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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 08:10 
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NRao wrote:
shiv wrote:
Siachen is not going to be "given up" because it commands the Karakoram pass and the possibility of Chinese and Pakis linking up. Call me a spoilsport but I think too much time is wasted in "predicting" the gifting away of territory to Pakistan. This in fact has nothing to do with Pakistan and represents a basic mistrust of the Indian leadership, and a misunderstanding of the way government functions that manifests in statements all over the forum that something or the other is going to be given up. Yet another case of Indians being convinced that other Indians do not see India like they do but are traitors waiting to bring India down.


I feel you have a point, however, is there a reason that the GoI does not come out and say they will never give it up? Or have they said it in some other terms?


The way I see it is as follows. If you look at the occasional "sober" armed forces assessment of our borders and what might happen in any war (China or Pakistan) the statement is that in war it is sometimes necessary to "give up" some territory where the military is at a disadvantage and try and use the advantage of other areas where the military has an advantage of position. This assessment is that of a military man talking of a dynamic movement of borders. This goes totally against civilian sentiment such as that on BRF "We must not give up an inch of territory". The politician has to answer to the people but yet gets his inputs from the armed forces and has the job of both taking the right professional advice AND keeping the public happy.

In the case of Siachen, India appears to be in a commanding position. This is not one that can be abandoned. But diplomacy requires the idea that everything is negotiable. We are willing to negotiate Siachen. "Negotiate" does not mean give up.

The linking of Hafiz Saeed with Siachen or Sir creek would be ignorance on the part of the person who makes the link. Hafiz Saeed is a zero in the absence of the Pakistani army. It is ignorance to imagine that this is not known to the Indian armed forces and government. it is well known and many diplomats have written articles and spoken about it. Ultimately if trouble arises with Pakistan it is the armed forces who take the brunt. They can wipe out Saeeds in a hurry if they show up (They will hide) . Wiping out the Pakistani army is a different ball game.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 11:42 
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Cross posting from the General Paki forum

The biggest peice of crap with I keep reading about Siachen glacier in both Indian and Paki Media is that Siachen was empty when Indian Army occupied it. Wonder why its so convenient to forget the sacrifices of Bana Singh and Co. and the SSG under one Brigadier Musharaf down hill skied there.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 11:57 
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^^^All that happened after the start of hostilities. however, had IA not occupied the Siachen (which is a wrong term, actually) - it is PA which would have been sitting on our jugular in Nubra Valley.

IA occupies the Saltoro Ridge and certain important passes on it - this ridge is towards west of Siachen and hence, PA is no where even close to the glacier.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 12:07 
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India missed a big chance during the Kargil war. India should have continued further and annexed all of Baltistan and should have attained position to cut off Karakoram Highway anytime it wants.

The bigger enemy is China and one way to deal with China is to cutoff its use of Pakistan as its proxy to tie down India.
With China getting more and more involved in the Northern Areas and even planning to extend the KKH upto the pakistani coast, the biggest way to counter that would to be annex Baltistan.

The exact geography and topography of the area needs to be checked to see if we can build a motorable road from kargil upto Skardu from south of Deosai plains.

The local population in Baltistan are also not too friendly to the establishment in Islamabad or more correctly Rawalpindi, and with a reasonable degree of autonomy and good infra, education and medical development, could be manageable.

Plus if would also offer India a another bargaining chip with regards to China in the form of Shaksgam valley.

In future J&K could then be split into Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh-Baltistan.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 12:11 
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shiv wrote:
Siachen is not going to be "given up" because it commands the Karakoram pass and the possibility of Chinese and Pakis linking up. Call me a spoilsport but I think too much time is wasted in "predicting" the gifting away of territory to Pakistan. This in fact has nothing to do with Pakistan and represents a basic mistrust of the Indian leadership, and a misunderstanding of the way government functions that manifests in statements all over the forum that something or the other is going to be given up. Yet another case of Indians being convinced that other Indians do not see India like they do but are traitors waiting to bring India down.

The worthies who are in Track-2 and the semi-official status enjoyed by them, dont inspire much confidence.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 12:21 
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mody wrote:
India missed a big chance during the Kargil war. India should have continued further and annexed all of Baltistan and should have attained position to cut off Karakoram Highway anytime it wants.

The bigger enemy is China and one way to deal with China is to cutoff its use of Pakistan as its proxy to tie down India.
With China getting more and more involved in the Northern Areas and even planning to extend the KKH upto the pakistani coast, the biggest way to counter that would to be annex Baltistan.

