Small Arms Thread

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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Viv S wrote:Image

Can someone tell me what kind of scope this is? Doesn't look like a regular reflex/holographic sight.
Looks like Raptor by Alpha Design Technologies. In one of the MCIWS pictures one can clearly make out an Alpha sigh on the left side of the sight. If not Raptor, must be an iteration of the design.

Raptor

Magnification - X1
FOV - Unlimited for both eyes open
Parallax - 0.25 mrad
Weight - <250 gr.
Dimensions - 140x45x45 mm
Boresight Travel - >10 mrad from center
Boresight increment - 0.4 mrad
http://www.adtl.co.in/rifle_aiming_dev.html

Image
vaibhav.n
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vaibhav.n »

Thakur,

IIRC, Raptor's are Elbit-ITL Sights. They could be license manufactured by Alpha.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

vaibhav.n wrote:Thakur,

IIRC, Raptor's are Elbit-ITL Sights. They could be license manufactured by Alpha.
Actually, Elbit MARS sights are listed as is on Aplha's site. Raptor does not seem to be similar to MARS. It could very well be IRDE designed stuff.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 11 Sep 2015 12:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kartik »

Indian Army pushes ahead with Excalibur rifle programme- Janes
The Indian Army is fast-tracking the development and induction of the indigenously designed Excalibur 5.56 x 45 mm assault rifle as it looks to plug a major operational void.

Senior army officials told IHS Jane's that 200 prototype Excalibur rifles, fabricated at the Ordnance Factory Board's (OFB's) Rifle Factory Ishapur (RFI) in eastern India, would undergo user evaluation trials later in 2015.

Once approved, the army plans to induct over 600,000 Excalibur for around INR36 billion (USD541 million), or around INR60,000 each.

The army opted for the Excalibur after scrapping its 2011 tender for 66,000 multicalibre assault rifles in June, as none of the four foreign models tested met its qualitative requirements.

The Excalibur is a retrofitted version of the Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) assault rifle, designed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and rejected by the army in 2010 for being "operationally inadequate".

The gas-operated, fully automatic rifle has a foldable butt, Picatinny rail for sights, sensors, and bipods, and its polycarbonate magazine is superior to that of the INSAS rifle, which was known to frequently crack in extreme hot and cold climates.

The Excalibur's barrel is 4 mm shorter than that of the INSAS and its hand guard is smaller.

Indian Army Chief of Staff General Dalbir Singh is strongly backing Excalibur as it is a 'Make in India' programme and so fits in with the government's preference for locally manufactured equipment. He has posted infantry officers at RFI to conduct test firings and offer advice on design improvement, sources said.

On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.

The OFB aims to begin series producing Excalibur on modified INSAS production lines at RFI in 2016 .

Meanwhile, the army has still to decide the outcome of the 2010 tender for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) carbines, trials for which concluded in 2013. These featured Beretta's ARX 160, IWI's Galil ACE carbine, and Colt's M4.

The Indian Army has been without a carbine since 2010 when it removed the licence-built Stirling 1A1 9 mm sub-machine gun from service.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by rkhanna »

On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.
Dont get this. Why are senior officers testing and giving 'alteration' suggestions. These guys havnt held a rifle in a really long time. Shouldnt Senior NCO/JCO's be tasked with evaluating and giving feedback on a rifle?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Nitesh »

It should have been phrased like :
On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted supervised the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

rkhanna wrote:
On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.
Dont get this. Why are senior officers testing and giving 'alteration' suggestions. These guys havnt held a rifle in a really long time. Shouldnt Senior NCO/JCO's be tasked with evaluating and giving feedback on a rifle?
Reminds me of the Arjun tests. Each jarnail visiting HVF/CVRDE and giving gyaan on what needed to be changed etc and next jarnail would come in and say the exact opposite. Hopefully too many cooks won't spoil the broth this time around.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Yagnasri »

GOI at that time has Saint as DOM and now it is MP. The same story may not be same this time. Hopefully.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vaibhav.n »

rkhanna wrote:
On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.
Dont get this. Why are senior officers testing and giving 'alteration' suggestions. These guys havnt held a rifle in a really long time. Shouldnt Senior NCO/JCO's be tasked with evaluating and giving feedback on a rifle?

How times fly!!

Sanjay Kulkarni (4 Kumaon) was the first Indian to jump out of an hovering IAF Cheetah during Op Meghdoot and captured Bilafond La for us. That when half the boys suffered HAPO and frostbites.

They gave him a Shaurya Chakra for that.

