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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 20:28 
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Creating this thread to keep a track of all "alleged" and actual corruption related news pertaining to Indian Arms deals. This thread is also for discussions regarding the same. Please post any news stories related to Indian arms purchases which have a "corruption" angle to them here, rather than discussing them in the more "technical discussion" oriented threads (like Indian Missile Tech discussion thread). As usual, please quote the source of news, and provide links if easily available. Finally, this thread is also for discussing arms lobbies and agents. A single thread should also help in establishing a pattern of "agendas".

Starting off with the latest controversy.

Antony denies corruption in missile deal with Israeli firm


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 20:34 
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X-posting from the Missile Tech thread.

Gerard wrote:


Katare wrote:


Interesting headline......

"God less communists, most pious muslims of secular India and most anti muslim crusading Christian super power are collaborating against the deal struck by jews and hindus" :roll:



RaviBg wrote:


andy B wrote:
Katare wrote:


Interesting headline......

"God less communists, most pious muslims of secular India and most anti muslim crusading Christian super power are collaborating against the deal struck by jews and hindus" :roll:


Katare saar not only are the Christians but the Orthodox christian are in the fray too..... :roll: :evil:


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 20:38 
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Avarachan wrote:
andy B wrote:

Katare saar not only are the Christians but the Orthodox christian are in the fray too..... :roll: :evil:


Huh?



andy B wrote:
^^^ was referring to the rooskies!!!



Vick wrote:
If the deal with IAI is forced to be cancelled, rest assured that it will be at the behest of anti-Indian forces. The halting of the HDW, Bofors and Mirage 2000 deals had huge long term negative impacts on India's ability to conduct warfare and pursue national goals.



Austin wrote:
RaviBg wrote:


From the link above some interesting comments by MOD

•What is the background of the deal?

DRDO told CCS that MRSAM was the land derivative of an ongoing long-range surface-to-air missile project with Israel for the Navy. DRDO conceded that Akash, the indigenous missile system in development since 1984, had been a sub-optimal performer, following which it was decided that IAF would purchase only two squadrons, to be deployed in less-than-strategic airfields.

{so Akash is now a sub-optimal performer after being told it as capable of taking down supersonic , high manouverable target and low flying cruise missile and its unique ramjet engine advantage ? }

•India already possesses a more powerful missile in the same class: the advance air defence (AAD) missile, which is part of India’s anti-ballistic missile shield ?

DRDO: MRSAM is four times more manoeuvrable than AAD. AAD performs sub-optimally while engaging aircraft in tail-chase mode, reducing the air defence engagement envelope.

{ And the under development AAD also performs sub-optimally ? after telling us its more capable than PAC-3 and can engage BM and Aircraft equally well , how is this four times more manoeuvrable than AAD advertised, difficult to digest }

Quote:
•Missile seeker technology has not been transferred.


DRDO: Significant share of work in seeker technology has been awarded to Indian industry. For more than 80% of missiles, seeker sub-assemblies will be manufactured, assembled, tested in India with complete production drawings and assembly/test procedures.

{ Ok manufacturing seeker sub-assemblies , assembling 80 % is of it is one thing , but that still begs the question , seeker technology will not be provided }


Why is MRSAM such a darling of IN and IAF when this thing still needs to be tested and is yet on paper ?


Cybaru wrote:
MRSAM seems too light for the range. The weight specified is probably without the booster stage.


Image


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 20:42 
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Austin wrote:
There seems to be some problem with AAD data

AAD altitude of kill should be ~ 30 km
Range in anti-aircraft role should > 100 km
Lateral Acceleration for AAD is stated as 7g (?)

While for MRSAM its 80 g , that seems to be underestimation for AAD and overestimation for MRSAM.

At 274 Kg for 70 Km that data too seem to be underestimation.

And MRSAM has some advanced Active Seeker and AAD has inferior Russian RF seeker ?

MRSAM is a paper tiger , AAD is moved much beyond that , and Akash is production ready.

Some one desperately want to sell MRSAM and make money



sohamn wrote:
I don't understand why there is so much hype about MRSAM. Isn't this the Land version of Barak 8?
And 10000 crores include cost of dev and acquiring a certain number of squadrons of launchers and weapons itself.
I don't understand the problem here.
Akash takes 20 years and the range is 27 kms, cost is $500 million(only for dev), total amount including 2 squadrons is another $400 million = Total cost $900 million .
MSRAM will take 5 years, range will be 70 kms, cost including some squadrons = $2 billion.

And as per as NOVA getting the deal in india, I think it will be great since some private players in india will also get valuable experience in integrating missiles.



vina wrote:
I think the MRSAM move is sound. Akash is clearly outdated/long in the tooth (command line guidance/ no active seeker) and is too late in the game. It is really an "Indian" missile with IAI bringing it's advanced seeker technology, which we lack and probably some of their guidance expertise.

This controversy is payback for the Congress for the ugly scene they created with Barak, a wholly unjustified witch hunt, where they even dragged in the former Chief of Naval Staff, all for the sole purpose of getting at George Fernandes as "revenge" for him going hammer and tongs at Rajiv Gandhi for Bofors.

Well, Karma is a beaatch. This toxic idiocy of playing politics with important and vital defense deals has to stop. India is shooting itself in the foot with all this kind of stupidity.




kobe wrote:
folks,
unless you are an internationally recognized missile expert, please do not play guessing games, and post juvenile personal opinion about indo-israel missile deal.

please please please, post relevant info with links and leave opinions, comparisons, guesswork, and goose-chase out of this PLEASE



K_Reddy wrote:
Letter to Josy Joseph. Reg: Missile range was scaled down to benefit Israel firm.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1244938

The reporting of defense related news in India is so pathetic that at India’s number one defense blog (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com, try it sometime), the likes of you are referred to as the DDM (short for Desi Dork Media). This article of your, firmly puts you in the same category. Defense reporting, especially on issues of the nature in this article, requires a good technical understanding of the complex systems involved along with a familiarity of the working of the Indian military and its bureaucracy. You clearly have none of these.

