the two wiki articles so you can be familiar with the ideas of these two primary concepts of warfare.

Obviously VLRPF is great for attrition warfare as it destroys enemy concentrations. However it also will be a powerful tool for maneuver warfare as it destroys enemy concentrations and allows own forces to move fast and furious by destroying vital centers.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Depth of battle in Indian context.

The depth of battle was and is dependent on the range of the artillery available and the imagination of the generals commanding..
WWI the depth of battle was not much as it was mostly attrition warfare. The guns were usually 6" howitzers firing a 100 lb. Shell to about 10,000 yards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_6-in ... t_howitzer

German equivalent was the 15 cm howitzer.

Yes there were longer guns but these were few and used to fire occasionally.

World War II we dont find deep battle on Western fronts between Western Allies and Germans.

However the Soviets came up with Deep Battle on the Eastern front which involved destroying enemy rear units and not just the frontline troops.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation

The goal of a deep operation was to inflict a decisive strategic defeat on the enemy's logistical abilities and render the defence of their front more difficult, impossible—or, indeed, irrelevant. Unlike most other doctrines, deep battle stressed combined arms cooperation at all levels: strategic, operational, and tactical.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by shyamd »

VLRP is basically part of the US 2028 Multi Domain Operations strategy.

Fundamental problem:
- China & Russia are now challenging the US and allies in every domain.
- The adversaries seek to achieve their strategic aims, short of conflict, by the use of layered stand-off in the political, military, information, electromagnetic spectrum and economic realms to destabilise, deter and defeat US, allies & partners.
- Should conflict come, they will employ multiple layers of attacks in all domains--land, sea, air, space and cyberspace--to defeat us.
- If the adversaries are successful, US risks losing the strategic depth that gives our Joint Force its operational advantage and enables our offensive military capability. i.e. the enemies can threaten us in locations previously thought to be far enough from the front lines.

VLRP is basically 1,000 mile artillery. But before they can get there ERCA is trying to get to 300 mile shell.

Image
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Good article on the ram jet shell from IITM.

We can review each segment without polemics and brining US into ever discussion.

https://www.strategicfront.org/research ... ry-so-far/
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Philip »

Attrition warfare,what we should conduct against Pak to cause rhe max. no. of casualties of their men in uniform. The same with
the PLA. The heroes of Galwan have shown us the way.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Philip »

Arun has brought up an interesting point. VLR arty of the Gerald Bull "supergun" class could from strat. locations on the mainland strike v.deep into Pak and Tibet. The Q is the cost of a supergun- good old film on it, its ammo,or the max. range for ER shells for current 155mm arty. Ultimately it is the ability to deliver ordnance onto the enemy with max.accuracy in the most cost-effective manner. Railgun tech should also be looked at v.seriously both for naval warfare and land systems.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Philip, Such gun technology isn't useful. Better to go for hypersonic either glide vehicle or scramjet. Then question comes what targets and what payloads?


I wanted this thread to confined to long range artillery fire to destroy troop concentrations from forming up in deep battle.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by niran »

Arty was is and will remain God of war, IA fielded 4(ain't a typo) 6 pounders at Ladhak border during the cheena war it was a miracle or sheer muppets on cheena side they did not over run IA all over Ladhak uptil Srinagar in the month long fighting which took place.
WW2 allied (minus ruskis)had shorter range arty Brithish compensated it with "walking barrage"
then late ww2 and korean war USA introduced longer range guns they faced accuracy issues so target ranging with 5 shell max was invented. post vietnam "speed and mobility is life" became the in thing, roos had at one time almost 18k MBTs facing Oirope Oiropeans were shaken to the core they could not field equivalent numbers so tank buster planes were designed (for example Jaguar) meanwhile arty accuracy plus mobility improvement measures began invented, by 70ies ranging fire was reduced to 3 shots then WLR made life miserable for arty folks the quest for precision shells and system with first shell on target began.
system includes various sensors to measure barrel distortion temperature outside temp atmospheric density wagera wagera. system alone was not enough because local condition over target could not be measured(who will go place air density meter over target eh!) so shells with guidance to land where they are supppsed to land was invented.
with accuracy achieved range increase became priority, to understand gun range advantages during 65 IA guns outranged paxi guns by 5 to 8km IA although had lesser number of guns did not lose any arty gun to enemy fire while paxi lost around 300plus(figure is from my head from reading a decade and half ago so don't fuss over accuracy) you out range your foe he can't hurt you even with the best WLR he has, simple yes?
so VeryLongRangePrecsion the idea is to out range and pinpoint accuracy. if enemy has the means shoot and scoot will be applied so tne gun has to be mobile that is quick setup and packup rapid fire rate and accurate(af kourse)
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by niran »