The other adventurous character is Ajay Bahuguna (Ladakh Scouts).
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

The issue is not of Gen Kulkarni's bravery - to be a jarnail one would have many such harrowing cases in the backdrop. Problem is our lack of institutionalized cooperation with IA/OFB that he has to visit and make suggestions this "one time" versus having him as part of the process from day 1 along with many other IA folks (not just shooters) so the entire rifle comes out spick and span. Having said that, I hope he gave OFB a talking to on their QA and QC and general fit and finish of their products. A jarnails word counts for a lot more than average jawans in our system.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vaibhav.n »

Karan,

This top-down driven gyan is not ideal possibly even harzourdous but far better than a stand-off approach. As the DG Infantry it is but natural that he be involved into a speedy induction of the rifle.

ARDE's competency on that score is another matter altogether at the other end of the spectrum. We need not travel down that road.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vaibhav.n »

Thakur_B wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:Thakur,

IIRC, Raptor's are Elbit-ITL Sights. They could be license manufactured by Alpha.
Actually, Elbit MARS sights are listed as is on Aplha's site. Raptor does not seem to be similar to MARS. It could very well be IRDE designed stuff.
It's ITL only.
For other applications ITL introduced the Raptor, a small form factor, low-silhouette mini-reflex sight. Raptor is equipped with a motion activated "always ready to fire" mechanism that eliminates the need for manual turn-on and off operation while minimizing energy consumption. The day and night capable sight is mounted on a standard Picatinny rail, and can be augmented with x3 telescope, without zeroing, for extended range operations. The sight is powered by a single 1.5V AA battery.
http://defense-update.com/features/du-3 ... ghts-2.htm
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

vaibhav.n wrote:Karan,

This top-down driven gyan is not ideal possibly even harzourdous but far better than a stand-off approach. As the DG Infantry it is but natural that he be involved into a speedy induction of the rifle.

ARDE's competency on that score is another matter altogether at the other end of the spectrum. We need not travel down that road.
My issue is more that it took a Dalbir Singh/COAS directive to make the DG Infantry drive this program as versus DG Infantry doing it on its own.
ARDE's competency is directly linked to the number of products they get into service, their cooperation with the Army in that sense and their manufacturing partners. None of these can be seen in isolation. Unfortunately, in the dysfunctional system we have today, they are isolated and hence end up stagnating or losing out on whatever they learn and can't build on it. Elsewhere, a country like the US which has mostly middling tank designs like the Shermans or Pattons or M60s comes out with an Abrams. In India, we don't work with the same dogged determination and are hence import dependent.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

DRDO and OFB need to work on various other small arms projects also to ugrade legacy weapons and to provide alternative to imports like :-

Pistols, SA sniper rifle, Bolt action sniper rifle, light Anti Material rifle, RPGs, HMGs, Shotgun etc
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ramana »

ArmenT, I watched a Russian movie called "Stalingrad'. One of the protagonist fires a sub-machine gun which has a flash suppressor. It has a three way ports: two sideways and one vertical. When fired the flash emerges from two sides and the top.
Do you know of any such gun?

Have you explored flash suppressors designs in your blog?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

rkhanna wrote:
On 1 September Gen Singh, accompanied by Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, Director General Infantry (DGI), visited the RFI and personally conducted the 'water' and 'mud' tests on the rifle, which it reportedly cleared. Both officers also proposed ergonomic alterations to the rifle to render it more user-friendly.
Dont get this. Why are senior officers testing and giving 'alteration' suggestions. These guys havnt held a rifle in a really long time. Shouldnt Senior NCO/JCO's be tasked with evaluating and giving feedback on a rifle?
Apologies. Nothing personal intended. But the idea that a junior person must always do a particular job and report to a senior sounds exactly like the bureaucratic government structure that leads to poor leadership and an undeserved sense of entitlement based on rank. I have seen this attitude in government offices where the person at a desk will not hand a file to a person in the next desk but wait for a peon whose job it is to come and do that. Senior officers come up in the ranks and the best among them have a good idea of what their men face and what they need and I am actually inspired by the news that senior officers involved themselves in the testing.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by kit »

