Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Badar
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Badar »

From what I have read they are not removing the SAR/ISAR modes - just degrading them for a "monkey" version that is useless for littoral/overland applications. Since the limitations are enforced flexibly through software the periscope search feature will be left alone and should work fine.

Degrading SAR precision to greater than 3 foot renders it irrelevant for overland targets without severely degrading it for maritime use (ships are much larger than AFV/trucks). Similarly they are removing the Ultra High Resolution (UHR) ISAR modes; presumably some ISAR capability will be retained for manual NCTR. With the full precision modes those radars can tell you which ship got hit where as well as what damaged was caused, all at standoff ranges. IN aircraft won't be capable of that kind of resolutions which is fine I guess.

US is ensuring through technological means that the P-8I remains a purely naval asset. i.e. No sudden appearance of the P-8I near Punjab border acting as a mini-JSTARS cuing PGMs. Which is fine so far as the IN is concerned. The other CNI "removals" are probably because of the Indian middle finger to CISMOA and again no great loss.

My view is that the P-8I is not significantly shortchanged in its advertised role for the IN - LRMP/ASW.

Air to air mode is intriguing. Useful to have no doubt but I am having a hard time coming up with use cases where paying extra for it is worth it for an LRMP aircraft. Periodic air scan for self defense when in the suspected vicinity of enemy carrier based aviation? Search for UAV? ASW Helo?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Badar wrote:From what I have read they are not removing the SAR/ISAR modes - just degrading them for a "monkey" version that is useless for littoral/overland applications. Since the limitations are enforced flexibly through software the periscope search feature will be left alone and should work fine.
I don't know, it doesn't appear to have it, but perhaps you know more.
Badar wrote:Degrading SAR precision to greater than 3 foot renders it irrelevant for overland targets without severely degrading it for maritime use (ships are much larger than AFV/trucks). Similarly they are removing the Ultra High Resolution (UHR) ISAR modes; presumably some ISAR capability will be retained for manual NCTR. With the full precision modes those radars can tell you which ship got hit where as well as what damaged was caused, all at standoff ranges. IN aircraft won't be capable of that kind of resolutions which is fine I guess.
The P-8I radar still has excellent resolution. What the UHR ISAR modes will provide is more detail about the target, which is very useful for a number of purposes.

Badar wrote:US is ensuring through technological means that the P-8I remains a purely naval asset. i.e. No sudden appearance of the P-8I near Punjab border acting as a mini-JSTARS cuing PGMs. Which is fine so far as the IN is concerned. The other CNI "removals" are probably because of the Indian middle finger to CISMOA and again no great loss.

To do this, you would need to have very good ground clutter maps in order to distinguish targets from terrain features. It would also involve extensively modifying the scan strategy for ground clutter. Even if the P-8I had the resolution, getting the clutter maps made for this radar is a task, which I don't think are available for test or deployment yet even for the USAF. Otherwise we would have had some news from the US about the P-8S variant in testing.
Badar wrote:My view is that the P-8I is not significantly shortchanged in its advertised role for the IN - LRMP/ASW.
I agree.
Badar wrote:Air to air mode is intriguing. Useful to have no doubt but I am having a hard time coming up with use cases where paying extra for it is worth it for an LRMP aircraft. Periodic air scan for self defense when in the suspected vicinity of enemy carrier based aviation? Search for UAV? ASW Helo?
Perhaps to provide surveillance over the seas to protect assets like "Bombay High" about 160 Km from the coast which provides 12-14% of India's oil.
I could see it being useful for providing AWACs type capability over the ocean and the Phalcon for use over land. We don't know Phalcon's capability in maritime conditions.
The cost is would be software development to optimize the scan strategy and clutter maps for A-to-A mode and extensive system integration testing. Its a one time cost that can be applied to the entire fleet that can also be applied to future aircraft. Once its developed for the IN, then its available to other Raytheon customers, but now the IN has a working relationship with Raytheon and IMHO that is also quite valuable.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 25 Feb 2012 12:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

how are we supposed to know who said what ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

^^^ :rotfl:
Mort Walker wrote: Air to air mode is intriguing. Useful to have no doubt but I am having a hard time coming up with use cases where paying extra for it is worth it for an LRMP aircraft. Periodic air scan for self defense when in the suspected vicinity of enemy carrier based aviation? Search for UAV? ASW Helo?
It is intriguing indeed. Most probably for finding and tracking other LRMP/ASW Helos. The high-priced buys of Vik carrier (without a cat, that is nice to have for serious land attack or an offensive air-war) and this long loiter P8I seems to be to keep the seas around a friendly SSBN sanitized of threats. Maybe a revised version of the Bastion strategy of USSR. Considering we are not yet there with just the Thin Ladies in the tubes, the SSBNs need some help in far-off seas.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

self defence against fighter intercepts is also definitely useful...these long legged birds will usually operate on their own. a F-16 could likely detect the emissions of the P8I from 300-400km away and track it on radar from 150km away.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

