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I remember the pics from AI 13 or AI 12 about this rapidly assembl'able radar for mountain regions. Very little news about radar induction rates. Hope all the R&D work is translated into real production units & induction
The 2D radar being referred to is the Bharan the 3D one is Aslesha both are in production for the Army and Air Force respectively.
Radar induction rates are pretty healthy only that few track it. We have huge numbers on order all being delivered at a decent clip. AF orders for Aslesha are now known to be around 20 odd units based on MOD reports. You might find this interesting.
vasu raya wrote:BMD Phase 1 deployment would mean they have early warning radar coverage of 1500kms, the Balasore to Andamans distance is 1000-1500kms, so the Phase-1 LRTR may suffice for initial testing purposes and by deployment time they might have a longer ranged one.
The target missile will have to be in the A-2 class simulating different trajectories, unless they move to road mobile Agni-5 series for deterrence they wouldn't re-purpose the A-2s. Believe the A-2 being rail mobile they should try the launch from coastal rail line between Chennai and Kolkata instead of just Balasore.
Am curious..would an OTH radar work in the mountainous north eastern front ? Also if anti missile interception is planned at much higher altitudes wont it necessitate radars with much higher power and as a corollary have much longer ranges than the present swordfish ?
kit saab, OTH radar requires lengthy calibration phase, other than that given the Tibetian plateau, maybe its a good call and so is the Indian ocean region. AESA radars is the way we are going if I am not mistaken where the power req. might be reduced, hope your views trigger responses from people knowledgeable on radars
Sorry for simple question. I have gone through all the details now on radar, Indian research institutes are doing really well, and yet we import more and more radars which bothered me a lot. I am now realizing why it takes a lot time for India when it comes developing things indigenously. Given whatever the circumstances now, I think we doing really great, although there is no kind of praise or moral feel good factor for scientists either in person or newspaper compared european and american countries.
For now we are in big game where simultaneous tech import and future R and D needs to funded. If govt is not able to fund may be it should privatize. Some areas where both military and civil are involved should be privatized and foreign investment or joint ventures should be allowed, it is in best interest for our country. I hope things get solved in next 10 or 25 years.
We import because our requirements are so large, many types across many requirements. But positive part is that in many segments we now have a local presence of decent capability. Naval systems and airborne systems need more inducted types, which too will happen.
Yes indeed I have read wide range of radar equipment in service and development, I wonder what future stands for these systems, whether it is total network integration or miniaturization etc.
Apart from this there needs to be some kind of recognition either increased salary or awards or naming the equipment after the inventor needs to be done by govt or pvt sectors, other wise brain drain might happen.
Other thing current situation where we might be probably be heading (in next 5 or 10 years) is for service sector, like specific assembling of machine parts or whole machines, there is needs some leverage government needs to allow for pvt. industries, like allowing them assemble parts and sell them to other countries as well. For time being this approach might generate skilled labor as well revenue.
maybe this kind of EW radar is exactly what india needs in its north eastern front !
[Described by defense experts as the world’s most powerful land-based EWR, the 10-story-high system can detect, track, and cue as many as 1,000 long- and short-range (less than 200km-range) ballistic missiles, low-cross-section cruise missiles, and other air-breathing targets simultaneously within a range of approximately 3,000km, providing a hitherto unthinkable picture of Chinese airspace]
BTW almost continuous 24 hr surveillance of the entire Chinese airspace !
Even current height limits LOS. Aerostat radars would be preferable. More will be required on account of smaller aperture but offer redundancy. But still static and hence vulnerable. Hence ideally a mix of aerostats and AWACS, for long range sustainable surveillance without breaking the bank.
While aerostats have following points of failure - to strong winds, leaking inert gases, issues with winch/ground handling eqpt/power generation, they offer great bang for the buck.
No point in building a huge radar in NE which:
1. cant look down into "breaks" in terrain like valleys etc because of limited LOS
2. is vulnerable to an opening day strike
in short if you are building something like this, you will have to
1. locate it in an isolated area since it will be a missile target, plus it has to be at a great height for max LOS
2. defend it with several billions worth more of investment (BMD/SAMS) to protect the investment
which is why IAF is depending on a mix of LLTR, LLLWR (mountain variants both) and AWACS for NE. former can be relocated for survivability albeit those which are not in relatively inaccessible places.
even after all this there will be gaps in valleys - so they have to be "defended" at choke points by putting SAMs there.
