Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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Cybaru
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Any news from AI13 of collaboration to further develop Kaveri for AMCA ?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

no noose is good news
Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

BREAKING NEWS :-o
GTRE's next engine (from tender to Design & Development of three stage blisk fan)
Design and development of three stage 5:1 pressure ratio all Blisk fan for 75/110 kN thrust class engine. The broad design specifications and constraints are defined as below.

Code: Select all

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|               Design specifications: ISA-SLS - P1=101.325kPa ; T1=288.16K                             |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Parameter             | Value        | Constraint                | Remark                             |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|------------------------------------|
| Mass flow rate        | 85-87 kg/s   |                           | ~5% growth potential should be     |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------| available. GTRE would like to      |
| Pressure Ratio        | 4.8-5.0      |                           | participate in the design process. | 
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------| The mode of participation will be  |
| Isentropic efficiency | 83-84%       | Minimum 83%               | deliberated later.                 |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|                                    |
| Surge margin          | ~22%         | Part speed margin should  |                                    | 
|                       |              | be more than 25%          |                                    |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|------------------------------------|
| Max inlet diameter    | As needed by | ~780 mm                   | Selection of material will dictate |         
|                       | the designer |                           | maximum rotational speed.          |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|                                    |
| Rotational speed      | As needed by | Nil                       |                                    |
|                       | the designer |                           |                                    |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time frame for the above activities up to component level aerodynamic testing, aeromechanical testing for generating performance map, structural testing relating to life and safety is approximately five years (60 months). It also includes manufacture of five sets of hardware for testing and evaluation of above tests.

SCOPE OF WORK: The scope of work includes Design of Fan, CAD/CAE Simulations & Analysis, Prototype Development, Performance & Functional Testing and Proving of the Fan. This includes certification level tests as per MIL 5007-E .Further, it also includes transfer of production technology to GTRE which is inclusive of setting up of infrastructure, training and assistance in manufacturing of blisks.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by nachiket »

three stage 5:1 pressure ratio all Blisk fan
Indranil, for the benefit of lay-abdul with no knowledge of jet engines - Is this fan a part of the engine core or is it situated outside? I'm trying to find out whether they are going to use the same core as the Kaveri for the new engine.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

nachiket wrote:
three stage 5:1 pressure ratio all Blisk fan
Indranil, for the benefit of lay-abdul with no knowledge of jet engines - Is this fan a part of the engine core or is it situated outside? I'm trying to find out whether they are going to use the same core as the Kaveri for the new engine.
I do not know a lot about engines. But these are part of 3 stage Low Pressure region. You can judge it from the pressure ratio and fan diameter.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

I am sure the EADS can win this if they price it correct and willing to work on the specs. They have been longing for a good project for a long time. last time they missed by a narrow margin. Not sure, Sncecma will participate as their M884 or whatever the best they have has not yet achieved 75/110kN, but they are quite capable partners. Why did they cancel the earlier deal? God knows,but it is a good sign.

dunno how the 3 stage blisk pressure ratio of 5:1 converts to overall pressure ratio? kaveri currently generates 6.x:1 overall. GE F110 has 5 - 8 times higher ratios.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

As I said before, that pressure ratio is only for the LP region.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by sivab »

Thanks indranilroy you made my day...
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

so sivab, could you please update on us on some garam chaiwala news? I am sure you have something to say.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

Cross Posting
shiv wrote:No Philip. A per what I hear from your namesake AM Rajkumar, the Kaveri is working fine. There is a working engine there. The basic tech is sorted out. It needs some refinement and improvement. If I search I find many examples of engines developed in the 60s that now serve as the basis for modern fighter and civilian engines.
There are quite a few information that’s getting scattered across various threads and needs consolidation in one place in this thread (for archival and ready reference).

First thing first, Shivji messed up :cry: his invaluable uploads from AI13 on Kaveri by moving the infoboards and images.
They need to be linked from here – so here they are (credit and copyright completely goes to Shivji and Shivji alone).

Image
Image
Image

In a lay-man terms what does these images signify vis-à-vis GTREs Kaveri/Kabini development project. Well, from a 60K ft level, these images are the 1st proof of Single Crystal Blade manufacturing (or should I just leave it at development only) in India.
But at a slightly lower level, we still need to understand, of course purely from a lay-man’s pov, why is this SCB dev/design capability so important for us (from any indigenous military jet engine dev capability pov) - and, more importantly, where do we stand today (from open source info only) in achieving this capability.