The Akash missile system is unsuitable for your current defense scenario and should not even be mentioned here as an alternative to the MRSAM; it in no way qualifies as a contemporary weapons system despite whatever DRDO may say. It doesn’t even possess a seeker of terminal guidance (read it up on Wiki if these terms are information overload to you). This is not to say that the Akash is not a great achievement by the DRDO; we are all very proud of it and DRDO should be encouraged in every way in its future endeavors. But the Akash is long delayed and entered the game too late; the DRDO has matured since then. MRSAM falls in a whole other category and is comparable to the best in the world. The AAD’s primary design criterion is the engagement of ballistic missiles with aircraft interception only as a secondary role – not suitable for the IAF (Indian Air Force incase you don’t know). Israel has proved to be an exceptional partner to India in defense development. The alternatives SAM systems from other countries are unviable for India due to the geo-political involved in highly complex cutting edge weapons systems.

The international arms market is a very shady business and the Indian MOD, shadiest of all. I appreciate your news group’s work on the war room leak story and believe such scrutiny by a free and unbiased press is absolutely essential for any functional democracy. But you have jumped the gun to sensationalize this issue without adequate understanding or analysis. In the process you have caused an uproar in the media both here and in Israel, and turned the already charged the political atmosphere in India against the deal through baseless allegations, potentially sabotaging an extremely critical component of India’s defense preparedness.

The most glaring mistake in your article is that the IAF version of the MRSAM has a range of over 140 Km unlike the 70Km range naval version of the same system that you have confused it with. The MRSAM originated as the Barak 8. (The first Barak deal for the navy is a truly shady deal that no one has been punished for, but that’s another story.) The Barak 8 was India’s answer to air defense needs of its Navy. The IAF got involved much later after evaluating its own needs and finding the same system suitable. A common missile system for both arms of the armed forces is extremely desirable for reasons other than just cost/time saving. The MRSAM is thus the Barak 8 with a booster stage attached to give it enhanced range.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3416
http://defense-update.com/products/b/barak8.htm

Even if the IAF chooses to alter it original requirements, it would be doing so willingly as it deems the MRSAM proposal the best alternative available to it to get a system in place as quickly as possible. Have you analyzed the current air defense scenario in south Asia before you over looked the IAF’s urgency in this matter? Do you have any qualification to undertake such an analysis? Do you even understand just how limited the IAF’s current radar coverage is? (Itself a result of overdrawn procurement processes in the current MOD setup.) There are several institutions of higher educational that offer courses in strategic affairs, you may want to look up before you undertake such an endeavor.

Many feel that this system MUST be rushed thought even if serious corruption is uncovered as the need is so great and the current inadequacy so dangerous. We simply cannot afford another Danel howitzer episode that has thrown the Army’s preparedness into disarray. After a long drawn out trail process stretching over a decade (only in India), in which Danel came out the clear winner; the entire artillery arm of the Indian army was suspended in limbo after allegations over a small rifle deal with the same company surfaced. This was almost 10 years ago and the topic is still a hot potato no one wants to touch. Meanwhile our brave men in uniform are yet to get a modern howitzer and face a superior armed enemy on both frontiers today.

Do you have motives over the average idiot journalist looking to get ahead though shameless sensationalism? Did these sources of your seek you out or did you approach them during the course of your ‘investigation’? This could be an attempt to sabotage India’s defense preparedness by external elements or simple by competitors of IAI. This is not at all unlikely or outlandish; you are yet to understand just how shady the arms bazaar is. Your self-serving reporting may have already done immense harm to India’s defense at an extremely testing time in south Asia. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Kishore Reddy



sarang wrote:
Very well man. Very nice article (letter to DDMites). :twisted:


Singha wrote:
even if the Akash missile itself is replaced by newer things, why not design MRSAM from the outset to use the same set of vehicles, radars and control networks developed at great effort ?

only thing is the MRSAM will probably be hot launched from VL tubes like the
S300/Patriot.



p_saggu wrote:
Kishore Reddy-ji,
Very very well written. Hope this bangs some sense into DDM editors and journalists.



ramana wrote:
Very good Kishore. A few changes. It should be Denel not Danel. And Trials not Trail. And emphaise that the cancellation prompted by Renuka Chowdhary's allegation has effected IA readiness after the Mumbai terrorist attack.

Can you make it a little bit generic and send it to all the newpapers that had covered the issue?



Prem Kumar wrote:
K_Reddy wrote:
Letter to Josy Joseph. Reg: Missile range was scaled down to benefit Israel firm.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1244938

The reporting of defense related news in India is so pathetic that at India’s number one defense blog (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com, try it sometime), the likes of you are referred to as the DDM (short for Desi Dork Media). This article of your, firmly puts you in the same category. Defense reporting, especially on issues of the nature in this article, requires a good technical understanding of the complex systems involved along with a familiarity of the working of the Indian military and its bureaucracy. You clearly have none of these.