my Physics level is 12th standard, but from what i understand IIM Ramjet shells increases its velocity in-flight, and is very stable stabler than normal arty shell,
higher shell velocity in flight that is after the shell has left the barrel means lower recoil means lighter gun means more mobile.
higher velocity means lesser time to target means more accurate reagrdless of guidance or lack of guidance in both for mobile and stationary targets.
stable shells means more accuracy.

to answer "missiles can do the job"
no missiles cannot do the job of arty shelling at the end of the day the side pumping in mmost amount of lead in least amount of time span is the winner. missiles numbers in thosands at best arty shells numbers in millions at worst. moreover arty system fire rate is higher that missiles. and no before people start MBRL raakit MBRLs are complimentary not replacement or competitive of Arty.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Good summmary of the benefits of VLPF!!!

Are you really a doctor!!!
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Philip »

For sustained fire to saturate a target zone only arty. and MBRLs can do the biz. on land. Our desi arty has a 45+ km range ,with MBRLs beyond. Missiles are v.expensive and inventories will be limited.Even the US ran out of Tomahawks in GW 1.Railguns are an option too.Arun.P has proposed LR gun projectiles for maritime defence. Railguns with simple metal projectiles,not shells, do more damage with their kinetic energy than the latter. They will make their debut sometime this decade aboard warships. But the best LR option to attack targets in the rear of FEBA are dedicated close-support,heavily armoured aircraft like the A-10/ SU-25s,less vulnerable than attack helos too.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by niran »

Philip wrote:For sustained fire to saturate a target zone only arty. and MBRLs can do the biz. on land. Our desi arty has a 45+ km range ,with MBRLs beyond. Missiles are v.expensive and inventories will be limited.Even the US ran out of Tomahawks in GW 1.Railguns are an option too.Arun.P has proposed LR gun projectiles for maritime defence. Railguns with simple metal projectiles,not shells, do more damage with their kinetic energy than the latter. They will make their debut sometime this decade aboard warships. But the best LR option to attack targets in the rear of FEBA are dedicated close-support,heavily armoured aircraft like the A-10/ SU-25s,less vulnerable than attack helos too.
yes, just like 5 fingers make a fist and smash a face all of the above combine and punch a huge hole.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... Arty12.pdf

The Indian army RFQ for a precision strike and re targetable munition.

I think that it is relevant for further discussion on this thread.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

X posting from arty thread.
Vips wrote:Pvt co developing 250-300km range guided rockets for India.
JSR Dynamics, the company founded by former vice chief of air staff Air Marshal (retd) Shirish Deo, is at an advanced stage of developing a guided rocket of 324 mm calibre. On completion of the project, it is expected to be the first ever weapon system of this kind in India under the above-300 mm caliber category.

It is billed to outperform the existing arsenal of similar systems with the forces, and also counter the A300 type of rockets with the Pakistani army. Currently, the Indian defence forces have the Russian Smerch rocket under this category. Smerch has a caliber of 300 mm.

The 324 mm rocket of JSR has been designed to have a larger caliber and a longer range, said Deo. The Smerch rockets with India are unguided weapons, he said.

The JSR rocket on the other hand is expected to have a range of 250 to 300km along with guided capacity, making it more precise on the target. The Smerch rocket has a range of around 100km. Deo says even with the advanced features there are plans to sell the rocket at a price lower than the current price of acquisition of other systems.

