Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Sep 2013 02:13

Kaveri and Kabini are two rivers and no one holds a trademark on those names

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 11:49

Kabini which had issues with hot zones is now able to exceed 700 degree Celsius. As it is flat rated, the development will go on probably as Kabini mk2 and kaveri mk 2. The original Kabini and kaveri project will drive the UCAV etc.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Sep 2013 12:22

Chackojoseph wrote:Kabini which had issues with hot zones is now able to exceed 700 degree Celsius. As it is flat rated, the development will go on probably as Kabini mk2 and kaveri mk 2. The original Kabini and kaveri project will drive the UCAV etc.

Did you mean 1700C , ie 1973K ? That is around the temp that will be needed. 700C is something you did with 60s engines!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 12:33

Really? 1973k? I thought it borders some 1300 -1500 degree Celsius for for GE-414 types with after burner. Kaveri/GE-404 should be lower.

I am willing to be corrected.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 27 Sep 2013 12:36

chackojoseph wrote:Kabini which had issues with hot zones is now able to exceed 700 degree Celsius. As it is flat rated, the development will go on probably as Kabini mk2 and kaveri mk 2. The original Kabini and kaveri project will drive the UCAV etc.

Welcome back!!

700deg C is about 1000deg K (973 deg K, to be precise) - whilst a very good temp to achieve for the HPC stages (specially the later ones), but are you sure about this being achieved for the "hot zone" (which would normally mean the HPT stage)?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 12:44

Thank You. I just passed an HTML statement. Its work in progress for flat rate kaveri-2 (that's not the official designation). The hot zones of Kabini had severe issues, due to which we cannot have the engine suited to commercial usage on LCA. I was referring to the Kaveri engine project closed post above.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Sep 2013 12:52

chackojoseph wrote:Really? 1973k? I thought it borders some 1300 -1500 degree Celsius for for GE-414 types with after burner. Kaveri/GE-404 should be lower.

I am willing to be corrected.

The critical temp is the TET, which is around 1400C to 1800C , ie roughly around 2000K at the absolute highest end. Whatever the number achieved, 700C is too low to be correct.

Around 1700K seems to be the ideal number and my money would be to bet that number is indeed what has been achieved.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 13:16

Ok Vina. I get your point. I just posted the little info I had on the same.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 27 Sep 2013 13:46

No Chacko, pls note that apart from the "hot zone" part of this stmt (which is a mistake) this can still be a major information - so we shouldn't dismiss this as a mere typo/mistake and move on.

Could you pls check on exactly which part of the Core this breaching of 700deg C would have been achieved - it can't be HPT (or even LPT) but if it's anywhere in the later stages (say last 2-3 stages) of the HPC, it's almost a game-changer actually.

Let me explain what I'm trying to say - pls refer to this old post of mine on Compressor blade geometry and thermal loading.

Now 700deg C is the point where Titanium-based compressor blades starts unraveling - but if a higher PR (and improved mass-flow) have been achieved (of say 27-30 OPR etc levels), the ambient temp of the HPC stages will breach that temp quite easily. That would mean Crystal blades (needn't be SCB, can as well be Equiaxed ones), for the HPC stages as well.

This is easier said than done due to machining and manufacturing issues of complicated compressor blade geometry and strength (pls refer to the above linked post of mine) - aka a combination of high transonic/supersonic blade speed regime, Low aspect ratio (aka wide chord) blade design/manufacturing and multi-circular arc profile blade regime.
In short, the holy grail of turbojet/fan Compressor Blade design/manufacturing.

So I think it's worthwhile if you could pls check where in the kabini core have they breached the 700deg C benchmark.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 15:34

hahahha, maitya.. really i was trying to avoid the deeper discussion. Anyway, I will eventually be able to give you some good info on the new project.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Sep 2013 21:39

So what about all the news that Kaveri has problem only in reheat?

Welcome chacko ji

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 06:59

A BR member gave this link on chat IV.Operational Limits table - on page 8 Remember, this is flat rated engine. You cannot compare it apple to apple with variable thrust engines.

Kason thank you and I will be unable to go into specifics as it is in works. At the same time, Since the engine is ready GTRE is trying to use different metal / substance typed to see how they can increase the life of materials used.