The Akash missile system is unsuitable for your current defense scenario and should not even be mentioned here as an alternative to the MRSAM; it in no way qualifies as a contemporary weapons system despite whatever DRDO may say. It doesn’t even possess a seeker of terminal guidance (read it up on Wiki if these terms are information overload to you). This is not to say that the Akash is not a great achievement by the DRDO; we are all very proud of it and DRDO should be encouraged in every way in its future endeavors. But the Akash is long delayed and entered the game too late; the DRDO has matured since then. MRSAM falls in a whole other category and is comparable to the best in the world. The AAD’s primary design criterion is the engagement of ballistic missiles with aircraft interception only as a secondary role – not suitable for the IAF (Indian Air Force incase you don’t know). Israel has proved to be an exceptional partner to India in defense development. The alternatives SAM systems from other countries are unviable for India due to the geo-political involved in highly complex cutting edge weapons systems.

The international arms market is a very shady business and the Indian MOD, shadiest of all. I appreciate your news group’s work on the war room leak story and believe such scrutiny by a free and unbiased press is absolutely essential for any functional democracy. But you have jumped the gun to sensationalize this issue without adequate understanding or analysis. In the process you have caused an uproar in the media both here and in Israel, and turned the already charged the political atmosphere in India against the deal through baseless allegations, potentially sabotaging an extremely critical component of India’s defense preparedness.

The most glaring mistake in your article is that the IAF version of the MRSAM has a range of over 140 Km unlike the 70Km range naval version of the same system that you have confused it with. The MRSAM originated as the Barak 8. (The first Barak deal for the navy is a truly shady deal that no one has been punished for, but that’s another story.) The Barak 8 was India’s answer to air defense needs of its Navy. The IAF got involved much later after evaluating its own needs and finding the same system suitable. A common missile system for both arms of the armed forces is extremely desirable for reasons other than just cost/time saving. The MRSAM is thus the Barak 8 with a booster stage attached to give it enhanced range.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3416
http://defense-update.com/products/b/barak8.htm

Even if the IAF chooses to alter it original requirements, it would be doing so willingly as it deems the MRSAM proposal the best alternative available to it to get a system in place as quickly as possible. Have you analyzed the current air defense scenario in south Asia before you over looked the IAF’s urgency in this matter? Do you have any qualification to undertake such an analysis? Do you even understand just how limited the IAF’s current radar coverage is? (Itself a result of overdrawn procurement processes in the current MOD setup.) There are several institutions of higher educational that offer courses in strategic affairs, you may want to look up before you undertake such an endeavor.

Many feel that this system MUST be rushed thought even if serious corruption is uncovered as the need is so great and the current inadequacy so dangerous. We simply cannot afford another Danel howitzer episode that has thrown the Army’s preparedness into disarray. After a long drawn out trail process stretching over a decade (only in India), in which Danel came out the clear winner; the entire artillery arm of the Indian army was suspended in limbo after allegations over a small rifle deal with the same company surfaced. This was almost 10 years ago and the topic is still a hot potato no one wants to touch. Meanwhile our brave men in uniform are yet to get a modern howitzer and face a superior armed enemy on both frontiers today.

Do you have motives over the average idiot journalist looking to get ahead though shameless sensationalism? Did these sources of your seek you out or did you approach them during the course of your ‘investigation’? This could be an attempt to sabotage India’s defense preparedness by external elements or simple by competitors of IAI. This is not at all unlikely or outlandish; you are yet to understand just how shady the arms bazaar is. Your self-serving reporting may have already done immense harm to India’s defense at an extremely testing time in south Asia. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Kishore Reddy



Hi Kishore,

Very good reply. You may want to make some spelling/grammar changes though, especially if you are sending it out to several newspapers. This may sound like nit-picking but unfortunately, many people tend to judge a book by its cover.

Some changes suggested below in bold:

"This article of yours"

"in case you didnt know"

"The alternative SAM systems"

"are not viable for India due to the geopolitics"

"the already charged (remove the additional "the" here) political"

"mistake in your article is in not realizing that the IAF version of the MRSAM has a range of over 140 Km"

"the MRSAM proposal to be the best alternative"

"overlooked"

"MUST be rushed through"

"a hot potato that no one"

"Did these sources of yours seek"

"or simply by competitors"



K_Reddy wrote:
Do any of you have this dolt's email ID. I posted it in the comment section but I does not appear on the page. Thanks Prem for the proof reading, I am dyslexic and useless with spellings. I agree this should be sent to every defense correspondent in India, if nothing else then to piss him/her? off. Please feel free to forward this letter to anyone that comes to mind. The defense reporting in this country is atrocious. The MOD needs to shortlist one qualified reporter from every major news outlet and do a workshop to impart basic knowledge on defense matters to the DDM. Thanks.



A Sharma wrote:
Israeli arms deal clean: Antony

Thiruvananthapuram, April 3: A $1.4 billion missile deal India has signed with Israel is "clean" and contains a clause providing for its cancellation if it is proved kickbacks were involved, Defence Minister A.K. Anthony said Friday.

The deal, signed in February but made public only in March, is the biggest between the two countries. The Left parties have now alleged corruption in the deal for the supply of an anti-missile air defence system.

"This is an old issue. It was in 2002 that the decision was taken to replace our old missiles. From 2007, for two years this deal was discussed by various departments of the defence ministry and it even has a pre-integrity agreement," Antony told reporters here.

He pointed out that the pre-integrity agreement clearly states that the deal can be cancelled at any point of time if the government feels that kickbacks were involved.

"It can be revoked at any time. If the future government feels any such thing has happened in the deal, they can cancel it and take legal steps (against Israel Aerospace Industries that is executing the deal)," Antony said.

Asked to comment on former Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi working for a foreign company in New Delhi, he said: "I am not aware of it. Many retired defence officials do work after retirement."


