Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

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Yagnasri
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yagnasri »

Veri true sir. Further Muslims have under islam to take sex slaves and wifes from killed enimies. Mohamad himself did such thing. But as of as Jhoda goes, to my knowledge there is no one by that name. As for as I know there is no Hindu wife of Akbur with name Joda (who mothered Salim). Mogali Azam movie or Jhoda Akbur movies does not make history. The entire movie and culture of Hindi movies is glorification of paki ideas. Is it not surprising that there is no movie about Chathrapathi Shivaji with any main heros acting. No movie on Maharana Pratap. Baji Rao Peshwa or any Indic legends. No movie about Rani of Jhansi or other freedom fighter. Hell they have not made a reasonable movie till date on Mahathma Gadhi other than Hai Ram (insulting hindus) and on Gandhis elder son converted into Islam)

No one talk about Shajahan's incest and that of Jehangir. They do not talk how females of Mugals were kept unmarried so that son in laws will not have any claim of any kind. What we can say.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Narayana Rao wrote:Veri true sir. Further Muslims have under islam to take sex slaves and wifes from killed enimies. Mohamad himself did such thing. But as of as Jhoda goes, to my knowledge there is no one by that name. As for as I know there is no Hindu wife of Akbur with name Joda (who mothered Salim). Mogali Azam movie or Jhoda Akbur movies does not make history. The entire movie and culture of Hindi movies is glorification of paki ideas. Is it not surprising that there is no movie about Chathrapathi Shivaji with any main heros acting. No movie on Maharana Pratap. Baji Rao Peshwa or any Indic legends. No movie about Rani of Jhansi or other freedom fighter. Hell they have not made a reasonable movie till date on Mahathma Gadhi other than Hai Ram (insulting hindus) and on Gandhis elder son converted into Islam)

No one talk about Shajahan's incest and that of Jehangir. They do not talk how females of Mugals were kept unmarried so that son in laws will not have any claim of any kind. What we can say.
Narayana ji,
Till 90s it was still possible to make such movies But now the minority politics and fear of muslim vigilante running amock will 'miao' any write-producer from taking that path. Putting all that aside, who wants to upset the Congie Government by showing the truth in a movie?

As far as Jodha goes. A marriage between a Rajput princess and Akbar is history, not fiction. There will be eternal debates on :
1) whether it was Jodha only or someone else.
2) whether it was Jodha but with some other name.
3) the name was Jodha but it was someone else and not the princess.
Orthodoxy was prevalant in and around Mughal court even at the time. Both sides might have wanted to conceal certain aspects of what really happened.
Both the Jaipur and Jodhpur royal families have recently acknowledged (in different tones) that Jodha did exist and that a marriage did take place. Though it cannot be corroborated until the families open their records of history for the historians to scrutinize.

According to Satish Chandra (historian) and Rajput orthodoxy:
1) Jodha was the daughter of Mota Raja of Jodhpur and daughter-in-law of Akbar.
2) Being from Jodhpur state, she was named Jodha (not the original name of hers obviously). She was three years younger to Salim.
3) In Amber, Bharmal's daughter was Karkbai aka Heera Kanwar and not Jodha.

In his memoir Jahangir himself mentions his mother only once though mentions his father's wives at many ocassions. It is curious that he hasn't writte nthe name of his mother even once in his memoir. Perhaps she was not a noble?
"When my mother came near the time of her delivery, he (Akbar) sent her to the Shaikh’s house that I might be born there.”
He further states :
“I made Raja Mān Singh— who was one of the greatest and most trusted noble men of my father, and had obtained alliances with this illustrious family, inasmuch as his aunt had been in my father’s house (i.e. was his wife), and I had married his sister, and Khusrau and his sister Sultānu-n-nisā Begam, the latter of whom is my eldest child, were born of her."

Records indicate the Jaipur and Jodhpur, two houses had these marriages and thus the confusion.
It seems that Bharmal's daughter was married to Akbar, but neither she nor the real Jodha (Jodhpur house) was the mother of Jahangir.

Ramana,
I know of this obsession of the invaders. As Rajputs lived inspiring lives by a code and stood against the invaders, they were considered as worthy opponents by the latter's bloated ego. Hence the obsession, because class complex existed in muslims too.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

peter wrote:This seems very odd. Why would'nt the defeated Maratha soldiers just return back to their home towns? Why stay back in Haryana?
May be not in Rods, but I just encountered a real case. Cross posting below from my communication at another forum.
peter wrote:But why not return home after they were healed? Doesnt add up.
Look at this:
RP Singh
Medieval pride and honour. Didn't want to show their defeated faces? This is what they told me :
Many of them stayed put in Haryana and many migrated to hills and to MP & Rajasthan but they never went back to Maharastra to show their defeated faces. My mother was a Dikshit from one such Maratha brahmin family. They settled down in sadpura village close to teegaon in haryana. You might be aware that Peshwas were Brahmins
peter
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Virendra wrote:
peter wrote:This seems very odd. Why would'nt the defeated Maratha soldiers just return back to their home towns? Why stay back in Haryana?
May be not in Rods, but I just encountered a real case. Cross posting below from my communication at another forum.
Please look at these fellows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajmer_Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balwant_Singh_Sagwal

These do not seem like typical Maharashtrians who are relatively short and sturdy.
peter wrote:But why not return home after they were healed? Doesnt add up.
Look at this:
RP Singh
Virendra wrote:Medieval pride and honour. Didn't want to show their defeated faces? This is what they told me :
Many of them stayed put in Haryana and many migrated to hills and to MP & Rajasthan but they never went back to Maharastra to show their defeated faces. My mother was a Dikshit from one such Maratha brahmin family. They settled down in sadpura village close to teegaon in haryana. You might be aware that Peshwas were Brahmins
Very interesting. But was it the case that she being a woman was left behind?
Lalmohan
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Lalmohan »

the staying behind happened after panipat III, which was in late eighteenth century. i doubt his mother was that old :)
Atri
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

The entire narrative of PoW do not apply for Rods.. It perhaps applies to Maree tribe of Baluchistan, but not Rods of Haryana. As I have said in my posts and elsewhere, Panipat-3 is over-publicized. Abdali handed over Delhi and regions to the east of Sutlaj to Marathas in Feb 1761 and left hastily because Peshwa had reached Gwalior with army of 50,000.