Last edited by Karan M on 12 Dec 2013 21:26, edited 1 time in total.
Look at the Google Terrain pics and you'll see that the Himalayan ridges are around 25-26000 ft. If you station a radar, at say, Dibrugarh, it cannot peek over the ridge and into the Tibetan plateau. A strike package coming across the border through the valley folds means that the radar barely has a few mins of warning before it is under attack.
Radars like this would help where there is long line of sight, say near Kutch or even in Lakshadweep & Andamans. North east or J&K is really horrid for early warning.
It is far more effective to have aerostats in peace time and AWACS in wartime.
Look at the Google Terrain pics and you'll see that the Himalayan ridges are around 25-26000 ft. If you station a radar, at say, Dibrugarh, it cannot peek over the ridge and into the Tibetan plateau. A strike package coming across the border through the valley folds means that the radar barely has a few mins of warning before it is under attack.
Radars like this would help where there is long line of sight, say near Kutch or even in Lakshadweep & Andamans. North east or J&K is really horrid for early warning.
It is far more effective to have aerostats in peace time and AWACS in wartime.
you are right. wont a similar radar in the south provide a good dekko into almost entire IO region in real time ? or would you rather have UAVs patrolling around ?
What we need is Container type OTH Radar that has phenomenal range operates in Decameter Band ( 10 - 100 m ) and are not affected by physical obstructions mountains etc as they dont have LOS limitations like other radars do and most importantly no amount of LO target can hide it against.
DRDO should work on OTH type and deploy it along South and North to gain a good picture at long ranges.
Whereas most long-range radar systems are typically restricted in their coverage by the curvature of the earth, the Container is said to avoid this problem by reflecting its short-wave radio signals (3 to 30 MHz) off the ionosphere. These signals are then bounced back from the ground, and the process repeats itself until the signal loses its energy.
According to Russian media reports, the radar has a 3,000 km range that, when coupled with its 180° field of regard, takes in most of Europe and a large swathe of the Middle East. The same reports credit the system with being able to track airborne targets (including cruise missiles) from sea level up to 100 km (near space).
Reportedly the JORN managed to detect a B-2 flying some where in the Indian Ocean the US took part of JORN system to US to test B-2 Radar Evading Capabilities something SOC mentioned to me.
Yes, but they lack resolution to accurately predict aircraft/targets with proper heading/height/azimuth. Indicators but with a large cell that needs to be followed up by other persistent assets.
guess OT or no OT but ...as per wiki ..The JORN is so sensitive it is able to track planes as small as a Cessna 172 taking off and landing in East Timor 2600 km away. Current research is anticipated to increase its sensitivity by a factor of ten beyond this level. .. probably monitor whole of Asia !
kit wrote:guess OT or no OT but ...as per wiki ..The JORN is so sensitive it is able to track planes as small as a Cessna 172 taking off and landing in East Timor 2600 km away. Current research is anticipated to increase its sensitivity by a factor of ten beyond this level. .. probably monitor whole of Asia !
Availability of better signal processing and development on Algorithms/Software ( to reject clutter etc ) and better hardware ( sensitive receivers ) would mean over the period of time JORN would add better capability ....the wavelength would ensure that even smallest target would get detected and tracked at long ranges.
Karan M wrote:Yes, but they lack resolution to accurately predict aircraft/targets with proper heading/height/azimuth. Indicators but with a large cell that needs to be followed up by other persistent assets.
Using OTH radar was something explored for decades but thanks to limited processing ability and similar limitations on hardware , power requirement in MW and algorithm meant these radar would just be limited to provide Long Range EW and with accuracy of target defined in Km !
Today the limitations are far less apparent and even OTH radar have become modular in case of Container type ...the accuracy by these radars are in 100 meters of the target .... most certainly not good to guide any missile but good enough for aircraft and other higher resolution capability like AWACS to fine tune or do a sector search of targets.
Though I doubt even high resolution radar would be able to detect extremely LO targets like B-2 over longer ranges something that would appear like B-747 in 100 m wavelength !
Either ways my limited point was we need to explore in the areas of Meter and Decameter bands and deploy such system within a decade along the North and South to provide a good constant picture of Air Activity in these areas without having to deploy expensive asset limited by deployment time and numbers to cover.
Never seen DRDO putting up any thing in these areas and the only Meter band radar i have seen with the armed forces are the 60's era Meter Band radar .. though not sure of the backend of such system might have been improved over period of time.