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 20:47 
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Ravishankar wrote:
India: Bribes Could Terminate Deal with Israel

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR



sivabala wrote:
Though I read all the rebuttals opposing the DNA news, questioning the IAI missile deal, I have an opinion that some thing is wrong. One of the sore point against the news piece is the reporter compared the M/LRSAM in the same breath with AAD. This may not be accurate as far as the objective of the systems considered.I think the people who have fed the facts to the reporter had intentionally fed some crap like both M/LRSAM are in the same league as AAD. One other thing that still fuels the thought of foul play is the reduction in the number of Akash squadrons order.

The whole issue may not be about M/LRSAM Vs AAD, but about Akash Vs Spyder. In that case, Akash is better than the range of Spyder, but has the same objective. Then why should IAF go for Spyder, when Akash is available. Perhaps, the black sheeps behind the screen wanted to kill the M/LRSAM collaboration. So they used the real foul play that happened in Spyder system acquisition (which 's not yet been completed).



vavinash wrote:
Cut the crap about IA/IAF wanting foreign maal. Akash can at best replace the kvderat. It simply is not in the league of MR-SAM (70 km). I am sure IAF and army will order some more Akash batteries but they need not come at the cost of MR-SAMs or LR-SAm's.

Anyway who wants to buy the akash?



Samay wrote:
^an Israeli answer to all speculations in media
Quote:
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel carried out a test launch of its Arrow II interceptor missile on Tuesday, the Defense Ministry said, a system designed to defend against possible ballistic missile attacks by Iran and Syria.

"There was a successful test today of an improved Arrow (missile) that hit and intercepted a target more complicated than normal," Defense Minister Ehud Barak told reporters after watching the launch from a helicopter.

The Arrow intercepted a target missile, simulating an Iranian Shehab, launched from an Israeli aircraft over the Mediterranean, a defense source said.

Israel Radio said it was the 16th test launch of an Arrow. The defense source said 90 percent of those tests have been successful.

The defense source said the aim of this test was to prepare for future threats as enemy missiles improve their capabilities.

"The arrow's interception altitude has been enhanced. Of course, the higher you go, the further out you can reach as well. Our doctrine is to intercept enemy missiles as far away from Israeli skies as possible. That gives you time for another try if you miss," the source, who could not be named, said.

The project is jointly funded by Israel and the United States to serve as a strategic shield against ballistic missiles in the arsenals of Iran and Syria.

At least two Arrow batteries have been deployed in Israel, which has been testing the system to improve its performance at high altitudes and against multiple incoming missiles.

Israel fears that Iran's uranium enrichment program is aimed at producing nuclear weapons, an allegation Tehran denies.

there was news about similarities in arrow2 and barak8 systems??



babbupandey wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10754

Doesn't it look like balderdash? Comparing SAM with AAD...



Nihat wrote:
DNA is just creating mindless paranoia for the sake of news , if only they had done their research properly they would have found that MR- SAM will replace some of the current missile defence systems which are outdated , AAD will not be in the same category as it will defend against BM's.

Why is it so hard for them to work out.



babbupandey wrote:
DDM
BR should stop posting DNA articles on news updates :x



SaiK wrote:
concern is the question of it being only the range issue. if it is, then we could have done a similar joint indo-israeli collaboration to make akash to be having 80km range as well.

when the requirements are drafted,.. are these defence honchos really see a quota system and apply like smooth operators?, and right from planning stage, akash will never get that market!?

a whole lot of truth will never be said though.. however, if we have a system to improve on, and anybody thinks we can get there, we should choose that path rather.

i'd vote for that.



kit wrote:
Well,Arun its a democracy with a free press .. Any one with a story (agenda) can have a field day with the 'right' connections ! dont you recall the ISRO 'scandal' sometime back


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 21:45 
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Link doesn't work any longer.

Who did this man die fighting?

Vishal Thapar
New Delhi, August 9 2004

An upright naval commander refuses to approve a faulty weapons system in Russia. He and his commissioning team are flown back to India. Six months later he is killed in a mysterious hit-and-run case. A year after his death, the commander gets a gallantry award. People, especially those in the navy, are drawing the obvious conclusion: that an arms mafia had him killed.

This is the story of Commander Nawaz Ahmed. As the commissioning officer of the Russian-built Krivak-III class frigate, christened INS Talwar, he realised during acceptance trials in 2002 that a key on-board weapon system — the Shtil-1 surface-to-air missile — was malfunctioning.

The Talwar was to be the first of the three stealth frigates inducted into the navy at an aggregate cost of $1 billion. But Ahmed resisted allurement and intimidation in insisting that the Shtil snag first be rectified.

With penalty clauses for delays specified in the contract, the stakes for the sellers were high. They pressed for acceptance of the ship and promised to rectify the problem post-delivery. But on Ahmed's advice, the navy refused to take delivery of the warship till the ability of Shtil-I to hit airborne targets was demonstrated. The 180-strong commissioning crew was flown back. This set the delivery schedule back by over a year.

Six months after returning to New Delhi, the commander was killed near Chanakyapuri. He was on his regular morning jog when a speeding water tanker hit him near the Italian Embassy at Satya Marg on June 19, 2003.

The driver absconded. He continues to elude the police. Eight raiding parties they sent to his native Bihar have returned empty-handed.

But the general belief in the navy is that Ahmed was killed by an arms mafia. Recently, Ahmed was posthumously awarded the Vishisht Seva Medal for taking a tough call in the national interest. So deep is naval sentiment that the gesture did not end here. In an exceptional move, Ahmed's widow, Ansari Begum, was recruited as an officer into the navy's logistics cadre. The age limit was relaxed to enable her commissioning.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 22:32 
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JaiS wrote:
Link doesn't work any longer.