The fact Kaveri won't be powering LCA had already dawned back in 2004 after the final ASR was formed. It was supposed to be completed and tested on PV or TD. I don't understand why it is being still repeated that Kaveri is meant for LCA even now. If you notice, a lot of journos have already stopped mentioning Kaveri with LCA unless they are trying to add some history to it. I had debated this very forcefully with FB official defence journos group and most said they understand and is valid. Some people don't want to understand, there is nothing that we can do about it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2013 08:22

chackojoseph wrote:A BR member gave this link on chat IV.Operational Limits table - on page 8 Remember, this is flat rated engine. You cannot compare it apple to apple with variable thrust engines.

Kason thank you and I will be unable to go into specifics as it is in works. At the same time, Since the engine is ready GTRE is trying to use different metal / substance typed to see how they can increase the life of materials used.

The fact Kaveri won't be powering LCA had already dawned back in 2004 after the final ASR was formed. It was supposed to be completed and tested on PV or TD. I don't understand why it is being still repeated that Kaveri is meant for LCA even now. If you notice, a lot of journos have already stopped mentioning Kaveri with LCA unless they are trying to add some history to it. I had debated this very forcefully with FB official defence journos group and most said they understand and is valid. Some people don't want to understand, there is nothing that we can do about it.

IIRC, they are proposing the following for the "Kaveri": Marine, UAV and they will install one on an older LCA, but NOT with the intent of mating with a LCA in the future.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 15:31

Yes. With the focus on LCA Tejas FOC, I don't think they will be experimentally mating Kaveri on LCA models. Every model is counting for run up to IOC and FOC.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Sep 2013 16:05

One layman question sir, can the present product be used for ucav or we need to further modifications? How many hours lifetime - is it correct word? - Kaveri has as things stand today?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 16:34

UCAV dimensions / Specs are not known. If they plan to wrap the UCAV around the engine, it should work as per your question. As per the information, the engine should have same average designed life of similar models. Only certain parts/consumables will be needed to change faster than other similar engines. However, as we go closer to UCAV design stage, most issues would have been sorted.

If you compare the other UCAV project like Neuron, the final engine will will have a thrust between Adour Mk 106 and Snecma M88 (which is comparable to GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri). So, I guess, it will be a downgraded engine.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2013 17:24

CJ,

ANY news on developing engine testing facilities IN India? IF so, what kinds are they proposing or building?

Whatever happened to teh Boeing offer to build a wind tunnel too?

Thanks in advance.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 17:47

Boeings offset credit is being spent on 3.7 mach wind tunnel and High-altitude jet engine testing facility for DRDO. Both projects have clearance. We have to wait for Boeing's announcement on schedules. I think they should be announcing it anytime now. Ground testing facility for engines already exist.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2013 17:56

chackojoseph wrote:Boeings offset credit is being spent on 3.7 mach wind tunnel and High-altitude jet engine testing facility for DRDO. Both projects have clearance. We have to wait for Boeing's announcement on schedules. I think they should be announcing it anytime now. Ground testing facility for engines already exist.

Does that mean that once these two facilities are built, in India, that Indians do not have to go abroad for ANY flight testings of engines? Any idea?

BTW, they were proposing to install the Kaveri on the PV-1.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Sep 2013 18:19

If you mean aircraft engine, then yes we don't have to go. If you mean scramjet kind of engines, I don't know.

If French involvement includes kaveri testing in France? I don't know.

Kaveri - LCA testing http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1517845

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Sep 2013 18:22

Thank u cj sir. Hope Kaveri is useful there.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 02 Oct 2013 03:37

From The Hindu: New tailwinds for Kaveri engine

The indigenous Kaveri aero engine, conceived to power home-built fighter plane Tejas but generally written off as a 25-year, Rs. 2,100-crore drain on resources, now looks set to resume where it left off two years ago and complete the last lap of its development.

A surprisingly strong nudge from the government and prospects of good funds in recent months have given tailwinds to the engine programme; a revised proposal has been made on the government’s advice for the remaining part of the Kaveri activity, according to DRDO Director General (Aero) K. Tamilmani and Director, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) C.P. Ramanarayanan. They did not elaborate on what the proposals are.

