Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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member_26147
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_26147 »

^ Thanks for the informative post! I agree. GTRE should be lauded for its efforts. Its not easy developing a 3rd gen engine considering India is still very weak in industrial machining. In addition, we should encourage and give tax breaks to companies that do engine work in India so we can cross-pollinate these efforts for other areas like cars and trains, for which Indian manufacturers still import engines from abroad.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

please reverse back to mr cage's response on SC blades.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=120
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

The problem discovered in Kaveri was in LP in flying testbed, so all this breast beating by GTRE on exotic material technology is useless, they have not been able to reach M53 level 30-40 year old performance level yet
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

Getting the right thrust is the requirement quality attribute for any turbines. The precision is so fine, that a small change here and there can bleed off! and your requirement is not met.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »





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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Neela »

Manish
The first video is the Laghu Shakti engine. Picture from AI 2013 here.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

vic wrote:The problem discovered in Kaveri was in LP in flying testbed, so all this breast beating by GTRE on exotic material technology is useless, they have not been able to reach M53 level 30-40 year old performance level yet
Vicji, interesting point that you bring up here, trying to do a comparo of Kaveri with M53 technology-wise. So let's examine it in a slightly more detail.

But before that, I think you're referring to the P2 version of the M53 (and not the -2 and -5 versions) while comparing it with Kaveri, right?
The same P2 version that went into production in 1990 (IIRC) after being flight-qualified around 1987 (again IIRC) - which in itself is an upgrade of the M53-2 version developed earlier. Basically, all of these versions were developed as a part of the M53 program that started in 1967 mind you, and took almost 30 yrs to have the P2 version realized - and only after after having a fully productionised and flight certified -2 (and -5 version as well) versions (natural progression in any tech devt program of this kind, where-in teh core tech is developed first, and followed by incremental technological and performance upgrades).

Anyway, assuming that you were referring to the P2 version (and not the -2 and -5 version) of the M53, pls note the following:

Performance Wise:
1) Kaveri has better Dry and Wet TWR - 45(D) and 71(W) N/Kg compared to 42(D) and 62(W) N/Kg of the P2 (that too assuming the achieved weight of Kaveri and not the design weight)


Basic Design Wise:
1) A double shaft design of Kaveri is more contemporary than the single shaft design of M53-P2. Also the shaft independence of the LPC/Fan-LPT from the HPC-HPT spool, ensures better efficiency (independent speed regulation) plus providing better post-stall recovery options.

2) No IGV tech in M53 series - again more contemporary design, a very useful fail-safe feature towards ensuring operation within compressor surge margin
Note: The angle of incidence of the inlet air to the first compressor rotor can be controlled by these, depending upon the rotational speed of the compressor stage, thereby ensuring the compressor operates with-in the stall-free operating range.

3a) Higher Mass-Flow for M53-P2 at 94Kg/sec (opposed to 78kg/sec of Kaveri)
3b) Higher BPR for M53-P2 at 0.36 (opposed to 0.16 of Kaveri)
Both possible due to the intended airframe of M53 (Mirage) allowed for a larger diameter engine (inlet dia of 796mm - compared to that of 780mm for Kaveri).
Note: Of course, higher Mass-flow directly translates to higher Thrust (even without increase in TeT or OPR etc.), and for a similar efficiency levels of a core, higher BPR will allow comparatively lower SFC levels etc.


Material Wise:
1) HPT blades - both uses DS blades. While the M53-P2 uses 3rd Gen DS blades consisting of approx 3% of Re (this was shown to better than the 1st Gen SCBs and very slightly lesser than 2nd Gen SCBs of 1990s vintage).

plus a few more of such differences ...


So IMO, yes absolute performance parameter-wise (like Thrust Rating, BPR etc.) Kaveri is yet to achieve what the M53-P2 had achieved in 1990s, but then isn't Kaveri spec'd at a higher technoligical and even performance level than the P2, in the first place. :|
Plus of course, the M53 engine series, because of it's Weight (1500Kg) and Dia (and maybe Length as well), was/is completely unsuitable for the LCA anyway - so this type of comparision is not fair, IMHO.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

we need to have kaveri on board LCA TD platform. whatever t:w it has... now is that ratio itself a problem to port the engine? meaning, it will never pass the validations for a lift off?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Neela wrote:Manish
The first video is the Laghu Shakti engine. Picture from AI 2013 here.
Ahh! Thanks Neela ji.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

Deleted
Last edited by vic on 30 Apr 2013 02:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

How many Kaveri are flying in operational aircraft, as you are comparing a production version with Kaveri test bed version. Even with present output-performance Kaveri is still ten year away from production.
Last edited by vic on 30 Apr 2013 02:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

Moving goal posts cannot help anything.