Who did this man die fighting?

Vishal Thapar
New Delhi, August 9 2004

An upright naval commander refuses to approve a faulty weapons system in Russia. He and his commissioning team are flown back to India. Six months later he is killed in a mysterious hit-and-run case. A year after his death, the commander gets a gallantry award. People, especially those in the navy, are drawing the obvious conclusion: that an arms mafia had him killed.

This is the story of Commander Nawaz Ahmed. As the commissioning officer of the Russian-built Krivak-III class frigate, christened INS Talwar, he realised during acceptance trials in 2002 that a key on-board weapon system — the Shtil-1 surface-to-air missile — was malfunctioning.


:shock: :shock:
I am scandalized by this atrocious piece of news. Now I have a strong reservations against any Russian systems. Is this the reason that India cannot afford to go to war with Pakistan? Because our commanders know that we have bought old rusting show pieces that cannot bear the weight of Paki assault.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 22:41 
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let's not seek more into the news than they actually mean. there is no end to such endless speculation.
the krivak deal was an example where the supplier wanted to thrust the system on the surface before it was tested to satisfaction. but did they succeed ? the upright Commander paid with his life and the navy accepted the ships only after the systems were proven.

the decision of not going to war in case of India is a political one and hence out of the scope of this thread.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 22:55 
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Rahul M wrote:
let's not seek more into the news than they actually mean. there is no end to such endless speculation.
the krivak deal was an example where the supplier wanted to thrust the system on the surface before it was tested to satisfaction. but did they succeed ? the upright Commander paid with his life and the navy accepted the ships only after the systems were proven.

the decision of not going to war in case of India is a political one and hence out of the scope of this thread.


OT But I am sure that the political leadership also takes the advice of the Generals before making such decisions. It is not one hand that makes a clap.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009 23:04 
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Location: General Error : Bhery Phamous General !
^^
and as of now barring a handful lifafa jobs we do know that the forces were willing but the politicos didn't give the go ahead.


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2009 22:09 
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The man who bribed Indians for Israeli arms sales=


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2009 00:16 
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Quote:
the commander gets a gallantry award


DDM at it - The Vishist Seva Medal is not a gallantry award. its a service award . The headline of the article tries to imply its a gallantry award as well as the text . Vishal thapar EPIC FAIL


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2009 02:45 
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Rahul M wrote:
^^
and as of now barring a handful lifafa jobs we do know that the forces were willing but the politicos didn't give the go ahead.


Saar,could our currently depleted inventory(IAF effectively at 28 active sqdns.) have supported such an act? also,last time we tried ASC(aka "aao sab churayen") did a splendid job by substituting petrol for water and transported the same to the fronts.

Moreover,we couldn't deploy fast enough and effectively so.

Unfortunately in India, war has been and is usually upon us and we always lack the requisite quality and/or quantity of inventory - guns,BPJs,arty,armor,SF,ground strike aircraft,helos.

And yet-what do our jernails solely ask the MoD for the soldier - higher salaries! Ne'er mind freeezing in Siachen without winter clothing - shout @ DRDO for poor quality but do nothing to improve it - just keep on importing from the same british co. that by 'happenstance' supplied your enemies.Ne'er mind many rifles in Kargil jammed due to cold or night ops weren't quite feasible without thermal imagers/NVGs.
Ne'er mind making money over their coffins :evil: :evil: :evil: .Or asking bribes when giving petrol pumps to our martyrs(watch Dhoop).
Ne'er mind not buying equipment tailor-made to fit the doctrine and implementing the doctrine based on Brochuritis and PPTitis of foreign arms dealers even when better equipment has been researched at home (later on the same tech re-engineered by dealer is incorporated and sold back to us).

IMVVHO,The Hon'ble RM shld cut down the booze that numbs the jernails pain towards their comrades and watch them die after every procurement deal.
What happened to the Chetwood code:-whose allegiance they swore to abide by throughout life let alone service life.

Perhaps heeding ex-President's Kalam's suggestion of lessening(imo ban them) foreign arms deals and ensuring 50% indigenous quota would also do good.

IMHO,all foreign arms sales should be banned in a multi-vendor market like ours and substituted with joint venture LLPs.

Perhaps,kickbacks and arms deal corruption will lessen then.

Rising salaries alone isn't a solution.Did the Fifth Pay Comm lessen corruption in civilian sphere? If not,how can one expect things to be different in a military which is yet to implement its recommendations?


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 10:14 
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Arun_S, I know that you support the Indo-Israeli JV involving the MRSAM. But what do you think about the Akash vs. the Spyder?

I saw that Sivabala posted on this (above), and I'm curious what you think about the issue.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 13:47 
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skher, the situation is far from ideal but the forces would even then have managed.
at least wrt pak. and yes, the AF too.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 14:08 
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If you look at the allegations of corruption in arms deals, it all seems to follow a set pattern.

Spit and scoot without the burden of proof.

Thereafter, many "interested parties" notably the commies and others doubtless supported by the losing bidders begin a cacophony of motivated allegations.

These "motivated" parties raise questions in parliament, followed by scathing articles in the DDM and endless TV debates by "security analysts" with breathless anchors and hosts eagerly pitching in resulting in the concerned firms invariably being blacklisted and further contact cutoff.

Is this not the easiest and most economical way for our dear neighbors to stymie India's arms procurement process and tie it up in gordian knots ?
Thereby achieving their national ambitions by keeping us militarily weak.