So the remainder of this post is an attempt (must admit a bit audacious one) to detail this aspect from a purely lay-man pov.
So here goes:

First the problem stmt:
A typical turbine blade (a HPT blade to be precise) in a turbo-fan would be rotating at a 10K rpm in a 1600deg C (say) temperature operating environment – which would mean the tip is moving at approx 1200kmph.
So for a blade of say 10cm long and a radius of 0.5m, would mean 160MPA of pressure on the blade.
The fan-blade material (in the HP and LP Turbines) would thus need to be able to handle that kind of physical stress along with a 1600deg C thermal stress in order to extract work from the gas stream and convert into to mechanical energy in the form of a rotating shaft to turn the upstream compressors and fans. Plus they need to also have adequate oxidation resistance and hot corrosion resistance at those operating temperature.
A very tall order.

Blade Metallurgy Fundamentals:
The blade metallurgy comes into picture there-in – pls refer to the images posted by Shivji from AI13.

In the Equiaxed (aka traditional) blade, the grain boundaries are on both axis, longitudinal and transverse (aka both length and across), so under thermal and mechanical stress, creep propagation can happen in any direction - but mostly the failures happen radially, the traditional weak link in the microstructure.

With Directionally Solidified (DS) the transverse grain boundaries are removed and columnar microstructures are formed -basically by carefully controlling the temperature gradient, a planar solidification front (across the cross-section of the foil) is first formed and then the whole blade is solidified by moving this planar front longitudinally across the length.
This results in multiple oriented grain structures running parallel to the major axis (aka parallel to the length of the blade) with no transverse (aka cross) grain boundaries. But these long grain boundaries being weak, it requires addition of Boron and Carbon (and hafnium and zirconium) impurities to be added to make them sufficiently strong against creep propagation.
This alignment of grain boundaries longitudinally (length-wise) confers substantial increase in creep life. DS provides as much as 10times more strain control or thermal fatigue compared to Equiaxed blades - plus the impact strength is also more (approx 33%) compared to Equiaxed blades.
<<Insert Image from hdd>>
This schematic shows the DS and Single Crystalline (SC) casting process - In each case, molten super-alloy is poured into a ceramic mold seated on a water cooled copper chill. And grains are nucleated on the chill surface and are grown in a columnar manner parallel to the unidirectional temperature gradient – this is achieved by slowly moving the mold away from the furnace.

Pls notice that, SC blade creation process is almost identical to that of DS process but with one very important difference - that of the presence of grain selector (that helical structure at the bottom, kind of a filter which allows only 1 columnar microstructure to propagate longitudinally across the blade length).
As solidification proceeds, two to six grains enter the helix, (or grain selector) - some grains are physically blocked from entering the helix and the one or few that survive, have their horizontal dendrites most favorably positioned to enter the helix. After one or two turns of the helix only one crystal survives - this one grain emerges from the top of the selector, and this grain fills the entire mold cavity.

The helix wire diameter typically varies from 0.3 to 0.5 cm (0.1 to 0.2 inch).The single crystal production process uses the same vacuum furnaces as for columnar-grain castings (aka DS castings), but the temperature gradients in the furnaces have been increased significantly from about 36 to 72 deg C/cm.

Just to underline the importance of various blade metallurgy technologies, a 25 deg C improvement in metal temperature capability corresponds to a three-fold improvement in blade-life.

The SC myth:
But, the SCB all by itself is not the be all for achieving high TeT – in fact the 1st gen SCBs falls short of last-gen DS of approx. 1450deg C TeT by about 100deg C.
In fact the initial SC work on SC version of the MAR-M200 was abandoned in mid-60s as it was found to provide no additional benefit over DS version of it. It’s only in the late 70s it caught on again when they could overshadow DS blades by removing the artificially added grain-boundary strengthening elements. Also in fact the DS version of MAR-M200 provided very high levels of creep and thermal fatigue strength and the SC versions didn’t really improve too much on these two parameters (it did marginally though) – what the SC version did was to improve on all four vital parameters viz. oxidation resistance and hot-corrosion resistance in addition to creep and thermal fatigue strengths.

Various SC Gens:
1st Gen SCBs: The above SCB research lead to what is known as the 1st Gen SC technology – characterized by not so much of an increase in creep and thermal fatigue strengths over the last versions of DS blades (of late 80s) but improvement in all 4 parameters (oxidation resistance, hot-corrosion resistance, creep and thermal fatigue strengths).
So in lay-man pov having 1st Gen SC blades will not help much in achieving a quantum jump beyond 1450deg C range TeTs.