What about fleet defense, with Agosta's capable of firing low flying exocets, P3C's firing Harpoons etc, a long range detection of Aircraft and CM will be very useful for the IN, today the only assets the IN has is Ka 31, doubt the IL 38 or TU 142 can detect Ariel threats at long range.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Badar »

hnair, I think you are onto something about the A2A mode for supporting a bastion. P-8I will be able to simultaneously scan for surface, sub-surface and aerial threats in an area. From that perspective, however mediocre it's A2A capability, it is none the less an asset.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

pls see my post in the indian missiles thread. a wild theory could be we are planning a initial bastion in the deep water trench area that lies along the eastern rim of the A&N island chain and extends further down past sumatra.

this is directly within supporting distance of IAF and IN bases in the islands and a short ride from the eastern coast main sub base (vizag or rambilli)
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Badar »

Singha wrote:pls see my post in the indian missiles thread. a wild theory could be we are planning a initial bastion in the deep water trench area that lies along the eastern rim of the A&N island chain and extends further down past sumatra.

this is directly within supporting distance of IAF and IN bases in the islands and a short ride from the eastern coast main sub base (vizag or rambilli)
Very interesting. This is what I think would make a good bastion. Would you say the area you identified satisfies the following?

[1] Be secure. Viz Tightly monitored/controlled ingress points specially with respect to the greatest threats - subs. Ability to blanket the areas with superior numbers (by being close to friendly bases) of air, sea and sub defense assets. Waters that favor ASW rather than the subs themselves (since the primary motivation for a bastion is acknowledgement of friendly forces undersea inferiority).

[2] Be reachable. The boomer force should have safe passage from bases to operating areas without detection or interdiction. i.e. the bastion ingress-withdrawal routes should be as safe as the bastion itself.

[3] Allow full exploitation of safe guarded assets from within the bastion. Boomer weapons must be able to reach all desired targets from within the bastion.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

I think the area I described certainly satisfies [1] and [2] nicely among all other areas in our littorals. ofcourse it does not have tight chokepoints like the white sea but then nothing apart from chilka lake does!

the andaman sea-thailand-malaysia area is relatively shallow while still having sufficiently deep waters. we can build a chain of ASW helicopter and a few LRMP bases to lock down the A&N region end to end with help from the mainland like tambaram close at hand also. shallow water will impede enemy SSNs and we can certainly station enough fighters to defeat any ship or LRMP threat starting from car nicobar.

[3] has the 1800km story I posted. if we deployed the K4 with 4000km range pretty much all of PRC would be in range barring a couple of north east provinces. distance from port blair to beijing is 3800 and shanghai is 3000.

once we get better SSBN-SSN forces, the vast empty reaches of the middle and southern IOR is open to us.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

it would not be a closed bastion but more a open challenge bastion like presumably the waters around murmansk or pearl harbour are. as Mithunda would say:

"kisi <snip> mein dum hai, ki yaha aa ke kuch kar sakey?"
Last edited by Rahul M on 29 Feb 2012 18:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language saarji. phamily phorum and all.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by pushkar.bhat »

Singha wrote:it would not be a closed bastion but more a open challenge bastion like presumably the waters around murmansk or pearl harbour are. as Mithunda would say:

"kisi mai ka lal ke gaand mein dum hai, ki yaha aa ke kuch kar sakey?"
Sir please mind the words even if you are quoting someone else.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Cross posting from Military Safety thread. Read this:
They were picked up by a SAR helicopter shortly thereafter and transferred to the military hospital in Gwalior.
from

http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... oomed.html

There was so much R&Dh over why our SAR equipped aircraft are incapable of picking up wreckages in the Himalayas or YSR's helicopter. Well - here is one success & a crucial one at that (the pilots needed to be found fairly quickly in case they were injured).
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by narmad »

Prem Kumar wrote:Cross posting from Military Safety thread. Read this:
They were picked up by a SAR helicopter shortly thereafter and transferred to the military hospital in Gwalior.
from

http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... oomed.html

There was so much R&Dh over why our SAR equipped aircraft are incapable of picking up wreckages in the Himalayas or YSR's helicopter. Well - here is one success & a crucial one at that (the pilots needed to be found fairly quickly in case they were injured).
mmmmmmm
So the SAR helicopter is
a.> {Search and Rescue} Helicotper ?
b.> { Synthetic-aperture radar Equipped} Helicotper ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

Prem Kumar wrote:Cross posting from Military Safety thread. Read this:
They were picked up by a SAR helicopter shortly thereafter and transferred to the military hospital in Gwalior.
from

http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... oomed.html

There was so much R&Dh over why our SAR equipped aircraft are incapable of picking up wreckages in the Himalayas or YSR's helicopter. Well - here is one success & a crucial one at that (the pilots needed to be found fairly quickly in case they were injured).
I think SAR here stands for "Search and Rescue".
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

<deleted>
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 28 Feb 2012 01:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Hmmm - good point Sagar. Now that I read it again, it might mean search & rescue (especially, since the report says SAR helicopter rather than SAR-equipped-helicopter)
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Badar »

Singha wrote:it would not be a closed bastion but more a open challenge bastion like presumably the waters around murmansk or pearl harbour are.
AFAIK US does not have a bastion doctrine. At least not one openly acknowledged.