The exact geography and topography of the area needs to be checked to see if we can build a motorable road from kargil upto Skardu from south of Deosai plains.

The local population in Baltistan are also not too friendly to the establishment in Islamabad or more correctly Rawalpindi, and with a reasonable degree of autonomy and good infra, education and medical development, could be manageable.

Plus if would also offer India a another bargaining chip with regards to China in the form of Shaksgam valley.

In future J&K could then be split into Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh-Baltistan.


If you had been following the Kargil war at that time, our Army infrastructure at that time, the taking of our territory itself was a great achievement, we simply had no roads, infrastructure etc. to move into POK, during the 90's we did not do a good job of what the Army needs.

to keeps things short such a move would have turned a victory into disastrous misadventure.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 12:43 
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Well you'r right about the Kargil the conflict. We were not in a position to go after them at the time. But then offcourse that again is our own mistake.

As the things stand, the old assumption that India would be comfortable converting the LoC and AGPL into the international border is not tenable anymore.

With China getting more and more involved in the Northern Areas and going to be the principle Patron state for the client Paki army, the Indian calculation for desirable solution to J&K must involve retaking of 1). Haji Pir pass and any other high ground position along the LoC, that would make it easier for us to defend the LoC. 2).Taking over baltistan to cut off the Paki-China link through the KKH.
Only the Baltistan area should be annexed and not Gilgit. The tribes in Gilgit are a lot more pro paki and war like as compared to the people in Baltistan. The aim should be to advance upto a point and occupy terrotory that would give us the right defensive positions and allow us to target the KKH, anytime we desire to do so.
That will also take of the pressure for us to maintain positions on the Saltoro ridge and rake up Shaksgam as a bargaining chip with China to settle the border problems with China.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 14:57 
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Interview with JF-17 Test Pilot Group Captain Khalid Mahmood

Interview Part-1
Interview Part-2


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 15:01 
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Funny, the Chinese themselves who developed the plane are calling it 3rd gen but Pakis Happily call it 4 gen.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 15:16 
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chinese 3rd gen = ROW 4th gen


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 15:44 
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Rahul M wrote:
chinese 3rd gen = ROW 4th gen


I think ROW means Pakispeak.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 16:10 
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rest of the world.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 16:15 
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Sirjee, care to explain I thought to be 4th gen a fighter needs to have all aspect FBW, good radar and avionics, can do 8g/-3.5g and Ejection seat which works.


Last edited by Aditya_V on 09 Apr 2012 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 16:17 
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all I am saying is that pakis and chinis are NOT claiming diff generations.

I am not saying it is 4th gen, it is 3.5 gen if you ask me.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 22:09 
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Pakistan expanding nuclear arsenal, should India be worried?

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Estimated to have more nuclear weapons than India , Pakistan is rapidly developing and expanding its atomic arsenal , spending about $2.5 billion a year to develop such weapons, a report has said.

"Pakistan has been rapidly developing and expanding its nuclear arsenal , increasing its capacity to produce plutonium, and testing and deploying a diverse array of nuclear-capable ballistic and cruise missiles," said the report 'Assuring Destruction Forever: Nuclear Modernisation Around the World'.

"Pakistan is moving from an arsenal based wholly on HEU to greater reliance on lighter and more compact plutonium-based weapons, which is made possible by a rapid expansion in plutonium production capacity," said the 150-page report by Reaching Critical Will of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.

"Pakistan is also moving from aircraft-delivered nuclear bombs to nuclear-armed ballistic and cruise missiles and from liquid-fueled to solid-fueled medium-range missile. Pakistan also has a growing nuclear weapons research, development, and production infrastructure," it said.

According to the report Pakistan is estimated to have 90-110 nuclear weapons.

"A long-term concern now driving Pakistan's nuclear programme is the US policy of countering the rise of China by cultivating a stronger strategic relationship with India. This may tie the future of Pakistan and India's nuclear weapons to the emerging contest between the United States and China," said the report.

Pakistan has a number of short-range, medium, and longer-range road-mobile ballistic surface-to-surface missiles in various stages of development.

"It has developed a second generation of ballistic missile systems over the past five years. It is estimated that Pakistan could have a stockpile of 2750 kg of weapon-grade HEU and may be producing about 150 kg of HEU per year," it said.