However, I just do not think the Kaveri as followed a worse trajectory than any of the other engines.

We all would have loved for it to be fruitful far more earlier, but then that is the way this beast behaves. And, we have been through these discussions for ages.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

vic wrote:How many Kaveri are flying in operational aircraft, as you are comparing a production version with Kaveri test bed version.
Not sure what you really mean here ... what has performance and technical parameter comparison got to do with operational and test-bed versions etc.
Either way, you'd bought in M53 performance etc earlier, implicitly indicating it to be superior to Kaveri, which I thought needed clarifying around the actual design and performance parameters of both - being operational or test-bed doesn't change these parameters.

For others, pls note that another anecdotal point which I thought of bringing out earlier (but didn't), was to point out that the very fact the Eco core was considered for Kaveri once (as a part of the Snecma JV etc stupidity) :evil: , is a good-enough indicator that the M53 core etc is atleast a gen below on what GTRE had attempted in Kaveri - such audacity from the turd-world SDRE fellows, isn't it? :roll:
vic wrote:Even with present output-performance Kaveri is still ten year away from production.
Hmmm ... actually Kaveri will not be in any serial production etc as there's no airframe that is ready to take it. The airframe for which it was designed is overweight by 1.2tons (and will become more overweight in its MK2 version), so Kaveri in its present form is not going to be serial produced.
So all these points about 10 or 100 years away from production is moot, really.

Kaveri, in its present form, should be used as a tech demo platform (after full-compliment of Flight Testing regime has been completed on a LCA TD/PV) for developing next gen military Turbofan (aka 4th Gen ones like F414 etc). This, at the minimum, will validate the CFD and mechanical design (plus on the material tech front as well - but that discussion for some other day) aspects of the 80KN class 3-gen military turbofan - a significant achievement by any technological maturity yardstick.
And there're indications on some movement towards it, like the unveiling of the SCB turbine blade, usage of blisk for the compressors, higher BPR being contemplated, newer LPC/Fan being tendered etc.

Which, of course, is a positive development. 8)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

Is it possible to use the Kaveri for say Mig29 or a single engine version of a dedicated ground attack ac like Jagwar etc or to any civilian transport ac. We have done some serious work for this project and need is to put it to use. Why not build a ac aroung proven kaveri capabilities. Navel Kaveri and kaveri based engine for Arjun ( if not killed) were talked about but we do not hear them anymore.

Regular production of indian developed high tect products like Kaveri will be very helpful for any future production activity of any home grown advaced jet engine.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by abhik »

Narayana Rao wrote:... kaveri based engine for Arjun ( if not killed) were talked about but we do not hear them anymore.
Just a nitpick, the kaveri too big (by a factor of about 10) to power any land based vehicle.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

I am sure it is guruji but I was reading about some devivatives etc in this thread only. So I have asked. I am sure of reading Naval Kaveri - Is it also now not going to be there???
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by gkriish »

Narayana Rao wrote:Is it possible to use the Kaveri for say Mig29 or a single engine version of a dedicated ground attack ac like Jagwar etc or to any civilian transport ac. We have done some serious work for this project and need is to put it to use. Why not build a ac aroung proven kaveri capabilities. Navel Kaveri and kaveri based engine for Arjun ( if not killed) were talked about but we do not hear them anymore.

Regular production of indian developed high tect products like Kaveri will be very helpful for any future production activity of any home grown advaced jet engine.

well the Kaveri engine can be used for Arjun but the weight is already 72 for Arjun MKII . Arjun MKIII or MKIV might have if the over all weight reduces and the army requires it by then .........My guess is that the way the project goes by the time Arjun MK IV comes out the Indians (Private sector) will have a completely new advanced engine which doesn't run on Fossil fuel and runs on some kinda of self sustained fuel source and a turbo charged powerful Engine, efficient & less weight by a mile compared to the current.........
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_26965 »

Kaveri marine project is on. Here is a reply to my query http://frontierindia.org/forum/f3/kaver ... ngine-628/
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_26965 »

I asked on Chat frontierindia@gmail.com
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by chetak »

abhik wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:... kaveri based engine for Arjun ( if not killed) were talked about but we do not hear them anymore.
Just a nitpick, the kaveri too big (by a factor of about 10) to power any land based vehicle.
Good idea.