The Kaveri’s last big activity was in 2011, when it took a flight test in Russia fitted on the Il-76 transport plane. Although 90 per cent of the flight envelop was covered, at least five problems showed up, according to scientists.

Since then, the GTRE has worked on the nagging issues and would take Kaveri to its logical conclusion up to certification, Dr. Tamilmani said on Tuesday while announcing an upcoming conference of the organisation.

Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engine’s performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards.

“When we do that, we will have the first indigenous [aero]engine with proven and certified performance for exploitation” — meaning it would be rendered suitable for fitting on future Indian-made military or passenger aircraft — Dr. Ramanarayanan told The Hindu later.

Dr. Tamilmani said a ready engine would precede an indigenous aircraft programme, a model followed worldwide.

The aero engine has been a vital but missing link in the country’s military aviation, which has to buy them from foreign makers at huge costs. Each aircraft needs to replace its engines three or four times during its lifetime.

In 2008, Kaveri was de-linked from its original platform, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Earlier this year, senior scientists said it would be used to fly unmanned air vehicles of the armed forces. Its derivatives could go into powering ships, too.

The Ministry of Defence is buying 99 F404 jet engines for the LCA from global engines major GE for Rs. 3,000 crore.

The DRDO has missed the LCA mandate but still hopes to achieve the final objective, possibly for other equally important projects, Dr. Ramanarayanan said.

A 2011 survey by the GTRE estimated that this decade, India could spend Rs. 1.8 lakh crore to buy engines plus another Rs. 4 lakh crore for their upkeep. The DRDO scientists admit to slip-ups and lost opportunities.

In a separate activity, military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is developing engines for its helicopters and trainer aircraft by 2018.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Oct 2013 05:14

VinodTK wrote:From The Hindu: New tailwinds for Kaveri engine
..........................................

A surprisingly strong nudge from the government and prospects of good funds in recent months have given tailwinds to the engine programme; a revised proposal has been made on the government’s advice for the remaining part of the Kaveri activity, according to DRDO Director General (Aero) K. Tamilmani and Director, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) C.P. Ramanarayanan. They did not elaborate on what the proposals are.

....................................................

Very nice.

A huge thanks to Snecma and the rest who declined to participate.

A maaha thanks to Nidra Devi, who let the GoI wake up to realize that they NEED an engine one way or the other.

My time machines tells me 2020 is the year to await.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Oct 2013 07:47

Well some common sense at last. Kaveri may not have made the grade for the LCA,but as many on BR have been saying,it could be used for marine and UCAV powerplants.It is also good that the DRDO scientists admitted to "slipups and lost opportunities".Those who gave us highly optimistic dates of its arrival over the last two decades have long retired from the scene of action.Here is an old report on Kaveri and its planned marine applications.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 089_1.html

Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy

The indigenous Kaveri aircraft engine, soon to make its debut flight, lacks the muscle needed by India’s Tejas light combat aircraft, which the engine was designed to power. In its present form, the Kaveri will never power a modern fighter.

But the engine’s technology — developed by the Defence R&D Organisation, over two decades, at a cost of Rs 3000 crore — will not be wasted. The Indian Navy is snapping up the Kaveri for powering its growing fleet of warships.

Business Standard has learnt that the navy has officially informed the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (the DRDO laboratory that developed the Kaveri) that naval warships will needs 40 Kaveri Marine Gas Turbines (KMGTs) over the next 15 years.

In an important signal of its support, the navy has agreed to fund 25 per cent of the cost of the KMGT project.

GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The navy has extensively tested these engines at Visakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power.

Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide “boost power”, needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide India’s latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 Mw of boost. The Kaveri’s more modest 12 Mw is sufficient only for smaller warships.

While the marine Kaveri’s basic performance has been established (even the PM has seen a demonstration in Visakhapatnam), the GTRE Director, Dr Mohana Rao, is not yet satisfied with the basic design.

“So far, the KMGT is just a spin-off from the aero version”, Rao told Business Standard in Bangalore. “I want to give the navy an engine with far greater endurance. An aero engine’s life is just 3000 hours; a marine engine’s life should be 30,000 hours. I must physically test the KMGT for at least 15,000 hours.”