Estimates suggest Pakistan has produced a total of about 140 kg of plutonium, the report said.

While not much information is available on the funding of Pakistan's nuclear weapons project, the report said estimates indicate that Pakistan spends about $2.5 billion a year on nuclear weapons.

Despite extensive foreign military assistance, Pakistan's effort to sustain its conventional and nuclear military programmes has come at increasingly great cost to the effort to meet basic human needs and improve living standards, the report said. India, the report said, is estimated to have 80-100 nuclear warheads.

"It is also developing a range of delivery vehicles, including land- and sea-based missiles, bombers, and submarines," it said.

"While nuclear weapons used to be seen as a 'necessary evil', there is no more enthusiasm for India to become a bonafide nuclear weapon power that can exercise its military might in the region," it said.



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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 00:08 
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The actual report to the above news is in the link below

Assuring destruction forever: nuclear weapon modernization around the world [pdf]


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 10:32 
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Austin wrote:
Interview with JF-17 Test Pilot Group Captain Khalid Mahmood

Interview Part-1
Interview Part-2


This TP is quite professional and it shows in the way he conducted himself in the interview..the buffoon interviewing him OTOH fit the stereotype of the Pakistani to the tee.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 11:31 
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^^^ Yep typical Pakistani media trying to get something on the superiority of PAF etc etc there were other media report in aviation magazine where they mentioned that JF-17 crew interacting with people and media at Farnborough air show were quite professional in their conduct even answering many Indian visitors.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 11:37 
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Austin wrote:
The actual report to the above news is in the link below

Assuring destruction forever: nuclear weapon modernization around the world [pdf]



US has been funding the Pakistan to make more bombs.
Check the video

IT is more than $20B in the last 12 years


Last edited by svinayak on 12 Apr 2012 11:42, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 11:41 
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Obviously all the money received for supporting coilation forces and money earned from grabbing Al-quida targets are funneled into nuclear program and not into conventional program , the latter depends on free goodies from US or China or long term soft credit.

It would make sense for pakistan to keep in increasing its nuclear potential at the cost of conventional arms , it would provide assured detterence against India and even foreign intervention and they can carry out terrorist activity and if required bark at and bite the US.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 21:09 
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Image

In this photo released by Inter Services Public Relations department on Monday, April 9, 2012, a Satellite image shows the site hit by avalanche in Siachen, in northern Pakistan. Rescue workers used bulldozers Sunday to dig through huge banks of snow following a massive avalanche a day earlier that engulfed a military complex and buried at least 135 people, most of them soldiers, in a mountain battleground close to the Indian border.

Image

A military helicopter flies in Siachen Glacier during search and rescue operations April 8, 2012. Pakistan's military hoped for a miracle on Sunday as rescue teams searched for 124 soldiers and 11 civilians buried by a Himalayan avalanche near the Indian border, with no sign of survivors more than 24 hours later


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2012 13:15 
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Interesting looking fast interceptor craft from PN/PMSA:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy ... RTP-16.JPG

PN UAVs (Uqaab?) - note new Camo, hardened shelters and insignia on the trooper's arm

http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/09- ... 938f02.jpg
http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/09- ... c3b0eb.jpg


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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2012 14:33 
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Aditya G wrote:
Interesting looking fast interceptor craft from PN/PMSA:

PN UAVs (Uqaab?) - note new Camo, hardened shelters and insignia on the trooper's arm


Aditya G, can you please remove that links to the other site? They are restricting users coming from BRF. I think it needs to reciprocated in kind. AFAIK we have an unwritten rule not to allow traffic to non-mentionable forums.


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2012 17:50 
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[quote="Aditya G"]Interesting looking fast interceptor craft from PN/PMSA:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy ... RTP-16.JPG

Is that a remote controlled turret I see on the interceptor ?


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2012 19:54 
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Hmmm ……….. Was the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan storing Chemical Warfare weapons at Siachin?:

Pakistan avalanche search hampered by toxic gases


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2012 21:07 
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X Posted from the ISI History and Discussions thread.

Amnesty International raps the Pakistan Military controlled ISI / ISID and other security agencies for their role in enforced disapperances:

Pakistan must account for missing victims of enforced disappearance


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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2012 19:41 
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a fine day in the annals of CT ops - pakistan navy's turn to lead it

http://www.cusnc.navy.mil/articles/2012/CMF009.html


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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2012 19:48 
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Hiten wrote:
a fine day in the annals of CT ops - pakistan navy's turn to lead it

http://www.cusnc.navy.mil/articles/2012/CMF009.html


Not opening for me ... possible available for US only. Kindly post the contents here.


