RM,

While that is true, I recall that many laughed at the idea of a MKI.

BTW, going back to the topic of thsi thread: If u have some time to kill + pinch of salt

austin that was the LFI istribityel 2000 wasn't it ?

a bit of game !
is this a canceled 5gen project ? what do the 5gen experts think ?
I assure you guys it's russian and real, no PSed job !

Oh i just forgot that the Mig 5th gen proposal (LFI 2000 ) which lost out to Sukhoi PAK-FA was heavily based on the Soviet 5th Gen Mig-1.42 , so its possible they looks pretty similar.

jaeger, plz check PM.

India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

15:03 | 29/ 09/ 2008

NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday.

A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

"The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi.

He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said.

Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007.

Earlier there was talk that even engines would be India specific, this seems to have been dropped. Another thing missing is that India will contribute on fabrication of "composite" parts. I think what is going to happen is that Russia will make 100% indigenous PAKFA for itself. Indian PAKFA will have 75% Russian components. Even before Indian PAKFA flies, technology will be transferred to China and Pakistan

And, 2015 is for RU PAK-FA, certainly not for the Indian one

Didnt the Indian ACM also say 2015 in a recent interview?

Sukhoi Su-35 A ‘Transfer Model’ To Russian 5th Generation Fighter

With the development of a fifth-generation fighter remaining a "top priority," Russia’s Sukhoi Co. in July described its gap-filler Su-35 multi-role fighter, which first flew Feb. 19.

Fitted with a glass cockpit, information management system and advanced, multi-mode phased array radar, the Su-27 Flanker derivative is being readied for both the Russian air force and the export market. Addressing a Farnborough Airshow press briefing July 14, Mikhail A. Pogosyan, Sukhoi Holding director general, said Sukhoi sees a potential world market for 200 Su-35s. Candidate countries are seen in South America, southeast Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

The "4++" generation aircraft, slated for serial production in 2011, will serve as the "transfer model" to a fifth-generation fighter, said Pogosyan, speaking through a translator. The latter, PAK-FA, program is expected to be a 7- to 10-year effort that is a "top priority [and] on schedule," he said. Pogosyan was quoted in airshow press reports as saying a T-50 prototype would fly late next year, with production beginning in 2015.

The first prototype of the Su-35 was demonstrated July 7 at the M.M. Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky, outside Moscow, to Russian Ministry of Defense and air force officials as well as foreign diplomats and journalists, Sukhoi said. But the aircraft was not available for the trip to Farnborough, which instead was treated to a dramatic flight display of Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.

Two more Su-35 prototypes were being assembled by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) and were expected to be rolled out this year. A fourth prototype is planned as a production standard aircraft. The fighter is powered by "substantially modified" AL-31F engines with increased thrust and a vectored thrust nozzle.

At the core of the Su-35 avionics is an information management system that integrates "functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex," Sukhoi said. The aircraft is fitted with an Irbis-E X-band, multi-role radar with a passive, phased antenna array mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit, in azimuth and roll. The Irbis-E radar, developed by the Tikhomirov Scientific-Research Institute of Instrument Design (NIIP), detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, engaging up to eight. The radar detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, Sukhoi said.

The Su-35 and Superjet 100 regional airliner are key projects as Sukhoi transitions from a primarily military aircraft manufacturer to a more diversified company, Pogosyan said. The Superjet first flew May 19, and type certification to Western standards is expected in mid-2009. Sukhoi and partner Alenia Aeronautica announced orders for 25 Superjet 100s at Farnborough — the first to European customers outside Russia — bringing total orders to 122.

"We are changing the perception of the company in the world’s eyes," Pogosyan said. "...If you want to be a global player, you can’t concentrate solely on the military." – Bill Carey

‘‘The FGFA should fly for the first time by 2015 or so. If it manages to do so earlier, then it will be a big achievement. Negotiations with Russia are making good progress, with the details being worked out,’’ IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told TOI on Thursday

The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

Mig-21 - Bison will be in service till 2025. 125 in active service

Mig-27 - Being upgraded. Will be in service till 2025. 130 in active service.

Jaguar - 65 early aircraft being upgraded to Darin III standard. 130 in active service. Will remain active with IAF till 2020-2025

Mig-29 - Being upgraded. Will remain active till 2025. ~65 in active service

Mirage 2000 - To be upgraded. ~50 in active service. Will remain active till 2025-2030

With close to 500 aircrafts scheduled to be retired by 2025. India better have some kick ass plans to replace them with next gen fighters

The primary differences - design changes because of India wanting twin-seat configuration, and also larger combat radius.

Now - the Russian version of PAK-FA in single-seater configuration T-50 is to begin test flight next year. With design changes being brought about for the Indian PAK-FA - what would be a reasonable start time for flight testing that configuration - 2012?

IMO 2015 for entering squadron service may not be impossible. But if they are promising 2015, I am inclined to be a skeptic and estimate it will be more like 2016-17. The induction rate is highly unlikely to exceed 12-15 a/c per year. And if the investment of $5B is to be amortized, a purchase of >200 will need made.

The most curious element is that the FGFA will replace at least three classes of aircraft in IAF
Are they talking three classes? or are they talking three types?

A request for BR members - can we come up likely retirement schedule of IAF aircrafts?

Thanks for the updates.

I believe retirements begin 3-4 years before the due retirement date. Staggered induction and staggered retirement. Problem with IAF is that if begins staggered retirement from farthest out date when the planes start falling out of the sky.

Mig-21s -- I thought we needed to replace a total of 400+ Mig-21 -- many of which are retired but not replaced.

Russia brings big deal

Defence sources said the FGFA would have “high-stealth capability, engage multiple targets, and embedded weapons.” Sources said its engines would be 20 per cent more efficient than Sukhois. On Monday, India and Russia also agreed to extend the Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technology’s tenure by another 10 years. An apex committee was also formed “to iron out problems (for) projects for acquisition.”

http://www.deccan.com/Nation/NationalNews.asp?#Russia%20brings%20big%20deal

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 29, 2008

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to mediapersons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.
PAK-FA 'T-50'

The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.
Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

engines are however modified in stealth oriented a/c to reduce their IR signature which is different from RCS.