Small Arms Thread

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rohitvats
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Sagar G wrote:<SNIP>It's meant for CQB and to penetrate soft body armour at 200 m range, nothing more nothing less. <SNIP>
A bit about the use of Sterling 9mm Carbine which this gun is supposed to replace - When the Indian Army was equipped with 7.62mm SLR, the officers and JCO's were armed with the Sterling 9mm Carbine - known simply as Carbine in Army parlance. It was also given to those who would be operating in restricted environment for self-protection - like drivers of supply trucks and others.

Apart from the LMG with infantry units, this was the only automatic weapon which Indians had.

But with the coming of INSAS, the situation has changed - officer and men have the same weapon. I think the Carbine continues in support arms as personal defense weapon of officers and JCOs. And it is here that MSMC may see wider application.

As for use in CQB - IA used various versions of AK series with its RR formations. MSMC to me looks more of a specialized weapon like Uzi which will be used for specific cases. For example, pictures of personal equipment of an operator from Seal Team Six shows Uzi as one of the components - may be Indian SF can adopt the MSMC as their preferred automatic side arm.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by atreya »

rohitvats wrote:A bit about the use of Sterling 9mm Carbine which this gun is supposed to replace - When the Indian Army was equipped with 7.62mm SLR, the officers and JCO's were armed with the Sterling 9mm Carbine - known simply as Carbine in Army parlance. It was also given to those who would be operating in restricted environment for self-protection - like drivers of supply trucks and others.
Rohitvats, can you throw more light on the reason(s) for this? Why two completely different weapons for the officers/JCOs and jawans when they are probably fighting the same battle?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Ithink this comes from early 20th century and WWII assaults where units required a long range rifles and short range SMG's for close quarters battle. For example while assaulting German positions in Italy or Golan Heights soldiers with rifles will keep the enemy within a Bunker and officers with light SMG will get close drop a couple of grenades and spray at short range killing the enemy.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by rohitvats »

atreya wrote: Rohitvats, can you throw more light on the reason(s) for this? Why two completely different weapons for the officers/JCOs and jawans when they are probably fighting the same battle?
I think this was because the SLR was not exactly easy to wield about. And with the platoon commanders and above expected to move about, Carbine was a better option. For officers and Jawans in other arms, it was the personal defence weapon - apart from the 9mm pistol (which surprisingly is/was? not that widespread in use out of fighting arms).
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Austin »

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by SaiK »

