UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Nov 2015 08:21

nachiket wrote:Maybe the home country never envisioned using the system in such circumstances.

During procurement, these details are verified, like availability of certification, testing done on the product, etc. And operational testing is always carried out in India. Remember, Bell & AW pulled out of Army Light Helicopter because of the repeated trials expenditure.

nachiket wrote:Recall what happened to T-90's French thermal sight in the Indian summer.

That was an Indian enhancement after the procurement. Like fitting Elta 2032 to Sea Harrier. Obviously designer/manufacturer cannot own/test something not part of original design.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 21 Nov 2015 10:17

tsarkar wrote: Like fitting Elta 2032 to Sea Harrier. Obviously designer/manufacturer cannot own/test something not part of original design.

So you do acknowledge by this that furreign maal isn't necessarily put through the strides by Army but Indian wares are subject to more testing .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2015 10:44

Even if Nishant experience crashes either due to technical failure or as DRDO says mis-handling from the army , they should persist with the program , as failure analysis and rectification is key part of any operational deployment.

What if there is crash of Rustam or AURA post operational deployment will they even cancel it or do a root cause of it and rectify the problem and go ahead with Mark 2 and 3 model.

A rail lauched UAV is ideal to be deployed from ships and Nishant can be deployed from smaller ships to larger LPD or Aircraft carrier , I wonder how IN didnt take notice of Nishant operational deployment from Ships or did DRDO demoed it to IN ?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 21 Nov 2015 17:43

^^
Nishants recovery on a ship will be less then glamorus to say the least. They can try via net, but for UAV of its class and size net might be even more problamatic.

On ships they need something like scan-eagle, which is easy to deply and recover.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Nov 2015 20:37

tsarkar wrote:<SNIP>Obviously designer/manufacturer cannot own/test something not part of original design.

It is still pertinent to ask questions about how something is not working, and also if it is working, just as it is to ask how something tested 50 times by DRDO is not ordered in numbers and the whole project is terminated because failures 4 times in all.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Nov 2015 21:39

Austin, Operating Nishant from ships is not ideal apart from what is mentioned by Sid the rails need to be stabilized for it to be launched which would require extensive refit on the vessel.

Unfortunately rapid pace of innovation have made Nishant obsolete simalarily Sperwer is more less being retired by Canada in favor of Heron. Even though former was combat proven they found rail based launch to be expensive to operate and reduced overall sortie rate.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 22 Nov 2015 07:52

tsarkar wrote:
srai, foreign or domestic, products are equally tested and vendors are penalized.

For example, INS Vikramaditya boiler lining came off during testing. The ship was sent back to the shipyard. After the lining was repaired, re-tested, only then was the ship commissioned.

And the 2.5 billion dollar question for the Vikramaditya is: this happened after the decade of delay and the ballooning in cost by 2.5x. The boiler lining issue added several months to the delivery period. Did the MoD collect any damages from the manufacturers?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 22 Nov 2015 09:19

I have repeatedly said that Isralis are responsible for delaying our UAV programme just like they tried to kill off Akash which led to so much furor. Military has successfully killed or delayed Arjun, Vidhwansak, LCA, earlier HTT, Pinaka, MRH, Nag, Light Tank etc so what's New?

John · Post by **John** » 22 Nov 2015 20:26

Israel has nothing to do with current state of uav program. It is lack of funding and delays that led us to current state IAI has superior product and hence they are being procured by armed forces including us.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Dec 2015 08:57

when they say 'Lakshya hits target' doesn't it mean the missile deployment from it hit the target? or this is simple bomb dropping?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Dec 2015 14:08

Indian navy had trialed Camcopter from one of our ships in 2007. Rotary UAV is the better for naval applications.

https://www.schiebel.net/AcmsFile/1290/ ... es_shi.pdf

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 12 Dec 2015 18:12

Japan's police use drone to catch drone -

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CV95Ce7WIAAe8Ga.mp4

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Dec 2015 02:23

India set to develop own stealth combat drones

NEW DELHI: India is finally getting set to launch an ambitious project to develop its own stealth combat drones or UCAVs (unmanned combat aerial vehicles), which will be capable of firing missiles and precision-guided munitions at enemy targets and then returning to home bases to re-arm for further missions.