Indian Railways is a possible customer.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by chetak »

Narayana Rao wrote:Is it possible to use the Kaveri for say Mig29 or a single engine version of a dedicated ground attack ac like Jagwar etc or to any civilian transport ac. We have done some serious work for this project and need is to put it to use. Why not build a ac aroung proven kaveri capabilities. Navel Kaveri and kaveri based engine for Arjun ( if not killed) were talked about but we do not hear them anymore.

Regular production of indian developed high tect products like Kaveri will be very helpful for any future production activity of any home grown advaced jet engine.
Kaveri is supposed to be the engine for a single engined fighter. This perforce mandates many critical and vital design and production capabilities that do not currently exist in the Indian technological repertoire. Engines for single engined fighters are surely a class apart and our GTRE boffins do not seem to have paid much heed to this aspect.

No amount of wishful thinking is going to overcome the blinkers worn by the powers that be.

All their thinking is of the bishma pitamah and LK Advani school of thought -- Immortality at any price and self aggrandizement. ( along with a privileged and cushy post retirement sinecure)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vasu raya »

chetak wrote:
Good idea.

Indian Railways is a possible customer.
The RDSO is fossilized, no serious R&D or initiatives based there on can be expected from them.

Anyways, other options are captive power plants, even mobile ones and at component level, multi megawatt offshore wind turbines which operate in a marine environment share some commonality with only the prime mover replaced by wind turbine instead of a gas turbine. The Indian coast line is just huge and the company that did the gearbox for IAC-1 is also exploring the alternate energy model. Offshore wind energy parks please despite the glamour of nuclear energy.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pralay »

Search Still on for Developmental Partner for Kaveri Engine
Its Confirmed now that India’s GTRE and French engine maker Snecma will not be working together in development of a New Kaveri engine for India’s 5th Generation AMCA aircraft project , as per sources Both couldn’t agree on work sharing agreement and also funding of the project .

Snecma wanted to use Core of uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter for development of New Kaveri engine (K-10) but after failed talks Now, RFP will be send to other Engine manufactures for co-development of new Kaveri engine (K-10) which will power AMCA , Sources have ruled out Kaveri Engine Powering Tejas aircraft in near future , spin-off engine of current Kaveri engine (K-9+) will be used to power India’s first Stealthy Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (USAV).

GTRE still plans to integrate Kaveri K-9+ engine with Tejas once the Engine is ready to complete its development , A older Tejas test aircraft operated by India’s Aeronautical Development Agency will be used for the integration . Since its first run in 1996 nine Kaveri engines were built. Although, due to the delays in development and insufficient thrust, Kaveri is not destined for the Tejas Indigenous Fighter Aircraft, new engine for AMCA will need to generate at least 90 KN of thrust. ”Development and flight-testing of the new engine will take at least five to six years.”
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

It was a long drawn conclusion, and we have to wait years to know snecma tech level does not suite IAF requirements for kaveri engine. How many times, we have discussed the needs here. Still, GTRE thinks somebody from the ocean will rise up to help them, let them dream on!

It is high time we engage GAG on this matter, and to know what the heck is going on in the planning stage itself for AMCA. Kaveri as is must be ported to one of the LCA TD, no matter what T:W, MTOW or dry/wet thrust achieved. We need that data, and damn it..no reports on that front at all.

GTRE needs revamp to consider doing it all by themselves. STOP begging for tech transfer. This is getting irritating for our core engine needs.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by suryag »

The next thing Dr.Chander should focus on after Tejas is Kaveri program
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by kuldipchager »

We are building new Russian engine for Mig 29 K (victor thrust) then why we don't use this engine for AMCA fighter until we have our own engine.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

Instead of calling K1,..Kn, they need TD1, ..TDn. Are they serious in getting results? This is not an engineering problem at hand. This is a blunder at funds, babooze, management, and setup.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

sameer_shelavale wrote:Search Still on for Developmental Partner for Kaveri Engine
Its Confirmed now that India’s GTRE and French engine maker Snecma will not be working together in development of a New Kaveri engine for India’s 5th Generation AMCA aircraft project , as per sources Both couldn’t agree on work sharing agreement and also funding of the project .

