Indian Army History Thread

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ramana
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Post by ramana »

True they were posted earlier. However I feel that the links should be read again and again to see the factors of surprise in the 1962 Chinese aggression. 1962 was a strategic surprise that has affected Indian body politic in a deep way. The Indian Army and the political groups(these were the two greatest groups in India at that time) took some of the blows but the intelligentia has not understood why it happened and if we know the root cause for the strategic surprise. All that the Hendorson Brooks report and the later reforms did was to fix the areas they found defficient. But is that all there was to it?

One can see there was strategic deception that PRC used to lull the Indian decision makers- Political, military and intelligence. Yes there was the bull frog syndrome and others. However were there any greater moves that went on? The popular conception is that PRC took advantag of the Cuba crisi and launched their attack. But how and why did they build up before that to be able to launch in 1962.

So by posting it and if someone else reads it with fresh eyes maybe we can see the rest of the puzzle. to me 1962 and Kargil are not yet resolved and need to be looked at again and again.
Sorry if it prevents closure for you. Its still open for me.
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Post by vivek_ahuja »

Hmm, well, I will agree that the matter is far from closed, I was just pointing out whether it might be better to have continued that discussion in that thread rather than this one.

In any case...
However I feel that the links should be read again and again to see the factors of surprise in the 1962 Chinese aggression.
That is something I have never agreed with. There was no factor of surprise if the Indian leaders hadn't closed their eyes to begin with. Its like driving blindly into a wall and then deliberating about who put that wall there in the first place.

The Chinese had warned again and again that they would use force if India did not back down from its belligerent stance. The Chinese have always done this before any confrontation. That's how they roll. However, the Indian side chose to take that from our perspective, wherein the politicians do the talk but don't walk. And hence the game rolled off the cliff.
One can see there was strategic deception that PRC used to lull the Indian decision makers- Political, military and intelligence. Yes there was the bull frog syndrome and others. However were there any greater moves that went on? The popular conception is that PRC took advantage of the Cuba crisi and launched their attack. But how and why did they build up before that to be able to launch in 1962.
This is the other thing. The time lines for the 'strategic deception' phase and that for the aggressive statements are separated.

My read on the situation is along the lines of the above reports in that during the 1950s the Chinese did in fact believe that the Tibet situation (and the Aksai-Chin road) could be resolved without the use of force with Nehru in power. But once Nehru started buckling under the pressure of the opposition parties and started to act aggressively, the Chinese responded in kind.

In my mind there is little or no connection with the Cuban crisis at all. The plans to use force was being looked at all the time. We chose to ignore the buildup on their side as a bluff.

And as for the 'how' part on the buildup, I am not sure on what the Intelligence capabilities were at the time, given that we had in fact completely missed out the construction of the road in the Aksai Chin until it was nearing completion over Indian territory. But it seems likely that the forward Commanders feeling the pressure of the chinese forces knew exactly what was coming. The brilliant generals decided otherwise.
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Post by ramana »

Vivek, Please see my KRC Report: A Commentary to see what I mean by factors of strategic surprise.

I would like to compile one for the 1962 debacle.
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Post by Paul »

Vivek_Ahuja wrote: But it seems likely that the forward Commanders feeling the pressure of the chinese forces knew exactly what was coming. The brilliant generals decided otherwise.
Vivek, the generals knew exactly what was coming.

As early as 1959, when my late father was a gentleman cadet at the IMA, General Thimayya gave a lecture where he said (paraphrasing here) "Boys, these politicians do not know what they are talking about. Mark my words, we will be fighting the Chinese one day". Unfortunately men of this calibre were no yes men znd were fatefully removed to be replaced by flunkeys like Kaul and Thapar.

Suggested reading: "Lest we Forget" by Amrinder Singh and "Himalayan Blunder" by Brig Dalvi.
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Post by Paul »

Krishna Menon and Panikkar's should be held culpable for this debacle. The yes men in the army men were merely following orders.

