Small Arms Thread

Locked
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

^^^
I tend to not to get personal about looks and stuff because it is all in the eye of the beholder. Besides, even a feminine looking dude with a weapon can be very effective.

On the other hand, there are some issues with the way that the Chinese soldier is holding his weapon. Quiz: can you point them out?

Hint one: The position that they are both holding their rifles is the kneeling stance. Look at the elbows of the two soldiers and see if you can figure out what's incorrect.

Hint two: Look at where the Chinese soldier's eye and nose are right behind the carrying handle. Now consider Newton's third law of motion and explain what happens if the trigger is pulled.

Post yer answers below.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

Elbow is almost on thigh ? This is the only thing that I can think of.

ArmenT, I think the strange appearance of Chinese soldier is due to brushing up of photo. Making fun of people on so called manliness is not something that I approve of either
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by negi »

I don't see anything wrong in particular with Chinese soldiers stance he is holding a much lighter weapon than the Indian soldier, position of the left arm will be governed by how long and heavy the weapon is , important thing is if he is comfortable with that stance or not. From this perspective one could say that may be he is too close to the iron sight but that is again something which I would rule out, these guys train with guns day in and day out they are pretty much extensions of their limbs and it comes to them as a second nature.
Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gurneesh »

Possible cheap psyops by the Chinese...

Image

Modern rifle is shown from the Chinese side and what looks like a 303 is shown from Indian side !

Source (posted on DFI) @1:25 mins:

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by jamwal »

Negi
Image

:D

Yeah, yeah

It;s just photo ops. I get it.


Gurneesh
Non-cheeni rifle is not 303, it's a musket from 18th century.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by nachiket »

ArmenT wrote: On the other hand, there are some issues with the way that the Chinese soldier is holding his weapon. Quiz: can you point them out?

Hint one: The position that they are both holding their rifles is the kneeling stance. Look at the elbows of the two soldiers and see if you can figure out what's incorrect.
Taking a guess here. The knee needs to be right below the gun. The Chinese soldier's knee is off to the left, so his forearm is not straight but tilted to the side. But I'm not sure if this would be a big issue.
Hint two: Look at where the Chinese soldier's eye and nose are right behind the carrying handle. Now consider Newton's third law of motion and explain what happens if the trigger is pulled.

Post yer answers below.
They are too close to the sights. He needs to keep some space for recoil.
ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ashish raval »

^^ Chicoms dont know that 303 has seen two world wars and countless hand-to-hand combats from Japan to Deserts of Sahara. While their supa-dupa machine gun is yet to produce any results that they have won convincingly ! lol :mrgreen: ask Talibunnies who can withstand atleast 10 rounds of AK-56 while 2 rounds of 303 are good enough to let them meet their hoors in jannat.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Indranil »

I think we are being oversensitive with this modern vs 303 thing. hey just wanted to show two different kind of rifles. But that is just me.

Anyways, let us return to the discussion of arms here, not insignia. Please continue the discussion on correct posture of firing the arms.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Indranil »

ArmenT wrote:^^^
I tend to not to get personal about looks and stuff because it is all in the eye of the beholder. Besides, even a feminine looking dude with a weapon can be very effective.

On the other hand, there are some issues with the way that the Chinese soldier is holding his weapon. Quiz: can you point them out?

Hint one: The position that they are both holding their rifles is the kneeling stance. Look at the elbows of the two soldiers and see if you can figure out what's incorrect.

Hint two: Look at where the Chinese soldier's eye and nose are right behind the carrying handle. Now consider Newton's third law of motion and explain what happens if the trigger is pulled.

Post yer answers below.
Thanks for the enlightenment. I will add one more. Both should go down lower with their butts, allowing the left thigh to be inclined and the left knee to project out a little more so as to produce the base of the left arm.
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Ok, I'll give the answers.

1. If you look at this article on the kneeling stance and look at the picture there and read the text:
Note how the rifleman positions his left elbow-joint just ahead of his left knee, so that the muscle of the left upper arm is in contact with the knee. The left elbow joint should NOT rest on the left knee because the bone to bone contact causes more wobbles.
Now look at the picture again and watch their elbows. SDRE has the position perfect, the other gent, not so much.

2. As some of you have pointed out, his face is pretty darn close to the handle/rear sight, practically pressed against it too. If the trigger is pulled, there will be a recoil per Newton's third law of motion. Guess which one of those two soldiers is going to receive a not-so-gentle reminder of Newton's third law to the eye socket and nose area.