Snecma wanted to use Core of uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter for development of New Kaveri engine (K-10) but after failed talks Now, RFP will be send to other Engine manufactures for co-development of new Kaveri engine (K-10) which will power AMCA ...
Good Riddance, is what I'd say to this news (notwithstanding from a questionable source) ... actually should have happened much earlier, not sure what took so long!! :eek:

It's a basic requirement mismatch right from the very begining...

The poor SDREs were looking at increasing the efficiencies of Kabini (the Core of Kaveri) in the following two basic areas:
1) Turbine: Increasing the TeT from 1400deg C to 1700deg C regimes, by mastering the 3-4th Gen SCB tech - details of which can be found in this post of mine here Kaveri - Turbine Challenges

2) Compressor: Again quoting from an old post of mine here Kaveri - Compressor Challenges.
Essentially, the requirement of increasing the efficiency of compressor stages are mainly done by the following four ways:
1) Graduating to a high transonic/supersonic blade speed regime (of say 1.5-1.6M)
2) Low aspect ratio (aka wide chord) blade design and manufacturing
3) Manufacturing (mass-level) capability of multi-circular arc profile compressor blades

But to get to the above 3 factors we need the 4th factor of,
4) developing/acquiring manufacturing capability of increased blade strength and loading – by usage of blisk manufacturing, higher thermal loading metallurgy, High speed milling, Electro-Chemical machining, Linear friction welding etc. etc.
PS: Furthermore, the history of this compressor improvements vis-a-vis Kaveri/Kabini can be found in the Part - I and Part - II series.

While the Frenchies were cleverly trying to shove-down our throat an already developed M-88 Core, which would have meant zero/zilch/nada learning on technology/engineering towards a 4th Gen military Turbofan development - at best some more screw-drivergiri could have accrued.

So, good riddance ... either we spend the time/effort and get there by developing the design and manufacturing technological capabilities indigenously or may be some other foreign partner can help (which will shorten the duration, that's all). But military turbofan design/development capability building should be the ultimate goal.

PS: For the intrested, an attempt towards the overall RCA of the Kaveri program failures, from a lay-man pov, can be found in a 3-part series here: Part - I, Part - II and Part - III.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

There is no substitute for hard work and hard cash.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

And long time - especially for engines.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Philip »

Adm.Prakah's article in a paper on his current visit to China,his awe of its progress,the clean cities and civic sense of the public even in areas where lowcost hosuing exists-no garbage and debris on the streets properly paved with trees and gardens greening the communities, and his castigation of Indian political leaders -their greed and corruption and dereliction of duty,must be lauded.

In similar fashion AWST has in a recent issue featured the extensive progress that the Chinese have made with regard to aero-engine development.The list is jaw-dropping,for us at least. It has the list of previous engines manufactured and the current list and the types on which they are deployed.The Chinese have gone far beyond reverse engineering Russian engines,but thanks to their elaborate espionage network abroad and theft of industrial secrets re simply forging ahead with highly ambitious goals in trying to bridge the gap and eventually match the capability of western engine manufacturers. Apart from engine development,the numerous types of aircraft,UAV/UCAVs, and helos being designed and developed by industry is the Chinese is staggering.In fact,China's great emphasis upon building a huge independent aero-space industry which is proving to being the major force in its national industrial development.As many know,Airbus set up an entire facility which has built around 100+ A-320s in just three yeasr for the Chinese airline industry alone!

Where can India ever match this concentrated and focussed effort when we have such a corrupt and venal regime and leadership like that endured by us of the "S&S" combine?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by kshirin »

[quote="Philip"] In similar fashion AWST has in a recent issue featured the extensive progress that the Chinese have made with regard to aero-engine development.The list is jaw-dropping,for us at least. It has the list of previous engines manufactured and the current list and the types on which they are deployed.The Chinese have gone far beyond reverse engineering Russian engines,but thanks to their elaborate espionage network abroad and theft of industrial secrets re simply forging ahead with highly ambitious goals in trying to bridge the gap and eventually match the capability of western engine manufacturers. Apart from engine development,the numerous types of aircraft,UAV/UCAVs, and helos being designed and developed by industry is the Chinese is staggering.In fact,China's great emphasis upon building a huge independent aero-space industry which is proving to being the major force in its national industrial development.As many know,Airbus set up an entire facility which has built around 100+ A-320s in just three yeasr for the Chinese airline industry alone!