Their actions pulled wool over the Indian's establishmet (adverse reports from MEA - Panikkar) and the def ministry (Menon) preventing India from adequately preparing to meet the PRC threat.
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Post by svinayak »

vivek_ahuja wrote:
In my mind there is little or no connection with the Cuban crisis at all. The plans to use force was being looked at all the time. We chose to ignore the buildup on their side as a bluff.
Recent information will tell that Chinese attacked and withdrew exactly when the Cuban crisis started and ended. So there is a connection to the Cuban crisis.
It has to do with both US and Russia.

US position was that China is communist and it does not have a relationship. India accepted some help form US based on this assumption. This assumption may be wrong.
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Post by SShah »

Paul wrote:Krishna Menon and Panikkar's should be held culpable for this debacle. The yes men in the army men were merely following orders.

Their actions pulled wool over the Indian's establishmet (adverse reports from MEA - Panikkar) and the def ministry (Menon) preventing India from adequately preparing to meet the PRC threat.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/mar/25rajeev.htm
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Post by Jagan »

http://frontierindia.net/album/main.php ... &g2_page=1

A nice veterans album from Lt Col A K Sharma's collection.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

A nice book review by C Uday Bhaskar on a great soldier. I had heard of Lt Gen Gill's role in the Balkans in passing but didnt know his details. I knew he was the founder of the Paratroop Regt.

A soldier's soldier
A soldier’s soldier

C. UDAY BHASKAR

Biography of a distinguished but a lesser-known General of the Indian Army

BORN TO DARE — The Life of Lt. Gen. Inderjit Singh Gill PVSM, MC: S. Muthiah; Penguin/Viking, 11, Community Centre, Panchsheel Park, New Delhi-110017. Rs. 495.


Occasionally one comes across an unusual biography which throws light on a forgotten central protagonist and in the process, illuminates a whole period of recent history. Born to Dare is one of those little gems and the author does not hide his enormous admiration and affection for his subject. This book “is by no means a military biography… (it) is the story of Inderjit Singh Gill, a rather uncommon type of person, who might have been born to dare…” avers S. Muthiah, and there is little doubt that he tells a very absorbing “story” about one of the Indian Army’s more distinguished but little-known Generals.

Inder, as he was referred to, was born in England in 1922 a few years after his father, Gurdial Singh, a medical doctor in Edinburgh married a young local girl — Rena Lister. A year later the senior Gill received the King’s Commission in the Indian Medical Service and the family moved to India and lived in different parts of the country including Bareilly, Dehradun, Vishakapatnam, Vellore and Madras. Given the practice of the times, Inder went to England in 1938 to train as an engineer but his life was overtaken by the turbulence of World War II and the tumultuous events that followed.

Unusual career

I.S. Gill (1922-2001) had a very unusual professional career that straddled three armies for he had the rare distinction of joining the British Army as a private in 1939 and was later commissioned as an officer. His heroic exploits in World War II in Greece as part of the Special Operations Executive (SOE) that undertook the covert Operation Harling is little-known and Muthiah has painstakingly researched this niche. The first part of this book is a detailed account of Captain Norman (Inder) Gill’s participation in the demolition of the critical Gorgoppotamos Bridge which was to have had a strategic impact on the Rommel-Montgomery battle in North Africa that was shaping up and Muthiah is at his dramatic best in recounting this phase of Inder’s life.

Subsequent chapters trace the transition of this remarkably brave, tactically astute but consistently blunt officer from the British Army to the British Indian Army a little before India’s Independence, and finally his joining the Indian Army in January 1948. A soldier to the core, Inder Gill soon found his natural calling as a paratrooper and became a legend in his lifetime. The 1948 Kashmir operations, peacekeeping in Korea and Gaza, command of a mountain division, Director, Military Training and concurrently officiating Director, Military Operations (DMO) in the Army Head Quarters, and finally Army Commander of the Western Army before it was bifurcated, Gill was an extraordinary soldier, modest to a fault and a very caring human being whose myriad qualities of head and heart Muthiah recounts with rare empathy.

The officiating DMO during the 1971 War for Bangladesh, there are many vignettes that Muthiah alludes to which testify to the pivotal role that Gill appears to have played in that critical period. The one that stands out is Gill — then a Major General — approving the movement of a mountain brigade on December 6, 1971 into East Pakistan and standing his ground with the Army Chief, Sam Manekshaw, who was reported to have been furious with such audacity. As the book adds: “Inder insisted he had ‘in the circumstances taken the correct decision and would do so again if he remained as Officiating DMO.’ Manekshaw later confirmed the order.”

