Small Arms Thread

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Oct 2014 19:19

No Sir. Never. But handled it and the SLR too.

koti · Post by **koti** » 08 Oct 2014 04:39

Ishapore Rifle clears trails?
Orders for 50,000 placed!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 635112.cms

Anyone have any picture/specs of the said rifle?

ps: don't get it from the link posted.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 08 Oct 2014 08:43

koti wrote:Ishapore Rifle clears trails?
Orders for 50,000 placed!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 635112.cms

Anyone have any picture/specs of the said rifle?

ps: don't get it from the link posted.

The pic in the article labeled AK 47 shows what looks like the HK53. Hopefully that's not it otherwise Ishapore is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Anyways, if it has actually been accepted by the Army and IAF, its good news.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 Oct 2014 09:01

^To doubt the inherent and pervasive retardedness of DDM and to even entertain the possibility of them actually showing the right pic is in itself quite foolish. You should be satisfied that they did not show the pic of a dried up cucumber.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 08 Oct 2014 11:08

^^^^^
Agree with you. Now a days these newspapers are not bothered about correct content being published. Heck there are spelling mistakes even in their headlines.

Coming to the rifle in question - though the news report is vague, reference to AK47 might mean that they are talking about 7.62X39 caliber rifles. In that case this trail would be done by MHA to be used by paramilitary forces.

There was lot of public domain information on Trichy Assualt Rile which is 7.62X39 and fires M43 round achieving 400mts brochure range. What did Ishapore and Kanpur make in that caliber? Google is not much help here as all search queries bring up Trichy Assault Rifle info only.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 08 Oct 2014 20:45

koti wrote:Ishapore Rifle clears trails?
Orders for 50,000 placed!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 635112.cms

Anyone have any picture/specs of the said rifle?

ps: don't get it from the link posted.

Check the Made in india logo on the side.

koti · Post by **koti** » 08 Oct 2014 20:50

Source?
Mogambo Khush hua

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 08 Oct 2014 21:53

There is a story behind it...when it was unveiled at defence expo unfortunately to that same defence expo the famous ak47 inventor was invited as chief guest, it told he was very upset and wanted to withdraw from the function but this particular gun was removed from the show to pacify him. Evil indoos copy cats, is what he might have murmured.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 09 Oct 2014 05:25

^^^^^
Wonder why he'd target India when Norinco and a few dozen other companies are so successful at cloning the AK that they've sold more of them than the Russians ever did.

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 09 Oct 2014 06:00

It looks better than the original. Besides, just because it looks like ak47 doesn't mean it's a clone.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Oct 2014 06:30

narendranaik wrote:It looks better than the original. Besides, just because it looks like ak47 doesn't mean it's a clone.

There were three "AKM" in competition, TAR from trichy, and two rifles "close to the original AKM" from Ishapore and Kanpur. Looks like Ishapore rifle made the cut.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Oct 2014 06:32

joygoswami wrote:
koti wrote:Ishapore Rifle clears trails?
Orders for 50,000 placed!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 635112.cms

Anyone have any picture/specs of the said rifle?

ps: don't get it from the link posted.

Check the Made in india logo on the side.

It's an airsoft gun with Made in India photoshopped on side.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 09 Oct 2014 06:40

I thought it looked very close to the Romanian WASR-10.

--Ashish.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Oct 2014 10:31

joygoswami wrote: Check the Made in india logo on the side.

Photoshop job. Someone probably photoshopped the Made in India logo, but forgot to photoshop the rest of the markings. Unless Ishapore factory did such a job of cloning like Khyber pass gunsmiths to clone all the markings of a Russian-made AK!!

Hint: Look at the markings for the different positions of the fire selector lever. Those markings are always an excellent clue of the country of origin because they are usually marked in the language of the country of the maker. In this case, the markings look like AB and OA, which are Russian markings in Cyrillic characters. In case you're wondering, they stand for ABTOMAT and ODEN (Russian for "Automatic" and "One"). Similarly, Romanian ones are marked FA and FF (short for Foc Automat and Foc cu Foc). Oddly enough, some Chinese AKs are marked with the Chinese characters 'Lian' and 'Dan', whereas some others are marked with the English letters 'L' and 'D' (to stand for 'Lian' and 'Dan').