Most of the recent research shows that not more than 15,000-20,000 soldiers died in Panipat. It was Ibrahim khan who's contingent was completely cut down (around 8000 men). Next was Peshwa who's personal bodyguard was slain (around 3000 + some of the other generals fighting under Peshwa's banner (Vinchurkar, Gaikwad, Pawar, etc). Men of inner circles of Holkar and Shinde contingent were found around the body of Sadashivrao Bhau. The entire armies of Holkar and most of the men of Shindes staged a successful retreat along with many of their women and treasure. This itself amounts to around 30000 men. Many Maratha women were saved by jats and Sikhs. Bulk of the killings happened of the ordinary pilgrims who had accompanied the army to Kurukshetra for Solar eclipse of November 1760.

It was great loss for Peshwa family in particular and Shinde Family. But numerically, the actual loss of soldiers was not as drastic as it is made out to be. Perhaps, seeing the loss of Peshwa's cavalry and Vishwasrao, Bhau was planning a cross maneuver to join the ranks of Holkar-Shindes. In most of the probability, the final charge of Bhau was to create a diversion so that bulk of the Maratha army and elite women and treasury can escape to Holkar-Shinde-Jat controlled territories. The Najib-holkar pact was well known to everyone and Najib allowed a safe passage to all who were under Holkar banner from the right flank of army. It was the left and center-left who were completely decimated. That is artillery, Gardi and Peshwa's few thousand (including Peshwa family members themselves).

Point being, Marathas had went north to stay for good. All the territories of Rajputana and up to Gwalior and regions to the south of Yamuna were under their hands. There are series of forts manned by Shinde forces in Bundelkhand and entire Vindhya range overlooking the great plains of Ganga-vallley. This is about 30-40 kilometers from Agra (a day's ride for cavalry based Maratha army). Point being, they had delhi and regions east of sutlaj withing a month after Panipat, so practically nothing changed (apart from loss of leadership which hit them 45 years later in second anglo-Maratha wars).

The more I read about Panipat, more I am confused.

Marathas have been in Indo-Gangetic plains since 1715. There have been frequent raids in Haryana-UP-Bihar region by Marathas which became yearly since 1737. Their armies were permanently stationed in far off regions like Attock-Peshawar, the lands east of sutlaj were not unknown to them. It is impossible for me to imagine that they did not already know all the river-crossings, fords and the Yamuna flooding patterns. Najib's and Shuja's territories were raided yearly by Shindes (today's western UP in the doab). So, it is really flabbergasting as to why Bhau lingered in Panipat for 3 months. Even the day of battle, the maneuver was not designed for battle. It was designed for reaching the Yamuna river.

Furthermore, the point which Bhau was intending to intersect Yamuna was not a ford OR a rivercrossing. So in all probability, he wanted to move the camp (perhaps due to the dead-bodies and stench which was infesting that land due to 3 month long siege. I really do not think, they were in hurry to let the Afghan go away to Northwest. Summer was approaching and so was Peshwa. The entire army of Abdali would was heading for a difficult position of being trapped between Maratha armies from south and Bhau's army. Marathas always avoided direct warfare with entrenched enemies. They hated fighting against artillery and preferred isolating the muslim artillery (later British in first anglo-maratha war and even many battles of second anglo-maratha war) from their rest of the contingents and then finish off the contingents individually. All the battles from Shvaji to Bajirao-1 to Raghoba's defeat of Abdali at Lahore and Attock was based on this. In Attock, they let Pathans remove their artillery to the other shore of Sindhu and then attacked the Pathan base in the night. Same happened in Peshawar. The whole campaign of Palkhed was maneuvered to save the light cavalry of Marathas having to engage against Nizam artillery and musketeers.

Pikemen were not a problem for Marathas due to their unique charge formation of cavalry with around 20-25 feet long spears tied to 30-40 feet long rope which was died to their waist. The charging cavalry would release the spears in unison while riding and then using the rope pull the spear back to throw it again. When done by a dense wedge of 2000-3000 horsemen, the spears were difficult to avoid. Practically the 30-feet zone in front of charging cavalry column would be enemy-less (at least not standing).