3. Forgot to mention this one earlier, but notice how the strap is wrapped around the guy's neck instead of around the body. Almost like he was kneeling down first and someone came and placed the rifle in his hands.

I'm guessing that perhaps the Chinese gent might be a model brought in for photo-ops and such. They've done this in the past where they bring a couple of models along with the actual forces, for the close-up pictures only.
Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3800
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Paul »

Quick question, has the MSMC passed the user trials with the IA?

Per Wiki, it has passed the tests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_ ... ndian_Army
SAF Carbine 1A Sub-machine gun 9mm Parabellum India
United Kingdom Indian made Sterling L2A1 SMG. - To be replaced by the MSMC.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

Rumor has it that it did pass.
IA could be adopting the MSMC and the IN Amogh.
But this is from a decent source from another forum, I don't have any links though.
RKumar

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by RKumar »

koti sir if your news is true, it is a big psychological boost for us as these weapons are more visible to common people and services. It will change the mind set of newly recruit personal of the services and put faith in local systems.

DRDO and associated labs have developed their second generation of small arms. Let me compare it to Agni-5 success. I hold back my congratulations till this news is public 8)
Last edited by RKumar on 01 Dec 2013 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
nash
BRFite
Posts: 946
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by nash »

any news on multi-caliber rifle design by ARDE

http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... rototyping

it should be tested by now...
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2013/NL_Nov_2013_web.pdf

Says successful user trials of JVPC (the MSMC)
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

Armament Research and Development
Establishment (ARDE), Pune, celebrated its 54th
raising day in a grand manner on 1 September 2013.
Shri Anil M Datar, OS and Director, ARDE, inaugurated
the function and took an overview of successes and
shortcomings of ARDE in the previous year.
Dr Datar expressed satisfaction on the
successful user trials of Joint Venture Protective
Carbine (JVPC), completion of Influence
Mine Mark II,
Pinaka
Mark II achieving
60 km range, trials of
Pinaka
ET Fuze from FUCHS
and SASU, trials of
Pinaka
Canon Launch Guided
Missile (CLGM), and the transfer of technology of
Pinaka
MBRLS. On the occasion, DRDO laboratory-
level, armament, and cash awards were given to the
meritorious employees.
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

koti wrote: IA could be adopting the MSMC and the IN Amogh.
But this is from a decent source from another forum, I don't have any links though.
Per the Hindu, a few thousand AMOGH rifles were picked up by Paramilitary and Indian Navy forces.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 391733.ece

However, the article doesn't state exactly how many were sold and also contains a fair amount of BS.
While traditionally the length of the cartridge is 45 mm, this one is 30 mm long.
....
“A few thousand of these rifles have been taken by units in the paramilitary forces and the Indian Navy. But now, we are looking for demand from abroad for this latest carbine,” Deepak Gupta of the OFB told The Hindu . He said OFB was the first in the world to develop a 30 mm cartridge in the 5.56 calibre. “Even NATO forces use the 45 mm cartridge.”
First, the reason why OFB had to develop a special 5.56x30 mm. cartridge is because they couldn't get it to fire the (originally planned) 5.56x45 mm. cartridge that the rest of the INSAS family uses, without a lot of flash. Hence, they were forced to shorten the cartridge and reduce its power a bit. The reason that NATO uses 5.56x45 mm. cartridges is because it is their standard cartridge and the same cartridge is used for their assault rifles, LMGs and carbines.

Also, OFB is the only organization in the world that makes the 5.56x30 mm. cartridge, so it is going to be difficult to find "demand from abroad" as he puts it, because potential buyers may be put off by the non-standard cartridge.
pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by pragnya »

koti wrote:Rumor has it that it did pass.
IA could be adopting the MSMC and the IN Amogh.
But this is from a decent source from another forum, I don't have any links though.
Amogh which was an OFB effort did not find favour with IA. even paramilitary also was not enthused by it as of may 2011. however it seems Amogh may have been fine tuned and the paramilitary may have accepted if one goes by the Hindu report.

as to the DRDO-OFB effort carbine called Milap it almost seemed IA would induct them but did not happen for whatever reasons and in the meanwhile JVPC has come into the picture which has seen successful trials as per DRDO NL which Karan linked. seems it is an improved version of Milap based on IA inputs. hope this one is inducted pronto as IA has been planning the carbines for some time now.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

pragnya wrote:as to the DRDO-OFB effort carbine called Milap it almost seemed IA would induct them but did not happen for whatever reasons and in the meanwhile JVPC has come into the picture which has seen successful trials as per DRDO NL which Karan linked. seems it is an improved version of Milap based on IA inputs. hope this one is inducted pronto as IA has been planning the carbines for some time now.
There seems to be some confusion here. Kalantak(Rejected) and Milap(?) are for Carbine role, MSMC IMO is for SMG role.
MSMC is in the final phases of the trails and should be finished by this month.

