Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[svinayak]

And A desi is running GE CMC programme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is1BBilkyUM

India DRDO can create Labs similar to GE. It needs sustained investment and leadership

Airforce need to create a professional institution to include aircraft design and development.
The commission should have the following components

AIR FORCE MILITARY COMMISSION
Operational Wing ( Air bases and Training)
Manufacturing base ( Aircraft and Avionics and industry )
Engine research and manufacturing ( Lab and manufacturing )

[NRao]

Time to disengage from the DTTI Jet Engine Joint Working Group. Why waste funds on that? Not worth it.

[Manish_Sharma]

Time to disengage from the DTTI Jet Engine Joint Working Group. Why waste funds on that? Not worth it.

Yup since anyway amrikans got there lemoa, now why put them through the pains of denying technology?

[NRao]

Oh.

I thought the two RMs were "satisfied" with the progress made WRT the Jet Engine JWG. No?

My understanding is that GE/DRDO have agreed on the starting point and that they will jointly develop the Ge-414 EPE (or close to it), India can manufacture it, etc, but will not get any IP. Cannot port the techs to other engines - just like the AL-31 - without GE's permission/cost associated with IP.

So, India, first and foremost, will get an engine for the AMCA (with the required thrust, size, weight, etc). Secondly, India will jointly develop the engine along with GE (JV, like Brahmos) India can manufacture it in-house (and I suspect use it anywhere India pleases).

I would expect some techs to be black-boxed.

India wanted to co-develop the GE F-414 EPE and share the IP, it is the IP that GE declined, not the tech.

[Vivek K]

India needs to invest in facilities required and go it by herself for the engine. They must fly the kaveri to gain experience and get feedback. Merely joining JWGs will do nothing.

[svinayak]

India needs to invest in facilities required and go it by herself for the engine. They must fly the kaveri to gain experience and get feedback. Merely joining JWGs will do nothing.

There will be four engine roadmap in India

One will be JV with GE
Second will be with the French (Kaveri)/ Russia

Two more Indian design for the Jet engine,

[JayS]

Oh.

I thought the two RMs were "satisfied" with the progress made WRT the Jet Engine JWG. No?

My understanding is that GE/DRDO have agreed on the starting point and that they will jointly develop the Ge-414 EPE (or close to it), India can manufacture it, etc, but will not get any IP. Cannot port the techs to other engines - just like the AL-31 - without GE's permission/cost associated with IP.

So, India, first and foremost, will get an engine for the AMCA (with the required thrust, size, weight, etc). Secondly, India will jointly develop the engine along with GE (JV, like Brahmos) India can manufacture it in-house (and I suspect use it anywhere India pleases).

I would expect some techs to be black-boxed.

India wanted to co-develop the GE F-414 EPE and share the IP, it is the IP that GE declined, not the tech.

What's remained to develop in EPE version?? Only thing they are looking to for is a all blisk Fan module which will be outsourced to tier-1 supplier. GTRE does not have good 3D aerodynamics capability if you believe their recent Fan module tender. So unless GE handholds GTRE I don't see how GTRE can do this Fan module, else the engine program will drag on. Rest all the things are already done and only needed to be put together. Even if GE planning to being in some CMC stuff from AETP i don't think we will get so much as a peek inside it (I don't think they will though beyond what already is there in existing engines that is CMC nozzle for HPT, CMC combustion liner etc).

There will be four engine roadmap in India

One will be JV with GE
Second will be with the French (Kaveri)/ Russia

Two more Indian design for the Jet engine,

Speculation/Expectation or this is official?? Any source??

[NRao]

What's remained to develop in EPE version?

Have not kept up with developments, but, a redesigned core for the F-414. Expected to increase thrust to 120Kn, be some 20%(?) more fuel eff and much lower maintenance. My understanding is that India would be happy with 110 Kn (more than enough for the AMCA is what I read).

USAF gave a $1 billion grant this year to develop the 6th gen, variable fighter jet engine, expected around 2019 (PW also has a similar grant).