Incidentally, INSAS markings on the selector are S and B (for Single and Burst mode).

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Oct 2014 10:59

Is there any way we can control/manage the recoil of the AK-47 so that it can not be called as a mere "spay and pray" gun? I mean some mechanical etc management system of huge recoil which will help a solider to aim and fire it better without aim going seriously bad due to recoil.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 09 Oct 2014 12:42

ArmenT wrote:
joygoswami wrote: Check the Made in india logo on the side.
Photoshop job. Someone probably photoshopped the Made in India logo, but forgot to photoshop the rest of the markings. Unless Ishapore factory did such a job of cloning like Khyber pass gunsmiths to clone all the markings of a Russian-made AK!!
.

Agreed, my sincere apologies. Seemed almost too good to be true.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Oct 2014 13:52

These 50,000 rifles are for COIN or has the army decided to go with 7.62X 39mm rounds of the AK, what about the LMG's version if that is the case? Somehow, for a regular infantry rifle we should either move to 6.5X43mm or stick to the 5.56mm. The 7.62X39 from what I have read(never fired a firearm in my life) tends to drop after 100 meters.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2014 22:18

but...

For over a decade now, the Ordnance Factory Board has been attempting to develop
an indigenous assault rifle on the lines of the AK-47. Initially, there was some
embarrassment after an ordnance factory displayed an indigenous replica of the
AK-47 at a defence expo
in Delhi. This didn't go unnoticed and Mikhail Kalashnikov, the inventor of the
world's most sold and used assault rifle that goes by his name, threatened to
file a copyright violation suit against the Indian ordnance facto ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

"Since then, our designers have been attempting to develop an assault rifle,
using the AK-47 as a model but without replicating any of its mechanism.

wow! exact definition of cloning! there can be IPRs on look and feel too

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2014 22:22

AK47 has been cloned worldwide, so much so that the original design has become Gareeb Ki Lugaai Sabki bhojaai.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2014 22:44

prostitution is illegal in many countries.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 10 Oct 2014 07:28

Yagnasri wrote:Is there any way we can control/manage the recoil of the AK-47 so that it can not be called as a mere "spay and pray" gun? I mean some mechanical etc management system of huge recoil which will help a solider to aim and fire it better without aim going seriously bad due to recoil.

Quite a few options:

1. Reduce cartridge and bullet size to reduce felt recoil -- This was actually done by the Russians with the AK-74, which uses a 5.45x39 mm. cartridge instead of the AK-47's 7.62x39 mm. cartridge. On the other hand, it reduces range of the rifle.

2. AK-47 tends to climb when fired in auto, because of the way the stock and handles are positioned. One way to handle that is to install a compensator (the AKM and other rifles in the AK family after the AKM have this). See this article for the physics behind this and how the compensator works. Another way to reduce muzzle climb is to design it as a straight line layout (which is what MG42, M16 family, SIG 510 etc. do. Even latest AK family member (AK-12) and some others based on AK mechanism such as Valmet and Galil do this). See this page for more details about how this works.

3. Change how the mechanism works. AK family uses the long stroke piston system, same as the M1 Garand and Bren. Basically, some of the gas from firing a cartridge is tapped from the barrel and drives a piston and the other end of the piston pushes the bolt carrier and bolt all the way back. The advantages of this are a simpler mechanism and the interior parts stay cleaner for a lot longer. However, by its very nature, there's a relatively heavy piece of metal (the piston) moving back and forth above the barrel, which causes the center of balance to be affected by its movement, especially when it is moving back and forth rapidly when firing in automatic. Direct gas impingement system has some of the gas piped back directly to the bolt carrier. Therefore there is no mass of piston moving back and forth and therefore easier to keep pointed on the target + it is lighter as well. On the other hand though, you have hot gases being directly piped back to the bolt carrier, which can get dirty from soot and the heat can cause lubricant to evaporate as well, which means a bit more cleaning and oiling for the weapon. M16 family is one of the more famous users of direct gas impingement system.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Oct 2014 11:51

Competing firearms for New Assault rifle for Russian Armed Forces

AK-12

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6214/948 ... 01a5cb_XXL
http://s019.radikal.ru/i627/1309/38/62adad45d8ac.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4808/948 ... 02b896_XXL

A-545 ( based on AEK-971 )

https://2ch.hk/w/src/161850/1408219897626.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/15/54/62/79/a-54510.jpg

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 10 Oct 2014 11:59

SaiK wrote:prostitution is illegal in many countries.