Links: Link1 Link2

Any specifications of Milap? Its caliber or design?
I think Zittara is a better choice as it can act as both a carbine and an SMG with multiple calibers. I am not sure how much expensive it is, but I think they shouldn't be any more expensive then the 700 euro a piece MX4s of which we imported about 17000.
Last edited by koti on 02 Dec 2013 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

ArmenT wrote: First, the reason why OFB had to develop a special 5.56x30 mm. cartridge is because they couldn't get it to fire the (originally planned) 5.56x45 mm. cartridge that the rest of the INSAS family uses, without a lot of flash. Hence, they were forced to shorten the cartridge and reduce its power a bit.
I think this issue was resolved by 2007ish with the Kalantak, which too was rejected by IA. IMO the DRDO MSMC and 5.56x30 round are to enhance the range, accuracy and penetration capacity of the 9mm gun category.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

Image
Can anyone ID the sniper rifle? Is it the locally developed one we saw a few years earlier?
pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by pragnya »

koti wrote:There seems to be some confusion here. Kalantak(Rejected) and Milap(?) are for Carbine role, MSMC IMO is for SMG role.
MSMC is in the final phases of the trails and should be finished by this month.

Links: Link1 Link2

Any specifications of Milap? Its caliber or design?
I think Zittara is a better choice as it can act as both a carbine and an SMG with multiple calibers. I am not sure how much expensive it is, but I think they shouldn't be any more expensive then the 700 euro a piece MX4s of which we imported about 17000.
Koti,

seems to me that Milap & JVPC are one and the same. IMO it is possible the name Milap may have been used intially or may have been a media creation as DRDO has always said it as MSMC. when it seemed it was being inducted by IA in 2011, it may actually have been trialled, issues fixed and improvements made with IA inputs and participation and is successful now.

specs for JVPC -

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yQj06vPT7z0/T ... JVPC-1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9TLz77DHE4Q/T ... JVPC-3.jpg

as you can see it is 5.56x30mm same as AMOGH

it must be IA reqt regards the caliber for CQB.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

MSMC=Milap=JVPC. It is a very good carbine which is better, more accurate, more lethal, lighter, longer range, has more penetration than any 9mm carbine out there. But the induction of this carbine has been delayed by repeated trials while Rs. 1000 crore worth of foreign junk 9mm carbines have been imported which are 10x the price of AKM, 4x the price of INSAS and 2x the price of JVPC. IIRC injured NSG commandoes in Mumbai attacks made comments in TV interviews that 9mm is an ineffective caliber for terrorist attacks. But import jindabad.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

Vic sab, do you have any numbers on the cost of OFB made Zittara?
And small nitpicking... The MX4 was for BSF, I don't think it has to do anything with IA.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

zittrar is Tavor with no value addition by OFB. I know mx4, mp5 imports are by home ministry.
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

vic wrote:IIRC injured NSG commandoes in Mumbai attacks made comments in TV interviews that 9mm is an ineffective caliber for terrorist attacks. But import jindabad.
Odd comment, considering that 9x19 mm. parabellum is the most-used military handgun cartridge in the world. Also, the MP-5, which uses this cartridge, sees service in 40+ countries military forces around the world, as well as numerous police and SWAT teams. Not bad for a cartridge that was developed over 110 years ago.

Of course, latest NATO requirements want something more powerful against modern body armors (which is why FN made 5.7x28mm.), but the 9x19 mm. isn't going away any time soon.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

I stand by my comment that in Indian context 9x19 caliber is useless against terrorist, maoists and for military action. It is only useful for last ditch self defense or police action against unarmed amateur civilian criminals ( or other limited niche areas) There is no reason to import Rs 1000 crore worth of junk and INSAS or even AKs would have served this requirement better. 9x19 mm carbine made sense when main weapon was 7.62x51 caliber but with 5.56x45 caliber coming into vogue, the carbines have also shifted to the said caliber like M4.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

ArmenT wrote:
vic wrote:IIRC injured NSG commandoes in Mumbai attacks made comments in TV interviews that 9mm is an ineffective caliber for terrorist attacks. But import jindabad.
Odd comment, considering that 9x19 mm. parabellum is the most-used military handgun cartridge in the world. Also, the MP-5, which uses this cartridge, sees service in 40+ countries military forces around the world, as well as numerous police and SWAT teams. Not bad for a cartridge that was developed over 110 years ago.