Central role

While not being a military biography in the traditional sense, there are nuances and elliptical references that merit more detailed scrutiny which would highlight the central role played by Gill in the shaping of strategic thinking in the Indian Army. The strategic use of paratroopers — so effectively demonstrated in 1971 — and grooming Sundarji to nurture mechanisation are illustrative. Gill had his shortcomings and these are recorded in some detail but what emerges finally is a luminous portrait of a soldier, who is best remembered in the poignant, evocative lines of Robert Browning (The Lost Leader), rendered by Sukhjit Singh — the Maharaja of Kapurthala — who had served with Gill. Muthiah has rendered yeoman service by putting this biography together and it should be mandatory reading for all those who have more than passing interest in matters pertaining to India’s military security — including the political and bureaucratic constituency — at a time when the Indian “fauj” is facing complex internal challenges.
Mandeep and Amar can you both add to the details of this great soldier? Can we have BRF page on him?
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ParGha »

ramana wrote: A nice book review by C Uday Bhaskar on a great soldier. I had heard of Lt Gen Gill's role in the Balkans in passing but didnt know his details. I knew he was the founder of the Paratroop Regt.
ramana,

Lt Gen Gill was one of the earliest Indian commanders of the 50th Independent (Para) Brigade, but he wasn't the founder of the Parachute Regiment. The genesis of the Indian Parachute Regiment is in the three 15x-series Para battalions raised in 1940 (of course the all-British battalion went away, but legacy of the Indian and the Gurkha Para battalions endured). The 50th Independent (Para) Brigade too has its origins in 1942-43 period (but I believe it was not independent then, rather a part of the 44th Indian Airborne Division).
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

ParGha, You are right.

Here is wiki and BBR link at bottom of the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_Regiment_(India)
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Jagan »

I do remember that Gen Gill was the Colonel of the Regiment in the 70s when their official history was published.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

We have this penchant to pick on an error and drill down on that and lose the big picture. What I asked is can we find out more about Lt gen Gill? And what we have is the error I made, which I already acknowledged, that he was the founder of the Paras!
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Paul »

SOmeone had posted a comment a year ago on Gen Gill's wide network of contacts extending all the way to the US Army....(paraphrasing here)He brought satellite photos of NE to the MOD through his buddies who in Vietnam at the time to prove there was no point in getting paranoid about allowing access to outsiders to the NE region.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Mandeep »

I feel we need to have quite a few new BR pages on leading personalities of the Indian Armed Forces.You know people like Thakur Nathu Singh, Kalwant Singh,Usman, Thorat,Mohinder Singh,Sparrow,Sagat Singh etc.The heroes to whom we owe so much.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

So what are we going to do about it? Am sure Rakesh will support on the web pages but we need folks to gather the content. Can you be sort of a guide and folks can be in touch with you as a mentor?
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Jagan »

ramana wrote:We have this penchant to pick on an error and drill down on that and lose the big picture. What I asked is can we find out more about Lt gen Gill? And what we have is the error I made, which I already acknowledged, that he was the founder of the Paras!
(if that was aimed in my direction)

:roll:
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ParGha »

ramana wrote:We have this penchant to pick on an error and drill down on that and lose the big picture. What I asked is can we find out more about Lt gen Gill? And what we have is the error I made, which I already acknowledged, that he was the founder of the Paras!
Guilty as charged :oops: However I do really want to find out more about Lt Gen Gill. I have been collecting information on Indian special operations forces in the Pre-Independence Era, so his story will be a nice addition as well. But I am more interested in unit histories, so I subconsciously reverted to my nitpick mode. In the same tune, as a moderator, if you could give out a call to any info for "J" and "R" Troops of the LRDG, circa 1943, I would be very grateful. I know some rudimentary history of those units, but not much.

