Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Aditya_V
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

NRao wrote:
Singha wrote:the only party who havent shafted us yet is brazil - but give it some time.
FMS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry! Apples to Oranges, what we have bought through FMS are systems which aldready in use by US DOD for many years and Ending up paying the Highest cost. See our C-130 and C-17 acquisition costs (with what other countries have paid for them) and M-777 expected order value.

It looks like all FMS deals are shafting us on cost for existing tech.

I doubt P-8I is FMS, which is a really good deal.
Victor
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Victor »

IAI had said a year ago that we could have the off-the-shelf G550 Eitam much sooner and cheaper while retaining at least the same capability and range of the earlier Phalcon. Even if we stick some desi components in it, that will still be a better deal now. Maybe we can get 3 for the price of 2--if we have the cash. Of course it will come at a logistical cost but that's the price for indecision.
Cybaru
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

We really need to follow through and get another three of the same platform. Adding three of this and three of that just hurts our uptime/maintaince and availablilty.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

How do we know the difference between the cost of the carrier aircraft ( Il 76) and Phalcon radar it self?
Victor
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Victor »

Cybaru wrote:We really need to follow through and get another three of the same platform. Adding three of this and three of that just hurts our uptime/maintaince and availablilty.
True in an ideal world. But even if we took a decision to follow through today, it may be 4-8 years before we get another Il-76 based phalcon. Chinpak may not wait for us to complete the order or for DRDO to finish their radar testing. Bottom line, we need to stop the sickening pattern of making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Cybaru
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Victor,

What are our options today ? Any platform we choose will take between 3-4 years from time of order. Why add another platform when we can work and get il-76 based systems going. This would be an amply good opportunity for Russia to sell another 3-5 il-76 (zero timed airframes) or new build il-476 for AEW platform and keep everything common. Operations and training will become so much easier for IAF. Your pilots/crew/ground staff/planning all is now common.

if you add in new G550 then that will have different set of consoles, different roles will need to be defined on what it can and cannot accomplish. Different deployment strategies. Crew that is certified on G550 cannot interachange on the other il/embrarer systems. Upgrading each type will be a mess; recertifying will be even more painful. All in all it is going to be basis for new mess.
Vivek K
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Our lack of attention to national security is disturbing.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

the G550 might be able to carry the same phalcon radar or some derivative in planar side arrays, but can it accomodate the 13 consoles and spare crew that the phalcon can?
IAI should have no problem if we can find the IL76 airframes and money. we dont seem to have done either though :(
Cybaru
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

If need be we should zero time and completely refurb two of our own transport Il-76 which are in bad shape and send it off to IAI to be phalconised.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

No way a G550 will have payload/capacity or airtime that an il-76 can bring.
Victor
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Victor »

The G550 Phalcon has the same radars as our Phalcon but with upgraded capabilities in a more compact package. The Israelis took this opportunity to install them in a faster, smaller and nimbler aircraft that is cheaper to operate and presents a smaller target without sacrificing performance or range. If we get more AWACS, we will be using these newer radars instead of the older ones and it does not make a lot of sense to stick them into a lumbering old airframe with or without the chapati.

If the issue of commonality is bigger than getting these AWACS in the quickest and cheapest way, it would actually make more sense to use the ERJ-145 that the IAF and BSF already use and will use for the desi AWACS instead of the Gulfstream as it is bigger and would house any extra stuff we may want. That way, all our AWACS--desi and foreign--can use the same platform.

In either case, the Il-76 based AWACS should be history.
Cybaru
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Victor,

I disagree with what you are saying. I think AWACS of all things require power/space/cooling/range/extra-crew/space for other special ops every now and then. None of these platforms provide what is required.
rajanb
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rajanb »

Embraer delivers first AEW&C Aircraft to India

http://idrw.org/

17 Aug 2012

SOURCE: Embraer PR
Embraer Defense and Security today delivered the first EMB 145 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) class of aircraft to the Government of India, in a ceremony held at Embraer’s headquarters in São José dos Campos, Brazil. The delivery follows successful completion of ground and flight tests of the aircraft which met operational targets established by both Embraer and Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) of Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). Later on the aircraft will be delivered to the Indian Air Force after integration of missions systems of DRDO by CABS in India.
“The collaboration with DRDO in such a complex program strengthens the ties between Brazil and India”, said Luiz Carlos Aguiar, President & CEO of Embraer Defense and Security. “We are very proud to meet the expectations of our clients in providing CABS, DRDO with this platform.”