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“I sleep well. It’s the politicians who are to blame for failing to come to an agreement and resorting to violence,” he said in 2007
ArmenT
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Nice list, but facts #1, #2, #6, #9, #10, #11, #16 are either bogus or misleading.
1. Mikhail Kalashnikov, who was a tank commander during World War II, began his career as a weapons designer after a shoulder injury during the Battle of Bryansk. While in hospital in 1942, he overheard wounded soldiers complaining about Soviet rifles and decided to change that.
He was actually a weapons designer before then as well. In 1938, he did his service in tanks (partly because he was a short guy and partly because he showed mechanical aptitude) and was known in the Red Army for inventing a Tokarev TT pistol stabilizer, to be used to shoot through a tank slit. He also invented a device to calculate the remaining running time of a tank engine as well as an inertia revolution counter to count how many rounds were fired from the tank gun. These devices were later standardized on soviet tanks of the era. It was for his tank inventions that he was sent to Leningrad in 1941 to help productionize his designs. Unfortunately, he ended up getting caught in wartime and found himself in the Battle of Bryansk and got wounded. While it is true that he was in hospital in 1942, when he heard wounded soldiers complaining about Soviet small arms, the weapon he designed in the hospital was not a rifle, but a sub-machine gun, whose design was promptly rejected! However, his talents did not go un-noticed and he was assigned to the red army's small arms design bureau. Incidentally, the first rifle he designed there was a variant of the US M1 Garand (this design was also rejected in favor of the Simonov SKS design).
2. The first Kalashnikov rifle was produced in 1947, bringing its creator the Stalin Prize and the Order of the Red Star. The AK-47 has been the standard issue assault rifle of the Soviet and then Russian army since 1949.
Actually, when the first AK-47s were manufactured, they were only issued to very select troops in the soviet army in 1949. The soviet army had standardized on the SKS rifle (see above paragraph). It was only in the late 50s that the AKs were issued in numbers to replace the SKS. For one, the early AK-47s had high rejection-rate (because of quality-control issues) and were much more expensive to produce than the SKS. It was only after the Russians acquired some modern production technologies from captured German engineers and made extensive changes to the AK-47 to produce the AKM, that it started to replace the SKS in general use. Therefore, it was the AKM rifle that was produced in the late 50s that became the standard issue, not the AK-47!
6. Russia not only distributes the Kalashnikov rifles all over the world, but also licensed its production in over 30 other countries, including China, Israel, India, Egypt and Nigeria.
Can't speak for the other countries, but India is definitely not a licensee of the design. OFB was producing an unlicensed version and they happened to show it off in a arms fair in India, where Mikhail Kalashnikov was present as a guest. He bitched a lot about it.
9. Relative cheapness has always been one of the most important advantages of AK-47. The average global price of the assault rifle was estimated at $534 in 2005, according to Oxford University economist Phillip Killicoat. Though in African countries the price of AK-47 is on average $200 cheaper.
As noted above, the AK-47 wasn't cheap compared to the SKS, it was the AKM design that was cheap. Incidentally, the price in some African countries is much cheaper than $334 (though they usually aren't Russian origin, but cheaper knock-offs).
10. Osama bin Laden always had a Kalashnikov rifle with him during his video appearances. According to some reports, it was the US, which gave the Al Qaeda founder his first AK-47 to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.
Osama was seen with a short-barrelled AKS-74U Krinkov in most of his video appearances. The one video where he is shown on one knee shooting a rifle, that is an AKM (and looks to be somewhat Khyber pass modified too!)
11. Even now, the US marines carry AK-47 magazines with them because of how common the weapon is.
Not with the Sgt.'s knowledge.
16. A gold coated Kalashnikov assault rifle was recovered by US troops from the weapon collection of former Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein.
Yes, but it wasn't the only gold-plated weapon he owned. He actually owned several gold plated AK models and even a silver plated one. He also owned a gold plated sterling SMG, a gold plated Desert Eagle pistol, a gold plated Beretta M9 pistol, a gold plated RPK, a gold plated dragunov SVD and even a H&K MP-5 with some custom gold engraving. See this link for some cool pictures. Saddam also had gold-plated taps and toilet brushes! Gaddafi was another guy who had gold plated weapons as well. Frankly, I think it is a fairly common modification for many middle eastern rich people.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Rahul M »

some of the mexican druglords had gold plated and diamond studded weapons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... bling.html
http://www.luxist.com/2010/05/05/diamon ... ords-haul/
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Austin »

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Austin »

Rahul M wrote:some of the mexican druglords had gold plated and diamond studded weapons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... bling.html
http://www.luxist.com/2010/05/05/diamon ... ords-haul/
WoW thats some collection and since some of it is Gold , Neshant may like it as well :wink:
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Rahul M »

:lol:

expect singha saurus to come up with a dystopian future where the economy is bound to a gold (Ak-47) standard ! :mrgreen:
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Neshant »

looks more like gold foil.

are they sure if they peel back the wrapper they won't find a chocolate bar underneath
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Austin »

Nice Documentary on Kalashnikov

Kalashnikov TM
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Neshant wrote:looks more like gold foil.
It is, sort of. The gold is applied by electroplating and is a rather thin layer.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

OFB has launched a Titanium revolver for Civilian purchase. It is an interesting development that shows OFB is mastering the technology to work with titanium for small arms. Wonder if Army will ask for titanium GMAG, AGS-17, Vidhawansk etc which can be made upto 20-30% lighter with titanium use or as usual go for imports.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

^^^
They announced that IOF Kanpur were going to make titanium revolvers in .32 cal (7.65 mm.) around the middle of 2012, but so far it doesn't seem to be produced yet (I just checked OFB's website and don't see it, only the older .32 Mark III and Anmol models are there). Is this new news?

Never mind, did a bit of googling and it looks like IOF Kanpur has their own special home page:
http://fieldgunindia.gov.in/
and there's a link to the Nirbheek revolver. Looks like IOF Kanpur is finally producing it after all. Odd that it can't be seen on OFB's main website.