Aside: Fans of pop culture will note that a young Lt. Gill had been part of many commando actions in the Med some of which were later fictionalized (not necessarily on his exploits specifically) by Alister MacLean in the Guns of Navarone (whose cliff assault scene in the movie of the same title was ripped off in Lakshaya to very good effect).
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Post by ParGha »

ramana wrote:So what are we going to do about it? Am sure Rakesh will support on the web pages but we need folks to gather the content. Can you be sort of a guide and folks can be in touch with you as a mentor?
May I suggest using Leadership in the Indian Army: Biographies of Twelve Soldiers by Major Gen. V.K Singh, as the basic primer for the people who will be contributing for it? It is available as a Google Book for brief preview. I don't have any experience developing web-content, but I can round up resources, do some basic fact checks and provide context for Pre-Independence leadership in the Indian Army (which shaped the later careers of many of the commanders Mandeep listed).
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

Perfect. So can we get some traction here to have members contribute to the forum? Pargha, can you plese start a thread and we will ask Mandeep to mentor it. Once again thanks. I think we will do more for the forces with this than any other thing at a member level.

Sorry for the rant. It was general to all forums.
Jagan, you have met me in person. Why would I say anything to you?
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ParGha »

ramana wrote: Perfect. So can we get some traction here to have members contribute to the forum? Pargha, can you plese start a thread and we will ask Mandeep to mentor it. Once again thanks. I think we will do more for the forces with this than any other thing at a member level.
OK, I will start a threat titled "History and Culture of Leadership in the Indian Army" and I will break it down into an outline format which we can expand as members contribute. Roughly speaking it would go like this:

I. History: Indianization of the British Indian Army starting circa 1920s; Issues with Indianization (KICO and ICO); Second World War rapid expansion; Partition.

II. Profiles in Leadership: An overview of the major illuminaries and their contributions.

(From then on we get straight into biographies of important officers not covered in COAS pages; in no particular order, just on basis of my familiarity)

III. Lt. Gen PVS Bhagat

IV. Maj. Gen. Sparrow
...

We can later add brief overview of the major command and staff colleges (OK, I am getting a bit ahead of myself, I will stop).
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

Thanks Chief. Am sure this will lead to more kudos for BR from the afficinadoes.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Jagan »

ramana. It appeared to be to be in response to mine OR Parghas post - Hence the "if". I could not tell which.

Anyway since its not directed at me, no sleep lost.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Jagan »

Mandeep wrote:I feel we need to have quite a few new BR pages on leading personalities of the Indian Armed Forces.You know people like Thakur Nathu Singh, Kalwant Singh,Usman, Thorat,Mohinder Singh,Sparrow,Sagat Singh etc.The heroes to whom we owe so much.
Mandeep, Pargha has taken your advice and started something on the lines. I think he will benefit much from your help and knowledge as well. What do you think?
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by vsunder »

Saw a very interesting gate guardian yesterday. I was on my way to Fatehpur Sikri and on to Jaipur from Agra. Just outside Agra on the Fatehpur Sikri Rd. is some para training outfit.
It had a Dak painted in grey with "Savior(e) of Kashmir 1947-48" painted on the side. We were going at a good clip so did not bother to take photos. There is another gate guardian a Mi-6 parked there.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

One under-explored service is the Royal Indian Medical Service which was the prinicpal avenue for educated Indians to join the Britsh Indian Army prior to the intake in Sandhurst and the opening of the IMA. Its significant that some of the children of these officers were able to avail of the opportunities through the IMA and joined the arms bearing corps. Eg. are D.K. Palit and Sam Manekshaw.



PDF on History of Indian Medical Service
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Post by ramana »

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Post by Jagan »

Archiving this
----------------
Two Chinese prisoners from '62 war repatriated
http://www.washtimes.com/news/2003/jul/ ... 257-8893r/

Originally published 10:42 p.m., July 27, 2003, updated 12:00 a.m., July 28, 2003

MADRAS, India -- Two Chinese taken prisoner during the 1962 Sino-Indian war have been released and reunited with their families after 41 years -- much of it spent in a mental asylum in eastern India.

The release of the two POWs was conceived as a goodwill gesture and set in motion during a summit in China last month between Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and his Chinese counterpart, Wen Jiabao, Indian Foreign Ministry sources said.