“This EMB 145 AEW&C features major capabilities such as in-flight refueling system, significant increase in electric and cooling capacity and a comprehensive set of structural changes to which will allow the installation of the advanced mission systems that have been developed by India’s CABS (Centre for Air Borne Systems) along with its work centers of DRDO”, said Dr. Elangovan, Chief Controller R&D (Avionics & Aero) of DRDO.

“The success of this programme is the symbol of cooperation between India and Brazil”, said Dr. Christopher Programme Director AEW&C and Director CABS. “The airborne Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) designed and developed by CABS, is now flying on top of this modified Embraer aircraft is one example of such cooperation. CABS, DRDO will integrate all other mission systems in India and deliver it to Indian Air Force”.

Remaining AEW&C aircraft are due to be delivered to the Indian Air Force as part of a contract signed in 2008 that includes a comprehensive package for training, technical support, spare parts, and ground support equipment. These aircraft, upon entry-into-service, will join four Embraer Legacy 600 jets – currently operated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for the transportation of Indian government officials and foreign dignitaries – and a fifth Embraer Legacy 600 which belongs to the Border Security Force (BSF), under India’s Home Ministry.
JTull
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Hope DRDO can install the equipment quickly and get the bird out for testing. They had plenty of time to prepare for this day. If the results are promising then (Inshah Allah) we can order few more of these birds. Would be a shame to stop after just 3, esp as they invested good deal of time in helping Embraer to modify them (wonder who owns the IP). I hear Emb is already touting the aircraft to other customers.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

Embraer already had a similar working design for the Brazilian Ereyie, its not anything new for them. its called R99A and first flew in 1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99 no evidence of satcom housing or AAR
our model has added the flat side housings and few other bumps

our homie looks more customized and heavier than the very basic civilian looking plane R99A
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-cont ... ATFORM.jpg
vic
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by vic »

I think DRDO should start working with Embraer for Chappati top radome for next series of AWACS, on a bigger platform like EMB-195
Nikhil T
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

vic wrote:I think DRDO should start working with Embraer for Chappati top radome for next series of AWACS, on a bigger platform like EMB-195
DRDO already has it in pipeline - though not with Embraer.

AWACS- India Project
SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

long over due.. need to ramp up on AWACs.. we need at least a dozen.
Indranil
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

I don't know much about AWACs and would love to learn here.

Even if we went for a bigger platform (for space), why not go for conformal antennas? Makes more aerodynamic sense.
SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

conformal do not provide 360* coverage. even with chappati, we need under the belly one. yes, conformal means we need very similar to the embraer one, plus side lobes, rear and under the belly needs integration. it could be very complex in terms of radar signal processing I guess.

May be we need dedicated computing setup for each antenna array lobe. Then, a distributed computing that analyzes threats from each node., and aggregates them with an integrated solution.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

the only non moving solns that guarantee 360' scan with some overlap is the MESA T-shape of wedgetail (essentially a long radar and a perpendicular short radar) and the triangle inside the phalcon.
putnanja
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Singha wrote:Embraer already had a similar working design for the Brazilian Ereyie, its not anything new for them. its called R99A and first flew in 1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99 no evidence of satcom housing or AAR
our model has added the flat side housings and few other bumps

our homie looks more customized and heavier than the very basic civilian looking plane R99A
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-cont ... ATFORM.jpg
The Brazilian R99 seems to have more windows similar to the civilian version, whereas the DRDO version has just three windows for passengers. Wonder why they had to reduce the number of windows.
kit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by kit »

putnanja wrote:
Singha wrote:Embraer already had a similar working design for the Brazilian Ereyie, its not anything new for them. its called R99A and first flew in 1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99 no evidence of satcom housing or AAR
our model has added the flat side housings and few other bumps

our homie looks more customized and heavier than the very basic civilian looking plane R99A
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-cont ... ATFORM.jpg
The Brazilian R99 seems to have more windows similar to the civilian version, whereas the DRDO version has just three windows for passengers. Wonder why they had to reduce the number of windows.
Because they have a radar to look out (for) :)
rajanb
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by rajanb »

