Bharat Rakshak

US Marines to Get G/ATOR AESA Ground Radars

G/ATOR is actually the result of fusing two programs, the Multi-Role Radar System (MRRS) and Ground Weapons Locator Radar (GWLR) requirements. Indeed, when G/ATOR Increment IV becomes operational, it will replace and consolidate the capability of numerous legacy radars, including the AN/TPS-63 air surveillance, AN/MPQ-62 force control, AN/TPS-73 air traffic control and AN/UPS-3 air defense radar systems. A December 2005 release from Sen. Schumer's office [D-NY] adds that "Current radar performance does not meet operational forces requirements... consequences could potentially allow opposing forces to gain air and ground superiority in future operational areas."

The Humvee-mounted Ground/Air Task Oriented Radar (G/ATOR) will eventually use active electronically scanned array (AESA) technology to provide aircraft detection, tracking and engagement; cruise-missile detection and engagement; ground-weapon location; and military air-traffic control in one package. AESA radar technology is used in advanced ground radars, and also in the newest American fighter aircraft like the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-22 Raptor et. al.

Increment I supports two distinct mission areas: Short range air defense and air surveillance in tactical air operations centers (TAOC), including baseline IFF (identification, friend or foe). Its engineering will allow growth to accomodate all following increments without equipment re-design, and will provide an open architecture that allows for the computers, computer programs, and firmware to be more easily upgraded with the functionality of all following increments:

* Increment II will address the Marine Expeditionary Force counter fire/targeting missions, adding ground counter-battery and target acquisition against enemy mortars, rockets, or artillery.

* Increment III will incorporate tactical enhancements of the air mission requirements, including Mode 5/S identification friend or foe (IFF), decoy/electronic counter-counter measures capabilities, electronic protection equipment and software, non-cooperative target recognition (very useful if your F/A-18's IFF system has a problem on the way back in, as well for identifying enemies), sensor netting, an advanced radar environmental simulator (RES), and a logistics integrated data environment (IDE).

* Increment IV will incorporate an air traffic control (ATC) capability.

The US Marine Corps hopes to eventually have 63 upgraded G/ATOR Increment IV systems completed by March 2016, if all options are exercised.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/video_index.aspx?id=24

listen carefully to this interview.. gives a good idea of the progress we made in the EW systems area.. Corroborates what I have heard from the production agency guys (BEL) at AI07.. boys.. we are (silently) doing very well with the EW systems..

note these particular statements

- IAF is already using it.. it has trialled it against systems on existing a/c and it has outodne all the systems
- performed very well aganst US a/c at Kalaikunda
- India should not buy any EW systems from outside henceforth

Superb catch- the founding of DARE can be directly traced to the LCA. It was ASIEO, a part of ADE developing stuff for the LCA.

Any more details in the interview? Am on dial up..very interesting..the Americans brought F-16s and AWACs to KKD. So the deception jammers were used against them, probably the F-16s APG68s- which versions were they?
Also better than anything else...wonder if he is referring to the Elta 8222. In which case these could be more than just SPJs and might be throwing out enough power to act as escort jammers.

I think APG-68V(5).

Amazing interviews- hear the perception of local systems and tech from the horses mouth

Interview: Wing Commander Rajeev Dutta, Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment, Ministry of Defence, India

Interview: Kota Harinarayana, programme director, medium combat aircraft (former programme director & chief designer, LCA-Tejas)

Interview: Wg Cdr J S Gavankar, Senior Software Engineer (Avionics), Indian Air Force




Ajai Shukla, will get a heart attack from listening to all this...!

JCage,

The Mirage's EW suite was the only one specifically mentioned by name in the "outperformed them all" comment. The part where he talks about the Kalaikunda exercises has too much ambient noise to make out his words clearly.

As an aside, what does the Wing Commander know about aircraft? Has he read books on armoured and mechanized warfare? Has he driven tanks in the Thar desert and Punjab? No. He should do all that before talking about aircraft. Till then he is just an overgrown boy with a toy.

You forgot to mention the most important thing...does he regularly sip chai with generals and FMs?

Beer bhai, Beer. Chai biscoot for ordinary SDRE onleeee.

Spot On. I bet if DRDO employed hi-fi marketing agency, it could have solved Arjun problem long ago. But, there is one more obstacle called bribe.

Does he have scars on his head from the inside of a T72?
That is a requirement for strategic analysis

Its a good beginning. DARE is on the right path. EW systems should be indigenous. With DARE-Elisra on one hand & Alpha-Elettronica on the other hand we will should be able to speed up our journey towards cutting edge standards.

However, as far US EW systems are concerned, the ones onboard F-16s are 2 generations behind current programmes such as ALQ-214(V)2 IDECM + ALE-55 FOTD or the ones being developed for JSF.

2 generation behind means that they are from 1980s. In 1990s they had a program ALQ-165 jammer which was ultimately cancelled & whatever was produced as LRIP didn't meet performance criteria. In early to mid 1990s an IDECM programme was launched with a view of 21st Century jamming. And thats the latest from US.