2nd and 3rd Gen SCBs:
This is where open-source information starts becoming scanty – but these are characterized by degree of Rhenium (one of the rarest elements with third-highest melting point and highest boiling point) mixture in the alloy itself with 2nd Gen (CMSX-4) amounting to 3% (w/w) and for 3rd Gen (CMSX-10) to approx. >6% or so.

However, extrapolating the SCB gen and TeT in engine-development world of the advanced western countries, it can be safely assumed that 3rd Gen SCB is required for >1600deg C TeT (approx 80-100deg C jump for each gen of SCBs).

Current Status - Kabini blades:
Now where do we stand as far as the DS and SCB technology is concerned:
What we already knew was that the investment forging for DS blades are in place and the current Kaveri core (Kabini) achieves the dry (100%) and wet thrust (approx 75%) using them.
In concrete terms it means a TeT of 1476deg C with an OPR of 20-22. The compressor SPR is around 1.6 whilst the aim should have been more than 2 – what needs to be achieved is approx 27 OPR and 1600deg C TeT.

That would require developing,
1) SCB for HPT - the above picture (from Shivji in AI13) is not a definitive proof as we don't know the SCB gen it belongs to.
Pls note that 3rd Gen SCBs are required for that level of TeT – and if the displayed SCB is from 1st Gen, it’s of very little use as the achieved TeT would be lower than what the DS blades in Kabini is achieving currently.

2) The OPR increase in Kabini will necessitate some level of SCB for the later/last stages of the HP Compressors as well.
The current Ti based alloys for the compressors, though enough for the temperatures to be handled at the 1st few stages (of the HPC) will not suffice for the later/last stages (Ti oxidation resistance beyond 700deg C is very poor), if the OPR is go towards 27 or more. And to again maintain the weight of these later stages of the compressors, compressor-level blisk manufacturing needs to be developed as well.
3) TBC for the HPTs - no info on it from the AI13.

Next will be another lay-man's attempt :P to look at OPR shrotfall impact on Kaveri. :((

Ref:
http://www.tms.org/superalloys/10.7449/ ... 05_214.pdf
The Superalloys: Fundamentals and Applications By Roger C. Reed
Last edited by maitya on 14 Feb 2013 17:06, edited 1 time in total.
Lilo
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Lilo »

Thanks Maitya ji
cleared up a lot of stuff for this noob to jet engines
maitya
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

indranilroy wrote:
nachiket wrote:three stage 5:1 pressure ratio all Blisk fan
Indranil, for the benefit of lay-abdul with no knowledge of jet engines - Is this fan a part of the engine core or is it situated outside? I'm trying to find out whether they are going to use the same core as the Kaveri for the new engine.
I do not know a lot about engines. But these are part of 3 stage Low Pressure region. You can judge it from the pressure ratio and fan diameter.
Fan and the Low Pressure Compressor stages - blisk is to ensure weight reduction.

But I think the good news is the thrust level (75-110KN) of engine for which this is being sought for!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

Thanks Maitya.

just posting some info about the next step in Aero Engines. Blisks

Here is an image of a Rolls Royce made Blisk for F-35
Image

I have also learned a new word - Linfric - linear friction welding - used for a blisk in this page
http://www.linfric.com/appli.htm

More info about Blisks
http://www.qmtmag.com/display_eds.cfm?edno=2931863
Blisks – short for Blade Integrated Disks – are rotor blades for aircraft engines. They are manufactured in one piece instead of being assembled from several pieces as with older technologies.
Image: http://www.theodoregray.com/periodictab ... 8/s15s.JPG
Image caption:
This is a fabulously beautiful cast titanium jet engine part. It's titanium rather than nickel super-alloy like the turbine blades I have under nickel because it is part of the intake system, not the combustion or exhaust systems. So it's subject only to incredibly high stresses, not ridiculously incredibly high stresses like the post-combustion parts of the engine.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

Lots and lots and lots of small private companies in the west making blisks. Who will do it in India?

Click for link
Turbine blades are a classic application for 5 axis simultaneous machining, combining collision free tilted tool plane roughing tool paths using large end mills with multi-surface 5-Axis finishing.