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap ... 50918.aspx

In mid-2015 Lithuania temporarily suspended purchases of German G36 assault rifles because a recent German Army study concluded that the G36 was unreliable during sustained combat, especially in hot weather. Lithuania has been using the G36 since 2005 and their current G36 contract is worth about $14 million.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

ramana wrote:ArmenT, I watched a Russian movie called "Stalingrad'. One of the protagonist fires a sub-machine gun which has a flash suppressor. It has a three way ports: two sideways and one vertical. When fired the flash emerges from two sides and the top.
Do you know of any such gun?
Yes, lots of other firearms do something similar. For instance, early M16 models had a suppressor with duckbill shaped prongs that would only direct the flash through the sides and bottom, and not the top, so as to not destroy the shooters night vision when shooting in the dark. Trouble was that the duckbill prongs would pick up grass and vegetation, so early on, they started to replace the duckbill with a birdcage design that was closed on both ends, which fixed the problem of picking up vegetation. However, some users complained that when firing in the prone position, it was throwing up dust. Therefore, in the M16A2 design, they revised the suppressor so it only redirects the flash out through the sides and not the top or bottom. Same concept is used in SIGs and H&K and other rifles as well. I think it is a given now that any rifle with a flash suppressor these days does this.
ramana wrote:Have you explored flash suppressors designs in your blog?
Please see here :)
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-c ... R-30.3.pdf
In a country where the caste, creed and
corruption form the backbone of our democratic
system, the Indian Army cannot be kept isolated.
No wonder, the 1.18-million strong Army’s
quest for 66,000 new rifles for its 382 Infantry
battalions becomes a super lucrative deal (an
estimated $3 billion to $4 billion) rendering
indigenisation unattractive. It
should come as no surprise if
probed, that there are forces
supported by the politico-
bureaucratic-military nexus
serving the designs of the arms
mafia, who deliberately want
this indigenous effort quashed
.
It may be surprising, but not
really though, that our scientists
can develop and launch a probe to Mars but fail
to produce an assault rifle

According to sources in Army Headquarters,
during the ongoing field trials, the double-
barrel rifles of foreign make on offer - with a
5.56 x 45 mm primary barrel for conventional
warfare and a 7.62 x 39 mm secondary one
for counter-terror operations - have thus far
not been found robust enough for the military
operations envisaged.
read it all at the link above,,
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

Delhi police commandos are now carrying corner shot guns. Saw one near India Gate today, but they refused a photo.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

Thakur_B wrote:Looks like Raptor by Alpha Design Technologies. In one of the MCIWS pictures one can clearly make out an Alpha sigh on the left side of the sight. If not Raptor, must be an iteration of the design.
Thanks.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

OFB reveals MP-5 styled gun called Anamika (9mm) at Homeland Expo. Nice gesture to H&K, German Govt for refusing permission to our state forces under the claim of human rights and what not.

Image
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/atta ... 9-jpg.6282

You need to login to Defence Forum India to view this.
Karan M
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

Hmmm...I got it off Twitter and the image was showing up for me.. can anyone login and take a snapshot?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakarat »

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Rahul M »

anamika ?? seriously ??
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_22539 »

^Who cares, so long as it works.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

The Anamika may not be an exact clone of the H&K MP-5. Specs on the DFI page also say that this is operating on an open bolt principle. For comparison, H&K MP-5 is closed bolt, Uzi, Sten and Sterling are open bolt. Also, it says that it is "delayed blowback". Now all blowback systems are delayed, that's how they work. The differences between the various blowback mechanisms are really about how the delay is achieved. In the case of MP-5, it is done by using rollers to act as levers and apply extra resistance to the initial backward movement of the bolt and that's why it is called a roller-delayed blowback mechanism. Not sure how the blowback delay is achieved on the Anamika, because all it says is "delayed blowback". Perhaps it could be a straight-blowback design like the Uzi and the Sten or advanced primer ignition blowback like the Sterling. Further details would be nice.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_22539 »

It seems someone took it and spray-painted it all over uniformly. I cannot see any change in texture or tone all throughout the weapon. I wonder if it is the real gun or just some model.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

ArmenT wrote:The Anamika may not be an exact clone of the H&K MP-5.
Anamika was supposedly being developed by reverse engineering. Didn't expect it to be anything less than MP-5 clone.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by JE Menon »

Is the gun in the picture an old weapon? It looks scratched and dusty, look at the forehand grip and the buttstock. Doesn't look new at all...

and now having seen Arun Menon's post about the spray-painting, and uniform texture/tone, I'm wondering if I'm looking at the right picture...
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Austin »

Moscow International Exhibition "ARMS & Hunting 2015" ( pictures )

http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/623
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_22539 »