The design has been made and the guidance system would be ready soon. JSR is in talks with a European company to provide highly specific impulse propellent. If it works out, some of the units may be sent for filling. The warhead would be made by JSR.

The propellent gives a push to the rocket, and explosion is created by the warhead.

The rocket is being independently developed by JSR using its own funds and is not against any request for proposal by the defence forces. On completion, the company plans to put it up before the army for evaluation. The company is open for exports to friendly countries too, he said.

Once ready, the rockets are expected to be a game changer for the forces. This would also be the first of its kind of weapon designed and made in India, said Deo.

Work is under way in both private sector and defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs) for making the guided Pinaka rockets. However, Pinaka is of 224 mm caliber, and a shorter range. The guided Pinaka rockets have range of 70km. As against this, the conventional Pinaka can be fired upto 40km.

JSR Dynamics was formed by Deo after he retired from service. The current investment stands at Rs63 crore. “We believe in operating at rather low margins as profit is not the motive,” he said.

After the surface fired rockets, there are plans to make a variant which can be shot from fighter planes too.
I hope this works out as it will be a welcome addition to our planned rocket force and will fill a much needed and crucial need of having a very long range rocket strike capability. Otherwise as things stand today our rockets are outranged by not only the chinese but by the Porkis too.
I am not very sure about applications of the planned ranges from a tactical point of view.

But it is still an interesting system to have.

The guidance system could be shared with, or evolved from the Guided Pinaka

.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

I long Twitter thread on US programs

https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status ... g09vQ&s=19
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Reinstall is developing mounted artillery to match Russian 70 km guns.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/indirect-fir ... -solutions

Will post full article.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Indirect fires: Rheinmetall details its latest solutions
13/01/2023
Paolo Valpolini


At Eurosatory last June Rheinmetall unveiled its proposal for the German Zukünftiges System Indirektes Feuer mittlerer Reichweite (Future system Medium range indirect fire) programme, which aims at providing the Army with new wheeled long range howitzers to answer the Russian superiority in terms of indirect fires. Range comparison shows immediately the critical situation in which western armies find themselves in terms of tube artillery, the Russian 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV reaching over 70 km while the PzH2000, currently one of the most advanced western systems, fitted with a 52-calibre barrel, can shoot at slightly over 30 km using a boat tail munition, and short of 40 km using a base bleed round. The Russian attack against Ukraine of February 24th 2022 and the prolonged war that ensued has shown once again that in terms of casualties, indirect fires account for 70-80% of the total. Many armies, among which the German one, which were already considering to improve their artillery assets to fix this unbalance, have accelerated their programmes, while industry is actively proposing new solutions.

Rheinmetall’s roadmap in this field is clear and aims at increasing ranges by exploiting new guns, new projectiles and new charges. Lethality, range, survivability, mobility, ammunition load, rate of fire, automation and ergonomics are all fields that need improvements in order to provide forces with effective systems, a reasonable growth potential being also a priority considering the need to evolve new systems in order to adapt them to new threats and operational scenarios. Beside the launching element, the gun/howitzer, Rheinmetall is also working on propellants and projectiles to increase ranges and effects. EDR On-Line was provided a full briefing on what the Düsseldorf-based group is developing in the artillery domain during the 20th edition of the Rheinmetall Defence Talks, which took place in Berlin 5-7 December 2022.

Truck mounted artillery, a stepped approach with more growth potential

Adopting a pragmatic approach, Rheinmetall decided avoiding to design a fully new product, and teamed with Elbit Systems of Israel, the latter having a new artillery system already in advanced stage of development. In April 2019 the Israeli Ministry of Defence signed a contract with Elbit Systems for the development of an “advanced artillery system to replace existing ones.” Known as Sigma, it is a truck-mounted and fully automated howitzer, which pre-series systems should be delivered soon, the IDF requirement being for over 100 guns.