Yang Chen and Shih Liang had been held as spies in a New Delhi jail for three years before being transferred to the Central Institute of Psychiatry [CIP], a mental asylum in Ranchi in eastern India, where they had remained until their release at the beginning of this month. Both men are in their 60s.

CIP administrators said officials from the Chinese Embassy arrived at the asylum last month accompanied by Indian Home and Foreign Ministry officials to conduct the release.

Unlike the hundreds of ordinary patients sent to the facility for treatment by doctors or by their families, the two Chinese had been detained there under a special prisoner status.

The two were turned over to the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi on July 6 to be sent back to China, said Pradeep Kumar, the deputy commissioner of Ranchi.

"It turned out to be a long haul because the records showing their identity and other details had to be pieced together and ascertained. However, we feel better that they are now freed," Mr. Kumar said.

Indian army officials had thought at the time of their arrests that Mr. Yang was a fighter pilot, and that Mr. Shih was his flight officer. But there has been no satisfactory explanation for their transfer to the CIP in 1965.

CIP authorities maintain that the two were patients and that they had been sent by the New Delhi jail authority for treatment of psychiatric illnesses.

But a former senior psychiatrist, who said he had attended the two at the time of their arrival, told The Washington Times that the men had not been sick but had been sent there under a special order from the Indian Home Ministry.

During an interview inside the walled institution in August 2000, the two were able to communicate only with signs and gestures as they spoke neither Hindi nor English. Mr. Yang shuffled around the hospital using a walking stick because of his ailing knees, but Mr. Shih appeared to be in good health.

One medical attendant at the hospital said at that time that the two had suffered from minor schizophrenia-related problems when they were brought in but had recovered more than 30 years ago.

"They have been forgotten by both countries. They don't have anywhere to go, and so they remain here," the attendant said.

Hospital officials said they had received no instructions regarding the two from either the Indian government or the army for decades.

Only after local journalists publicized their plight three years ago did India begin action to send the two men home. But the Chinese government at first refused to agree that the men were Chinese, one Indian Foreign Ministry official said.

"China took time to investigate the case on their own. About two years ago, finally, Beijing accepted the two as Chinese and started diplomatic lobbying for their return to China," the official said.

"Then, finally, on his recent trip to China, Mr. Vajpayee agreed to hand the POWs over to Beijing."

Chinese Embassy officials have been reluctant to discuss the case, but one embassy source said the prisoners have been reunited with their families in Sichuan province.
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Post by Jagan »

this is a newsreport from DAWN from January 72, weeks after the 71 war ended.

Turned out to be a real eye-opener for the common folks in Pakistan

Image
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ASPuar »

ParGha wrote:
May I suggest using Leadership in the Indian Army: Biographies of Twelve Soldiers by Major Gen. V.K Singh, as the basic primer for the people who will be contributing for it? It is available as a Google Book for brief preview. I don't have any experience developing web-content, but I can round up resources, do some basic fact checks and provide context for Pre-Independence leadership in the Indian Army (which shaped the later careers of many of the commanders Mandeep listed).

I have a copy of this book.
I would be very glad to support the proposed thread, time permitting. Please email me at Aditya1982 AT Yehoo det coom (spellings purposely compromised, to avoid being harvested for junkmail. Id be happy to be part of a group working on such a project.
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Post by Airavat »

Maj-Gen Anant Singh Pathania passed away

The first Indian officer to command the Gorkha Rifles and get a Military Cross — Major General Anant Singh Pathania (retd) breathed his last in Dharamsala on December 19, 2007. He was 95 years old. Anant Singh is survived by his octogenarian wife, three sons and two daughters.

Image

Major General Anant Singh’s father Lt. Col. Raghubir Singh Pathania laid down his life during World War-I while commanding 2 J&K Rifles. His grandfather Major General Sardar Bahadur Nihal Singh led troops during Hunza, Nagar and Black Mountain expeditions. He was awarded the Order of British India First Class with the title of Sardar Bahadur (both military and civil).