Yes, good to have capability. I haven't seen any data from DRDO either that suggests OTH radars are on their horizon (pun intended)! They make the point that with limited funds available, they have to focus on immediate needs.. and are pitching for increase next year to focus on more NG programs.
Developed by NPK NIIDAR, also responsible for the 77Ya6DM Voronezh-DM BMEW radar system, Container provides extremely long-range airspace monitoring to a range of 3,000 km.
Following completion of initial development and trials, the first production system entered initial operational service on 2 December. The initial system is aligned on a bearing of 240 degrees for monitoring airspace west of Russia. A second 29B6, currently under construction in Russia's Eastern Military District, is scheduled for service entry in 2018.
The 29B6 is a bi-static system, featuring transmitter and receiver stations separated by approximately 250 km. The 440 m wide transmitter, sited near Gorodets on the outskirts of Nizhny Novgorod, incorporates 36 elements of varying configuration.
The Kovylkino receiver features a 1,300 m wide array composed of numerous 35 m tall elements. The array features three sections. The inner section is 900 m wide with 7 m spacing between elements, and is flanked on either side by a 200 m wide section with 14 m spacing.
Transmission frequency is between 3 and 30 MHz, the signal reflected off the ionosphere to provide the OTH capability. By incorporating a single signal reflection, NPK NIIDAR designers assert that accuracy is significantly improved over earlier Cold War-era OTH systems. Older OTH systems incorporated multiple signal reflections to obtain significantly greater range for the ballistic missile early warning (BMEW) role.
These days BMEW has been tasked for specialised radar operating in L band of spectrum .... like Green Pine or Sword Fish
LRDE has called out a tender for supply of a single FOPEN radar, weighing less than 150 kgs, to be mounted on Dornier and Cheetah. This seems rather odd as an indigenous FOPEN radar is under development under the aegis of Divya Chakshu. Are they preparing the platforms in advance ?
Thales and BEL have formed a JV to build the Ground Smarter (GS100) low level transportable radars (LLTR) for the IAF. The IAF has 19 of these radars on order, of which 6 will be built by Thales and the remaining 13 by BEL in India.
Also some new info on a new 4D Ashwini radar being developed by DRDO (never heard of it before) and a new RFP that may be released for a mobile air defense radar.
Indian defense ground radar requirements have driven the creation of a new Franco-Indian joint venture between Thales and Bharat Electronics (BEL), after a two-year delay. BEL-Thales Systems will enable the French company to meet Indian offset and technology transfer commitments associated with an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 19 radars.
Thales holds 26 percent of the new company, and state-owned Bharat Electronics the other 74 percent. It has been created to design, develop, market, supply and support ground-based civilian and military radars. While Thales’s main strengths are in systems engineering, integration and testing, BEL has manufactured radars for the military. Thales will supply six of the 19 Ground Smarter (GS100) low level transportable radars (LLTR) that the IAF has ordered from France, with the other 13 to be assembled in BEL's facility near Delhi in Ghaziabad. Based on the Thales SR3D, the GS100 is a mobile, modular, multifunctional radar dedicated to tracking complex target maneuvers at low altitude. It offers operational performance out to 180 km.
Meanwhile, an indigenous 4D LLTR named Ashwini, using active arrays, is being developed by the Defense Research Development Organization (DRDO) radar design laboratory. The IAF has indicated an order for 18 and a total requirement for 67 of these. It is not clear if BEL-Thales Systems will manufacture Ashwini.
In the near future, meanwhile, the IAF is likely to issue an RFP for another mobile air defense radar requirement, for which the Franco-Indian partnership will offer the ControlMaster 60 radar. In fact, this could be the first product to be rolled out of the company's facility, AIN has learned. It is optimized for mobile air defense operation with a search-on-the-move capability and for engagement of conventional and asymmetric threats in harsh environments, clutter and intense jamming conditions and simultaneous multiple engagements.
The Indian army also has a large requirement for ground radar. It has sought bids for 66 Air Defence Fire Control Radars (ADFCRs) to begin the process of replacing as many as 450 older radars in its inventory. Airbus D&S last year reported that it was one of three bidders, offering a land-based version of its naval TRD-3D radar in cooperation with Indian partner Larsen and Toubro.
The radars in BMD program. Very impressive detection range against low rcs objects.:
Is the second one same as the "Arudhra" radar displayed (picture at least) earlier at DefExpo-2014? Also what about the fire control radar for the ABM project?