“Rheinmetall is ‘Europeanising’ it, integrating the RWM 155/52 mm elevating mass, the fire control computer, and installing the system on an HX3 10×10 RMMV truck, a demonstrator being expected to run in 2023,” Patrick Lenz, Vice President Business Development-Portfolio, Vehicle Systems Division told the audience. As anticipated, the new system will be fully automated, therefore the turret will be unmanned, and the two-man crew will carry out fire missions remaining in the truck protected cabin. The turret features an automatic loading system that operates with the barrel at any elevation angle, the manipulator allowing chambering and ramming ammunition and charges, a chain rammer being used. It is compatible with all projectiles designed according to the NATO JBMOU (Joint Ballistics Memorandum of Understanding) and with charges following the Modular Charge System (MCS) or Extended Range Charge (ERC) standards. A fuse setter ensures the ammunition being loaded to be programmed with the data provided by the fire control system. The setter is produced according to NATO AOP-22 (Allied Ordnance Publication) “Design Criteria and Test Methods for Inductive Setting of Electronic Projectile Fuzes” and allows the setting of all fuses designed to standard.


The turret contains 40 projectiles and 192 charges, allowing firing 80% of the rounds, that is 32, with 6th charge increment. If required to shoot at the same target, therefore without the need to modify the elevation, the autoloader allows a rate of fire of 8 rounds per minute. The truck-mounted turret can fire up to five rounds in Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) mode. Should the autoloader system fail, manual loading would allow half that rate of fire, the turret being accessible to the crew thanks to a corridor between the ammunition load, on the left side, and the charges, on the right. On both sides we find two magazines, two 20-round ones on the left and two 96-charges ones on the right; this ensures redundancy, each being fitted with its own e-motor, and should one of them fail the system would remain operational, albeit capable to conduct a reduced number of fire missions. Magazines are based on a Paternoster system, and feature a chain with 20 compartments hosting the rounds, the selected round being moved in front of the manipulator that grabs it and carries it to the breech. Charge magazines are conceptually similar, the right number of modules being loaded according to inputs coming from the fire control system. The autoloading system is currently undergoing qualification tests in Israel, Elbit Systems working together with Israel Defence Forces. Blow-off panels ensure any explosion would be directed outwards reducing the effects on the truck cabin hosting the crew. Should a customer require a higher number of rounds, an extra 10-15 munitions can be hosted in the turret in add-on racks, of course not in the automatic loading system. The new system maintains the through-loading capacity of the PzH 2000, which allows manually loading ammunition from outside, these being either used for immediate firing or stored in the magazine, an operation that can be carried out at a rate of 4 rounds per minute.

As said, the Rheinmetall version of the truck-mounted howitzer will be fitted with the company 155/52 mm elevating mass. “This is similar to that installed in the PzH2000 tracked self-propelled howitzer, however the cradle is different. Development firings will be carried out in early 2023, starting from firing from a stand and step by step reaching the full system firing test,” Patrick Lenz said.

Between the turret and the platform vehicle, Rheinmetall will install the Artillery Turret Interface, ATI in short, fitted with four hydraulically operated outriggers, the only hydraulic elements of the whole system. “These allow stabilising the system in order to permit shooting on all 360° without any limitation in terms of elevation and charge. Outriggers are extended in less than 20 seconds and retracted in about the same time; should the main system fail, the operation can be carried out using the truck APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) or finally it can be done manually, of course in a longer time,” Patrick Lenz explained. EDR On-Line understood that Rheinmetall is investigating the possibility of carrying out fire missions without the need of extending the outriggers, in a limited angle, around ±10° from the 12 o’clock position


The platform vehicle is the HX3 10×10, the biggest version of RMMV new line of trucks. The turret is located at the rear, over the three rear axles, which allows a good load distribution, the five-axle architecture ensuring good mobility, sufficient for a combat support system that does not need to follow combat vehicles in the worst mobility situations. “Two main reasons led to the selection of a truck rather than an armoured personnel carrier as the platform of choice: one was cost, the HX3 being around one third the price of an APC, while the second was growth potential,” Patrick Lenz stated. Not only the acquisition price of a truck is lower, but also its life-cycle cost is lesser, which is even more true if the Army deploying the system is already equipped with HX vehicles. In the current configuration the SP howitzer can carry an extra 5 tonnes, which provides flexibility in terms of add-on capacities to cope with evolving threats and scenarios.