The Embraer is due in Bangalore next week.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
Military sources told Express that the AEW&C was expected to leave Brazil on August 18 and reach HAL airport next week.
:D :D
anand_sankar
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by anand_sankar »

The Embraer arriving is good news, but doesn't mask the fact that they are a decade behind schedule w.r.t requirements. Like the Navy is lagging behind on warship acquisition to complement its aircraft carrier(s), the IAF has seriously neglected force multipliers in its acquisitions. We are basically rebuilding a new airforce (read new trainers, new light, medium and heavy fighters, new aircraft on all transport and helicopter classes...) and the force multipliers have not grown in proportion.

The argument that we must add lots of AEW (Embraer) type aircraft instead of the bigger IL-76 Phalcon's is totally wrong. We need numbers on both classes proportionately and desperately.

In today's battlefield, airborne platforms have the highest probability of survival, and a commander needs a composite picture of the entire battlespace, you cannot parcel it out as the north, north-east and west are priority and we can be in the dark elsewhere. Assets will be devoted where the threat is greater, but you need assets everywhere.

Ideally, we are looking at five commands of the IAF and from a force planning perspective each must have two Phalcon's with the higher threat NAC, WAC and EAC, having three each. That is 13 in total with the Tri-service ANC getting one or two more, thats a sum of 15.

Why the Phalcons or similar sized platform? These commands have huge areas and responsibilities and the commander overseeing this has to handle multiple threats and task the huge force that he has at his disposal. Only big platforms with enough operator consoles and ability to loiter for a minimum of 10 hours can handle this. An airbone post such as this is not merely a function of the range of the radar. Further this effort needs to be maintained 24x7 without gaps in coverage which would be fatal. These posts will get maximum protection and at all costs cannot be lost in a battle.

By a simple rule of thumb we will need 3 to 4 EM-145 sized AEW/ELINT/Jammer for every Phalcon-sized post. These will be used at tactical discretion by the area commander to either fill gaps in coverage or act as forward deployed nodes. They will be used in areas where the command post can't go as adequate protection cannot be given. So we are looking at 60 AEW/ELINT/Jammer aircraft.

These aircraft will be responsible for a huge geographical spread and controlling over 600 combat aircraft. And of course we need tankers, thats a story in itself. Throw in a minimum of 25 tankers to keep everyone fuelled and happy.

This is not a jingo dream, but a reality of what faces us by 2025 if we have to stay relevant in the conventional battlefield and we are woefully going to fall short. This is typical of what I have seen across work, life etc... In India we don't realise big plans need big backing. It is time to write those cheques, and there isn't money in the bank to cash them.
kit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by kit »

The phalcons india got are highly customised., hence the cost.Expect good news of new phalcons after december.
Singha
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

and dont get me started on the lack of JSTARs. tibet is tailormade for long range GMTI/SAR/ISAR sweeps by heavy platforms like global hawk or manned jstars, followed by air/missile strikes. the depth of the battle against enemy can be extended many 100s of kms behind the front in any type of weather condition. heavy combat needs heavy logistics, if we can track the movement and storage of logistical and strike units upto say 400km behind the front, its like having a real time window into enemy intentions. we either disrupt or destroy as we can.