Of course, latest NATO requirements want something more powerful against modern body armors (which is why FN made 5.7x28mm.), but the 9x19 mm. isn't going away any time soon.
By the same standard, NATO adopted 5.56mm as the standard catridge, but its shortcomings are more and more apparent in several conflicts, with folks preferring to move back to 7.62 but facing organizational inertia plus the cost challenges

Vic, do you have a link for any of those reports? Sounds interesting.
member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_20453 »

I think the 9mm MP-5s, UZIs and now the MX4s should be used only be QRT teams in regular police units and may be the NCC. To me the BSF, NSG or any other Paramilitary unit deploying the 9mm is a silly choice to say the least. NSG, IA, IAF and IN SF units should move on to the KRISS .45 ACP for CQB needs, the ideal knockout weapon.

http://www.kriss-arms.com/index.php
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

MSMC or JVPC

Image

Specs
http://i.imgur.com/jMPGlbk.jpg

Writeup on the ammo and gun based on similar efforts ww.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... mmunition/
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

Bullet has steel insert for better penetration, so the above report of the bullet being inferior based on previous Colt Mars is incorrect.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/284/arde ... -army.html
Since the soft-body armour made the erstwhile 9 mm carbine ineffective, the development of the 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition was initiated. The aim was to defeat enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 metres. The ammunition for MSMC was of a conventional type with the bullet cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to a 9 mm round. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power and it enhanced the ammunition performance to a level superior than that of its contemporaries. Other features incorporated earlier in the 5.56 mm MSMC include a pistol grip, which allows single-hand firing capability, magazine feeding through pistol grip, a retractable butt for better stability while firing, ambidextrous cocking, fire selector to suit left and right hand firers and a three-point sling for better carrying and maneuverability.
Trials were with Army as of March 2013, for one year. In November, ARDE said successful. So these trials were with IA and not paramil.
http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... for%20Army

Aim was 99.7 percent reliability per 2011 report. Extensive trials - The first trial of the prototype was held in 2006, then 2007-end and the last one was in January 2009.)
http://stratodefense.blogspot.in/2009/1 ... -army.html

If this makes it to the IA as standard PDW for officers, its a huge win for India.
koti
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by koti »

Better penetration is not the same as better stopping power. The cartridge is ideal for COIN, and other CQB scenarios but for QRT type situations, it would call for a higher caliber round.

Maybe like this?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

At 200m and below, it should have decent stopping power. If IA inducts it, we'll know.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Sagar G »

ArmenT wrote:First, the reason why OFB had to develop a special 5.56x30 mm. cartridge is because they couldn't get it to fire the (originally planned) 5.56x45 mm. cartridge that the rest of the INSAS family uses, without a lot of flash. Hence, they were forced to shorten the cartridge and reduce its power a bit.
Are you sure about this ??? IIRC the reason for developing this cartridge was that the soldier could carry more of them since being lighter. The cartridge was developed by DRDO, OFB is the production agency.
ArmenT wrote:Also, OFB is the only organization in the world that makes the 5.56x30 mm. cartridge, so it is going to be difficult to find "demand from abroad" as he puts it, because potential buyers may be put off by the non-standard cartridge.
ToT can be offered.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vic »

9x19 is poor in both penetration and stopping power.
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:First, the reason why OFB had to develop a special 5.56x30 mm. cartridge is because they couldn't get it to fire the (originally planned) 5.56x45 mm. cartridge that the rest of the INSAS family uses, without a lot of flash. Hence, they were forced to shorten the cartridge and reduce its power a bit.
Are you sure about this ??? IIRC the reason for developing this cartridge was that the soldier could carry more of them since being lighter. The cartridge was developed by DRDO, OFB is the production agency.
IA's requirement was for the infantry rifle and the carbine to both fire the 5.56x45 mm. cartridge for commonality reasons. DRDO managed to make the LMG and infantry rifle variants of the INSAS, but failed to deliver a carbine variant that uses this cartridge. The reasons for the failure are pretty well documented and even DRDO acknowledged them (one of the main problems was that the propellant was not completely burning inside the barrel and caused excessive flash and control issues). After waiting around for many years for a solution, IA finally went and purchased the M4A1 carbine, which meets the requirements. Meanwhile, DRDO never got the flash issue solved with 5.56x45 mm., so as a workaround, they reduced the size of the cartridge and its power as well and came up with 5.56x30 mm. cartridge, which burns completely inside the barrel and solves the problem. All that business about soldiers being able to carry more was brought up after the fact.