One of the future developments was already visible in Paris as a mock-up, as the turret was fitted with a 60-calibre gun currently under development by Rheinmetall in its Unterlüß factory. The new gun has not only a longer barrel but also a bigger chamber volume, comparable to that of the US ERCA (Extended Range Cannon Artillery), and a fully redesigned muzzle brake. Beside the L60 the German group is also developing the L52A1, which allows a higher chamber pressure, both solutions increasing the range. That said, forces in the turret will be very similar and the rate of fire will also be the same of current systems.

New propellant key to improve range

Having a long-barrel system to shoot a projectile is not enough, the energy the latter acquires during its travel within the barrel being provided by the propellant charge. Improvements in this field are ensured by Nitrochemie, the company jointly owned by Rheinmetall and RUAG and specialized in high-performance propellants. One of the key elements in the group evolution towards longer ranges is the Extended Range Charge, ERC in short.

“Its development started five years ago and the ERC has reached a relative high level of maturity,” Pascal Schreyer, Senior Vice President Sales & Marketing Propulsion Systems at Nitrochemie explained at the Berlin event. EDR On-Line understood that the ERC is now offered for in-service ammunition and in-service platforms, so both can now be qualified with the ECR. According to information provided, the ERC can increase the effective range of in service ammunition (BT and BB) and new ammunition (RAP, Rocket Assisted Projectile, and V-LAP) by 10% to 20%, increasing muzzle velocity while remaining within pressure limits of current guns, as it is compliant with the system Permissible Maximum Pressure (PMP) limit imposed by STANAG 4110. This ensures that barrel wear and system stability are respected. The ERC comes in a single piece charge, as it aims at maximum range, and its ballistic performances were proven in 2019-2022 on several platforms and in different firing ranges, with two firing campaigns in Alkantpan, South Africa, two in Yuma, United States, as well as other in Northern Europe.

“The range increase can be exploited either to reach targets at longer distances, or to compensate the range loss generated by the adoption of course corrected fuses (CCF), which increase accuracy at the cost of a range reduction of around 10%,” Pascal Schreyer said, adding that “a new propellant technology was key in developing the ERC. Usual propellants employed in available modular charges have a near-linear increase in velocity and pressure along with temperature increase.

The ERC exploits a novel propellant developed by Nitrochemie, known as P6, which is a triple-base propellant that comes from a solvent less production, and is surface treated. “The P6 allows reaching peak performances at operational temperatures, around 21°C, hence increasing the overall system performances in the mostly used temperature range,” Pascal Schreyer said. As an example, considering the PzH 2000, at standard temperature the pressure is increased from around 330 to over 380 MPa compared to the DM92 modular charge Zone 6, and muzzle velocity is increased by nearly 70 m/s, from 945 to 1.015 m/s, according to the graphic provided.

{A an increase of 50/330= 15% increase in max pressure!}


Two different versions of the ERC are currently available, one for 155/39 mm and the other for 155/52 mm systems. Both have a proof pressure of 395 MPa and can be used in the –46/+63 °C range temperature, however their dimensions and weight differ, that for L39 guns being 780 mm long with a 13 kg weight while that for L52 systems is 960 mm long and weighs 16 kg, muzzle velocities being obviously different, over 900 m/s for shorter barrels and over 1,010 m/s for longer ones. Until now ERC developments were aimed at full-bore ammunition, however Rheinmetall is ready to develop a specific charge for subcalibre ammunition, should a customer require it.