Finishing can be carried out using either a ballnose cutter or large diameter bull nose end mill with the tool tilting to the rotational axis with a defined angle to optimise cutting conditions on the blade surface and avoid holder collisions. Optimum surface finish is obtained by utilising a spiral toolpath to avoid marking resulting from the tool stepover.
Image
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

my guess is titan industries is a potential candidate....bharat forge could be another..they need to be given money and freedom to source skills and tech from wherever in the world needed

http://www.titan.co.in/business-divisio ... g-division
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:my guess is titan industries is a potential candidate....bharat forge could be another..they need to be given money and freedom to source skills and tech from wherever in the world needed

http://www.titan.co.in/business-divisio ... g-division
Also possible Lakshmi Machine works Coimbatore
http://www.lakshmimach.com/atc/products ... #precision
Aero engine components – Casings, Blisks, shafts, housings, stators, NGV, Pump housing Bushing, Sleeves and sub-assy
Image

I had earlier posted an image from their Aero India stall
Image
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by merlin »

Cool, lots of good into in one place.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

Maini precision in blr already makes aerospace parts albeit not turbine blades or hot section ones probably.

the swedish co sandvik and probably many other euro cos like "chiron" are present in india with local ops and can supply many precision tools . japanese giants like toshiba must be around somewhere.

SKF is another co with a big facility in blr.

our civilian side has reached sufficient mass now to alleviate the pain and help out in many areas, it doesnt have to be a lonely toil for Govt agencies alone. and many foreign govts would be happy to play ball seeing their national champions getting fed some good meat.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Kanson »

shiv wrote:I had earlier posted an image from their Aero India stall
Image
Any info could be added for this pic?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Kanson »

maitya wrote: .............
Various SC Gens:
..............
I guess it is a nice intro. Thanks!
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by negi »

I see planetary gears inside that thing . How much does it cost ? Will be cool to get my hands on one such thing . :twisted:
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by sivab »

The interesting thing about 110kN wet and 75kN dry is that their ratio is very close what was achieved with current engine during flight tests in Russia (70kN/50kN). So the new one is a realistic scaled up version of current engine with current tech. Any advances in material tech and/or compression ratio will make it smaller/lighter than simply scaled engine or give improved performance or some combination of both.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

maitya wrote: Various SC Gens:
Thank you for this wonderful post. Actually a couple of years back I was speaking to a guy pursuing his Ph.D. in Material Science and engineering. He had done some internships at HAL and GTRE, most probably around the 2005-2007 time frame. He had explained this to me about the generation of SCBs. He said that our SCB technology is generation behind the top players. I don't know if that has changed, now.

It is another thing that he said he will never work for GTRE and HAL.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Kanson wrote:
shiv wrote:I had earlier posted an image from their Aero India stall
Image
Any info could be added for this pic?
its a very compact reduction (RPM) unit that could be coupled directly on servo motor shaft. it could as well be for tachogenerator


THIS

Image


VERSUS THIS

Image
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

thalia sivab. fantastic observation, which alone will give an indicator of various things happening.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Sandvik is into cutting tools single point na d multi point, actually these days multi point are constructed out of single point inserts much like turbine blades.

SKF is mostly into bearings, Toshiba, Deckel (germany) and other could be tapped for SPMs which are absolutely (yes good ol favorite CNC ) must ofr machining , heat treating and transfer lines for blade manufacture...
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

sivab wrote:The interesting thing about 110kN wet and 75kN dry is that their ratio is very close what was achieved with current engine during flight tests in Russia (70kN/50kN). So the new one is a realistic scaled up version of current engine with current tech. Any advances in material tech and/or compression ratio will make it smaller/lighter than simply scaled engine or give improved performance or some combination of both.
Yes it will ... but the current engines underperforming A/B (aka wet) thrust is got to do with poor engineering and design choices. The low BPR (from a turbojet legacy) ensures a fast moving gas-mass thru the core than it should have been. I suspect, this also gets carried thru to the A/B stage where the mas-flow-velocity is much higher than what it should have been (say, compared to a contemporary western engine).

And extracting meaningful work (aka thrust) from a faster moving mass will always be sub-optimal - in an ideal world, max work can be extracted by adding fuel and heat (and thus expanding) a stationary mass-flow, but that obviously that gets compromised in a real world. Thus the only way a certain thrust level can be achieved, in such a scenario, is by dumping more fuel (in an already most in-efficient part of a turbofan engine) to compensate for this additional mass-flow velocity etc - but then that also has it's own limit (non-linear relationship between thrust level and fuel-mass injected).