the EMB145 had better lose the roof antenna and evolve into a desi JSTARs real soon. the Israelis have something on Gulfstream jet iirc and Brazil also has a SAR version of R99 which however is likely low powered and austere. we can perhaps do a local + israel thing on this one, since Astor used raytheon radar which is a boo boo for strategic platforms.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Singha wrote:the EMB145 had better lose the roof antenna and evolve into a desi JSTARs real soon. the Israelis have something on Gulfstream jet iirc and Brazil also has a SAR version of R99 which however is likely low powered and austere. we can perhaps do a local + israel thing on this one, since Astor used raytheon radar which is a boo boo for strategic platforms.
http://www.projectsmonitor.com/detailne ... wsid=15510
Raytheon's ‘battle plan’ for India
Exactly a year ago US defence major Raytheon Company announced that it would focus on India as a strategic market and seek technology partnerships with Indian companies. Soon thereafter, Raytheon signed a memorandum of understanding with the strategic electronics division of Tata Power Company. A few months later, the company tied up with Larsen & Toubro Ltd for a medium multi-role combat aircraft programme. Last week, Raytheon signed a pact with Precision Electronics Ltd of Noida, Uttar Pradesh, for joint development of superior communications technology for the military.
According to Raytheon Company, a critical element of its integrated air dominance approach for India is the family of active electronically scanned array radars, advanced targeting systems, sensor-to-weapon interoperability, integrated electronic warfare capability, and electro-optical/infrared and laser systems.
In fact, Raytheon wants to bring in the whole caboodle of defence and aerospace products. At Aero India 2007 in Bangalore, the company showcased products from several of its divisions—Missile Systems, Space and Airborne Systems, Integrated
Raytheon Sentinel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel
.The Raytheon Sentinel is a Bombardier Global Express modified as an airborne battlefield and ground surveillance platform for the British Royal Air Force. Originally known as the ASTOR (Airborne STand-Off Radar) programme the aircraft is operated by a RAF squadron manned by both air force and army personnel. The Sentinel is interoperable with other allied systems such as JSTARS and the NATO Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) system
SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Why not partner with cassidian GaN based AESA radar? their naval trs-4d is the first surveillance radar with GaN tech. It would be easier then for air borne one to be done all home grown. It could be little pricey, but nice technology to pay for. double benefit of getting them into LCA Mk2++

Raytheon will give solutions.. but what we need is parts to create our own solutions.
Rishirishi
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

Singha wrote:I am extremely skeptical of the 1.5 yr timeline given for first flight with radar to project completion...the stuff is not flying yet in another testbed.

in the commercial sector, much smaller products which would not be more than 10% of whats involved here have 18 month test cycles.

they should learn to give some honest timelines....my estimate to get the 1st one FOCed from first flight, through multiple sw and hw revisions would be in 3-4 yr range BEST CASE...5-6 yrs AVG CASE. we have zero prior experience in airborne command posts of any hue to fall back on. phalcon and p8I feature imported kit.

case in point - the US tried to merge the JSTARS, AWACS and space based sensors into a 'paul revere' == M2CA a/c and gave up after a while due to very low MTBF of complex mission sensors. this inspite of having so many building blocks , decades of prior exp, the best talent pool for the job and vast funding.

look how a deceptively simple project like the IJT is dragging on and on...
Imagine an "honest timeline" for LCA, Arjun and the rest of the stuff.....