Recent small example from Ramana, quoted from a BR thread. You know all the rest of the much bigger generated controversies.

Mumbai Police modernisation generates controversy


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 17:20 
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WE SHOULD LEGALIZE THE BUSINESS CHARGES/SO CALLED CORRUPTIONS
In arms dealing nothing goes without kick-back. We should not cry a lot becoz It will harm us more then benefit.We can understand the fact that bofors, HDW & other so called shady deal and ban on those compay harm us.I think we should legalize it in a limit as a business charge.Now, failed parties cry a lot to prevent the successfull party and in every deal there is a corruptions/charges. If we legalize it in some inovative way. The delay in defence parepartion can be prevented.
These delay is highly dangerous then business charge/corruptions.The inovative ways can be devise by the GOVT.
It is like TAKT-KAL seva in railways or in MTNL which eradicate the corruptions and now corruptions is legalize in form of TAkT-KAL charges which goes to govt. or like that in other inovative way


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 17:26 
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IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009 17:38 
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Sir,What is the harm.We r getting the best.It is technology no one sell it for money if someone is selling it is great.Why U.K. the friend of USA is not the part of F22,becoz it technology.They only sell it when we r near to get it. If, these Israeli/Russian r given some thing then say thanks to them and these three marketing men.
If govt is buying it then trust in them .They always have better in-sight then us
shyamd wrote:
IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2009 11:04 
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Rahul M wrote:
skher, the situation is far from ideal but the forces would even then have managed.
at least wrt pak. and yes, the AF too.


Hopefully,someday there will be light and end to this red tape.
Reassuring to hear that AF can still beat up pak at 1/3rd its requisite strength......
....meaning to say we can destroy paf three times over @ full strength? :mrgreen:

As of now,more trouble for Air HQ.

Plan to modernise IAF airfields runs into rough weather

Quote:

New Delhi: A project worth Rs 1,200 crore for a much needed modernisation of airbases across the country has entered troubled waters with competitors approaching the Defence Ministry's Vigilance Department against “unfair practices” in the selection process.

The project, which includes an air traffic management system, navigational aids and an airfield lightning system for 30 frontline airbases of the Indian Air Force (IAF), was sanctioned last year with six bidders vying for the mega deal.

However, the selection process is set to get delayed with competitors pointing to 'discrepancies' in the technical evaluation process that led to the short listing of all six bidders. The Vigilance Department of the Defence Ministry was approached and it is learnt that inquiries have been sent to the Air Force asking it to clarify its stand.

Competitors have alleged that the requirements of the Air Force in the original tender were diluted to accommodate all companies. It has also been alleged that several top companies, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin and Larsen and Toubro (L&T) did not take part in the competition even after being invited by the IAF due to loopholes in the tender document.


While all six bidders, which included consortiums of Indian companies with foreign firms, were short listed for the project, the complaint says rules have been diluted that helped at least two companies qualify for the final round of commercial negotiations.

In one instance, one of the companies in the consortium bidding for the contract has been blacklisted by a South Asian country for providing faulty runway lightning equipment. In the other case, it has been alleged that the Indian company that is the lead integrator of the project has a turnover of less than 1/10th of the contract value, ignoring financial guidelines.

The modernisation project includes the setting up of an Instrument Landing System, Tactical Air Navigation System, Communication Equipment and a CAT 2 airfield lightning system.



And Rafale also will not walk away quietly. :|


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2009 12:27 
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a highly technical question regarding israelis and drdo.

if israel can hire the trio of indian arms merchants that can pull off billions of dollars worth of deals with indian military, and if israel can hire an ex-IAF officer about whom even the DRDO chief "complains" in news conferences (according to josy joseph), why can't DRDO itself hire the same three arms merchants and the same ex-IAF "officer" and sell DRDO hardware to the same customer? :shock:


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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2009 20:19 
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kobe wrote:
why can't DRDO itself hire the same three arms merchants and the same ex-IAF "officer" and sell DRDO hardware to the same customer? :shock:


This is due to the fact that the three arm merchants will ask the DRDO SDREs one simple question: "And what will I get in return for my services?"

Once we have an answer to that question the poor man will be rendered jobless....unless DRDO thinks chankian, indulges in tigdrumbaazi with its RUR subcontractors/partners & uses his services to secure huge order from MoD and deny foreign entities entry.

This way we will indigenize one more system,far more familiar to us since East India Company's time :mrgreen: .

X-posting from MRCA:

Samay wrote:
It is rather natural that we will make all types of speculations as to why favorite rafales are out,whether it is justifiable?or how to justify the actions of some babus, but one thing is for sure that corruption is prevalent in this deal and the babudom has confirmed that , 'no money , no deal' analogy, and rafale was the first to shoot down, amongst most probable,giving them huge bargaining power for commissions and they have delivered their message to others, .
but most itching is ,this is done even before user trials ,
this report that rafales are rejected even before trials could be an artwork of sensational news reporting by media or
we could possibly see a lot of RTI's upon RTI's filed in coming days,as people will surely want to know what the hell is called transparency in defense deals,and political parties will use it..
just my 2 cents.

Somebody please File an RTI...


Excellent idea.
-Subject all foreign arms deals with less than 50 per cent offsets to RTI clauses and inspection under new Defence Procurement Policy 2009.
-Establish TDSAT-like special fast-track Supreme Court tribunal for this purpose only.

This way we encourage joint ventures, ToT, prevent haranguing by rejected bidders, give an active incentive for foreign arm manufacturers to sign our offset & tech-transfer clause and finally get rid of corruption scandals in arms deals.