Sources said the government was close to approving a Rs 2,650 crore Project Ghatak to develop the futuristic "Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle", which has already been cleared by the defence ministry. "The project is now being evaluated by an expert committee set up by the finance ministry. Once approved, Project Ghatak will be placed before the cabinet committee on security for the final nod," said a source.

Project Ghatak flows from the earlier AURA (autonomous unmanned research aircraft) programme, which was sanctioned in 2009 at a cost of Rs 12.50 crore to carry out a "conceptual and feasibility study" for the future Indian UCAV. "The (AURA) project was successfully completed in April 2013 within the time schedule," minister of state for defence Rao Inderjit Singh told Parliament earlier this month.

Project Ghatak, initiated by the Aeronautical Development Agency-DRDO combine in consultation with the IAF, now plans to bring in "collaborators" from the initial stage itself. Weighing less than a fighter jet since it will be "more of a flying-wing in design", the UCAV will take at least a decade to become fully-operational.

Interestingly, the UCAV will be powered by a "52-kilonewton dry variant" of the indigenously-developed Kaveri aerospace engine, which could not pass muster to become the power plant for the Tejas light combat aircraft.

The Kaveri engine failed to provide the higher thrust required to power Tejas throughout its flight envelope, which led India to procure American GE engines for the indigenous fighter project. But all the work done on the Kaveri engine, on which Rs 2,839 crore have been spent after it was first approved way back in 1989, will now not go waste, sources said.

Incidentally, the armed forces already have Israeli Harop 'killer' drones, which basically act as cruise missiles to first detect and then destroy specific enemy targets and radars by exploding into them in kamikaze fashion.

Moreover, some of the existing Indian fleet of Israeli Heron and Searcher-II UAVs are also being upgraded with "add-ons" to ensure they can undertake a combat mission over and above their current surveillance and precision-targeting roles, as earlier reported by TOI.

But UCAVs are far more advanced, and considered among the most potent game-changers in modern day warfare. The 'Predator' and 'Reaper' drones which are controlled from the US through satellites, for instance, have been extensively used to fire 'Hellfire' missiles against Taliban targets in the Af-Pak region.

The armed forces, on their part, are keen to further induct a wide variety of drones, ranging from hand-launched mini ones to full-fledged UCAVs. The Army, for instance, wants at least 598 mini-UAVs to ensure "battlefield transparency" and "beyond the hill surveillance" in a 10-km radius for its infantry soldiers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2015 03:50

^from where did they get that predator image from?

this is how ddm misleads people

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2015 04:07

It does say "Representative Image".

Covers all bases.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 14 Dec 2015 04:51

representative... of the US

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2015 04:57

Of an "image". Why the confusion? : )

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 14 Dec 2015 17:56

VinodTK wrote:India set to develop own stealth combat drones
NEW DELHI: India is finally getting set to launch an ambitious project to develop its own stealth combat drones or UCAVs (unmanned combat aerial vehicles), which will be capable of firing missiles and precision-guided munitions at enemy targets and then returning to home bases to re-arm for further missions.

"The (AURA) project was successfully completed in April 2013 within the time schedule," minister of

Incidentally, the armed forces already have Israeli Harop 'killer' drones, which basically act as cruise missiles to first detect and then destroy specific enemy targets and radars by exploding into them in kamikaze fashion.
........

soldiers.

This is cruel joke on the nation

The advice ML jaisimha used to give to Hyderabad young cricketers used to be

" Pahela Gola ko Roko badmay catch pakadneka socho"

First get one single functional UAV ( forget Nishant it's not a UAV) stop buying from Israel and then make bombastic statements of Stealeth

Every now and then a statement is made as if our engine program, rotary engine and all exotic things are on the verge....