Major General Anant Singh’s mother Raj Devi was the daughter of General Baj Singh Dalpatia of Chitral fame. He was married to Uma Devi, daughter of Colonel Bakshi Chand Katoch who was the first Dogra King’s Commissioned Indian Officer. One of his three sons has also retired from the Army as a Major General recently.

Anant Singh was born on May 25, 1913, at village Re in Kangra district of Punjab (now Himachal Pradesh). He was commissioned in the 5 Gorkha Rifles on February 3, 1935. Soon after getting commissioned, he was sent to Waziristan to suppress the Pathans but keeping in mind his leadership qualities Anant was sent to the famous battle of Keren in North-East Africa during World War-II in 1940-41, where he played a vital role in suppressing Italian forces. He was given the Military Cross for his courage.

In his book ‘Ball of Fire” on World War-II, Antony Brett has mentioned about the Anant Singh’s leadership qualities. Although wounded in the face and in both legs, he collected his company headquarters and any other men he could muster, and pushed the enemy out with the bayonet. Only then, and under orders, did he hand over the company to his second-in-command wrote Brett.

After his return from Keren, Anant was sent to fight in Burma as a Brigade Major — the first Indian to hold such a key appointment at that time. Later, he was selected as deputy president of the first Regular Commission Selection Board in the rank of Lt. Colonel, superseding at least 400 Indian and British officers.

After independence, he was selected as the first Indian officer to command the 1/5 Gorkha Rifles. For a short period, he was asked to help civilians in the walled city of Delhi in the wake of partition and influx of refugees.

In November 1948, the Indian Army’s advance towards Drass and Kargil sector was hindered by the enemy’s presence at Pindras gorge. To overcome this, a two-pronged attack was planned and 1/5 Gorkha Rifles, under the command of Lt. Col. Anant Singh Pathania, was deployed to capture the ridge ahead of Pindras, on the north of Gumri Nala.

The battle is supposed to be the hardest ever fought during the Jammu and Kashmir operation. Anant not only led several reconnaissance missions but also pressed home the attack on the enemy on November 14, 1948. Despite heavy enemy machine gun fire the 1/5 Gorkhas forged ahead, inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy. The victory was attributed to Pathania’s daring reconnaissance of enemy positions on the eve of battle.

The Indian government and senior officials of the Army were so impressed by Anant Singh that the strategically important mountain top he captured was named as ‘Anant Hill’. After this victory, he was also honoured with the Mahavir Chakra for exceptional gallantry and leadership qualities.

In 1949, he as promoted to the rank of a Brigadier and was assigned the task of integration of State Forces of Saurashtra and Kutch. He worked as Director General of the Military Intelligence from 1952 to 1956, Brigade Commander from 1956 to 1959, before being elevated to the rank of Major General in July 1959.

He also worked as Director General of the NCC for a short period. While on tour to attend NCC programmes, on a short notice of few hours, he was called back to take command of the Fourth Mountain Infantry Division in 1962 in NEFA during the Indo-China war.

Later, he was deputed with the union ministry of education as Director General of National Discipline Scheme assigned the task to infuse a spirit of national integration and discipline among students. Although, he retired from Army in January 1965, Anant was asked to continue with the union ministry of education before he laid down the office in July 1967.

Thereafter, he stayed at Jammu and then at Dharamsala, till he breathed his last. During the last days of life, he was a little worried by the shortfall of officers in the Army. His son Vasudev Singh Pathania says his father had a message for youngsters — ‘Serve in the world’s best fighting force. There is nothing greater than wearing the uniform of the Indian army”.

His wife Uma Devi also proudly told The Tribune — “Our nine generations have served as guardians of the nation.” A statement enough to motivate any Indian!

A.K Sam Sharma on the '62 debacle:
The WW II, fabled Indian 4 Infantry Division was badly mauled in Oct-Nov 1962; & their General Officer Commanding ( GOC) Maj Gen A S Pathania, Military Cross (MC) ; earned with the Frontier Force (FF, later 5 RGR); was hauled over the coals & discredited & disgraced in the media….May his soul RIP……..he passed away very recently, aged 93!
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Mandeep »

General Anant Pathania wasn't commissioned in the 5 Gorkha Rifles. He only joined them after Independence. The British did not allow Indian officers to serve with the Gurkhas who were kept as an exclusive British preserve. General Pathania was actually commissioned in the 6/13 Royal Frontier Force Rifles (now 1 Ff in the Pakistan Army).