Something went wrong and what was expected to be a skirmish turned into a full-scale mobilization.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ranjbe »

peter wrote: These do not seem like typical Maharashtrians who are relatively short and sturdy.
Very poor steorotyping. There are around 90 million plus Marathis and I can assure you that there are enough amongst us who are not short and sturdy. Both my elder brother and I are 6 feet tall, as are a few cousins and also some of our sons. Some of us are sturdy, some are not! :D
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Great post Atri ji,
Probably some 'bakhar' containing Maratha correspondence that flew in those days, would shed light on why Bhau did what he did. When the battlefield doesn't give enough answers, the letters between officers might.
Have you tried with 'Bhausahebanchi Bakhar' ?
Last edited by Virendra on 16 Sep 2013 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

peter wrote:Very interesting. But was it the case that she being a woman was left behind?
When Marathas had a tradition of taking their women alongside to a battlefield, I think they would be steadfast and determined in protecting their women at all cost. Else the practice itself wouldn't have come into existence.
If these Marathas were going back home, they obviously chose a safe time, when conditions were favorable to travel.
I don't see why they would leave their women then, when they didn't in the most dire conditions.
In fact, them returning with women would instill more confidence back home, that things were not so bad after all as a lot of people made it back safe and sound.
Atri
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Before and after Panipat, Marathas never traveled with women. In fact in shivaji's time, soldier or general was sentences to death for possessing a women or entertaining an escort jn army when on campaign. There were instances when pilgrims et al would accompany the regular armies but they were on their own.

Virendra ji, bhausahebanchi kaifiyat is an ballard of Bhau. These people were not given access to process of policy making decisions. So while it is very good source to know bhau personally, not a good resource for knowing the order of battle of marathas.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Murugan »

Especially Marathas of Konkan - average height is 6 feet. And they are sturdy too.
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

Atri wrote:Before and after Panipat, Marathas never traveled with women. In fact in shivaji's time, soldier or general was sentences to death for possessing a women or entertaining an escort jn army when on campaign. There were instances when pilgrims et al would accompany the regular armies but they were on their own.

Virendra ji, bhausahebanchi kaifiyat is an ballard of Bhau. These people were not given access to process of policy making decisions. So while it is very good source to know bhau personally, not a good resource for knowing the order of battle of marathas.
Then there must be a record of official letters .. some archives of sorts would have them.
Like in Rajasthan we have Jaipur archives, Bikaner archives (from which Gautier derived info for that explosive Aurangzeb exhibition etc).
Sadly I live in NCR now and could visit the City Palace library (far front end of archives) only once.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Atri wrote:The entire narrative of PoW do not apply for Rods.. ..
If you don't mind can you please explain why?

Internet search has yielded this:
Research conducted over eight years by Vasantrao More, 79, a well-known historian attached to Kolhapur University , author of The History of Rod Marathas of Panipat Battle, published by Shivsangram Prakashan, Kolhapur, "Research to locate the lost Maratha soldiers of Panipat by the Peshwas and later by scholars of Punjab University failed because none came across the Rod community. Over 80 per cent of Rod surnames match those of Marathas. As do many customs and words in their dialect."
Is it possible for you to access More's work?

Further:
Says eminent Maharashtra historian Jaisinghrao Pawar who has written many books on Maratha history, "The research done by More is outstanding. The conclusions he has drawn are based on an in-depth study of the social, cultural and economic life of the Rods. It proves that the Rods are indeed descendants of the lost Maratha survivors of Panipat."
Also do you think this architectural similarity description is accurate:
Says Hari Singh Pawar, 63, a Rod farmer from Kemla village near Karnal in Haryana,...."The village had, till recently, a number of Maratha-style havelis. One such old dilapidated haveli can be seen in Jhanjhari village. It has a richly carved rectangular wooden door beneath an arched entrance. Says Naresh Khokhare, 36, a farmer, "The only difference between this entrance gate and the gates of havelis in Maharashtra is that their version is made of black stone while we used wood and carved it."
What about these two points?
As many of the soldiers in the battle of Panipat were from the Konkan region of Maharashtra, that explains why Rod songs have mention of the sea, unheard of in Haryana. And, interestingly, the Rods assign a prominent role to the maternal uncle in any wedding, similar to the practice in Maharashtra.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

ranjbe wrote:
peter wrote: These do not seem like typical Maharashtrians who are relatively short and sturdy.
Very poor steorotyping. There are around 90 million plus Marathis and I can assure you that there are enough amongst us who are not short and sturdy. Both my elder brother and I are 6 feet tall, as are a few cousins and also some of our sons. Some of us are sturdy, some are not! :D
Generalizations are always tricky I agree.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Virendra wrote:
peter wrote:Very interesting. But was it the case that she being a woman was left behind?
When Marathas had a tradition of taking their women alongside to a battlefield, I think they would be steadfast and determined in protecting their women at all cost. Else the practice itself wouldn't have come into existence.
If these Marathas were going back home, they obviously chose a safe time, when conditions were favorable to travel.
I don't see why they would leave their women then, when they didn't in the most dire conditions.
In fact, them returning with women would instill more confidence back home, that things were not so bad after all as a lot of people made it back safe and sound.
Yes. So why would they not go back after all tens of thousands of them did return back? Could it be because they were there before the war and had made it their home?

Similar to how some kachwahas are found in Bihar/Bengal which was ruled by Man Singh under Akbar for a short duration.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

peter wrote:And, interestingly, the Rods assign a prominent role to the maternal uncle in any wedding, similar to the practice in Maharashtra.
Don't intend to divert the discussion, but maternal uncle has very prominent roles in Rajput's weddings as well.
I don't think it is an exclusive Maratha trait.

Regards,
Virendra
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Sanku »

Virendra wrote:
peter wrote:And, interestingly, the Rods assign a prominent role to the maternal uncle in any wedding, similar to the practice in Maharashtra.
Don't intend to divert the discussion, but maternal uncle has very prominent roles in Rajput's weddings as well.
I don't think it is an exclusive Maratha trait.
Maternal uncles are prominent in non Rajput Hindu weddings across all jaati groups in North/Central India AFAIK.
peter
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Virendra wrote:
peter wrote:And, interestingly, the Rods assign a prominent role to the maternal uncle in any wedding, similar to the practice in Maharashtra.
Don't intend to divert the discussion, but maternal uncle has very prominent roles in Rajput's weddings as well.
I don't think it is an exclusive Maratha trait.
Sanku wrote: Maternal uncles are prominent in non Rajput Hindu weddings across all jaati groups in North/Central India AFAIK.
Guess this scratches the similarity with Marathas since it seems more universal.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

peter wrote:
Atri wrote:The entire narrative of PoW do not apply for Rods.. ..
If you don't mind can you please explain why?