{ARDE and OFB should work on the ERC charge.}


New ammunition to deliver optimal terminal effect at longer ranges


“Today we have a BT projectile known as DM121 in Germany and M1712 in the Netherlands. The latter can be transformed in the M1711 that features a base bleed add-on allowing it to reach around 40 km when fired from the 52-caliber gun of the PzH 2000. We then have the V-LAP projectile, a smart solution that combines base bleed and rocket assisted propulsion, these working just at the right time. This solution allows to have more explosive than a RAP projectile, while obviously less than a standard one,” Dr. Christian von Hörsten, Head of Department, Development Artillery and Launcher Ammunition, Business Unit Weapon & Munition, told the audience adding that the V-LAP demonstrated in numerous tests its capacity to reach 54 km using the DM92 modular charge system.

Stepping from today solutions to near future indirect fire capability, this at Rheinmetall is represented by the use of the ERC, which as previously said allows a 10-20% range increase. These performances were tested and verified back in 2019 using a PzH 2000 howitzer.

A mid-term solution is offered by the L52A1 gun, which is an optimisation of the currently available gun installed on the PzH 2000, which can be qualified in shorter times compared to a fully new weapon. It uses the same barrel, the same breech and the same sealing system, however it has a bigger chamber volume and the chamber pressure is increased

{ATAGS already has a larger chamber volume}

The long-term solution obviously comes with the L60 gun and new projectiles, which are being developed to answer the aforementioned Future system Medium range indirect fire programme which requirements calls for a 75 km range with conventional ammunition. “As this figure is for non guided ammunition, we added some range to compensate course correction fuses,” Dr. von Hörsten explains. The 82 km range will be reached using a V-LAP projectile, which EDR On-Line understood being a new development of currently available rounds that will maintain the same outer dimensions and weight, 43.5 kg, to be JMOU compatible, but will be hardened to accept higher pressure levels.

{ In layman's terms what he is saying is course correction fuzes trade range for accuracy. IOW IA should adopt the 48km ATAGS in order to get 40km accuracy using CCF fuzes. Don't whine later that CCF is reducing the range. There is no free lunch}

“The V-LAP carries around 4 kg of explosive, however we are working on pre-fragmented designs that will increase lethality,” he added. As part of its ammunition development programme Rheinmetall is also working on a new driving band, which was tested in 2021 shooting from a PzH 2000, using modified charges. The charge system for the L60 will adopt a stub case, to deal with higher chamber pressures, and the primer will be screwed into the stub case and not located in the breech. reaching a muzzle velocity of 1,144 m/s. First trials are expected to take place in early 2023.

Today Near future Mid term Long term
L52 / MCS-DM92 L52 / ERC I52A1 / ERC L60 / ERC
Boat Tail (BT) 30 km 36 km 39 km 48 km
Base Bleed (BB) 40 km 46 km 52 km 64 km
Velocity-enhanced Long-range Artillery Projectile (V-LAP) 54 km 63 km 68 km 82 km


Beside the work being done on new projectiles and charges, Rheinmetall is also launching an upgrade programme concerning its SMArt 155 (Suchzünder Munition für die Artillerie 155Ammunition, search-used ammunition for artillery) currently in service with Germany,Greece, Switzerland and Australia, and qualified for use in the United States.

{Cargo round}


Developed in the late 1980s by GIWS (Gesellschaft für Intelligente WirkSysteme) a joint venture between Rheinmetall and Diehl Defence, each round contains two submunitions that are released over the target area, their seeker sensing tanks and armoured vehicles and attacking them from above. Used in combat in 2022 it is therefore now TRL 9. To solve obsolescence problems GIWS has just started the upgrade programme; “in 2025 we will get to the proof at components stage, production start being planned for 2027,” Dr. von Hörsten said. However work will not be limited to replacing obsolete elements of the ammunition. “Here too we are looking for extended range, the round reaching currently 22 km with an L39 barrel and 26 km with an L52. The programme is carried out in partnership with General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems in the United States. We developed a new outer shell with Base Bleed, containing the same submunitions,” he added. To test the range issue, shells with BB and inert mass were fired in September 2021 and August 2022; the first tests carried out from an L39 system achieved a 27 km range, while the following one was done from the ERCA prototype with the L58 barrel, with reduced charge and lower elevation, reaching over 38 km, maximum predicted range being 48 km with a muzzle velocity of 1,054 m/s. The new round is fully JBMOOU compliant, the programme running under the C-DAEM (Cannon-Delivered Area Effects Munition), GD OTS being the prime. It also features a new lightweight aerodynamically optimised ogive which reduces drag, furthering the base bleed effect. A US decision is awaited before moving to the next development phase.