JE Menon wrote:Is the gun in the picture an old weapon? It looks scratched and dusty, look at the forehand grip and the buttstock. Doesn't look new at all...
Scratches, dust and oil marks aren't a surprise. Even the higher quality milled variety MCIWS at the expo were ones that were obvious used and used well, given the wear and tear and oil marks. Seems like our weapons developers don't get enough funding to have prototypes as well as TFTA exhibition models. Kind of sad in fact. Gives us an idea of the odds against them
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_22539 »

Austin wrote:Moscow International Exhibition "ARMS & Hunting 2015" ( pictures )

http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/623

Nice pics. Particularly liked the engraved gun as well as the revolver guns (antiques?).
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by uddu »

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD Oct 13 New Delhi, Delhi

#HandInHand 2015: Analysing bullet hits on target by Chinese soldier who fired the Indian INSAS rifle.
Image
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Mihir »

Rahul M wrote:anamika ?? seriously ??
If it gets wet in the rain, the troops could get together and sing "meri bheegi bheegi si..."

<I'll see myself out>
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by uddu »

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=507 ... ced-Pistol

Army wants pistols with suppressors for special forces (unspecified caliber). This seems to be separate from Army's hunt for a new 9mm side arm.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

For all the INSAS whiners - just goes to show that if the INSAS has been shown to work across most of our conditions, imported fancy stuff is likely to fail badly when attempting to replace it.

Here is H&K - the world's supposed best firearms maker. And their guns, TFTA, fancy looking, full of the best tech and what not. Fail when two mags are fired through them in demanding conditions.

We best stick with what works and finetune it further - the INSAS, rather than importing another boondoggle.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sas-uk-antiter ... er-1498431
A report commissioned by Germany's defence ministry, and seen by the Sunday Times, revealed that when the G36 assault rifle overheats – either due to overheating caused by hot or humid weather or firing too many rounds over a short period – it becomes very inaccurate.

When temperatures reach 30C, the G36's accuracy degradation is said to be exceed 50cm at a range of 200m. Reports in the German media claim that rounds fired at targets 500m away missed by as much as six metres.

The rifle is said to become unreliable after the firing of just two magazines (60 rounds).


German federal defence minister Ursula von der Leyen, who commissioned the tests, says the G36 has "serious faults" and the rifle has "no future" with the German military.
http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-t ... a-18402772

Weapons
Heckler & Koch G36: the rifle held in all the wrong places

Is it the plastic barrel holder? Or the tin cover? These questions are at the center of a hot debate surrounding "serious faults" with the Bundeswehr's favorite gun. DW leads you through the storm that is the HK G36.

It all started back in 2010, on Good Friday, following a Taliban ambush just outside German ISAF headquarters in Kunduz, northern Afghanistan. Thirty-two Bundeswehr paratroopers, cut off from the rest of their division, were plunged in a completely unexpected, nine-hour struggle of life and death .

During the firefight , the rifles being used by the paratroopers overheated, forcing them to retreat, and on the way back to Kunduz, an armored vehicle that had been dispatched rode over a landmine. The April 2, 2010 attack cost the lives of three German soldiers, and it initiated a debate that reached its climax this Wednesday, over five years later, concerning the Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle.
Cherry-hot barrel

When the G36 overheats, either because of the temperature it finds itself in or because of constant, rapid fire, the precision and accuracy of the rifle suffer. The reason for this, according to the Defense Ministry, is that the rifle's barrel holder is made of a composite polymer that - even at a temperature as low as 23 degrees Celsius - softens and is no longer able to hold the barrel straight. Many of the components of the rifle are made of plastic, which account for its lighter weight when compared to its counterparts, such as the French FAMAS F1 or the American Colt AR-15.

A strictly classified series of tests conducted over the past months by three different applied science organizations, two Bundeswehr-related and one independent, was presented to von der Leyen at the end of March. The results, which were leaked to Reuters and select German media outlets, raised eyebrows well beyond the Defense Ministry.

All it takes is two magazines (60 rounds of ammunition) to heat up the barrel to an extent that "serious accuracy degradation" occurs, the researchers found. At this point, the accuracy degradation can be as severe as 50 centimeters at a range of 200 meters, and a full 6 meters at a range of 500 meters.


"The Heckler & Koch G36 has no future in the German army in its current state of construction," von der Leyen said in front of dozens of journalists following a special convention of the parliamentary committee on Wednesday.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 012_1.html

So rigorous are the army's trials that four of the world's best rifles - Italian company Beretta's ARX-160; the American Colt Combat Rifle; Israel Weapon Industries ACE-1, and the Czech Republic's CA-805 BREN - failed to pass a three-year-long evaluation.

On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.
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