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 14 Dec 2015 20:50

VinodTK wrote:India set to develop own stealth combat drones

Project Ghatak flows from the earlier AURA (autonomous unmanned research aircraft) programme, which was sanctioned in 2009 at a cost of Rs 12.50 crore to carry out a "conceptual and feasibility study" for the future Indian UCAV. "The (AURA) project was successfully completed in April 2013 within the time schedule," minister of state for defence Rao Inderjit Singh told Parliament earlier this month.

So they have already spent 4 years and Rs 12.5 crores doing a feasibility study

and now they will

Weighing less than a fighter jet since it will be "more of a flying-wing in design", the UCAV will take at least a decade to become fully-operational.

Another study project with no end in sight.

I think DRDO/HAL/ADA and all DPSUs should be banned from making a statement about "what they will do" and only make announcements when they have "operationalized" a system with the armed forces.

.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2015 03:14

Are you

-ing on the scientists? I am

-ing on the funds. My research group in university had an order of magnitude more funds.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 15 Dec 2015 04:44

Funding is mostly spent
On a air conditioned Scorpio with arrow RB and DRDO shield and sword plate
Good office location in the heart of city. lab sheds in some remote place.
Handsome expenditure on fuel. Shopping trips for memshaibs.

I am not talking through hat here from first hand experience.

All these futuristic bombastic are sure shot way keeping jobs for twenty years and then import.
I say this with no malice but with a heavy heart and reflects reality.

C cage garu sir ji said long back that DRDO was on the verge of UAV way back in 2003.

Mean while every garage in US Canada UK Brazil are making UAV.
I can understand difficulty in micro electronics and transducers and optical equipment
Just make a airframe and engine with endurance..

I think I will stop my rant .

Hint after so mch money spent Rustom is being privatized

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2015 05:10

You do realize that DRDO labs are for RnD. The technology is then passed to a production agency. Earlier, these big ticket things were passed only to the public sector. Now the private sector is also being targeted. What is wrong?

Also, I build aeromodels myself, have been part of university design teams which have won contests. So, I am fairly certain of what can be developed in a garage. A military UAV of the size of Rustom is a completely different ball game, and that's why there are 10-odd designs flying around the world. India will take time. There is institutional stupor (as you said), but there is also a big technological gap. We do not have the sensor technologies, communication technologies, and this nobody will give us. We do not have enthusiasts and industry which can build them. DRDO has to be build them painstakingly one-by-one. And all the while, it has to transparently chose a developer through an open tender which takes a year at the minimum, and years otherwise.

By the way, these technologies are not available to garage-level developers as well. Hence, we are relegated to develop UAV which can fly between obstacles and take videos of the neighbors or people. Our prototypes are handled with care, by us, the designers and developers. By the way at max we can fly them to a range of 100 kms away. And that is the absolute upper limit of where garage level developers are.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 15 Dec 2015 06:30

Spinster, Drones are built in India too as part of IIIrd year Engineering projects in colleges. It is no rocket science.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Dec 2015 21:50

With eye on China, India seeks 100 armed drones worth $2 billion from US.

India has sought from the US 100 latest unmanned aerial vehicles, both armed and surveillance versions, worth USD 2 billion to bolster its arsenal amid recurring incursions by Chinese troops.

Industry sources familiar with New Delhi’s interest and ongoing talks between the two governments, said India had requested for the latest Avenger drones, which is basically an unmanned combat air vehicle, and is mainly being sought with an eye on China.It has also sought Predator XP category which is a surveillance version for internal security issues and terrorist threats.
According to industry sources, India is looking for about 100 drones worth USD 2 billion.

However, while talks in this regard have accelerated in the past few months, the US has not made any formal commitment or given a public indication pending India’s application to joining Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). Italy, which is upset with New Delhi’s treatment of its marines, appears to have currently blocked India becoming a member of MTCR. However, both Indian and US officials are confident that they would be able to get through the last hurdle in the next few months, thus making them possible to take the defence trade – which would include armed drones – to the next level.

“Yes, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc (GA-ASI) is aware of India’s interest in Predator-series Remotely Piloted Aircraft (RPA),” Vivek Lall, chief executive of the US and International Strategic Development of General Atomics told PTI.

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems produces Predator series of remotely piloted aircraft.