[edit 2]Looks like they're taking bookings, but it isn't in general production yet. The picture on IOF Kanpur's page is that of the older Mark III model and even the India TV video report appears to be showing the Mark III model (you can clearly see it say "Mk III" when they show the side view in this report at around 0:41): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocT8or3yL8I[/edit 2]
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

Notice the gun ?

Image
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by KiranM »

Black frame INSAS with UBGL. Kewl 8) . Any idea if this is the same UBGL imported to use with AKs/ Tavors? Or indigenous versions?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Brando »

^^ Also notice the "gloves" worn by the soldier in the foreground. Are those military issue and allowed in the Indian Army ?? I was under the impression soldiers wore no gloves. In the US Army fingerless gloves are not allowed apparently, interested to know what the official position on it is in the IA.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

This UBGL is the same one OFB displayed in DefExpo 2012 with INSAS.
Gloves look like the kind people use in gyms, not 400% sure though. :oops:
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_24580 »

What is bodyguard in black carrying?

[url]http://www.news18.com/videos/dont-fear- ... 41175.html[/url]
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

My first thought was MP7. But looking closely it resembles some kind of a carbine extension rail for Glock.

Like this?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by joygoswami »

DRDO is set to unveil the multi-caliber individual weapon system (MCIWS) being develped by the Armaments Research and Development Establishment (ARDE).

Image
Image

LINK
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

Thats a good looking one. It looks closer to an AR then an AK. I hope the operational mechanism is similar to Insas though.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

DRDO has been straining at its leash for developing a follow on to INSAS rifle from atleast 2005 onwards. They got the go ahead, or rather I believe the GSQRs around 2009-2010. The first bench test at DRDO labs was supposed to be in Middle of 2012, so we are pretty early in the trials, which can run for many many years followed by delays in setting up the production line.

The info about new MCIWS is very limited, a few short lines in a blog and couple of low resolution picture. But my observations are:-

1. It is supposed to be machined from aluminum alloys which means that it will be light and will not heat up quickly. Even though DRDO has exposure to Composites with MSMG, they have done well to avoid the fad, as plastics tend to distort in extreme climates and weight saving is reduced as some portions have to be backed up by metal sheet in any case. The same philosophy has been adopted by HK-416 which has won the competition for US IAR.

2. Similar to HK-416 we have collapsible butt but DRDO has again done well to avoid additional complexity of hinged butt. The heavy lever in the open butt indicates that the butt contact points for extension and collapse would be true without flex & rattle. The collapsible butt should allow adjustment for ease of carriage, ergonomics, bullet proof jacket and also for confined spaces.

3. Similar to HK-416 design we have straight line design which allows for better control ability of recoil and in auto fire by reducing muzzle climb.

4. Now how multi caliber change is achieved ? seems to be unclear but careful look at the pictures indicates there is rectangle (joint) above the magazine well. This would indicate (my guess) that the rifle breaks open by removing the lower front half of the receiver including the magazine well.

5. First this has the big benefit of removing the hinged upper receiver of the INSAS which has been a big problem. As evident if the sights are mounted on a hinged joint then after some time the joint will become rattly/loose and the sights will not be able to maintain the zero. So similar to HK-416 concept (borrowed from M-16, Sig) the lower part of receiver seems to break open for field stripping the rifle.

6. The Caliber change (my guess) will be evidently achieved by field stripping the rifle, and replacing the barrel & bolt group, lower receiver & magazine well while retaining the butt, trigger group, top receiver, back portion of lower receiver, fore-end heat guards/grips.

7. Personally I think that multi caliber is useless requirement adopted to favor some particular firangi company. Only USA tried adopting it, that for only its SF and even they ultimately walked out of it. Anyway, army has got what they wanted.

8. Most probably the well tested INSAS trigger group, rotary bolt, piston system (borrowed from AK-74 and somewhat same in HK-416), sights etc will be retained. Muzzle break seems to be same as INSAS. Though I hope better alloys will be used to lower weight and improve performance.

9. Army seemed to want a conventional design and thus MCIWS is conventional layout. Again an over-clever design which will allow it to be changed to bullpub or over complicated design like forward ejection + bull pub has been avoided.

10. The gas adjustment system, piston etc are not clear from the pic. Hopefully there is no rapid barrel change which adds useless complexity. (Again there is no rapid barrel change in HK-416 but one can change the barrel group has a whole).