As for the effectiveness of the MSMC carbine using the 5.56x30 mm. cartridge, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an official DRDO ballistics spec that I know of, so the only figures we can go by is from this translated Chinese page that koti posted above:
link here

According to the link above, it says that the MSMC bullet weighs 2.6 grams and comes out the muzzle at 650 m/sec. Therefore, according to the laws of physics, we calculate that the momentum transferred by the MSMC bullet = 1.69 kg-m/sec and kinetic energy = 549.25 Joules (If anyone has any other official figures for velocity and bullet mass, please post a link)

By contrast, a bullet coming out of an M4A1 carbine weighs about 4 gm. and comes out of the muzzle at around 880 m/sec. Therefore, momentum transferred by this bullet = 3.52 kg-m/sec and kinetic energy = 1548.8 J

Therefore, we see that the M4A1 bullet transfers over 2x the momentum of a bullet coming out of MSMC and about 2.8x the kinetic energy.

For the record, the 9x19 mm. cartridge bullet weighs around 7.45 to 8.04 grams depending on cartridge type and comes out of a sterling submachine gun at around 380 meters/sec (1250 feet/sec), at least the L2A1 variant used by IA. Using these numbers (assuming lightest bullet of 7.45 gm.), we calculate the momentum of this bullet = 2.831 kg-m/sec and kinetic energy = 570.375 J. So we see that that the 9x19 mm. bullet has momentum and KE between the 5.56x30 mm. and 5.56x45 mm. bullets (although the KE is only slightly higher than the 5.56x30)

However, this doesn't necessarily tell the entire story. One of the interesting things about the bullet used in the NATO round (SS-109) is that if it travels above a certain velocity (2500 feet/sec or 760 m/sec), it tends to fragment upon striking a soft body and produces a wound much larger than the diameter of the bullet. If it is travelling slower than this, the bullet doesn't reliably fragment and may produce a much smaller wound (Also, the bullet needs to travel a few inches inside a soft body before it will start to fragment, therefore a hit to the arm may not cause fragmentation, whereas a hit to the body may do so). This is why M4A1 is a much more effective man-stopper at < 100 meter ranges than > 100 meter ranges, since the bullet velocity drops below the reliable fragmentation velocity after about 100 meters travel. Note that the same bullet fired out of an M16 has better performance, since the M16 has a longer barrel and therefore, the bullet comes out of it faster and stays above the frag. velocity for about 200 meters or so.

Hardness of the bullet tip is also another factor. The NATO bullet has a steel tip and was originally designed to go through sov. bloc steel helmet of the 1970s era at 600 meters range. Because of this requirement, the NATO bullet is less prone to fragmentation. The older US M193 cartridge bullet fragments better, but doesn't penetrate as well.

Bullet profile and type (full metal jacket, hollow point, tungsten core, copper jacket, hardened brass etc.) also has an effect on wounding performance.

The US military is developing newer bullets for 5.56x45 mm. cartridges, such as Mk262, Mk318, and M855A1, where the bullets fragment at lower velocities, but have hardened brass rears to penetrate hard targets as well. These newer bullets have shown much better performance at longer ranges than the NATO SS109 and can penetrate harder body armors as well.

If anyone has info about the 5.56x30 mm. bullet's fragmentation velocities and wounding performance, please to post here. Right now, the only figures we can compare against the other carbines, are the bullet momentum and kinetic energy values and these don't necessarily indicate the true performance (djinn-fizziks onlee :)).

Whether the MSMC will augment or replace the sterling or the M4A1 in IA's service, only time can tell. Perhaps it may meet the requirements for something that they need, so who knows.
Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:Also, OFB is the only organization in the world that makes the 5.56x30 mm. cartridge, so it is going to be difficult to find "demand from abroad" as he puts it, because potential buyers may be put off by the non-standard cartridge.
ToT can be offered.
Sure, ToT might be a good incentive, but please turn off jingo mode for a second and imagine you're a General from the Republic of Zangaro, who has to make a purchasing decision. Would you:
(a) go for a carbine that uses the same ammo as your existing rifles.
(b) go for a carbine that uses a different ammunition caliber, knowing that you need to build your own factory to manufacture the ammo and the ammo cannot be used by anything else.