Internet search has yielded this:
Research conducted over eight years by Vasantrao More, 79, a well-known historian attached to Kolhapur University , author of The History of Rod Marathas of Panipat Battle, published by Shivsangram Prakashan, Kolhapur, "Research to locate the lost Maratha soldiers of Panipat by the Peshwas and later by scholars of Punjab University failed because none came across the Rod community. Over 80 per cent of Rod surnames match those of Marathas. As do many customs and words in their dialect."
Is it possible for you to access More's work?

Further:
Says eminent Maharashtra historian Jaisinghrao Pawar who has written many books on Maratha history, "The research done by More is outstanding. The conclusions he has drawn are based on an in-depth study of the social, cultural and economic life of the Rods. It proves that the Rods are indeed descendants of the lost Maratha survivors of Panipat."
Also do you think this architectural similarity description is accurate:
Says Hari Singh Pawar, 63, a Rod farmer from Kemla village near Karnal in Haryana,...."The village had, till recently, a number of Maratha-style havelis. One such old dilapidated haveli can be seen in Jhanjhari village. It has a richly carved rectangular wooden door beneath an arched entrance. Says Naresh Khokhare, 36, a farmer, "The only difference between this entrance gate and the gates of havelis in Maharashtra is that their version is made of black stone while we used wood and carved it."
What about these two points?
As many of the soldiers in the battle of Panipat were from the Konkan region of Maharashtra, that explains why Rod songs have mention of the sea, unheard of in Haryana. And, interestingly, the Rods assign a prominent role to the maternal uncle in any wedding, similar to the practice in Maharashtra.
Atriji any chance you can throw some light.....
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yagnasri »

Maternal uncle has important role in Telugu marriage also. May be pan national custom.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Peter, We need to look at some of the battles against the Colonial powers that shaped British India.

For example Veera Pandya Katta Bomman agains the English in deep South India.


My parents took me to see the Tamil film even though I didn't understand the language.


NR, Its the Chalukya/Rastrakuta heritage of the Deccan.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Peter ji, what I meant was that I think marathas went in north to settle there. the Rod community is descendant of these Marathas. Haryana and lands to the east of Sutlaj were very much in Maratha control from 1737 to 1805, that is 44 years after Panipat. It is not that these PoWs were trapped in foreign land with no way to return - this can be said about certain tribes in Baluchistan (Marri or Mareeta tribe of Baluchistan is probably descendant of Maratha PoWs). But this is not applicable for Rods.

If Marathas were indeed taken prisoners by Abdali or Najib, their hold on delhi and eastern punjab lasted hardly for 20 days. battle happened in Jan and by march, Abdali handed overe Delhi and lands east to Sutlaj back to marathas and fled (as I said because peshwa had reached gwalior with 50,000 army).

Rods are those marathas which settled there willingly, not as PoWs.. They cannot be prisoners in land they controlled. Marathas had nothing to fear post March 1761 to continue living in hiding.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Vayutuvan »

In Telugu weddings, Maternal uncles carry the bride to the mantap in a basket called "pAla gampa". I think "pAla" is a some kind of fiber from a tree which yields "pAla pandlu" (pAla fruits) which look very similar to neem fruit, green in color but very sweet.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

ramana wrote:Peter, We need to look at some of the battles against the Colonial powers that shaped British India.

For example Veera Pandya Katta Bomman agains the English in deep South India.


My parents took me to see the Tamil film even though I didn't understand the language.


NR, Its the Chalukya/Rastrakuta heritage of the Deccan.
Were Pandyas related to Chalukyas? I used to think it was a separate kingdom. Where did Veera Pandya live?
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Atri wrote:Peter ji, what I meant was that I think marathas went in north to settle there. the Rod community is descendant of these Marathas. Haryana and lands to the east of Sutlaj were very much in Maratha control from 1737 to 1805, that is 44 years after Panipat. It is not that these PoWs were trapped in foreign land with no way to return - this can be said about certain tribes in Baluchistan (Marri or Mareeta tribe of Baluchistan is probably descendant of Maratha PoWs). But this is not applicable for Rods.

If Marathas were indeed taken prisoners by Abdali or Najib, their hold on delhi and eastern punjab lasted hardly for 20 days. battle happened in Jan and by march, Abdali handed overe Delhi and lands east to Sutlaj back to marathas and fled (as I said because peshwa had reached gwalior with 50,000 army).

Rods are those marathas which settled there willingly, not as PoWs.. They cannot be prisoners in land they controlled. Marathas had nothing to fear post March 1761 to continue living in hiding.
I agree it is hard to believe that Marathas could have lived in Haryana as POWs. At the first chance they would have gotten back home.