Passive Surveillance System
The IAF on December 2, 2014 released a RFI for development of a Passive Surveillance System (PSS) - a ground based system to be deployed in field areas for generation of 3D Air Situation Picture (ASP), by detecting and processing chance RF spectrum emissions and EM reflections of other transmissions in the vicinity of airborne platforms.
Here are the deets excerpted from the RFI.
Overview
The PSS will intercept, process, analyze and generate all types of Radar transmissions across the complete band of Radar Operation Radio Frequency bands (30 MHz to 18 GHz).
It will provide location and dynamic tracking of airborne, surface (ground and marine), mobile and fixed targets. The system would be capable of detection, location, identification and tracking of active and passive targets within its area of coverage. The system will comprise of a cluster of sensor stations all reporting their detections simultaneously to the Master Receiving and Processing Centre which will process the information for detection of targets and formation of tracks. The system should be highly mobile, vehicle mounted with very less deployment time.
Components
The PSS system will comprise the following two systems
Passive Coherent Location Based Surveillance System to detect presence of targets using reflected RF emissions available in the environment.
Elint Based Surveillance System to detect, track, locate, correlate and identify intercepted RF emissions of the airborne platform in the area of deployment and process this information for generation of 3D Air situation picture.
Air situation picture generated in both the systems would be integrated to form a comprehensive air situation picture. The output is to be in user defined format for integration in command and control system of IAF.
Passive Coherent Location Based Surveillance System
The system would consist of a network of receivers and a master station and will generate its own 3D air situation picture without any active transmission of its own.
System capabilities required include:-
Detection of 2 sq-m RCS target at more than 300 Km of range.
Detection of targets from low level to very high altitude.
Estimating target coordinates in space namely range, azimuth, height and Doppler.
360-deg azimuth coverage.
Radar Finger Printing (RFPS) through correlation and identification of emitter with data library.
Remote operations including switching ON/OFF and operations of BITE, from an ops shelter located upto a distance of min 5 kms from system through OFC /radio link/ Satcom.
Deployment Considerations.
The system should be vehicle mounted and capable of deployed in all types of terrain including mountainous region.
Deployment of the system should be quick and mechanized requiring minimum manual intervention.
The system should be self sufficient to meet camouflaging requirements(internal camouflage).
Elint Based Surveillance System
Elint based passive system should comprise of multiple sensor stations and a control station. The system is to be capable of generating a real time 3D air situation picture based on intercepted data of airborne emitters. The system should have very high DF accuracy in terms of degree RMS for various frequency ranges.
Required system capabilities include
Large surveillance area coverage around its deployment
Capability to intercept signals from all types of radars (pulse, pulse Doppler, CW), TACAN/DME interrogator, SIF/IFF interrogator and transponder, jammers, Data link and any other electromagnetic pulse and CW emitters on airborne platform.
Very wide instantaneous Band Width (BW)
High Probability of Intercept (POI)
360-deg instantaneous Azimuth coverage
Kartik wrote:Thales and BEL have formed a JV to build the Ground Smarter (GS100) low level transportable radars (LLTR) for the IAF. The IAF has 19 of these radars on order, of which 6 will be built by Thales and the remaining 13 by BEL in India.
Also some new info on a new 4D Ashwini radar being developed by DRDO (never heard of it before) and a new RFP that may be released for a mobile air defense radar.
Ashwini is the Indian equivalent of Thales GS100 just like Arudra is Indian equivalent of El/M-2084. With the license production for El/M-2084, lots of Indian companies (Astra, HELA, Data Patterns) have started to manufacture AESA modules.
In design though both are fairly different than the other two (French/Israeli systems) though functionally they would be same (IAF would ask for same performance).
Ashwini is more or less an "AESA version" of the Rohini with a large performance gain.
Arudhra layout is similar to the MFCR for BMD but significantly different & is a gen ahead in terms of certain features and performance. Which leads me to believe base MFCR will also be upgraded.
In the field of RADARs, many new systems are coming on stream and getting inducted quietly... We have learnt to walk and are slowly getting into a running gait...in the next two-three years we would be racing ahead.
I wonder why IAF is only ordering 2? I think we need dozens of AWE&C, we have only 3 from ELTA. At least we can have some less capable but very cheap ones in high number.
.. probably monitor whole of Asia !