Due to US export laws, the US government has to approve the export of a Predator-series RPA to the Indian government. GA-ASI remains very encouraged by the recent India-US bilateral engagements at the highest levels and we are hopeful that we can play an important supporting role in these discussions,” he said.

“Predator-series RPA could provide a world-class Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capability for India which would include both high-definition radar and Electro-optical/Infrared (EO/IR) coverage along India’s borders,” Lall said in response to a question.

Additionally, the RPA can perform humanitarian aid/disaster relief surveillance over both land and sea, said Lall, who had previously played a key role in US sale of high tech military assets to India during his stint at Boeing.

Rajput · Post by **Rajput** » 30 Jan 2016 20:16

Recent news: https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/isr ... elligence/

If the Brits and Americans have hacked the Herons (and other Israeli drones), it is likely that they have hacked the Indian versions of these too. Something to keep in mind.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 Jan 2016 14:48

http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... om-uav.jpg

when will it fly?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 31 Jan 2016 15:04

^^^ I thought it has already flown. More than 50 times. Payload development / customisation is in progress.

Possibility of "hathiyaarband" alternatives are more like "Would the blue boys like this or that or both?"

Tea is good for health.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 31 Jan 2016 22:04

Only Rustom-1 has flown. Rustom MALE has never flown.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Feb 2016 06:38

Shreeman wrote:http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... om-uav.jpg

when will it fly?

Last heard, June 2016.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Feb 2016 16:15

only taxi trials

enaiel · Post by **enaiel** » 01 Feb 2016 22:40

Was supposed to make it's first flight in early December according to the program director at ADE... but don't worry, it's in an "advanced state of readiness"! As much as I support indigenous development, they need to stop providing dates like "early next month" to reporters and provide instead dates like Q12016 if it is imminent, or FY2016 if its not.

Austin wrote:India’s Own MALE UAV To Fly Soon
by Neelam Mathews
- November 5, 2015, 11:23 AM

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... v-fly-soon

The Rustom-2 medium altitude long endurance (MALE) unmanned air vehicle (UAV) designed by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) will make its first flight by early next month. Delayed by around two years, Rustom-2 “is at an advanced state of readiness,” according to Ashok Rangan, the program director at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a DRDO laboratory that develops and transfers technology to a production agency. The project was first shown as a full-scale model at the Aero India show in 2010.
...

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 02 Feb 2016 07:23

India looks for Unmanned Combat Aircraft from the US

Reliable sources told India Strategic that India has officially mentioned the requirement for Predator C, built by General Atomics, during the visit of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to Washington in December, and that this is likely to be on the US-India bilateral agenda when Prime Minister Narendra Modi goes there March-end. He will be paying his first offical visit to the US this time at the invitation of President Barack Obama, and discussions are on between the officials of the two countries to prepare for what should be on the table for appending signatures during the high-level visit.

India has interest in both Predator XP, which is available for export right away after procedural clearance from the US Departments of State and Defense as it only carries cameras and surveillance equipment, and the Predator C, which can execute precision attacks on terrorists and their vehicles and houses alike.

Notably, IAF has serious problems in the number of combat aircraft in its inventory, although now an agreement with France for the acquisition of 36 – or more – Rafale Medium Multi role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is on the anvil.

The acquisition of UCAVs however is a parallel requirement, and this was stated as such some years back by the then Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne as a natural progression, particularly keeping in mind the hostile terror-infested environment around India.

Understandably both the UAVs and UCAVs are required by IAF, as these are strategically important – they have no pilots onboard and can be controlled from anywhere in the world through satellite communications. There could also be UCAV requirements from the Navy and Army, depending upon the capabilities of the emerging systems and cost factors.

There is no official confirmation from New Delhi – these are hardly stated to the press anyway – but there have been media reports in the recent past in this regard. And of course, as India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is yet far away in delivering an indigenous system, the country has to look elsewhere.

Asked about India’s interest in Predator series of UAVs and UCAVs, Dr Lall said he was aware of it but could only say that while the Predator XP was available without any MTCR-related restrictions, any combat drone could only be sold by the US after Congressional clearance and export laws. He said he could not however confirm or deny if India had indeed asked for these lethal flying machines.