What about clan names? If Rods are an offshoot of Marathas should all of their clan names be present in Maratha clan names?
Here is a list from the net. Not sure of accuracy. Which of these clan names are absent in Marathas would you know?
http://rorraja.com/?page_id=13

Is it at all possible to access the research of Kolhapur University professor that I mentioned earlier?
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

peter No. The comment was for Narayana Rao about common customs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veerapandiya_Kattabomman
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Post by Yagnasri »

Gurus say the 3rd Panipat war narrative is to be revisited? some pointers were thereIt was last invasion effort from west and they ran away after the war. Marata forces were immediately mobilized and taken to north. This does not indicate a major debacle.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Panipat 3.0 is tragedy of peshwa family and partially Shinde family. Not collectively of Marathas and India as it is popularly portrayed. Nothing changed in India post Panipat. The territories remained unchanged and abdali suffered severe attrition.

The bhat family and shinde family collectively lost about 20 young and promising leaders from their network. It is indeed a tragedy but from this perspective not national or military perspective.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yagnasri »

But loss of leaders enmass may also result in damage to the nation sir. Has it not said later that premature death of Peshwa due to TB was more damaging that P3 war result.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by mody »

More damaging was the loss of power of the Peshwa post Panipat 3.
Before panipat 3, the Peshwa still called all the shots in the maratha affairs. Individual sardar's could not do as they pleased, with the Peshwa's express permission. Post panipat the sardar's were free to do as they pleased, as long as showed notional respect to the Peshwa and shared the spoils of their adventures with the Peshwa court.
Post panipat 3, the marathas trully became a confederacy, with Shinde, Holkar, Gaikwad, Nagpur bhosle's and others doing more or less as they pleased. They were only supposed to share the spoils of their conquests with the Peshwa.
This led to the Maratha's not being able to present a united front against the British. Had Peshwa not lost the power post panipat 3, then the things could have been different.

Instead of turning back from Gwalior and just assisting the retreating forces, if Peshwa's reinforcement army had continued northwards and engaged Abdali's retreating forces, the things could have swung in Marath'a and particularly the Peshwa's favour. If Abdali's forces had retreated, even taking on Najib and destroying his army could have served the purpose. The peshwa's power and prestige would have been restored. Maybe the Peshwa, could have given the command of this force to Raghoba, who was more of a military man then the Peshwa himself. From gwalior onwards Raghoba could have led the forces, joined with Surajmal from Bharatpur and taken on the retreating forces of Abdali. Just the though of another full fledged campaign, would have had Abdali sueing for peace after a few skirmishes perhaps and najib would ended up being the biggest loser.

Due to panipat 3, the Marath's never managed to establish an empire. After the 27 year war with the Mughal's, the maratha's emerged as destructive and de-stabilizing force from the point of view of the rest of the kingdoms of North India.
The principle source of revenue for the maratha's was war. They imposed chauth and sardeshmukhi on number of smaller kingdoms and raided the Gangetic plains and even Bengal. The rajputs also bore the brunt of their power, just when they thought that they had come out of 300 years of Mughal overlordship.
This was also a big reason, why most of the other powers in North India did not come to support the Maratha's during panipat 3.

As rightly pointed out the biggest looser's on Maratha side from panipat were the Shide's and Peshwa. Peshwa lost power, never to be able regain it to the same level. Shinde's regained power, due to Mahadji. Holkar escaped with minimal losses and prospered further, but lost it in the end due to the infighting. The Gaikwad's were the smartest. They based their main source of revenue on trade, instead of war and managed to become very successful. As compared to the other maratha sardar's they fought very few times, and yet were the richest, with hardly any challenge to their power in Gujarat.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by ramana »

Atri wrote:Panipat 3.0 is tragedy of peshwa family and partially Shinde family. Not collectively of Marathas and India as it is popularly portrayed. Nothing changed in India post Panipat. The territories remained unchanged and abdali suffered severe attrition.

The bhat family and shinde family collectively lost about 20 young and promising leaders from their network. It is indeed a tragedy but from this perspective not national or military perspective.

Same thing with 1962. It was a loss to Nehru only. Not Indian military and not to Indian instituions. But India suffered loss of territory due to his idiocy and fear of military takeover.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by johneeG »

matrimc wrote:In Telugu weddings, Maternal uncles carry the bride to the mantap in a basket called "pAla gampa". I think "pAla" is a some kind of fiber from a tree which yields "pAla pandlu" (pAla fruits) which look very similar to neem fruit, green in color but very sweet.
'Paala' means milk in Thelugu. I heard that this particular custom is based on a Hindhu belief that all grooms are 'Vishnu swarupam' and all brides are 'Lakshmi swarupam'. Since, the bride is 'Lakshmi swarupam', she is brought in a milk-basket because Goddess Lakshmi was born in milky ocean. (Lakshmim ksheera samdhura-raja tanaya...)

And that is also the reason why the groom's feet are washed by the in-laws. Because the groom is 'Vishnu swarupam'.

But, as far as I know, the basket tradition is not followed in Thelangana side. At least, I did not come across such weddings, so far.

Yet, the maternal uncle has important role in marriages in Thelangana also. So, it must be a Hindhu custom and not restricted to any region.
Narayana Rao wrote:Gurus say the 3rd Panipat war narrative is to be revisited? some pointers were thereIt was last invasion effort from west and they ran away after the war. Marata forces were immediately mobilized and taken to north. This does not indicate a major debacle.
Saar,
it may not be the last invasion from west. It seems Abdhaali continued to raid and control parts of Punjab(the greater Punjab parts of which are now in bakisthaan). After Abdhaali's death, his son also continued to raid and hold the regions. But, his son, it seems, was unable to control it.
Atri wrote:Panipat 3.0 is tragedy of peshwa family and partially Shinde family. Not collectively of Marathas and India as it is popularly portrayed. Nothing changed in India post Panipat. The territories remained unchanged and abdali suffered severe attrition.