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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2009 07:36 
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Edited and cross-posted in the Multimedia thread


Last edited by JaiS on 23 Apr 2009 09:02, edited 1 time in total.
Good video, but not relevant for this thread, read the first post of this thread.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2009 05:33 
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shyamd wrote:
IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.

He helped Rafael to sell its Barak missile to the Indian Navy and also worked on behalf of the IAI which will deliver its Phalcon early warning system to New Delhi next month. He may have been involved in the sale of RISAT 2.

Current laws allows Indian nationals to act as liaison for foreign firms and to cover their expenses.

He re-invested part of his earnings in several Israeli defence companies, including the drone manufacturer Aeronautics Defense System (ADS) and the artillery supplier Soltam.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009 08:23 
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OFB scandal: MoD blacklists 7 defence firms

Quote:

The Ministry of Defence on Friday released a list of seven firms it has blacklisted for alleged graft charges in the Ordnance Factory Board scam. The firms include Israeli Military Industries (IMI) and Singapore Technologies who are key defence suppliers to India. Last month, the CBI arrested Sudipta Ghosh, former managing director of the Kolkata-based Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) on graft charges.

The MD who retired on April 30 had allegedly received kickbacks from suppliers through a network of Delhi-based agents and unaccounted cash worth Rs 3 crore was recovered from him. Five other firms include Bumar of Poland which manufactures armoured recovery vehicles, HYT Engineering of Pune, RK Machine Tools, TS Kishan and company and another Singapore-based firm Media Architects Pvt Ltd.

------------- rest snipped ---------------



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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009 15:39 
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shyamd wrote:
IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.


Who is it that hold power to alter the course of such large deals i.e. after they are cleared by defence babus and only pending Cabinet Committee on Security? Defence babus will surely make a crore or two here and there. But usually killings are made by ministers and party in power. No one seem to mention the big fish, I always only see middle man's name. Btw has CBI found missing billions of dollars in Satyam scam? It isn't about fighting corruption, it is just another CIRCUS by media, babus, police, politicians, and judiciary.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 00:45 
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Fallout of the blacklisting after OFB chief's arrest.

From Telegraph, 9 June 2009

LINK

Quote:
Defence rethink on Israel freeze
SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, June 8: The defence ministry is having second thoughts on its decision to freeze business with a major Israeli military firm because it is likely to boomerang on the armed forces.

The Israeli Military Industries (IMI) is a key supplier of critical equipment to Indian security forces and the ban on the firm, announced last Friday, will force the security establishment to look for alternatives that are not easy to find.

“The decision is to put transactions ‘on hold’. This is a temporary measure. We are assessing what is to be done,” a defence ministry source said today.

The South African firm, Denel, blacklisted in 2004, continues to be tainted. But Denel did not have as many running contracts with India as the Israeli firm does.

IMI and six other firms were blacklisted because the ministry was convinced the CBI found evidence they had bribed the former director-general and chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board, Sudipta Ghosh, who was arrested in Calcutta last month. Defence minister A.K. Antony decided to blacklist the firms even before the CBI furnished a chargesheet against Ghosh.

But the blacklisting of IMI and another firm — Singapore Technologies — will have a heavy immediate impact. IMI is not only a supplier of small arms to the Indian Army but also to Indian special forces.

Since the Mumbai attack last November, further orders have been placed with IMI. The firm makes the Uzi and Tavor 21 submachine guns. Variants of the guns have been supplied to Indian forces and are in use.

IMI is also a supplier of 125mm tank shells, for which it provides knowhow to ordnance factories. It recently inked a deal with the ordnance factory to revive a Nalanda plant in a Rs 2,000-crore project to manufacture propellant charges for Bofors ammunition, and another deal estimated at Rs 700 crore to manufacture Zitara carbines in an ordnance factory.

IMI has a running project to make cargo ammunition — a variant of “cluster bombs” that rights activists rail against — in a joint venture with the Ordnance Factory at Khamaria in Madhya Pradesh.

IMI was also advising the Defence Research and Development Organisation on the development of the indigenous Arjun tank for the Indian Army.

The Ordnance Factory Board was also working on a proposal from IMI to jointly develop a bomb, PB500, capable of penetrating two-metre-thick concrete.

The blacklisting of Singapore Technologies practically cancels a part of the Indian Army’s artillery modernisation programme. The firm was left the only bidder with its Pegasus gun for an order of ultra-light howitzers.

The other contender, Bae Land Systems, which displayed its gun at an exhibition in Delhi, opted out of the race. With Singapore Technologies banned, the government will now have to cancel the tender unless the ban order is revoked.




So the idiot corrupt chief has managed to stymie so many important projects with his avarice.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 01:08 
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ramana wrote:
Fallout of the blacklisting after OFB chief's arrest.

From Telegraph, 9 June 2009
LINK
Quote:
IMI and six other firms were blacklisted because the ministry was convinced the CBI found evidence they had bribed the former director-general and chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board, Sudipta Ghosh, who was arrested in Calcutta last month. Defence minister A.K. Antony decided to blacklist the firms even before the CBI furnished a chargesheet against Ghosh

So the idiot corrupt chief has managed to stymie so many important projects with his avarice.