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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2012 20:13 
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PAKISTAN ASSUMES COMMAND OF COUNTER TERRORISM TASK FORCE

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PAKISTAN ASSUMES COMMAND OF COUNTER TERRORISM TASK FORCE

Commander, Combined Maritime Forces Office of Public Affairs

Commodore Mukhtar Khan, Pakistan Navy, relieved Commodore Jonathan Mead, Royal Australian Navy, as Commander, Combined Task Force (CTF) 150 (counter-terrorism), during a change of command ceremony onboard PNS Badr, Mina Salman port, Bahrain, April 17.

The ceremony concluded the Royal Australian Navy's third command of CTF 150, a multi-national task force that conducts maritime security operations (MSO) in the Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Arabian Sea, Red Sea and the Indian Ocean.

Commodore Mead said: “This is the third time Australia has led CTF 150, and it is clear that we have had a powerful and far reaching effect on the maritime domain. We should not underestimate the role which CTF 150 is playing to defeat terrorist activities on the high seas.”

Commenting on the success of CTF 150, Commodore Mead highlighted the recent $5 million drug seizure by HMAS Parramatta in February and the $22 million drug seizure by HMS Westminster in April. By coordinating with the ships in CTF 150, from five different navies, as well law enforcement agencies and coast guards, more than 400 kilos of illegal narcotics was located and destroyed from both incidents.

Mead further added, “The destruction of the drugs was a victory for those who are helping to create a lawful and stable maritime environment, and a set back to terrorists who seek to finance their activities through illegal transportation of narcotics on the high seas.”

This will be the sixth time command of CTF 150 has been held by the Pakistan Navy, who have also held command of CTF 151 (counter-piracy) three times. The 25 personnel team will be based in Bahrain.

Commodore Khan responded: “It is a great honor for me to take command of such an amazing coalition force. Coalition forces are the way forward. CTF 150 is unique and necessary. It promotes common regional goals. The Pakistan Navy has taken a proactive stance to help create a lawful and stable maritime environment. Our partnership through CTF 150 is the hallmark of what a coalition stands for and what it can accomplish.”

CTF150 is a sub command of the Combined Maritime Forces (CMF) and exists to create a lawful and stable maritime environment free from terrorism, smuggling and other illegal activities across an area of two million square miles, covering the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and Gulf of Oman.

For further information contact the Combined Maritime Forces Public Affairs Office on 011-973-1785-9981 or via email at
M-BA-CUSNC-CMF_PAO@me.navy.mil
Photos:


Quote:
120417-N-OX597-045 MINA SALMAN PIER, Bahrain (April 17, 2012) From right, Pakistan Navy Commodore Mukhtar Khan, U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mark Fox, Commander, Combined Maritime Forces (CMF), and Royal Australian Navy Commodore Jonathan Mead listen to opening remarks at a change of command ceremony aboard Pakistan Navy frigate PNS Badr (F184). Khan relieved Mead as commander, Combined Task Force (CTF) 150. CTF 150 is one of three task forces operating under CMF, a 26-nation naval partnership which exists to promote security, stability and prosperity across approximately 2.5 million square miles of international waters in the Middle East, including some of the world's most important shipping lanes. CTF 150 conducts counter-terrorism and maritime security operations in the Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Arabian Sea, Red Sea, and Indian Ocean. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Richard Doolin/Released)


Quote:
120417-N-OX597-050 MINA SALMAN PIER, Bahrain (April 17, 2012) From right, Pakistan Navy Commodore Mukhtar Khan, U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mark Fox, Commander, Combined Maritime Forces (CMF), and Royal Australian Navy Commodore Jonathan Mead salute the Pakistan and Australian national anthems during a change of command ceremony aboard Pakistan Navy frigate PNS Badr (F184). Khan relieved Mead as Commander, Combined Task Force (CTF) 150. CTF 150 is one of three task forces operating under CMF, a 26-nation naval partnership which exists to promote security, stability and prosperity across approximately 2.5 million square miles of international waters in the Middle East, including some of the world's most important shipping lanes. CTF 150 conducts counter-terrorism and maritime security operations in the Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Arabian Sea, Red Sea, and Indian Ocean. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Richard Doolin/Released)


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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2012 07:11 
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X Posted from the Siachen News and Discussion thread.