And, USN was supposed to have started their upgrade project for the F-18 engines in 2016.

I would wait for details from the JEJWG. However, based on Parrikar/Carter talks it seems an engine is in the making. For details need to wait. The core part is from GE internal efforts.

CMC stuff

I expect that to be the black box tech. GE will make them and ship them to India. But the AMCA, my expectation, will have the latest and greatest.

[JayS]

^^Check brar_w's post two pages ago, EPE = EDP + new Fan. Check this link as a cross-check:
http://www.geaviation.com/press/militar ... 21204.html

This agrees to my understanding of the project as well. There is no redesign of core, only LP system redesign and modification of cycle - Performance at the expense of Life. Even if there was, it already a done deal. Modifying Fan isn't a great deal for GE so they are looking to outsource it (400% sure on this). Basically all the stuff is on the table. Its just have to be put together. This is true for USN F414-EPE program and others such as Gripen NG. This program should have commenced in 2016 but due to lack of funding from US govt it was postponed.

Redesigned core would be as good as a new engine program itself. Is there a India specific deep upgrade version of F414 with core redesign and all?? I don't know. I never heard of it. I don't think so.

F414 is already almost a generation behind F135/F136 engines. By the time this EPE comes they would have a next gen engine with true variable cycle in LP system (AETP program). No I do not expect AMCA to have latest and greatest.

The latest funding you mentioned is for variable cycle tech in LP compressor (AETP program). By 2019 they want to finish full scale engine testing. It will be atleast 2025 by the time we see it operationalized. The PW funding from USN is for variable cycle tech for turbines. This will pave way for next step after 2025.

[NRao]

My bad on the 6th Gen engine funding. That is a totally diff thread, agreed.

However WRT the "EPE", for the AMCA, I think, it is in relation to the F414-GE-INS6 - the engine prepared for the LCA MKII. IIRC, the redesign of the core was WRT that engine. I could be wrong, but my impression was INS6 + EDP + EPE. ?????

(Where is Brar, BTW?)

[JayS]

Ha...here comes the fun part - the conditional Love that US has for India.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 039799.cms

For some reason I cannot copy the text from ET site.

I don't think this is going anywhere, rather than wasting time/energy with a begging bowl we should just make it our National Project. Like IGMDP we need an Integrated Engine Development Program (IEDP) for Jet Engines and IC engines of various classes. Draw a road map and get on working with it.

[Manish_Sharma]

Ha...here comes the fun part - the conditional Love that US has for India.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 039799.cms

For some reason I cannot copy the text from ET site.

I don't think this is going anywhere, rather than wasting time/energy with a begging bowl we should just make it our National Project. Like IGMDP we need an Integrated Engine Development Program (IEDP) for Jet Engines and IC engines of various classes. Draw a road map and get on working with it.

Here courtesty Singha ji in US - Bharat relation thread, is the article :

NEW DELHI: The US has linked the future of a joint jet engine development project to a proposal to manufacture American combat aircraft under the Make in India initiative, with Pentagon formally putting all options on the table, including sharing of high-end weapons, radar and power plant technology, during Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's recent visit.

Sources told ET that India will now be able to formally evaluate two proposals from US companies Boeing (F/A 18 Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F16 Super Viper) to make jets in India with Pentagon giving a written assurance for transfer of technology.

A renewed push for the jet aircraft project came during the Parrikar visit, with an assurance that high-end jet engine technology that India seeks for its future combat aircraft programmes is also on the table.

In fact, officials told ET that US Secretary for Defence Ashton Carter may be visiting India as early as December to take the process forward. Sources who took part in the discussions said that while in April, when the two US companies had first offered the two jets for a Make in India plan, there was reluctance in Washington on how much technology could be shared.

However recent initiatives, including India's entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and the signing of a military logistics support agreement, have changed things on the ground.

It is learnt that the offer from Boeing, which makes the F/A 18, is for the setting up of a new worldclass production facility in India that would cater to the production of futuristic combat aircraft.