Weather its Bohai, Okhotsk sea - or the conjectural Andoman bastion the area will be crawling with US, Russian, Chinese subs along with tokens RN or French elements. That's a given. Everyone will have to tolerate it in peacetime and risk it in wartime.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

thats good. in peacetime we can prowl around and collect all the signatures of hostile subs...rather than have to go looking for them.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

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arnabh
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

keshavchandra
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by keshavchandra »

Sir, link is not working. :-?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rahul.ka »

keshavchandra wrote:
Sir, link is not working. :-?
http://flonnet.com/fl2904/stories/20120309290411800.htm
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JaiS »

As per Robert Wall's post :
Robert Wall is "Aviation Week's International Editor London · http://www.aviationweek.com"
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by JaiS »

Pics: Second EMB-145I for India completes first flight
http://bit.ly/Hb47yD

Second Indigenous Airborne Radar Flight Tested
http://bit.ly/HfG7xK

Maiden flight of (second) home-built Eye-in-the-Sky
http://bit.ly/HfGbgQ
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=17681
"The necessary mission systems and components, including the dummy AAAU (Active Antena Array Unit) are successfully fitted on board Embraer EMB 145I aircraft,"
^^^^

VVVV
The other mission systems will then be integrated on to the aircraft, and mission system flight trials are likely to commence from November.
It is important to note it is "dummy".
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

Tarmak007: AEW&C arriving in July
India’s eye-in-the-sky AEW&C platform (EMB-145I) is scheduled for an official touchdown this July. Sources say that the platform would first arrive at Jamnagar Air Base enroute to its destination in Bangalore for system integration. The plane had its first official flight on December 7 (2011), in Brazil.
A neat little footnote in AK's latest post on IFF units.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

Times of India: India to launch AWACS project to counter China, Pak
Rajat Pandit, Jun 19, 2012
NEW DELHI: With Pakistan stealing a swift march in the "eyes in the sky" arena and China already way ahead, India is now going to launch its own full-blown futuristic AWACS (airborne warning and control system) programme.

"Clearances are underway" to initially develop two AWACS aircraft, with four more to follow at a later stage, under the new `AWACS-India' project to be executed by DRDO and its Bangalore-based Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS).

"Under it, 360-degree AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars will be mounted on large aircraft like IL-76, Boeing or Airbus," said a DRDO source.

Potent force-multipliers like AWACS or AEW&C (airborne early warning and control) systems have changed the entire nature of air warfare because they can detect incoming aerial threats, ranging from fighters to cruise missiles, much before ground-based radars.

They also serve to direct air defence fighters during combat operations with enemy jets and also help in tracking troop build-ups.

Pakistan already has four Swedish Saab-2000 AEW&C aircraft, with four more Chinese ZDK-03 AWACS in the pipeline. China has around 20 AWACS, a mix of new and old systems, say sources.

But IAF has only three Phalcon AWACS mounted on IL-76 aircraft, under the $1.1 billion tripartite agreement among India, Israel and Russia finalized in 2004, despite being confronted with two potentially hostile fronts.

The case for two additional "follow-on" Phalcon AWACS, with a range of over 400-km and 360-degree coverage like the first three, has run into some rough weather due to sharp cost escalation.

Moreover, DRDO's ongoing mini-AWACS project, under which indigenous AEW&C systems are to be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets obtained from Brazil for $210-million, has also slipped after being approved in October, 2004, at a cost of Rs 1,800 crore.

DRDO, however, contends the project is now on track. "CABS will get the first Embraer, modified with antenna units and other structures mounted on its fuselage, in July," said an official.

"All electronic systems, with a normal radar range of 250-km and a 240-degree coverage, will then be integrated. The first flight should take place in early-2013. The project completion date is April 2014," said an official.

IAF is awaiting the completion of the mini-AWACS project as well as the launch of the larger 'AWACS-India' programme with crossed fingers. AWACS also constitute a crucial constituent of its IACCS (integrated air command and control system) programme, the fully-automated network being set up to integrate the wide array of military radars with each other as well as with civilian radars to plug surveillance gaps in Indian airspace.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Remarkable how all indigenous projects - Arjun, IJT, LCA, AEWC, etc seem to have gone into hibernation.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

well the coming cash crunch will take care of that khujli.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by gkriish »

PratikDas wrote:Times of India: India to launch AWACS project to counter China, Pak
Rajat Pandit, Jun 19, 2012
NEW DELHI: With Pakistan stealing a swift march in the "eyes in the sky" arena and China already way ahead, India is now going to launch its own full-blown futuristic AWACS (airborne warning and control system) programme.