With upgrades to them [old F-16/F-15 suites] the gap could have been narrowed but there still persists a generation gap in comparison with IDECM & JSF's EW system.

Two good articles on US EW systems:
http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/ar ... mber04.pdf

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/ar ... 06_EOE.pdf

EW systems especially the recent ones [IDECM, SPECTRA, EuroDASS] take a lot of time to develop. These programmes were started in 1990's and only now they are close to or have attained their final configuration/performance. It probably took a good 10 years or so for them to reach their current maturity. Hence currently collaboration on EW systems is the best way to go for india.

Even in israel, Elisra is the main supplier of EW systems. Sufa & Raam use suites from Elisra. Elta 8222 pod is roughly in the same category as "upgraded" 1980's american EW suite. Even if we can beat them today its an achievement for us. It tells us where we stand and where we ought to go. DARE-Elisra and Alpha-Elettronica will take us there. Competition between a PSU & a RUR vouches healthy future of our EW market. And with there foreign names attached our air force will be more keen in indigenous programmes than it otherwise would have been.

That means the Tempest/RWR combo outperformed the RF component of the ICMS in the Mirage 2000. Not bad at all.



I know, I know! How can he compare to The Ajai (tm.)

Elisra wont provide IP but subsystems imho. And Alpha-Elettronica is a way to bypass the usual gateways for tech transfer at PSU level. Time will tell..



Fair enough- but the point is that the all important algos and s/w have to be done in India..



The Raam uses 8222 pods as well.



I doubt this, its superior by far. It beat out US pods for the Aussie F-111 tender as well.



A-E is not a RUR as of yet, and competition is fine, but preference has to be given to funding of local programs.



Thats the problem!

no, it was audible what he said..he said that the USAF was "pleasantly" surprised to see that the IAF fighters were able to identify them before they could identify the IAF fighters..

in his exact words "we could pick up the American F-16s much stronger than they could pick up..so probably it has sent a message to them that..look..they were pleasantly surprised to see that we have systems of that kind..with our air force..

and whats this nonsense about the Wing Cmdr having to drive tanks in the Thar desert ? and why on earth would he have to do that to talk about aircraft ?!

Lets hope we are able to get most of what we desire/need to. We have a massive defense budget and a growing economy, hopefully our people play the cards right way at the negotiating table. Cooperation with israel in EW has benefitted Australia [see below]. As per reports, DARE-Elisra is $100 million JV, 70 mil from india & 30 mil from Israel. I believe we will be getting good amount of goodies there.



Oh yes software that controls jamming techniques generation using a DRFM & Expert System [Artificial Intelligence] will be done by India.

To begin with latest generation DRFM, MMICs & Digital ICs can be sourced from outside, but eventually these too have to be produced totally indigenously, unless Israel wants to establish something along the lines of UMS joint venture between Thales & EADS.




AFAIK, the improved Baz uses 8222 pods. Raam uses Elisra supplied EW system. F-16C/D Barak uses EL/M 8247/8 system while Sufa uses Elisra's system.

Its interesting to note that Elisra was approached by Elettronica for designing a support/escort/stand-off jammer intended to be used with Eurofighter Typhoon.

It gives me a feeling that Elisra maybe is better than Elta as far as EW systems are concerned, even though elta is the radar powerhouse.



But as far as i remember Elta's pod was choosen as an interim EW upgrade and not as a permanent solution.

http://www.terma.dk/multimedia/Terma_To ... e_2001.pdf

"EL/L-8222 Electronics Countermeasures Pod and AN/ALQ-213(V)Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS). The integration was
performed at the Elta facility as part of the Royal Australian Air Force(RAAF) Air Project 5391 Phase Six Ã

You must have better hearing than I do. All I could make out was him saying that the EW systems did extremely well in the Kalaikunda exercises and that the Americans were surprised to see the IAF with equipment of such caliber.



Sarcastic joke boss, sarcastic joke. You were obviously not around when His Highness Ajai Shukla blessed the forum with his arrogant condescension.

naah, just very good headphones !


haah..for a while I was wondering what was happening to BR's better posters..sorry I did'nt get the sarcasm. but I was around when His Highness descended on the forum and got his ass whooped..does'nt show up anymore does he..

I think he has gotten too busy polishing-up his Broad(and blunted)Sword.

Mind you, thats great VR from Defense News figures picked up by others. OTOH DRDO at Ai-2007 said Mayawi was a DRDO project with assistence not JV. So lets see. Given Ramalingams statements- we asked everyone but this is not something others will share, I think EW is going to be a homegrown effort.





We make DRFM in India using COTs stuff like most of the western bloc. We reached that milestone some seven years back.








You are correct- those names are too hard for me to remember. Whats the Raam? F15I? And the Baz is the upgraded earlier F-15, right?