11. The issue of ruggedness of INSAS magazines has been addressed by adopting metal inserts in the plastic magazine.

12. Proprietary rail of INSAS has been dropped in favor ubiquitous picatinny. There seems to be attachment point for fore-grip or bipod stand.

13. The carrying handle and butt trap etc from INSAS system has been dropped and we have bad @ss black color. The problem of handle being too below the barrel in INSAS also seem to have been addressed. Also the issue of feeding lip of magazine also being too low in INSAS, seems to have been addressed. That is rifle seems to more ergonomic and attempt has been made to remove the niggling kinks of INSAS.

14. There may only be a marginal improvement in weight but it seems that not only all the concerns in INSAS have been addressed, we have avoided an over-reach which has been a bug bear of DRDO in other projects.

15. The rifle will be evidently way more costly then INSAS and I wonder whether OFB has a capability to pull up its socks to manufacture such a sophisticated rifle (??).

16. The first pic of MICWS emerged in Ajay Shukla blog. Everybody noted the bullpub but as I pointed out even at that time the conventional rifle was the MCIWS.

pic

17. Incidentally DRDO has been working to improve 5.56mm ammo also, lets see what comes of it.
Last edited by vic on 05 Feb 2014 20:20, edited 4 times in total.
abhik
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by abhik »

The MCIWS looks like a full length rifle. A lot of western armies seem to be moving towards carbines.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Lilo »

new pocket-sized syringe that can seal gunshot wounds within just fifteen seconds has been developed by scientists.

The syringe Called XStat, developed by Oregon-based RevMedx, injects specially coated sponges into wounds.

The device could boost survival and spare injured soldiers from additional pain by plugging wounds faster and more efficiently than gauze, 'Popular Science' reported.

"That is what we pictured as the perfect solution: something you could spray in, it would expand, and bleeding stops," said John Steinbaugh, former US Army Special Operations medic.

The team used ordinary sponges and cut them into one-centimetre circles. They then injected the bits of sponge into an animal injury.

"The bleeding stopped. Our eyes lit up. We knew we were onto something," said Steinbaugh.

Researchers settled on a sponge made from wood pulp and coated with chitosan, a blood-clotting, antimicrobial substance found in shrimp shells.

They added X-shaped markers that make each sponge visible on an x-ray image in order to ensure that no sponges are left inside the body accidentally, the report said.

The sponges expand to fill the entire wound cavity in just 15 seconds, creating enough pressure to stop heavy bleeding.

Since the sponges cling to moist surfaces, they aren't pushed back out of the body by gushing blood.

"By the time you even put a bandage over the wound, the bleeding has already stopped," Steinbaugh said.
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ne ... 443?rhnews
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

New MCIWS has facility for change of barrel group, hence it can be equipped for any type of barrel like 10 inch for self defense, 13-15 inch for carbine, 16-18 inch for normal assault rifle, 18-20 inch for marksman role, heavy barrel for LMG etc.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

Latest pics from Def Expo of MCIWS show it with folding sights and fore grip.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

Vic, good writeup.

The pics also show pretty good production quality, even for a prototype which shows signs of weathering. Looks like a huge step up from INSAS. Granted this is a prototype from 2013 and likely to go through further refinement, and will have to meet demanding IA criteria, but its still a big change features and build quality wise apparently.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... db/MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by VinodTK »

Kalashnikov to start building assembly facility in India in 2014
The Russian firearms company Kalashnikov will start setting up a joint assembly facility in India in 2014, Kalashnikov CEO Alexei Krivoruchko told journalists on Friday.

"I think we will start building a production facility in India this year. It's going to be an assembly line at the first stage, and we plan to reach a figure of 50,000 items a year," Krivoruchko said. He described India as "an extremely promising market."

Kalashnikov eyes Indian partners for weapons production

Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern is in talks with several Indian companies on setting up joint ventures to produce small arms and high-precision weaponry, a company official said Thursday.

“India for us is a market with high potential… and we are marketing here all weapons on our production list, including assault rifles, sniper rifles and high-precision weapons,” Andrei Baryshnikov, Kalashnikov exports director, said at the DEFEXPO INDIA-2014 exhibition in New Delhi.