The General had a glittering career and seemed destined for higher command till he took over 4 Inf Div in October 1962. His poor performance while in command of this formation has cast a pall over his otherwise fine career.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Mandeep »

BTW the author of 'Ball of Fire' the WW 2 history of 5 Indian Division is Anthony Brett--James.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Mandeep »

Colonel Bakshi Chand Katoch was commissioned with the first batch of KCIOs from the Cadet College, Indore in Dec 1919 (they got seniority from 17 July 1920). Another of his sons in law was Maj Gen Maharaj Shree Ghanshyam Singh who was commissioned with the last batch of KCIOs from Sandhurst in 1934. He served with 16th Cavalry and was taken POW in Malaya during WW 2. Refusing to break his oath and join the INA he was very badly treated by the Japanese.For his courage, leadership and determination while a POW he was awarded the MBE by the British.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by Jagan »

From Manekshaw to Admiral Nanda (probably after being awarded the padma vibhushan)

http://bp2.blogger.com/_UwIbz_oPn8E/SGy ... /sam02.JPG

:D
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Some images from the 1965 war:

Image

An Indian soldier in Kashmir...


Image

Abandoned Indian Army vehicles in the River Ravi after a local Pakistani advance...

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Another image to add to the 1962 war photo collection:

Image

Indian troops in Laddakh before the commencement of hostilities...

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by ramana »

Not really Indian Army but British Indian Army.

Deccan Chronicle, 22 Spet., 2008
‘We grew up with khukris’
By James Delingpole

It’s not often a chap gets to shake a hand that has personally accounted for 31 Japs in one battle. But such was my privilege outside the Royal Courts of Justice this week at the launch of a splendidly righteous case demanding fair and just citizenship rights for Gurkha veterans.

A tearful Joanna Lumley was there — her father fought with the Chindits as a major in the 6th Gurkha Rifles — as was a typically well-mannered crowd of perhaps 300 Gurkhas and their families. But the stars of the show were the two frail, elderly men sitting impassively in wheelchairs, with their unmistakable crimson-ribboned bronze crosses stuck proudly on their chests. There are currently only 10 living recipients of the Victoria Cross and three, it almost goes without saying, are Gurkhas.

Tulbahadur Pun, now 86, won his in June 1944 at the turning point of the Burma campaign, when almost all his section had been wiped out by Japanese machine guns at the Mogaung railway bridge. Firing his Bren from the hip he advanced alone under shattering fire till he reached the enemy bunker, polishing off three occupants with his khukri and causing five to flee in understandable terror.

The VC of Lachhiman Gurung (now 91) must rank among the most implausible ever. In May 1945, his forward post at Taungdaw, Burma, was attacked by 200 of the enemy. With his two comrades lying wounded at his feet, Gurung — all 4ft 6inch of him — continued to hold his position single-handed for four hours. Quite literally single-handed, for his right hand — and his right eye — had been blown away by a grenade. Calmly, he continued loading and firing his rifle with his left arm alone, killing at least 31 Japanese at point-blank range.

"But we don’t want to give the impression it’s only VCs that matter," says the Gurkhas’ lawyer Martin Howe, and he’s quite right. When VCs are involved, the government can worm its way out with special dispensations, as it did last year with Pun, after the scandalous episode in which he was initially denied permission to settle in Britain for urgent medical treatment because he had "failed to demonstrate strong ties with the UK".

It’s the other Gurkhas we should worry about: the ones who have given the best of their lives fighting for King or Queen and Country — that’s Britain, not their native Nepal — but now find themselves turned away in their hour of greatest need. Under current pettifogging regulations, only those discharged after July 1, 1997 — when the brigade’s HQ moved to the UK from Hong Kong — are eligible for "fast track" citizenship. Others — WWII veterans, the ones who served with distinction in Korea, Malaya, Borneo and the Falklands — must persuade immigration courts that they have "close ties" to the UK.