Generally, if a company is excellent at radars, it would know how to spoof them the best as well. I think Elisra is a niche player, so its more responsive to JVs and codevelopment- remember its not always about tech, its also about funding and access to the same. Elta has several product lines to support it. Elisra is more focused, and hence more vulnerable as well.






That interim is "naam ke waste"-- the F111s will use the 8222 till they retire. Plus the 8222 was chosen over its peers.



http://www.terma.dk/multimedia/Terma_To ... e_2001.pdf

"EL/L-8222 Electronics Countermeasures Pod and AN/ALQ-213(V)Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS). The integration was
performed at the Elta facility as part of the Royal Australian Air Force(RAAF) Air Project 5391 Phase Six Ã

That's what I thought too.... guess I missed the sarcasm bit as well!

No no, add to it a broken chin and a TFTA women executive editor to make it a complete FARCE editor who is a strategic analyist, missiles expert, avionics expert, aviation expert, tank expert, ship expert, submarine expert, radar expert, economic expert, spy expert, software expert ..... ... .. . . a refuge for defense secret bean spillers, liars and plagiarists.

Welcome to FARCE magazine, not even good for musharraf cleaning.

Ajai Shukla told a lot of folks, including some who outranked him, on this very board that he knew more than they ever would and proceeded to lay out his T-72 experiences as being the key determiner. The end result has been the use of the above imagery in every discussion to determine the real expert.

No wonder/irony/coincidence that his blog is named BroadSword..

the acronym for that (very very befittingly) would be.. BraodSword = BS !!

Meanwhile,

Northrop Grumman Delivers 100th Radar for the U.S. Air Force's F-22 Raptor

http://www.primenewswire.com/newsroom/n ... l?d=118742

BAE Systems tests radar-based obstacle detection system for military helicopters

WAYNE, N.J., 11 May 2007. BAE Systems has completed flight testing of a prototype lightweight, all-weather cable and obstacle detection system. The system uses radar to identify cables and other obstacles and provides precise altimeter information to military helicopter pilots.

Cable and obstacles are common causes of helicopter accidents. BAE Systems is the first company to demonstrate a lightweight, cost-effective all weather cable detection system.

Is the EL/M-2083 radar mounted on the aerostats, an AESA or PESA??

aesa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AESA#Airborne_systems

Hope these are not serious problems!!!!!!!!

Good stuff, now IAF should be a little good boy and work with DRDO to work on over the horizon Cruise missile defence system using Aerostat radars.

The C41 system to fuse all the required sensor Data and fed into the counter-measure system be it LR-SAM or Decoys, should be the first step in tha direction to produce latter Aerostats inhouse.

Attended a seminar in Khandahaar. A firangi company with just 60 people using 40GHz & 60GHz millimeter wave for point to point multi gigagbit communication rate, obviating the need to gid and lay fiber cable in metro-network. Large patch array for beam forming.

Sumulink/Matlab used for system modeling and design, including margin analysis; over -40 to +70C

LRDE working on Rajendra III radar

Pretty informative article.

I havent heard about Rajendra three by googling, any internal sources?

Look in the MOD report under the DRDO section.

http://www.nal.res.in/oldhome/pages/pdf/dr02.pdf

and one can get some info on the ABM tracking & targeting system used in PAD.

I was reading(15th time) the detail report by B Harry about LCA, which appears to be old. Threre is no other reccent credible LCA update available.

I was surprised by all the claims made about LCA's MMR. If the MMR is not functional and operational, then how can one make all the claims or capabilities of the radar and FCS? Rather it should be labelled as SPECs instead of capabilities? The new APG69(V) appears to have higher range and better than MMR, which PAKi's will be getting them.

I am also not sure about Kaveri's status? Whether French are involved or still in Limbo ( as usual the Indian Govt, MOD and organizations have trouble making decisions)? I see conflicting reports in different articles.

The LCA on paper looks like the best aircraft on the earth in its class.Then on the other hand every one exaggerates things and claims of the product which they make. Like American car's ( Ford, GM and Chrysler's) SPECS are better or similar to Mercedes and BMWs. Only after you drive and own them you see the difference.

Regards,

DSingh.

It is interesting to see that MMR is put down as JV in PAC reports, which makes me wonder, if we have tied up with Israel for a development path for MMR. Something like 3-4 ELTA radar, then MMR and then AESA MMR radar

We need to define JV clearly. If its not going to be an indigenous effort, why spend money in such a transition. its better to do AESA-MMR. OTOH, if Elta is only just helping us only on a few of the software /hardware critical issues, then we can just pay them consulting fees., and we could proceed LCA-MMR->AESA-MMR., since 95% of it is indigenous.

imho, if LCA-MMR did fail, like Kaveri, we better ToT for 2052s direct. The cost of help in making the LCA-MMR is not worth (if it needs Elta's help for more 10% of the project cost).. rather a direct ToT for 2052s would jump start things.

and, IAF would luv it too.