Suddenly our 80% airforce will be dependent on US, from C-17, C-130, LCA Tejas Engine, PHALCON system, and F-18 / F-16. Imagine world power Bharat manufacturing f-18 or f-16 in 2025

[Yagnasri]

F18 may be a better option among the bad options.

[Hitesh]

A total waste of time. Just ignore the F-16s and F-18s offer and keep plugging away at the LCA program and the Kaveri program.

[Bheeshma]

I agree, ignore the offer and pour money into Kaveri and follow on. F-18 brings nothing to the table, F-16 is a joke. I hope IAF chief puts his foot down on this.

[rajsunder]

I agree, ignore the offer and pour money into Kaveri and follow on. F-18 brings nothing to the table, F-16 is a joke. I hope IAF chief puts his foot down on this.

Mig-29 K is not up to mark and the service levels are abominable (10% - 15%). Is that how we are supposed to run our carriers??? I think F-18 sits perfectly in to the role for our carrier operations.

[Suresh S]

Agree with u guys . National aero- engine project both public and private players together . Pour resources into kaveri or similar and Tejas/amca. My gut feeling tells me govt is not going to do it and go for one of the american planes. I think in the long term it is a mistake.

[Bheeshma]

That's BS spread by media that Mig29k is not up to scratch. And F-18 does not bring anything to IAF and IN was and will never be interested in F-18.

[Indranil]

Mig-29 K is not up to mark and the service levels are abominable (10% - 15%). Is that how we are supposed to run our carriers??? I think F-18 sits perfectly in to the role for our carrier operations.

There are two questions:
1. Where are you getting that 10-15% figure.? CAG said this: Mig-29L ranging from 15.93 per cent to 37.63 per cent and that of MiG-29KUB ranging from 21.30 per cent to 47.14 per cent.
2. And what is the cost paid for that figure. If we pay the same amount as required to get the F-18 and maintain it, what will be the availability of the Mig-29Ks. Till now we have paid less than half price for everything!!!

[NRao]

Someone had posted that there are (potentially?) 4 engine threads, one of the being the Kaveri. So, it appears, that the Kaveri will go ahead no matter what. ?????

On the F-teen front, we need to wait and see what is on the table. IF it is JETJWG effort IP (even some of it) + F-teen manufacturing techs/processes + supply chain.......... among a few others ("including sharing of high-end weapons, radar and power plant technology") ................. it just maybe worth it. The F-teens, themselves, would be in addition to all that.

Let us see. Should not take that much longer - would say end of this year.

[Manish_Sharma]

................. it just maybe worth it. The F-teens, themselves, would be in addition to all that.

Let us see. Should not take that much longer - would say end of this year.

Huh, very sad to read such lines, when you were saying Rafale is too outdated not worth manufactring here, JUST LEASE OUTDATED RAFALE TILL 2035 AND THEN DUMP IT.
Of course teens ages ahead of Rafale are going to be still a pristine new tech even in 2035, no suggestion of JUST LEASING THEM INSTEAD OF MANUFACTURING?

sad very sad ... what double standards

[SaiK]

from AMCA dhaaga

There is nothing to explain. It can, and is, without the AB. But Kaveri is not production ready yet.

did we achieve then the 87kN w.o AB?

[Indranil]

We got very close to the designed military thrust of 51 kN. The engine to be installed in IUSAV will not have an afterburner.

[JayS]

from AMCA dhaaga

There is nothing to explain. It can, and is, without the AB. But Kaveri is not production ready yet.

did we achieve then the 87kN w.o AB?

It was 81-82kN IIRC and actual achieved was 78kN. Designed wet thrust. 87kN w/o AB is a big deal.Even AL-31FP have only about 75ish dry thrust.

[SaiK]

me culpa. my typo reversed "78". so we did achieve is the take away fro my question.

dunno, why shiv's question would not get an emphatic answer. why Kaveri as is not in a production ready state?