GTRE is going ahead with developing 3-4 test engines and beginning trials within three years. The trials will be conducted in a marine environment, which will include high humidity, and prolonged exposure to salt.

“We plan to begin delivery in about 6 years”, says the GTRE Director, “We hope to keep the cost below Rs 25-30 crores, which is considerably cheaper than buying imported gas turbines.”

Earlier this year, the US State Department had stopped General Electric from fitting its LM-2500 turbines on the INS Shivalik, apparently because GE had not obtained proper permissions from the US government.

Other than the 40 KMGTs, the Indian Navy has also issued a letter, on 6 th April 09, laying out a requirement for 42 Gas Turbine Generators, or GTGs. These are de-rated versions of the marine Kaveri, which will be used for generating electrical power on warships. Each GTG generates 1.2 Megawatts of power.

The Indian Navy, an enthusiastic proponent of indigenisation, proposes to replace the diesel generators fitted on older warships with the Kaveri GTG. If it performs well over a period of time, the new-generation warships will also get electrical power from the Kaveri GTG. Currently, only the Rajput and Delhi class of destroyers use gas turbines for power generation.

This also highlights the forward and visionary attitude of the IN which has the best record of indigenisation of the 3 services.The news that HAL is also developing engines for its helicopters is a very welcome sign.In fact if the US offer of JVs is taken up seriously,engine development for a whole regime of aeroengines right from UAVs,turboprops which are very fuel efficient,fighter engines,for transports,etc.,could be on the anvil.Raytheon is anyway to supply new engines for the Jaguar upgrades,and the GE 414 has been chosen for the LCA MK-2.Further development of Kaveri could slot into a whole cocktail of engine development.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Oct 2013 11:08

Kaveri may eventually make it to LCA. The engine has been developed and there is no point using only its derivatives. I hope people get the drift. I have said this back in 2007 Error 404 – Performance Not Found . Some LCA might get eventually get equipped with Kaveri. It needs to be flown to finish its life cycle and learning's adopted.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2013 12:18

GTRE director has told TOI today that kaveri will be fitted on Mig29 early next year for testing.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 02 Oct 2013 12:24

chackojoseph wrote:Kabini which had issues with hot zones is now able to exceed 700 degree Celsius. As it is flat rated, the development will go on probably as Kabini mk2 and kaveri mk 2. The original Kabini and kaveri project will drive the UCAV etc.

vina wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Really? 1973k? I thought it borders some 1300 -1500 degree Celsius for for GE-414 types with after burner. Kaveri/GE-404 should be lower.

I am willing to be corrected.
The critical temp is the TET, which is around 1400C to 1800C , ie roughly around 2000K at the absolute highest end. Whatever the number achieved, 700C is too low to be correct.

Around 1700 K seems to be the ideal number and my money would be to bet that number is indeed what has been achieved.

Now from Technology Focus Oct. 09

High Pressure and Low Pressure Turbines

Single-stage cooled high pressure turbine has been designed for an isentropic efficiency of 85 per cent and a maximum turbine entry temperature (TET) of 1700 K. Navier Stokes codes such as TASC flow and NUMECA have been used for design and analysis. The LP turbine rotor stage is unshrouded with an isentropic efficiency of 85 per cent.

I think Vina garu is right and CJ you need to reconfirm your numbers.

Regarding Kaveri Marine, data from Aeromag Jan-Feb-13 issue GTRE director's interview

Could you share your thoughts on spinoffs, particularly marine gas turbines?

GTRE has demonstrated the performance of a Marine GT to the Navy as a Technology demonstrator. The gap on endurance requirements observed during these tests is a challenge which is being addressed. GTRE’s designers have analysed the test data and identified the design changes required to fix the issue. A higher class of marine engine with improved performance and endurance - as per the requirements of the Navy - is on the drawing board. This engine is also likely to be suitable for land based power plants providing high quality of power suitable for high end applications like robotics, bio-medical etc. Also, the Kaveri dry engine is planned to be used as a power plant for an experimental autonomous air vehicle for disaster management.

Regarding integration of Kaveri with LCA, from the same source

What’s the latest on the Kaveri engine? GTRE’s association with LCA Tejas programme?