The bhat family and shinde family collectively lost about 20 young and promising leaders from their network. It is indeed a tragedy but from this perspective not national or military perspective.
Atri Saar,
you are the eminent guru of Maraata history, no doubt. :) But, the above doesn't seem true.

After the Panipath 3.0, Maraata forces were withdrawn from the south(Karnatik region) and taken to north, correct me if I am wrong. That allowed, Hyder Ali to come to power in Mysore. He kept the titular king intact, but usurped all the powers. He would not have dared to do so, if Maraata forces were present there. The withdrawal of Maraata forces gave him the oppurtunity.

Second reaction of Panipath 3.0 was the rise of Sikh kingdom. Immediately after Panipath 3.0, it seems both the participants(Maraatas and Afghans) were weakened. Though, Afghans may have had upper hand in the battle. This created a vacuum in the region. And this vacuum was filled by Sikhs(who were already getting ready from the time of Banda Bahadhur). It seems, though I am not sure, Sikhs were also the ones who protected the Maraatas during retreat from Panipath and attacked the Afghans also. Remember that Abdhali had desecrated the Golden Temple at Amruthsar in one of his previous raids.

After Panipath 3.0, Maraatas were never able to aim at Vangal. This allowed Vangal to completely come under the control of brits. Similarly, in deep south, the brits were able to rise defeating the french.

So, three new power-centers rose immediately after Panipath due to the space ceded by the Maraatas: Sikhs, Hyder Ali(Mysore) & brits. French and Hyder Ali were allies, it seems.

So, Maraatas had to contend with 2 new players(and an old player) in South. South(Deccan/Dakkin/Dakshin was their primary domain. And so the battle came directly to home. So, they had to jostle with all the three players: brits, Hyder Ali and Hyd Nizam. Allying with one to offset other. This jostling continued till 1800. That means, for next 40 years. And there was no clear winner till then. Tipu Sultan was eliminated by brits(but Maraatas and Hyd Nizam also helped weaken him) in 1799. By that time, the French were only weapon suppliers and did not have any other presence. Then, the internal fissures in Maraata empire came forth after the death of Nana Phadnavis in 1800. Which meant the brits had the upper hand. Hyd Nizam was always weak anyways. Except Asaf Jah, the latter Hyd Nizams, it seems to me survived due to politicking and alliances rather than military strength.

All this was happening in south. In East(and North-East), the brits were given a clear path. Because after Panipath 3.0, the Maraatas were never able to venture to East(Vangal). That allowed, the brits to gain East from 1760 to 1800 while jostling in the South. East acted as strategic depth(in South) for the brits. If the brits did not have East in their control, then perhaps, they would have lost in South also. Once, the brits were able to gain upper hand in South starting from 1800, they expanded to West. They were already in control of East and North-East.

The brit expansion into West and North-West was stopped by the strong presence of Ranjith Singh. Ranjith Singh made Lahore his capital in 1799. So, brits could not expand to North-West immediately after 1800. Brits made a pact with Ranjith Singh to stop him from allying with Yashwanth Holkar. Once Ranjith Singh died, brits started expanding into West and North-West.

Basically, Panipath 3.0 is the zenith of Maraata power. After that they were in continuous decline.

But, the one event which seems to signal the rapid decline of Maraata empire is the desecration and looting of Shrungeri.

Shrungeri was looted and desecrated by the Maraata(and its mercenary forces) in 1791. After 3 years(1794), Mahadji Shinde died. He did not have any children. Peshwa called the Shankaracharya of Shrugeri for a reconciliation. But, the looted temple wealth was not returned. Next year(1795), Peshwa Madhav Rao II died. Some say that he committed suicide by jumping from a high place. He also did not have any children. Then, the son of Raghunath Rao was made the new Peshwa by Nana Phadnavis. 5 years later(1800), Nana Phadnavis died.

The new Peshwa, Baji Rao II proved to be a big failure. Yashwanth Holkar's son and wife were killed in the next year(1801). This made Yashwanth Holkar rebel against the Peshwa. Next year(1802), Peshwa Baji Rao II asked for help from brits. Now, for all intents and purposes, the Maraata empire is gone now. That means in 10 years 1791 to 1802, the Empire is gone.

But, the individual Maraata fractions continued to try. But after 3 years(1805), Yashwanth Holkar agreed to a peace treaty. Now Peshwa Baji Rao II was just a titular head while the real power was with the brits.

After 13 years (1818) of living as puppet of brits, the Peshwa tried to reassert his power after the defeat of brits against the Afghans(1st Anglo-Afghan war). But that attempt failed. And this time, the Peshwa was exiled from Poone by brits.

And also remember that Peshwa Baji Rao II suffered from his own problems:
There were many stories making the rounds in the Court of Gwalior about Baji Rao II, where Malgoankar’s grandfather P. Baburao was a minister. One such story was about the ghost of a slain Peshwa, Narain Rao, haunting Baji Rao throughout his life that was widely known to many people due to Baji Rao II’s unceasing efforts to exorcise the ghost. Narain Rao was the fifth Peshwa who was allegedly murdered with the connivance of Baji Rao’s parents as was mentioned earlier. In order to get rid of the ghost, Baji Rao employed the priests of Pandharpur, a temple town of Maharashtra on the banks of a local river. Initially the priests succeeded in driving away the ghost and in gratitude, Baji Rao II ordered the building of a riverside embankment in Pandharpur, which still bears his name. However when Baji Rao II was exiled to Bithur the ghost re-appeared and started haunting again. Since he was forbidden to visit his homeland, he performed religious penances prescribed by the priests of Benares and was extravagant in distributing alms to Brahmins. He built temples, bathing ghats, performed endless poojas (religious prayers), underwent countless stringent fasts, fell at the feet of sadhus and soothsayers, etc., but the ghost wouldn’t leave him. It stayed with him till end warning him that his line will end with his successor, his house will burn to ashes and his clan will perish. Much later, in July 1857 during the Indian Rebellion of 1857, after their successful re-capture of Kanpur, the British forces burnt down Bithur, including the residence of Baji Rao II (wada) where many members of his extended family except his adopted son, Nana Sahib, resided.
Link

So, Baji Rao II also died without sons. And later his adopted son was also killed or disappeared.