But this isn’t about justice, it’s about a cash-strapped, morally bankrupt government running scared. Eager to be seen to be tough on immigration and panicked by the extra burden that will be placed on the Treasury, the government is fighting the case tooth and nail.

It’s picked the wrong fight, though. Absolutely no one outside ministries of defence and home has any sympathy with its position. "Immigration is not normally a popular subject, but on this occasion we’ve got the whole country behind us," says Howe. According to one estimate, the total additional cost to the Treasury, should the Gurkhas win, will be around £200 million. "Beer money," says Howe. Well, not always, perhaps — but definitely where the Gurkhas are concerned. The British public just can’t get enough of them. We’ve been blood brothers since the Anglo-Nepalese war ended (in a draw: you can’t win against Gurkhas) in 1816 and we’re not about to sever that tie over a sum constituting roughly one-third of what the MoD spends every year on compensation claims.

Since 1817, Gurkhas have fought alongside British troops pretty much every war. Around 100,000 of them fought in the First World War; around 250,000 in the second. In that period, almost 50,000 of them died in action, 150,000 were seriously wounded, and they earned themselves 6,500 military decorations, including 13 individual VCs and another 13 regimental VCs. There are currently around 17,000 applications for the 230 places offered in the Brigade of Gurkhas each year. To qualify you must be able to carry a 25kg bag of rocks on a six-km run up and down vertiginous Nepalese slopes in under 35 minutes.

"You always felt safe as houses when the Gurkhas were around," recalled Alf Jordan, an 8th Army veteran who’d joined the Gurkhas’ protest march to No. 10 in a gesture of solidarity. "And they’d look after you even though half the time you didn’t know they were there." "So what is it that makes you lot so great?" I asked Bhimrajtum Bhangphe, who served in Kosovo, Sierra Leone and East Timor. "Where you grow up kicking footballs, we grow up playing with bows and arrows and our khukris which we use for everything, even sharpening our pencils. That is our tradition because we want to be the best fighters on the planet," he said. "But our secret for winning the war is love. We love each other. We respect our comrades. They also have an inspirational motto "Better to die than be a coward". Can you think of any people on earth more deserving of UK’s hospitality than the smiling, noble warrior race that gave us men like Lachhiman Gurung and Tulbahadur Pun?
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by adam »

vivek_ahuja wrote:Some images from the 1965 war:
Image
Abandoned Indian Army vehicles in the River Ravi after a local Pakistani advance...
-Vivek
Vivek,
That's an AMX-13. If you can find out which Regiment had them as recon tanks, that and the name of the water course could help fix what when they were abandoned.
http://www.indopedia.org/Indian_Army.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... mx13-1.gif
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Post by adam »

Greetings, all.

It's been quite a long time since I last visited these forums.

I'm currently involved in a restoration project.

Would anyone have access to any copy (digital or paper) of the following manuals?:

Gun Drill:
26/Manuals/1391 QF 3.7-inch Mk 1 Howitzer on Mks 1 - 3R Carriage, 1934.
26/Manuals/1664 QF 3.7-inch Mk 1 Howitzer on Mk 4 Carriage (Provisional), 1936.
26/GS Pubs/432 QF 3.7-inch Mk 1 Howitzer on Mks 1 - 3R Carriage, 1941.
26/GS Pubs/432 QF 3.7-inch Mk 1 Howitzer on Mk 4P Carriage, 1941.
Handbook:
26/Manuals/469 QF 3.7-inch Howitzer Mk 1 on Mks 1, 2 & 3 Carriage, 1930.
26/Manuals/1738 QF 3.7-inch Howitzer Mk 1 on Carriage 3.7-inch Howitzer Mks 1, 2, 3 & 4P, 1939.
Maintenance Manual:
WO Code 1450 3.7-inch Howitzer, Ordnance QF Mks 1, 1/1, 1/2 and 3 on Carriage Mks 1/1, 2/1, 2P, 3/1 and Mks 2, 2/1 Indian, 1946.

The last - the maintenance manual - would be the most helpful.
Thanks, in advance.

nb: Description and additional images
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_inch_Mountain_Howitzer
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... witzer.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 3.jpg.html

username changed to adam.
Rahul.
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