Photos and images courtesy Elbit Systems, Rheinmetall and P. Valpolini
Pratyush
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

https://gagadget.com/en/weapons/233930- ... mmunition/
M777 howitzers can fire up to 150km - General Atomics unveils LRMP high-precision manoeuvring ammunition
By: Maksim Panasovskyi | 11th April, 00:31
https://twitter.com/DragonLadyU2/status ... 3755966466

Twitter link showing a set of pictures explaining the employment concept for the system.
Last edited by Pratyush on 12 Apr 2023 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
Pratyush
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »



Naval news

Published 6 April 2023.

Time stamp 0.46 onwards.

People are spending good money to make artillery reach out and touch some at extreme long ranges.

Such capabilities open interesting tactical opportunities for friendly forces for striking deep in the rear of the enemies.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

M777 howitzers can fire up to 150km - General Atomics unveils LRMP high-precision manoeuvring ammunition
https://gagadget.com/en/weapons/233930- ... mmunition/
11 April 2023
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by pravula »

How much of the explosive is comprised? Is it still a 155mm shell with all this extra stuff?
Pratyush
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

A typical 155 mm HE shell ( Blast Fragmentation) has about 7 kg of explosives.

So it's possible for this to carry the same amount of explosives.

Having said so, based on the mission set, it's possible that it might be fitted with a shaped charge warhead.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by sanman »

How is this program coming along?

ramana
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by ramana »

Vulcano shell system by Leonardo.
Upto 70km precision fire.

https://www.militarytoday.com/artillery/vulcano.htm

Meanwhile Indian Army is studying lessons from Ukraine and cutting out the only long range gun.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote: 18 Sep 2023 20:47 Vulcano shell system by Leonardo.
Upto 70km precision fire.

https://www.militarytoday.com/artillery/vulcano.htm

Meanwhile Indian Army is studying lessons from Ukraine and cutting out the only long range gun.
Long range gun and rocket artillery has proved pivotal. Ookrain range mismatche against Roos has telling impact on the front.

In Ladhak front its not gun against gun issue, it is rocket against Rocket mismatch between IA and PLA rocket force. It's going to be ugly unless fixed Pronto. 300mm tube artillery need fixing.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Haridas »

niran wrote: 10 Jan 2021 17:23 my Physics level is 12th standard, but from what i understand IIM Ramjet shells increases its velocity in-flight, and is very stable stabler than normal arty shell, higher shell velocity in flight that is after the shell has left the barrel means lower recoil means lighter gun means more mobile.
higher velocity means lesser time to target means more accurate reagrdless of guidance or lack of guidance in both for mobile and stationary targets.
stable shells means more accuracy.
.
The gun imparting spin to the shell complicates electronics and stabilized guidance midflight.

IMVHO Ramjet thrust to maintain velocity would be the sweetspot between business payload and volume & mass lost to Ramjet engine & fuel. (Compared to accelerating it)

All 100km range guided shells system need mid flight and near terminal navigation that is robust and inexpensive (imaging seeker expensive and daylight use). GPS is a no go in modern battlefront. IMVHO most promising would be focused optical beam based navigation from 100kg drones (3x) flying at >10,000 ft altitude above artillery gun position. (Well away from counter fire). The focused optical system making it jamproof; & the electronics in shell robust and inexpensive.

It's not beam riding system, but optical signaling based ranging system. Think of it as kind of GPS on light beam instead of microwave RF.
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Re: Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2024/0 ... pe-effort/
US Army scraps Extended Range Cannon Artillery prototype effort
Published on 11th March 2024
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