[habal]

looking at the above discussion and the performance parameters already achieved by K-9/K-10, I am sure that these will be fielded in the LCA eventually. The only restriction now is that LCA being a new platform is being given a tried-and-tested GE engine otherwise the naysayers will have a field day if something goes wrong. So first few hundred LCAs will come equipped with GE.

[JayS]

^^ Its still far away from the time when it can be place in LCA. Many thousands of hours of ground and flight test will be needed. I am not saying its not doable, but sadly the speed with which the procurement of Flight test bed and all is going on, God only knows if and when that time will come.

Was just looking at some old PPT regarding F135 lift fan system. They did over 23000 hours of ground + flight testing for that one. Just look at that number for a sec and imagine.

[vera_k]

How about other versions of the engine? No news lately about the spin-offs to power tanks, locomotives and ships.

[JayS]

Sadly there is no news, yes. Kaveri turned out to be fantastic for Naval applications from what I heard and there was a plan for developing naval version in 5-6 years, that was 2-3yrs ago atleast. No news on this one. Locomotive engines, no plan as far as I know. For tank it will be too big. There is a separate gas turbine engine project for tank IIRC. There was a tender to manufacture some 20 Kaveri engines, its more than 1 yrs on that one, no news for that too. Generally when everything is going fine we dont hear anything, MSM only wakes up when things are not going well. So thats one fools hope we can hold on to.

[SaiK]

If at all any self-immolation happens in India, it must be Kaveri. sorry folks, we need serious backing to Kaveri. Get her going again!

[SaiK]

http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence ... 487326.cms

The French have also agreed in principle to collaborate on the Kaveri engine which lacks the real power thrust needed to fly the Tejas.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

90-110 kN can eventually get into Migs, LCA and AMCA in addition to Rafale upgrades

[NRao]

Not sure what Snecma has in mind when they say they will provide the $1 billion funding, for an estimated 30-35% of the work to complete the Kaveri. But, I highly doubt that such an effort would add to the knowledge base within India to make India an engine power. India will have (hopefully) a robust Kaveri - to even perhaps power the LCA MKII.

My gut feel is that the deal with GE will provide better knowledge. But, need to wait it out.



What India has is a good set of people who know how to design an engine. IMHO, what India does not have is a research base for Material Science. And, unless India builds that core, India will get stuck at each step. Once MetSci is mastered, then still the associated step of manufacturing remains. But I think that is more easily mastered. ????

While on that topic, what is preventing them from acquiring platforms - say MiG-29s - as test beds? I assume there are efforts to build wind tunnels.

[Vivek K]

Decades of manufacturing engines under TOT haven't taught us a whole lot it seems. What would be different here?

What people are pretending to not understand is - why would Snecma train its competitor? A billion or two is nothing for such tech.

India needs original research in Metallurgy and guts for risk taking. The Mig test bed is extremely important. But it seems that IAF/ GOI are happy throwing money away to foreign vendors rather than invest in local industry.

[JayS]

X-posting from Raffy thread

No - actually HAL has nothing to do with Kaveri, Kaveri is GTRE. Kaveri's issues were not SCB as far as I can tell but there was a fundamental "error in calculation" of the core engine itself which would need redesign from core stage. So the Kaveri is where it is - it is surely usable but probably not for Tejas

The other problem about PSUs and "young engineers" is they will not stay under a rotten inefficient hierarchy of old gobermint codgers - so attrition is a huge issue. But somehow HAL has retained youngsters for HTT 40 at least

SCBs are being made by Koraput HAL as well as by MDN - I have some images of the latter Technically HAL (or any company) can use the tech developed at MDN if they need blades - but it wont be MDN's business to make engine blades. Only the metallurgical takniki

For Kaveri onlee I think

HAL Koraput manufactured Kaveri - most of it. SCB for Kaveri are being imported from Snecma for now, because HAL couldn't make it for Kaveri. They only knew how to make it for Al-31 until few yrs ago. Perhaps now they have a better understanding of the process after playing around with it, but still not to the level where they can make it for Kaveri, per someone who has worked in Koraput.