India needs to look at the management of its PSU's
kit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Jhujar wrote:
Singha wrote:the EMB145 had better lose the roof antenna and evolve into a desi JSTARs real soon. the Israelis have something on Gulfstream jet iirc and Brazil also has a SAR version of R99 which however is likely low powered and austere. we can perhaps do a local + israel thing on this one, since Astor used raytheon radar which is a boo boo for strategic platforms.
http://www.projectsmonitor.com/detailne ... wsid=15510
Raytheon's ‘battle plan’ for India
Exactly a year ago US defence major Raytheon Company announced that it would focus on India as a strategic market and seek technology partnerships with Indian companies. Soon thereafter, Raytheon signed a memorandum of understanding with the strategic electronics division of Tata Power Company. A few months later, the company tied up with Larsen & Toubro Ltd for a medium multi-role combat aircraft programme. Last week, Raytheon signed a pact with Precision Electronics Ltd of Noida, Uttar Pradesh, for joint development of superior communications technology for the military.
According to Raytheon Company, a critical element of its integrated air dominance approach for India is the family of active electronically scanned array radars, advanced targeting systems, sensor-to-weapon interoperability, integrated electronic warfare capability, and electro-optical/infrared and laser systems.
In fact, Raytheon wants to bring in the whole caboodle of defence and aerospace products. At Aero India 2007 in Bangalore, the company showcased products from several of its divisions—Missile Systems, Space and Airborne Systems, Integrated
Raytheon Sentinel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel
.The Raytheon Sentinel is a Bombardier Global Express modified as an airborne battlefield and ground surveillance platform for the British Royal Air Force. Originally known as the ASTOR (Airborne STand-Off Radar) programme the aircraft is operated by a RAF squadron manned by both air force and army personnel. The Sentinel is interoperable with other allied systems such as JSTARS and the NATO Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) system
Raytheon Sentinel lost out on a contract for the NTRO/RAW requirement for surveillance aircraft that finally went to Israel.They did try to put a spanner into the process by complaining to MOD.Cost wise the israelis were cheaper for a almost similar if not better capability
Manish_Sharma
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SaiK wrote:Why not partner with cassidian GaN based AESA radar? their naval trs-4d is the first surveillance radar with GaN tech. It would be easier then for air borne one to be done all home grown. It could be little pricey, but nice technology to pay for. double benefit of getting them into LCA Mk2++

Raytheon will give solutions.. but what we need is parts to create our own solutions.
How would be Sukhoi Superjet for new platform? With its newly develped fuel sipping engines made jointly by russian-french collaboration. Its a modern jet with FBW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Sup ... 0#Variants

I feel with combo of GaN based AESA would be good.
Indranil
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:conformal do not provide 360* coverage. even with chappati, we need under the belly one. yes, conformal means we need very similar to the embraer one, plus side lobes, rear and under the belly needs integration. it could be very complex in terms of radar signal processing I guess.

May be we need dedicated computing setup for each antenna array lobe. Then, a distributed computing that analyzes threats from each node., and aggregates them with an integrated solution.
Singha wrote:the only non moving solns that guarantee 360' scan with some overlap is the MESA T-shape of wedgetail (essentially a long radar and a perpendicular short radar) and the triangle inside the phalcon.
Not true. Please read about the Eitam CAEW. It was the basis of my question.
Avinandan
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Avinandan »

I had posted this newbie question earlier in newbie thread, couldn't get any response there, hence reposting here.

Could IAF review Brazilian Erieyes and compare their performances with the indigenous CABS AEW?
India could pay some money (as a secret part of the package) for the 13 ERJ-145s that we are buying from Brazil or atleast return the favour by sharing comparative performance figures of our CABS AEW.
Image
Aditya_V
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Avinandan, if there are such secret deals, if would not be 'secret" if it was public No? so from public domain the answer is we do not know
kit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by kit »

the reverse can also happen.(Didnt PK buy some missiles from Brazil some time back ?)
SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

that is a cheap-o way of conducting nation's strategic and defence interests. if you have issues, then set your parameters and specifications by requirements - needs and wants.
nakul
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by nakul »

It is a nice way to conduct business if both parties trust each other. According to some posts, Israel tested the efficacy of Barak-8 against a Yakhont type missile. This can only happen when the trust levels are high. But electronic warfare might be too important to be shared with even the closest friends. Anyway, Brazil - Indian military relations are no where that close.

I read in Wikipedia that Brazil was against Goa's liberation. The relations between India & Brazil were quite frigid until recently the IBSA & BRICS were realized. We still have along way to go.
SaiK
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

What I am saying you would lose trust, once you do that in public.
member_23370
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Isn't brazil helping train chinese pilots on their carrier? I remember seeing some news regarding that. Here goes

http://alterdestiny.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... naval.html
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