So the focus should have been (and I'm sure, GTRE folks are already concentrating towards it) is to attain the designed wet thrust level (of 80-82KN) in the current configuration itself :| (will certainly require some addn amount of TeT and OPR increase than the current levels), than to try and just scale it up (and adding weight and increasing dimensional constraints of the recipient airframe). :-o

More when I get to write (from strictly lay-man pov) on the OPR enigma of the kabini/kaveri. :P
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

Kanson wrote:
shiv wrote:I had earlier posted an image from their Aero India stall
Image
Any info could be added for this pic?
Sorry. I did not even understand what the man called it although I wanted one to play with it.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by sivab »

maitya wrote: So the focus should have been (and I'm sure, GTRE folks are already concentrating towards it) is to attain the designed wet thrust level (of 80-82KN) in the current configuration itself :| (will certainly require some addn amount of TeT and OPR increase than the current levels), than to try and just scale it up (and adding weight and increasing dimensional constraints of the recipient airframe). :-o

More when I get to write (from strictly lay-man pov) on the OPR enigma of the kabini/kaveri. :P
I don't disagree with you in general, but... Wet thrust has limited uses. Most of the time a fighter aircraft is in dry thrust regime. So I think they should first focus on getting 75kN dry thrust at lowest weight/dimensions possible and then worry about getting better wet thrust than 110kN.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

well materialistically, if it can take the compression pressure & TET to 110kN then, TAS requirements could be achieved right? we need to take off at the required spec level first.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Anujan »

Wonder what n^3 is up to these days. He is the one who named the afterburner as "musharraf tandoor"
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by nachiket »

Anujan wrote:Wonder what n^3 is up to these days. He is the one who named the afterburner as "musharraf tandoor"
His and vina's Kaveri discussion in halal pingrezi is legendary. It's unfortunate that he doesn't post here anymore.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

without good wet thrust its not a deployable product - takeoffs at full load and moving from patrol speed to missile launch speed both involve afterburner it is said.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by RoyG »

nachiket wrote:
Anujan wrote:Wonder what n^3 is up to these days. He is the one who named the afterburner as "musharraf tandoor"
His and vina's Kaveri discussion in halal pingrezi is legendary. It's unfortunate that he doesn't post here anymore.
Why did he stop posting?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The N^3 Pingrerzi exposition was indeed legendary.

IIRC, he stopped posting after the TN Bum sizzle vs fizzle debate on BRF. That's when we lost Arun_S as well. We lost some good people over heated internet debates....
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

Prem Kumar wrote:The N^3 Pingrerzi exposition was indeed legendary.

IIRC, he stopped posting after the TN Bum sizzle vs fizzle debate on BRF. That's when we lost Arun_S as well. We lost some good people over heated internet debates....
Yes it was legendary and for lesser mortals like moi, this kindergartner's each word of each sentence needed reading and thinking thru atleast 5 times to understand the direction he's pointing to - such was the impact. :-o

But Prem Kumarji, as I've said before, let the sleeping dogs lie - suffice to say, it's bad karma to get entangled into various planetary and celestial stuff (and not exactly the sizzle vs fizzle debate) that took this toll. :wink:
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

what is important is the outcome, and the process that leads the outcome, which requires valid inputs.
data collection on kaveri is vital for it to proceed further. we are totally hidden on the progress and badly hampered by bad reporting by the media. i hope, we have special interest group for critical technology to ensure these projects remain successful throughout.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by hanumadu »

Are the blisks machined out of a single crystal block of metal?

Youtube video of blisk machining


A couple of CNC machines used to machine blisks

http://www.starragheckert.com/sh/index. ... en/stc-800
http://www.breton.it/machinetool/pt/pro ... EEDER~1051

It seems like we need high speed 5 axes CNCs to manufacture blisks.
Last edited by hanumadu on 16 Feb 2013 01:26, edited 2 times in total.
Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

I can't imagine my reaction if one day I see a N^3 or Arun_S post. I will really do a Ganguly-style t-shirt twirl.
Will
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Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Will »

indranilroy wrote:
maitya wrote: Various SC Gens:
Thank you for this wonderful post. Actually a couple of years back I was speaking to a guy pursuing his Ph.D. in Material Science and engineering. He had done some internships at HAL and GTRE, most probably around the 2005-2007 time frame. He had explained this to me about the generation of SCBs. He said that our SCB technology is generation behind the top players. I don't know if that has changed, now.

It is another thing that he said he will never work for GTRE and HAL.

Just goes to show why PSU's wont attract top brains on a regular basis. If the govt allows in private players and nutures them to an extent of even 25% of what they do with the PSU blackholes, one will see wonders in a decades time, where the Indian defence industry is concerned. Only private players have the leeway to attract the best brains from around the globe and retain them with salaries and perks and a competative work culture.
If not we will be stuck with DRDO and HAL sticking labels like they did on the Identification Friend or Foe system that was developed by Cassidian and calling it their own development. At least Cassidian has setup a local unit and hopefully used a lot of Indian brains in that development. That is the way to build up local expertise. Give them a challenging environment with good pay packets. PSU's cant match that with a 9 to 5 culture.
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