GTRE has so far developed 9 prototypes of Kaveri engines and 4 prototypes of Kabini (Core) engines. The engines have run cumulatively for over 2200 hours at ground and altitude conditions for various requirements including performance, operability, endurance, environmental etc. Further endurance testing is under progress at GTRE. Two major milestones achieved viz. successful completion of Official Altitude Testing (OAT) and completion of first block of flights of Kaveri engine in Flying Test Bed (FTB) have demonstrated the technological capability and maturing of the indigenous efforts. A Kaveri engine prototype was integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia and flight tests have been successfully carried out. Issues required to be addressed have been identified and are being addressed and it is planned to commence flight trials for technology demonstration of Kaveri engine with LCA Tejas Mk-I in about three years
time.

So 2016 is the year we have to wait for, for seeing a flight of LCA with Kaveri.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Oct 2013 12:50

Sagar G,

I have already said I am not getting into this debate. I have already given a link http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1517732 . I have also not specified the area of temperature in my first post. Please read what i wrote.

Hindu's Tailwind story is another source which is telling you what I said in my originally. Kaveri project is not closed.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 02 Oct 2013 13:09

CJ,

You said that

Kabini which had issues with hot zones is now able to exceed 700 degree Celsius.

I put out some data about the "hot zone" since there was a disagreement regarding the number. It's fine if you don't want to continue with it I was only putting out some official data and trying to make sense of the situation.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Oct 2013 13:40

The figure is correct. I have given you the link and what to look for. You are interpreting the sentence in another POV.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Oct 2013 16:10

http://www.easa.europa.eu/certification ... 052012.pdf

Please check (IV.Operational Limits)

May be 700 figure is for "Maximum Interturbine Temperature (ITT)": (Measured average of six thermocouples)

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Oct 2013 22:58

Singha wrote:GTRE director has told TOI today that kaveri will be fitted on Mig29 early next year for testing.

AYE!!! finally! Hope we are buying a few extra birds from Natasha for this. which can be heavily instrumented.

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Oct 2013 23:22

^ Well it could very well be that we would be flying the Kaveri again to Ru for fitting it on a testbed Mig-29.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 23:30

We dont have any spare MiG-29s of our own anyhow...the fleet is just around 3 squadrons.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Oct 2013 01:48

No we don't and it doesn't make sense going there for this. Get the migs here, tweak at home. Far more bang for the buck. Keep two mig-29s with one kaveri each and a third with two once our comfort level passes 100-200 hours. Buy 3-5 migs for this work. Keep one constantly in air to get those frequent flier miles to declare IOC/FOC.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Oct 2013 06:03

The MiG-29 test bed proposal is not new. It is as per originally planned, which dates back to early 2000's. It is not as simple as showing a Kaveri in MiG-29 and flying it. We simply do not have experts who can convert MiG-29 as a test bed and we do not know what parameters to look in while testing.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Oct 2013 16:06

We can pick up a old Mig-29 from Russia to convert it into Engine testing platform. I think we need to convert an An-32 or Avro for initial testing and Mig-29 or Su-27 for subsequent testing of extended flight envelope.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Oct 2013 16:10

they could have done that themself if we asked...did an initial test on russian mig

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Oct 2013 16:17

the Chinese seem to have progressed well with the WS-10A-type, after testing on Su-27 derivatives, it was seen powering the single-engined J-10B. Using an indigenous engine to power a single-engined plane is truly remarkable achievement for them. After remaining behind in the development curve for some time, the Chinese seem to have galloped ahead of us in this area.

To date, there are no reliable reports on what the uprated WS-10A or the improved J-9 engines have as thrust performance figures. And also anemic investments on Kaveri engines giving anemic results also seem to be the drawback faced by GTRE as compared to their Chinese counterparts who are ready to splurge much bigger amounts consistently on turbofan development. Also Chinese manufacturing prowess will naturally enable it to gallop ahead on metallurgy and investment into dedicated test platforms like in house IL-76 test beds means that their turnaround times are much lower than ours.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Oct 2013 18:41

As tech progress goes on it would be easier for engine tech to accommodate performance parameters. Data on reliable performance should be interesting for J-series fighters.