Arre bhai, the saying is not used in that sense always. Almost every word in Indian languages can be used with multiple meanings. That is the structure of things here.

You remember the interaction between Joey & Rachel of Friends.

Joey : "Yep – there's always room for jello!”
Rachel : “Joey how do you make that dirty?”
Joey : “Oh it's easy, I can do it with anything. Watch uh…grandma's chicken salad!”

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Oct 2014 20:21

Insas Excalibur spotted.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Oct 2014 20:33

SaiK wrote:but...
For over a decade now, the Ordnance Factory Board has been attempting to develop
an indigenous assault rifle on the lines of the AK-47. Initially, there was some
embarrassment after an ordnance factory displayed an indigenous replica of the
AK-47 at a defence expo
in Delhi. This didn't go unnoticed and Mikhail Kalashnikov, the inventor of the
world's most sold and used assault rifle that goes by his name, threatened to
file a copyright violation suit against the Indian ordnance facto ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

"Since then, our designers have been attempting to develop an assault rifle,
using the AK-47 as a model but without replicating any of its mechanism.

wow! exact definition of cloning! there can be IPRs on look and feel too

IPR are usually valid only for a limited period of time. AK-47 was conceived in the late 40s. That would make it more than 70-year-old design. No IPR has that long of a protection AFAIK.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Oct 2014 22:45

That article from Saik ji is good from another perspective, it mentions there was a face-off between the Trichy, Kanpur and Ishapore designs earlier this year and the best design was from Ishapore. Of course, I never expected Ishapore to win but it is a very good sign

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Oct 2014 07:28

As per Saurav Jha, INSAS Excalibur is making a comeback.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/525359107688366080

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Nov 2014 21:47

AK-12 Trail

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 06 Dec 2014 07:03

‘Peace Weapon’ Kalashnikov proposes to set up plant in Gandhi’s Gujarat

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 12 Dec 2014 04:56

More on the AK re-branding exercise

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/12/09 ... 40219.html

(Look for the infographic on AK models )

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Dec 2014 21:42

Russian Army Accepts Both AK-12 And AEK-971

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 27 Dec 2014 15:44

Kakkaji wrote:‘Peace Weapon’ Kalashnikov proposes to set up plant in Gandhi’s Gujarat

This concept of weapons industry being in contradiction with the ethos of certain community or region needs to be curtailed. MIC is an essential part of any successful country. NaMo had started this in a small step by performing Shastra pooja.

There is an incident involving Late Gp. Captain Kapil Bhargava with the then President. Also points to a similar mental block against martial traditions.

Is the thread started by Shivji about this still available somewhere?

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 28 Dec 2014 23:12

Not sure if posted before but worth watching to see weapons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZVdBAMTBY

Part II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olUC3ttsrSk

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 01 Jan 2015 15:06

Meanwhile the Atlantic magazine has published an article criticising the US army for equipping the US Infantry with poor quality M4 rifles which the author claims is inferior to AK 47. See the link below.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... _page=true
Hope the case with the Indian army is different.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jan 2015 15:26

What about IAs requirement for new rifle??? No news also. Hope it is going to me both design and "make in India"

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Jan 2015 10:52

<See pictures in the SF thread> But seems like the entire FN Family (2000 / P90 / SCAR) is now with the SG

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 05 Jan 2015 22:46

which gun?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jan 2015 06:19

A Sharma wrote:which gun?