Where can India ever match this concentrated and focussed effort when we have such a corrupt and venal regime and leadership like that endured by us of the "S&S" combine?[/quote]


Can you please provide the link of the AWST article? Is it a premium article? The recent withdrawal of the PMA - a baby step in securing some orders for Indian telecom convinces me we really dont have the steel to pursue our own strengths. Only alternative is for some brave BR soul to join politics.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Victor »

vic wrote:There is no substitute for hard work and hard cash.
Along with the best decision makers, management and engineers available in India (or abroad who may be available for top dollar).
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

Priority should be K. It is a good show btw.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Official ?

India Drops Kaveri Engine for LCA; Will Power Future UCAV
Kaveri engine development programme is continuing and dry variant of which will power Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (IUSAV).
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by kit »

Philip wrote:Adm.Prakah's article in a paper on his current visit to China,his awe of its progress,the clean cities and civic sense of the public even in areas where lowcost hosuing exists-no garbage and debris on the streets properly paved with trees and gardens greening the communities, and his castigation of Indian political leaders -their greed and corruption and dereliction of duty,must be lauded.

In similar fashion AWST has in a recent issue featured the extensive progress that the Chinese have made with regard to aero-engine development.The list is jaw-dropping,for us at least. It has the list of previous engines manufactured and the current list and the types on which they are deployed.The Chinese have gone far beyond reverse engineering Russian engines,but thanks to their elaborate espionage network abroad and theft of industrial secrets re simply forging ahead with highly ambitious goals in trying to bridge the gap and eventually match the capability of western engine manufacturers. Apart from engine development,the numerous types of aircraft,UAV/UCAVs, and helos being designed and developed by industry is the Chinese is staggering.In fact,China's great emphasis upon building a huge independent aero-space industry which is proving to being the major force in its national industrial development.As many know,Airbus set up an entire facility which has built around 100+ A-320s in just three yeasr for the Chinese airline industry alone!

Where can India ever match this concentrated and focussed effort when we have such a corrupt and venal regime and leadership like that endured by us of the "S&S" combine?
The Economist lauds that the Indian industry has progressed despite the tremendous negative and stifling effect of the indian bureaucracy for past 3 decades ! Not much to say here.There is wealth but gross and massive mal governance in all spheres creating a massive parallel black economy and flight of capital.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

Manish_P wrote:Official ?

India Drops Kaveri Engine for LCA; Will Power Future UCAV
Kaveri engine development programme is continuing and dry variant of which will power Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (IUSAV).
Old news used for a reply in a political setting:
This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Ambeth Rajan in Rajya Sabha today.
Kaveri, IF at all, MAY raise her head in the AMCA. Need to wait for another year at least, until the FoC for the LCA.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by srin »

It actually makes sense. IIRC, Kaveri had problems with wet thrust. The dry thrust was close to the design goals. So, put that on the UAV which doesn't need afterburners unlike the LCA or AMCA, making most of what we have.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pralay »

Kaveri and Kabini will enter mass production in Feb 2014
Both the high-end 'Kaveri' and entry-level 'Kabini" APUs will enter mass production in February 2014 for an announcement in March 2014. On the Kabini front, AMD is expected to launch dual- and quad-core parts with Socket ST3 for notebooks and Socket FS1B for desktops. Kabini APUs will have a maximum power consumption of 25W, according to DigiTimes' upstream supply chain sources.

Kabini and Kaveri APUs were originally scheduled for release in the second half of 2013, although this report confirms a delay of the chips into 2014. The rescheduling of the launch will have an effect on AMD's future APUs, delaying 'Beema' (the successor to Kabini) into either the second half of 2014, or early 2015. Beema will allegedly use Socket FS1B like Kabini, although more Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) features will be implemented.
Not related Aero-engines but is AMD stealing names of our engine & core? or trying to focus on indian market?
PS:Please move it to suitable thread if required
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