The entire Maraata empire crumbled to nought within 27 years from 1791 to 1818. Strictly speaking the Empire was gone within 10 years 1791 to 1802. It seems to me that in 1791, the Maraata empire could still recover from Panipath 3.0. There was a huge famine at the time. But, Maraata empire was poised to recover from Panipath 3.0. But immediately after 1791, they crumbled. The graph goes down suddenly. Imagine a huge empire crumbling down in just a decade...

There is a thelugu movie(perhaps the theme is copied from some other movie) named Murari of Mahesh Babu. Wiki Link It is also based on same theme. Temple of a Goddess is desecrated, it leads to a curse on that family killing people suddenly after a specified time-period. Reading Maraata history, it seems like that actually happened in this case after 1791 desecration of Shrungeri.

-----
There is another such thing that I noticed:
Bhaktha Ramdhaas alias Kancharla Goppanna was arrested and incarcerated by one of the Qutub Shah kings named Tani Shah. Bhaktha Ramdhaas was imprisoned for 12 years in Golconda. Later, Aurangzeb attacked Golconda and he imprisoned and incarcerated the Tani Shah in Dhoulathabaadh for 12 years.

I had always wondered about Bhaktha Ramdhaas. I mean he was given such a harsh treatment by the Tani Shah, yet Tani Shah did not seem to have any blow back. But, I learnt recently that Tani Shah had to suffer similar fate later...

BTW, Bhaktha Ramdhaas's life is a real tragic story. I mean we have x-ists talking about 'suffering' of Yesus. But, even if the story is assumed to be true(which it is not because it is clearly copied from the Buddhist works), even then Yesus suffered for 1 day(ok, maybe 3 days). But, Bhaktha Ramdhaas suffered for 12 years. Yesus' faith starts shaking as soon as pain starts. Bhaktha Ramdhaas remained steadfast in his faith throughout his life. So, even though Yesus is a literary character, even that literary character pales before the real personality of Bhaktha Ramdhaas.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Yayavar »

JohneeG/Atri: Can you shed some light on Battle of Koregaon? It is in usual telling listed as a Mahar vs Peshwa - 500 against 20K. This latter certainly is an exaggeration I'd think unless they were so well entrenched to defend themselves. Also, am puzzled - the articles I read state that Mahars were part of Shivaji's armies (no mention of prior to that), but in Peshwa times strict caste differentiation and humiliation was put on Mahars (why? if in Shivaji's time it was not so) and that is what caused them to join the Brits. Perhaps there is some truth and some exaggeration in the telling.
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Bharath.Subramanyam »

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1511750
Atri:
As I have said in my posts and elsewhere, Panipat-3 is over-publicized. Abdali handed over Delhi and regions to the east of Sutlaj to Marathas in Feb 1761 and left hastily because Peshwa had reached Gwalior with army of 50,000.

Most of the recent research shows that not more than 15,000-20,000 soldiers died in Panipat. It was Ibrahim khan who's contingent was completely cut down (around 8000 men). Next was Peshwa who's personal bodyguard was slain (around 3000 + some of the other generals fighting under Peshwa's banner (Vinchurkar, Gaikwad, Pawar, etc). Men of inner circles of Holkar and Shinde contingent were found around the body of Sadashivrao Bhau. The entire armies of Holkar and most of the men of Shindes staged a successful retreat along with many of their women and treasure. This itself amounts to around 30000 men. Many Maratha women were saved by jats and Sikhs. Bulk of the killings happened of the ordinary pilgrims who had accompanied the army to Kurukshetra for Solar eclipse of November 1760.
A scholar friend of mine had the following observations:

Nearly every detail here is incorrect. Abdali did not leave Delhi in February, but in March. The Peshwa did not reach Gwalior, but Bhilsa. He did not have an army of 50,000, but closer to 20,000 (exact numbers are not recorded, so we cannot say with any certainty, however with what is known, we can infer some number, and for sure upper bound it). The number of soldiers dead at Panipat was at least 30,000 (there are multiple corroborating sources for this) and possibly closer to 35-40,000. The number of non-combatants slaughtered in cold blood the day of, and the 2 days after Panipat cannot be estimated: this is a research question, and my own estimate is 100,000 (as is Shejwalkar's). Not sure what he means by Peshwa's "personal bodyguard" (there was no such thing, if he means the Huzurat, then it numbered over 8000, all of whom perished). Vinchurkar and Gaikwad were not fighting under Peshwa's banner. There were NO MEN of Holkar's contingent that died at Panipat, and none were near Bhau (the field formations placed these very far apart). No maratha women were "rescued" by sikhs or jats (there is not even one historical reference that says this---this propaganda was added relatively recently by people, who even concocted a daughter for the bhau when he was childless :-) ).