SIG 553.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Jan 2015 06:25

rkhanna wrote:<See pictures in the SF thread> But seems like the entire FN Family (2000 / P90 / SCAR) is now with the SG

And also Fn five-seven pistol. ARDE should make a similar pistol in 5.56x30mm to go along with Milap/MSMC/JVPC.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Jan 2015 16:09

The MCIWS will be ready for trials in six to eight months according to this report.

India-Made Automatic Rifle Production Stuck in Red Tape

NEW DELHI: A Parliamentary panel recently wondered why India has not been able to produce a world-class automatic rifle but it appears that an advanced version of this has already been developed but is yet to see action as it is tangled in bureaucratic red tape.

Parliament's Standing Committee on defence, in a report tabled in the winter session last month, said it was "shocking that even 53 years of expertise has not enabled Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a world class basic product like a rifle".

However, an advanced, deadlier version of the 5.56 mm INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifle, which has a greater kill capacity, has already been developed by the DRDO but has not been inducted by the Indian Army as there are no official records of a demand being made for it, an official explained.

"When the INSAS rifle was initially designed, the army wanted rifles with a lower kill capability. Based on that demand the 5.56 mm rifle was designed," a DRDO official told IANS, speaking on condition of anonymity.

INSAS is a family of infantry weapons consisting of an assault rifle, a light machine gun and a carbine - all of the same calibre.

The official said the first demand for a smaller calibre rifle came in 1982, when the army wanted to replace the 7.62 mm SLR (self-loading rifle) that had been in use for over 30 years.

The army, said the official, then wanted a rifle that would de-capacitate a solider instead of killing him.

"A low killing capacity made sense because in war, if you kill a soldier you have deactivated only one person. But if a solider is injured, at least two other soldiers will come to his aid and thus three of the enemy will be deactivated," the official said.

The DRDO developed the first prototype of the rifle in 1986. It was much lighter at 4.2 kg than the 7.62 mm SLR that weighed 5.7 kg, had a shorter barrel and could fire a three-bullet burst at a time compared to just one by the SLR.

The rifle was inducted into service in the mid-1990s after replacing the 7.62 mm SLR.

The rifle was used in the Kargil war but was prone to malfunctioning in the cold Himalayan conditions, getting jammed and its polymer magazine cracking.

As the army started getting involved in close combat with terrorists and the requirement changed to guns with a higher kill capacity, the official said, the army sought an update around three years ago.

"With the army now being involved in face-to-face fighting with terrorists, who are generally armed with AK-47 rifles, a high kill capacity is needed. The army asked DRDO to design a rifle to kill, and the enthusiastic scientists went on to modify the INSAS," the official said.

He explained that the longer barrel would give the bullet higher speed and greater power of impact.

"However, by the time the product was ready, and we approached the army around the end of 2013, we were told no such requisition was officially given," the official said.

The official also defended the INSAS, claiming that the problems encountered during the Kargil war were manufacturing issues - but agreed that the rifle is now outdated and upgrades are needed.

"The problems that came up during the Kargil war were quality related, and for that the ordinance factory (manufacturing it) is responsible. However the fact remains that the INSAS technology is now very old and upgradation is needed," he said.

However, the upgrades of the INSAS, or a new rifle can happen only if army asks for it.

"DRDO is working on other small calibre weapons, but a new rifle can be designed only when the army asks for it".

Another DRDO scientist cited lack of working in close collaboration as the reason for the shortcomings in the delivery.

"Between the time when we get a request and the time the product is ready after initial testing, the requirements change. If the army and DRDO work together, and we are updated about the change in requirements, the product can be simultaneously upgraded," the official told IANS.

"For example India is now almost self-sufficient in radars because the navy and DRDO worked very closely on it," he added.

Another DRDO official, meanwhile, added that other weapons and weapons system are being worked on, including a Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) or Modern Sub-Machine Carbine (MSMC) user trials of which are now underway.

Another rifle under production is a Multi-Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) with three 5.56 mm, 6.8mm and 7.62 mm barrels.

"A multi calibre weapon is also being worked on, which will have three barrels that can be changed within minutes, giving soldiers wider options," said the official. This rifle is expected to be ready for in-house trials by DRDO in another six-eight months.