“Taking into account the specifics of Indian legislation, we are considering the possibility of establishing joint ventures on arms production. Talks are underway with specific companies,” Baryshnikov said.

He added that the possible ventures would be involved in production of combat weaponry as well as firearms for civilian use, including hunting rifles and shotguns.

The Kalashnikov Concern, one of the world’s largest firearms producers, makes the famed AK-47 assault rifle and its military derivatives.

The company also produces a wide range of civilian guns for sport shooting and hunting.

It recently signed a deal with a US firm to supply 200,000 firearms annually, and is looking to market aggressively its products worldwide.

Kalashnikov Concern exports Kalashnikov guns to US and Canada

The Russian Kalashnikov Concern has signed an agreement with the United States and Canada on exports of up to 200,000 units of Kalashnikov weapons per year, the press service of the Kalashnikov Concern announced.

The agreement was signed in the framework of the Shot Show- 2014 exhibition. The volume of Kalashnikov Concern's exports to the United States and Canada is expected to make up from 80,000 to 200,000 units per year.

"The RWC as an exclusive dealer with the Kalashnikov Concern will help the Kalashnikov Concern carry on a consistent policy in the field of sale of sporting and hunting rifles in North America. We expect this cooperation to increase the Kalashnikov's share on the biggest market of civilian weapons in the world," said Kalashnikov's Deputy director general for sale and marketing policies Pavel Kolegov, commenting on the deal with the North American partners.

The agreement envisages that RWC has an exclusive right to deliver sporting and hunting rifles of Izhmash and Baikal brands, produced by the enterprises of the Kalashnikov concern, for five years.

Spokeswoman for the Kalashnikov Concern Yelena Filatova specified that the volume of exports are to make up from 80,000 to 200,000 units per year. The RWC is to carry out all the operations to promote the Kalashnikov products on the market and ensure their maintenance and guarantee servicing, she told Itar-Tass on Thursday.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Karan M wrote:Vic, good writeup.

The pics also show pretty good production quality, even for a prototype which shows signs of weathering. Looks like a huge step up from INSAS. Granted this is a prototype from 2013 and likely to go through further refinement, and will have to meet demanding IA criteria, but its still a big change features and build quality wise apparently.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... db/MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg
I actually love this weapon so much that I feel it must find its way into the scenarios dhaga at some point, don't you agree? 8)
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

The position of charging handle, apart from other features discussed above, shows that for all practical purposes it is a reverse engineered HK-416. Not to forget HK-416 recently won the US competition for IAR, hence DRDO MCIWS can be considered the most advanced and most rugged rifle at the moment in the world. I hope you guys noted that 5 picatinny rails are moulded in the receiver, which shows that army may be intending to introduce optics, add-ons whole hog, as part of standard equipment in the forces.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

vic wrote:The position of charging handle, apart from other features discussed above, shows that for all practical purposes it is a reverse engineered HK-416.
I would have thought it would have more in the common with the FN FAC, aside from the stock design.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by nash »

vivek_ahuja wrote:
I actually love this weapon so much that I feel it must find its way into the scenarios dhaga at some point, don't you agree? 8)
love to :) what about Brahmos-M and shourya ? :D
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Victor »

The .32 Nirbheek revolver betrays a WW1 mindset though. If it is really for women, one would expect a smaller, simpler gun, maybe a .25 auto, which would stop an attacker but not kill him.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Sagar G »

Karan M wrote:Vic, good writeup.

The pics also show pretty good production quality, even for a prototype which shows signs of weathering. Looks like a huge step up from INSAS. Granted this is a prototype from 2013 and likely to go through further refinement, and will have to meet demanding IA criteria, but its still a big change features and build quality wise apparently.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DO_MCR.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 06!MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... db/MCW.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Rifle.jpg
Remember this beauty would have never happened if INSAS wasn't mass produced.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

Probably the manufacturing expertise also came from UBGL which is also has machined aluminum body. Anyway technologically it is more advanced and rugged than 4 out of 5 foreign contenders for Army assault rifle/carbine tender. Only ARX-160 will be a more advanced or rather more complicated than MCIWS but than MCIWS will be way more rugged, sturdy, robust and soldier proof than ARX.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by abhik »

The whole "Multi-Caliber" thing might be a bogus requirement needlessly making the MCIWS complicated and expensive.
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