Ramanasaar it is the Def. Min who blacklisted these firms and not the alleged corrupt DG/Chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board, Sudipta Ghosh. Mr. Ghosh may be a guilty of helping these firms get the contracts but once signed, these contract did help our armed forces acquire the equipment they sorely lack. Why did our hon. Def. Min not think before acting in haste? It is these hasty choices that come to bite us in our rear especially when faced with a Mumbai like situation. I am not sure why your anger was directed at the idiot corrupt chief when it should have been directed at our hon. Def. Ministers hasty actions.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 01:27 
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No-No. I understand Sri Anthony blacklisted the firms. That was because the idiot chief took the bribes. If he hadn't RM would not have to do this "Caeser's wife must be above suspicion" act. So by taking this silly bribe (what will he do with all that money?) he has jeopardised the national security by forcing blacklisting. Once found out the INC with old Bofors stigma had to do this. They have no choice. Or else the very same press that lauds AKA's honesty will go after him hammer and tongs and tarnish him.

The process has to be a way to punish the worngdoers and not the forces.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 01:39 
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The person paying the bribe is as guilty as the one receiving it.

However, for the first time there is even mention of a "re-think".

The way forward is for the forces to accept indigenous equipment even if it is slightly inferior to imports so long as it meets core requirements (the Metamorphosis 155mm upgrade for the M-46 for example). At least that way some degree of modernization continues.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2009 01:57 
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ramana wrote:
No-No. I understand Sri Anthony blacklisted the firms. That was because the idiot chief took the bribes. If he hadn't RM would not have to do this "Caeser's wife must be above suspicion" act. So by taking this silly bribe (what will he do with all that money?) he has jeopardised the national security by forcing blacklisting. Once found out the INC with old Bofors stigma had to do this. They have no choice. Or else the very same press that lauds AKA's honesty will go after him hammer and tongs and tarnish him.

The process has to be a way to punish the worngdoers and not the forces.

It is interesting that whenever the defence procurements are involved we stick to the notion of "Caeser's wife must be above suspicion". When our NSA was busy securing votes for the Nuke Deal, this policy did not mean much. Same is the case with countless other domestic scams etc. Sri Anthonyji could have let the case to be handled by the investigating agencies or let it play out in the courts before acting in haste. These quick decisions leave us bereft of choices. If we blacklist all def. mfgrs. who will we buy from? I am saddened when our newsellers do not ask such basic questions of our policy makers.


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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2009 06:06 
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Barbed wire scam: Role of Armymen under scanner


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2009 19:51 
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Now that Chaudhry and the characters mentioned have been almost shut down. The big fish is a guy called Elul, who is the key link man for US sales to Israel, the guy is also the link in Israeli sales to India and has played a LARGE role in defence sales in Dilli. His corporation is still operating quietly.

Elul Group
Quote:
Active primarily in, but not limited to, Israel, the United States and India, Elul has established longstanding exclusive associations based on professionalism and integrity. The ability to provide multi-disciplinary expertise; meticulous management; comprehensive services and apply decades of experience, are the Group's core essence.

Quote:
The Group is active in aerospace and defense; life sciences; transportation management systems and energy projects, in association with major advanced technologies multi-nationals and Israeli leading corporations.

Quote:
Elul Asia is led by people who have decades of experience in service in various executive representative positions in Asia, including the rapidly growing Indian market.

Supported by hands-on knowledge of local preferences, business culture and performance expectations, Elul Asia is positioned as a preferred outsourcing based "country desk" for the export and program management offerings of leading Israeli corporations. Elul Asia opens the door and manages ambitious projects for leading corporations wishing to conduct business in the region.

Currently, Elul Asia is primarily focused on aerospace & defense and simulation, and is now expanding in other in-demand technology areas.


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2009 04:35 
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Austria set to sue over BAE arms sales
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Austria expects to bring corruption charges in connection with BAE arms sales, the first such prosecution in five years' of bribery investigations all over the world.


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2009 22:23 
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More on Elul: Run out of Tel Aviv by David Kolitz, Elul acts as a commercial agent for Israeli state-owned groups - with Rafael and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) in the forefront - with the Indian authorities. The company relies on local agents like Erwin Kanu in India and receives commissions amounting to between 3 and 6% of the value of contracts it helps to land, such as the sale of Rafael’s Spyder anti-aircraft system last December.

Coproduction issue - Elul's other function is to set up industrial offset agreements between Israeli and Indian companies, an absolute condition of any armaments contract worth over EUR 45 million. For instance, the company organized a tie-up between Rafael and the BEL to co-develop the guidance system for the anti-tank Spike missile. Rafael also signed an agreement with Tata Power to manufacture air defence systems and Tata Motors for armoured vehicles. DRDO joined forces with Rafael and IAI to co-manufacture missiles.


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PostPosted: 30 Jul 2009 05:19 
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Investigation against IAI Israeli Authorities

A newspaper article had appeared in the Times of India, New Delhi edition dated Jan 25, 2008 captioned ‘After Barak, Phalcon deal under cloud’, alleging irregularities on the part of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) in defence contracts including payment of commissions in the procurement of Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft by the Indian Air Force.

The matter was taken up with the Israeli Ministry of Defence who had informed that they had no document or report pertaining to the investigation regarding IAI. Both the Israeli State Comptroller and the Economic Crimes Department in their State Attorney’s Office (in charge of this investigation) had made clear that their investigations focused on alleged IAI procedures and practices without any references or connection whatsoever to the Indian transaction or Indian citizens. Further, the State Comptroller had issued no report on his inquiry and the police investigations ended with no charges being pressed against any person. No other information has been received in this regards.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri P Rajeeve in Rajya Sabha today.


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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2009 05:38 
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Special audit to probe Ordnance contracts: Antony


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2009 05:24 
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Nalanda ordnance factory put on hold: Government


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PostPosted: 22 Aug 2009 20:52 
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Fernandes gets clean chit in Kargil coffin scam


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PostPosted: 22 Aug 2009 21:48 
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wat will happen to ******** not even leave coffins of martyr from corruption.


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