"Clearances are underway" to initially develop two AWACS aircraft, with four more to follow at a later stage, under the new `AWACS-India' project to be executed by DRDO and its Bangalore-based Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS).

"Under it, 360-degree AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars will be mounted on large aircraft like IL-76, Boeing or Airbus," said a DRDO source.

Potent force-multipliers like AWACS or AEW&C (airborne early warning and control) systems have changed the entire nature of air warfare because they can detect incoming aerial threats, ranging from fighters to cruise missiles, much before ground-based radars.

They also serve to direct air defence fighters during combat operations with enemy jets and also help in tracking troop build-ups.

Pakistan already has four Swedish Saab-2000 AEW&C aircraft, with four more Chinese ZDK-03 AWACS in the pipeline. China has around 20 AWACS, a mix of new and old systems, say sources.

But IAF has only three Phalcon AWACS mounted on IL-76 aircraft, under the $1.1 billion tripartite agreement among India, Israel and Russia finalized in 2004, despite being confronted with two potentially hostile fronts.

The case for two additional "follow-on" Phalcon AWACS, with a range of over 400-km and 360-degree coverage like the first three, has run into some rough weather due to sharp cost escalation.

Moreover, DRDO's ongoing mini-AWACS project, under which indigenous AEW&C systems are to be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets obtained from Brazil for $210-million, has also slipped after being approved in October, 2004, at a cost of Rs 1,800 crore.

DRDO, however, contends the project is now on track. "CABS will get the first Embraer, modified with antenna units and other structures mounted on its fuselage, in July," said an official.

"All electronic systems, with a normal radar range of 250-km and a 240-degree coverage, will then be integrated. The first flight should take place in early-2013. The project completion date is April 2014," said an official.

IAF is awaiting the completion of the mini-AWACS project as well as the launch of the larger 'AWACS-India' programme with crossed fingers. AWACS also constitute a crucial constituent of its IACCS (integrated air command and control system) programme, the fully-automated network being set up to integrate the wide array of military radars with each other as well as with civilian radars to plug surveillance gaps in Indian airspace.
i would say go for Israeli Falcon which is the next best to the american just 3 for a country size of india what was the MOD and defence procurement were thinking
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

I am extremely skeptical of the 1.5 yr timeline given for first flight with radar to project completion...the stuff is not flying yet in another testbed.

in the commercial sector, much smaller products which would not be more than 10% of whats involved here have 18 month test cycles.

they should learn to give some honest timelines....my estimate to get the 1st one FOCed from first flight, through multiple sw and hw revisions would be in 3-4 yr range BEST CASE...5-6 yrs AVG CASE. we have zero prior experience in airborne command posts of any hue to fall back on. phalcon and p8I feature imported kit.

case in point - the US tried to merge the JSTARS, AWACS and space based sensors into a 'paul revere' == M2CA a/c and gave up after a while due to very low MTBF of complex mission sensors. this inspite of having so many building blocks , decades of prior exp, the best talent pool for the job and vast funding.

look how a deceptively simple project like the IJT is dragging on and on...
Last edited by Singha on 19 Jun 2012 08:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sum »

The case for two additional "follow-on" Phalcon AWACS, with a range of over 400-km and 360-degree coverage like the first three, has run into some rough weather due to sharp cost escalation.
Dammit...There end all wet dreams of loads of Phalcons roaming the Indian skies 24X7..
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

How come there is escalation. Wouldn't the follow on options be at the same price ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

I guess Indians are getting famous for being screwed by all and sundry -aka Gorky!!
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

the only party who havent shafted us yet is brazil - but give it some time.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Singha wrote:I am extremely skeptical of the 1.5 yr timeline given for first flight with radar to project completion...the stuff is not flying yet in another testbed.
They do have a test bed, not too sure what all it test though:

DRDO CABS releases Identification Friend or Foe products

(Not one of my fav site to refer to, but ..............)
Singha wrote:the only party who havent shafted us yet is brazil - but give it some time.
FMS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

Singha wrote:the only party who havent shafted us yet is brazil - but give it some time.
With our politicians, misnisters and govt babus, who needs phorenars to take us for a ride ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

in any case brazil doesnt need to hurt us - the 18 month schedule to test and qualify the AEW&C mission suite is unrealistic and will slip many times.

even a ITvity munna can see that, or perhaps *being* a ITvity munna one has experience with a lot of such MPP files and manager math :)
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