Retired Brigadier Javed Hussain of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who served with the Special Services Group (SSG) lays out the various abortive Pakistani attempts to wrest Siachhen from India . Admits that India’s move to occupy Bilafod La and Sia La passes in the Saltoro Range was a reaction to Pakistan’s attempt to occupy the Siachen glacier:

The fight for Siachen


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 07:52 
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Attn dhoti wearers, pls to commence shivering: Pakistan to launch missile; alert forces India to rejig flights to Gulf

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/node/116244

Days after India conducted its Agni-V test, Pakistan has informed India it too is conducting a 'long-range missile test in the Indian Ocean' anytime from April 24 to 29 (from 8.30 to 11 am IST), and asked the Indian civil aviation authorities Monday evening to issue a NOTAM (notice to airmen) to warn commercial airlines and pilots to steer clear of the area.

"The communications from Pakistan always come in the last minute, mostly just a day in advance. Airlines have to be informed immediately," sources said.

Pakistan is developing its 'Shaheen' long-range missiles that it hopes can eventually clock a range of 4,000-4,500 kms. Pakistan’s entire nuclear-capable missile arsenal is India-specific and is trying to develop long-range missiles that has strike capacity to destruct whole of India.


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 08:15 
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^^^ I make this the first long range ballistic missile launch out to sea. If memory serves all other long range ballistic missile tests by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan have had an impact point on land.


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 08:23 
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Ameet wrote:
Attn dhoti wearers, pls to commence shivering: Pakistan to launch missile; alert forces India to rejig flights to Gulf

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/node/116244

Days after India conducted its Agni-V test, Pakistan has informed India it too is conducting a 'long-range missile test in the Indian Ocean' anytime from April 24 to 29 (from 8.30 to 11 am IST), and asked the Indian civil aviation authorities Monday evening to issue a NOTAM (notice to airmen) to warn commercial airlines and pilots to steer clear of the area.

I see multiple motivations behind this proposed test

The first is to show "What india can do, we can do"
The second is to challenge the world with the idea that if India is not censured, why should Pakistan be censured
Third is to see if their NoKo tech works.


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 10:37 
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^^^After the NOKO ding-dong blew up in the mid-air, poakroaches might be worried about the stuff they have been sold. Hence, a test for QC purpose and that too, over water because last thing a general sahab wants is some metal piece falling into his lawn....!!!


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 10:47 
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Also to boost their national morale and that of their armed forces that seems to get affected with every Indian missile test.

If pakistan tests a new missile like they say Shaheen-4 then it would indicate that they would wait for india to do its test and then carry on with theirs to avoid intl condemnation and to justify being equal-equal


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 11:03 
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Pakistan-China Joint Mil exercise YOUYI-IV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIk__i7J0xU


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 11:17 
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Pak PN took delivery of the 1st trimaran hulled FAC today (pic in china mil thread), in a Tianjin shipyard. another is expected by end 2012.

looks like it will be the std inshore and raiding platform for the PN, kind of like the Osa class boats used to be for IN ....


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 19:57 
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Austin wrote:
Pakistan-China Joint Mil exercise YOUYI-IV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIk__i7J0xU



For a country where only 50 out of 500 locomotives work they certainly have a mean and efficient looking army. See how that army used to look when Musharraf took over

Image


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 21:24 
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I wont put much stock into an obvious dog-n-pony show like that. But the show aside, the Paks have indeed made some good investments and toughened up (esp those who did tours in KP) over last 10 odd years; the Chinese look ridiculously primped-out, a far cry from their simple and battleready Civil/Korean War veteran forefathers who bloodied India in 1962.


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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2012 22:34 
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Singha wrote:
Pak PN took delivery of the 1st trimaran hulled FAC today (pic in china mil thread), in a Tianjin shipyard. another is expected by end 2012.

looks like it will be the std inshore and raiding platform for the PN, kind of like the Osa class boats used to be for IN ....


I was comparing the much vaunted F-22P class with own ships ... we don't have anything directly comparable in our inventory, as all our frigates are larger and much more heavily armed. While on other hand our corvettes and missile boats are smaller and specialized. Overall it is a well rounded ship given its price - though lacking in air defence capability.

Our P-28 class will be comparable. Talwar and Shivalik are truly in a different league.


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