I am aware of Midhani SCBs. But way we are funding engine program, it would take minimum 5-6yrs for us to industrialise the SCB take still.

Don't think there's anything wrong in Kabini core, else they would have never achieved dry thrust design value. The short fall is in wet thrust. IMO they should not have gone for flat rating. It was too much to chew in first bite.

[NRao]

Decades of manufacturing engines under TOT haven't taught us a whole lot it seems. What would be different here?

Is that even possible? It is my understanding that a ToT would perhaps, at best, be able to duplicate, but not extract knowledge to design ones own.

??????

What people are pretending to not understand is - why would Snecma train its competitor? A billion or two is nothing for such tech.

Snecma is proposing to complete what GTRE set out to do. So, perhaps, show the way just in that sliver. I very much doubt that knowledge transfer could be applied beyond the Kaveri.

India needs original research in Metallurgy and guts for risk taking. The Mig test bed is extremely important. But it seems that IAF/ GOI are happy throwing money away to foreign vendors rather than invest in local industry.

Perplexing. Suspect other projects are important. With no real engine in sight, why invest on a test platform.

[Vivek K]

Rao sahab! Perplexed am I by your post. Last we heard, GTRE is still working and not disbanded.

Are you informing us that the Kaveri is now defunct? If not then what is the issue with a flying testbed? Or are you suggesting that it shouldn't be flown?

[Vivek K]

While on that topic, what is preventing them from acquiring platforms - say MiG-29s - as test beds? I assume there are efforts to build wind tunnels.

Perplexing!! Short term memory loss?

[shiv]

X-posting from Raffy thread
Don't think there's anything wrong in Kabini core, else they would have never achieved dry thrust design value. The short fall is in wet thrust. IMO they should not have gone for flat rating. It was too much to chew in first bite.

There is nothing wrong with the core - but the problem is increased demand for thrust from the Kaveri for LCA - and what I heard was that this is not going to be possible without redesigning the core. Anyhow this information is itself 7-8 years old now.

I am hoping to see a couple of new engines appear - including that HAL effort. It is ironic that GTRE first made the HJE 2500 (for the HF 24) and now the Kaveri and our nation has not bothered to design a single aircraft around an engine we have. What a waste. Whenever I try to imagine why we did this my mind simply takes me in the direction of concluding that as a people we have zero esteem in our own work and will always look at some foreign entity as far better. This attitude exists in govt and the armed forces as well as the public sphere. If the Chinese are ahead it is because they are willing to give their own people a chance and accept failures (even if they do not make failures public). We consider ourselves failed even before we start

[saumitra_j]

+ 1 Million Shiv saar, we simply don't value our own work. As far as Kaveri is concerned, we need to understand a few things about how they graduate from static testing to high altitude testing in a 4 engined aircraft to a two engine aircraft and then finally to a single engined aircraft. As of AI 2015, Kaveri had not done the required number of hours of static/ test on 4 engined aircraft before it could be considered for two engined aircraft for various reasons (UPA's stupidity and criminal negligence being the biggest of them). When it comes to testing on a two engined aircraft, it is not so simple as IAF needs to have a spare airframe which in itself can be a big hurdle, even if all other things are done. I hope there is serious funding being made available by NDA but there has been no public news so far on the developments of the Kaveri.

[shiv]

It is not clear to me that India is taking engines seriously. To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes " When you eliminate all probable causes what remains is the answer, no matter how improbable it may seem"

Right here on BRF we have seen for over a decade and even now, well informed and educated people talking about "transfer of engine tech" and "Getting help from Sweden/SNECMA" for engines. Perhaps there is a genuine widespread belief that these things can be bought or that the knowhow will somehow magically appear out of nowhere. This is a deep misunderstanding (and fundamental ignorance) of science and high tech engineering based on that science. It is knowledge and human skill. You can get knowledge but human skill can only come with doing it. Engines require funding and effort and readiness to face failure but continue funding and effort. Also removal of the mythology that Indians create for themselves about how easy it must be but our people are simply corrupt/stupid.