I am not sure if such incorrect accounts help anyone. However, I have seen many such accounts on the internet... I spend a good 2 years (several hours daily) carefully reading the primary sources, making inferences, ruling out possibilities, and so on. I have to commit that to writing, and that work is entirely remaining as of now
Atri
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

Bharath.Subramanyam wrote:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1511750
Atri:
As I have said in my posts and elsewhere, Panipat-3 is over-publicized. Abdali handed over Delhi and regions to the east of Sutlaj to Marathas in Feb 1761 and left hastily because Peshwa had reached Gwalior with army of 50,000.

Most of the recent research shows that not more than 15,000-20,000 soldiers died in Panipat. It was Ibrahim khan who's contingent was completely cut down (around 8000 men). Next was Peshwa who's personal bodyguard was slain (around 3000 + some of the other generals fighting under Peshwa's banner (Vinchurkar, Gaikwad, Pawar, etc). Men of inner circles of Holkar and Shinde contingent were found around the body of Sadashivrao Bhau. The entire armies of Holkar and most of the men of Shindes staged a successful retreat along with many of their women and treasure. This itself amounts to around 30000 men. Many Maratha women were saved by jats and Sikhs. Bulk of the killings happened of the ordinary pilgrims who had accompanied the army to Kurukshetra for Solar eclipse of November 1760.
A scholar friend of mine had the following observations:

Nearly every detail here is incorrect. Abdali did not leave Delhi in February, but in March. The Peshwa did not reach Gwalior, but Bhilsa. He did not have an army of 50,000, but closer to 20,000 (exact numbers are not recorded, so we cannot say with any certainty, however with what is known, we can infer some number, and for sure upper bound it). The number of soldiers dead at Panipat was at least 30,000 (there are multiple corroborating sources for this) and possibly closer to 35-40,000. The number of non-combatants slaughtered in cold blood the day of, and the 2 days after Panipat cannot be estimated: this is a research question, and my own estimate is 100,000 (as is Shejwalkar's). Not sure what he means by Peshwa's "personal bodyguard" (there was no such thing, if he means the Huzurat, then it numbered over 8000, all of whom perished). Vinchurkar and Gaikwad were not fighting under Peshwa's banner. There were NO MEN of Holkar's contingent that died at Panipat, and none were near Bhau (the field formations placed these very far apart). No maratha women were "rescued" by sikhs or jats (there is not even one historical reference that says this---this propaganda was added relatively recently by people, who even concocted a daughter for the bhau when he was childless :-) ).

I am not sure if such incorrect accounts help anyone. However, I have seen many such accounts on the internet... I spend a good 2 years (several hours daily) carefully reading the primary sources, making inferences, ruling out possibilities, and so on. I have to commit that to writing, and that work is entirely remaining as of now
:)

Will reply later.. But for starters, the deadbody of Santaaji Wagh (One of the prominent sardar of Holkar) was found near the deadbody of Bhau. Jankoji Shinde too was captured around this part of battle field. The lines of Shinde and HOlkar were at least 3 KM away from Peshwa. What were these two guys doing with Bhau? These were not ordinary men Jankoji was legitimate heir to Shinde legacy. Mahadaji was not a legitimate child of Raanoji (was born from a concubine). Bhau was most probably staging a retreat and these guys were there to assist him. When they got surrounded, fighting and dying was the only option left. Why was Santaaji an important person? Because Maratha emissaries asked Shuja to purchase his body from Abdali (along with some other prominent chieftains) for antim-sanskaar. They paid three lakh rupees for four bodies.

I said Abdali handed over Delhi to Marathas. The February 10, 1761 letter that Abdali sent to Nanasaheb granting Delhi to him and requesting him to maintain status-quo, I have provided here - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1093144

Please invite your friend here on BRF.. Would love to learn from his research..
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Virendra »

I second Atri ji.
I hope it would help me to learn from history enthusiasts.
peter
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

peter wrote:
Atri wrote:Peter ji, what I meant was that I think marathas went in north to settle there. the Rod community is descendant of these Marathas. Haryana and lands to the east of Sutlaj were very much in Maratha control from 1737 to 1805, that is 44 years after Panipat. It is not that these PoWs were trapped in foreign land with no way to return - this can be said about certain tribes in Baluchistan (Marri or Mareeta tribe of Baluchistan is probably descendant of Maratha PoWs). But this is not applicable for Rods.

If Marathas were indeed taken prisoners by Abdali or Najib, their hold on delhi and eastern punjab lasted hardly for 20 days. battle happened in Jan and by march, Abdali handed overe Delhi and lands east to Sutlaj back to marathas and fled (as I said because peshwa had reached gwalior with 50,000 army).

Rods are those marathas which settled there willingly, not as PoWs.. They cannot be prisoners in land they controlled. Marathas had nothing to fear post March 1761 to continue living in hiding.
I agree it is hard to believe that Marathas could have lived in Haryana as POWs. At the first chance they would have gotten back home.

What about clan names? If Rods are an offshoot of Marathas should all of their clan names be present in Maratha clan names?
Here is a list from the net. Not sure of accuracy. Which of these clan names are absent in Marathas would you know?
http://rorraja.com/?page_id=13

Is it at all possible to access the research of Kolhapur University professor that I mentioned earlier?
Atriji Any chance you can look at these clan names?
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

ramana wrote:peter No. The comment was for Narayana Rao about common customs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veerapandiya_Kattabomman
Ramana do you know of a book which describes the battles that Veerapandiya fought?

How is his legacy remembered in Tamil Nadu? Are their songs? Are their any wrietups by bards?
Atri
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by Atri »

no peter ji.. none of the names in that list appear MH..
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Re: Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Post by peter »

Atri wrote:no peter ji.. none of the names in that list appear MH..
:( . Is it still possible that these Rods are descendants of Marathas?
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