Another advantage, according to Dr Lall, was the interoperability of GA-supplied systems with US origin aircraft with IAF and Indian Navy.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... the_US.htm

hearing second time about the Avenger sale

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 02 Feb 2016 07:43

^^ sources doesn't mean anything. It's a nice way to bs without having any concrete evidence. First of all MOD has to crackdown on these sources if they exist.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Feb 2016 14:13

Not a UAV or a drone but small drone killing hawks.

https://www.rt.com/news/330931-hawks-ea ... pt-drones/

Hawking for drones: Dutch police train raptors to take down UAVs

As the widespread availability of drones is starting to pose security risks, Dutch police are taking a medieval approach to the problem, training eagles and hawks to intercept UAVs in flight.

“In the future drones will be used increasingly, so will increase the number of incidents involving the drones. Drones can also be used for criminal purposes,” police said in a statement on its website.

So the law enforcement partnered up with a bird training company ‘Guard From Above’ to teach raptors to take down “hostile” drones.

The police released a video showing first results of the training. In the video a hawk snatches the UAV and carries it away...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Feb 2016 16:25

deejay wrote:Not a UAV or a drone but small drone killing hawks.

But the Hawks may themselves get injured by whirling props

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Feb 2016 04:14

Rajput wrote:Recent news: https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/isr ... elligence/

If the Brits and Americans have hacked the Herons (and other Israeli drones), it is likely that they have hacked the Indian versions of these too. Something to keep in mind.

Turns out that the intercepts were not of "encrypted" signals but mearely scrambled unencrypted video feeds.
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.de/2016/01 ... e.html?m=1

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 05 Feb 2016 12:46

meanwhile, in another universe, a surprisingly non silly video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjfjDzTE_w

Will · Post by **Will** » 06 Feb 2016 03:08

Rajput wrote:Recent news: https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/isr ... elligence/

If the Brits and Americans have hacked the Herons (and other Israeli drones), it is likely that they have hacked the Indian versions of these too. Something to keep in mind.

There was a report a while back that a Drdo (if I am not mistaken) engineer had managed to hack into the isreali UAV's and had warned the establishment that it could be easily done. Poor fellow was victimised because of that. The arms bazar is just to strong . Everyone from the establishment to the armed forces have a finger in the pie and hence the penchant for foreign meal

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Feb 2016 07:43

^^ While having chai at local chai-store, caught some chatpatta along with chai:

Rustom-2 seems in deep doo-doo with severe weight issues and current engine being unable to handle it leading to uprating requirements and has been given till August to shape up and deliver or the program might mostly be canned.

Also, apparently the Kaveri test in the Il-76 testbed very badly and the true picture was not given outside but inside story was supposedly not too pretty and heard that the blades ever cracked up etc.

Nirbhay also not too good picture with previous failure due to the connector snapping off due to vibrations and lots of tu-tu main-main between QA and designers. However, the project has gone inot no leak mode and no news of whats going on currently

Thats all was forthcoming in particular chai stall.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Feb 2016 09:54

^^Sad to hear. I am confident that some how Nirbhay will be inducted (mainly due to lack of availability of similar product from phoren sources to Indian Armed Forces) but the pessimist in me tells me that Rustom may not see the light of the day.

Most Indian programs end up being overweight...most Subject Matter Experts that I speak to laugh at the practices followed with in NAL/ADA. There is a scope for lot of weight optimization. It is possible that DRDO is clueless on how to bring the weight down. Why not seek external help? I am not talking about help from abroad but with in the country. Yes, currently Private players do not have the experience as well but private players can bring in people who have experience with weight optimization etc. It won't be cheap...it will shoot up the program costs but it is the price once has to pay to become a competitive player. For subsequent programs, the experience gained can be used and gradually the costs will come down. As far as I know, there are no such attempts to rope in private players right during design stage itself. As sum saar has posted, the solution path that DRDO/NAL chooses is to uprate the engine to make up for over weight.