Given these two choices, the only reasons to go for option (b) are if the costs are very much worth it (e.g. OFB builds the factory in Zangaro for free and the carbines are cheaper than anyone else), or there is a very good military reason to use this different caliber (e.g. does it perform better than your other options against body armor), or if you've been bribed by OFB! And we haven't even talked about other considerations like reliability and ease of maintenance issues either.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Sagar G »

ArmenT wrote:IA's requirement was for the infantry rifle and the carbine to both fire the 5.56x45 mm.......
I think there is still some ambiguity regarding the intended role of MSMC so let's see what DRDO has to say about it, from techfocus dec 2006 pg. no. 7
5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine and Ammunition

Introduction of soft-body armour has rendered 9 mm carbine, operational with Indian Army, ineffective. DRDO has developed a 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition aimed at defeating enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 m.

The 5.56 mm MSMC is unique in its category with features like pistol grip located at CG to achieve single-hand firing capability; magazine feeding through pistol grip; retractable butt for better stability while firing; ambidextrous cocking; fire selector to suit left and right hand firers; and a three-point sling for better carrying and manoeuverability. The weapon is lightweight, compact, robust and has proved highly accurate and reliable during user trials.

The ammunition for MSMC is of conventional type. The bullet is cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to 9 mm. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power. The performance of this ammunition, in respect of remaining energy at various ranges, vis-à-vis contemporary ammunitions developed in the world, is better. Low power ammunition technology in the 5.56 mm caliber has been developed for the first time in India.

Technologies developed for the MSMC include: A unique semi bull-pup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism, and retention of butt fitted in housing configuration evolved and tested to user satisfaction; noise-reduction technology using CFD analysis for development of silencers; molding of high strength engineering plastic to manufacture components with integral features; reflex sight and passive night sight; and integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle (CQB).


It's meant for CQB and to penetrate soft body armour at 200 m range, nothing more nothing less. Coming to the flash issue and my doubt regarding DRDO not being able to solve it I searched a bit and found this article from thefirearm blog which says
The MARS cartridge/rifle was able to achieve similar ballistics as a ultra-short barreled 5.56x45mm NATO rifle (I use the term rifle loosely, sub-carbine is more correct), but with less muzzle flash, noise and weight. The Indians went with the 5.56x30mm over the 5.56x45mm for these exact same reasons as Colt.
So the "problem" isn't unique to us but universal and seems like there is a limit to how much you can shorten the barrel length before the muzzle flash becomes an issue. So I think we can safely estimate that the selection of 5.56x30mm wasn't a knee jerk reaction to the alleged inability of DRDO to solve the problem. IA would have surely wanted it to fire the 5.56x45mm round for the sake of commonality and DRDO would have demonstrated it to them and when IA saw the "issue" with there own eyes they went with what was offered by DRDO. DDM reported it as failed torsion bar of Arjun and rest is history......

Now a bit about the ammo data, here's an ARDE poster which shows the same data that you have used for the calculations. The link is haraam though.

The comparison with M4A1 carbine isn't exactly == since it fires the 5.56x45mm and its barrel length is also more (14.5 in.) as compared to 11.8 in. of MSMC and an altogether different round. But it can be compared with the MARS rifle which had the same barrel lt. and cartridge. There is link for the patent filed for that in the firearm blog you can download and read it, I have taken a quick look at it and it has some interesting data given in it about enemy engagement and more. The claim for the rifle was (from the patent application),
Indeed, the mini assault rifle system (MARS) of the invention is a new class of Weapon that Will provide a personal defense Weapon system for self defense as Well as for emergency force protection or close quarters combat. This Weapon Would obsolete 9mm pistols and submachine guns among the military, special police, and security forces. It is envisioned to replace 80% of the pistols, all submachine guns, and 20% of the rifles and carbines in current inventories. The MARS Weapon and ammunition is designed to overmatch threat Weapons in speed and accuracy in the range of 0-300 meters, enhance lethality over the 9mm and 5.7mm Weapons, have an increased capability for aimed automatic fire, and be lighter than current submachine guns.
Though MARS fired the round at 2600 fps (792.48 m/s) as compared to 650 m/s for MSMC. So does this mean that MSMC isn't as effective as claimed to be ??? I don't think so since it has recently been confirmed by multiple sources that it went successful user trials and if it wasn't doing what was being claimed then there wouldn't have been any such news like (from DRDO Newsletter Nov. 2013 pg.3)
Dr Datar expressed satisfaction on the successful user trials of Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC)
There is a good chance that once this weapon gets inducted DRDO might go in to increase the muzzle velocity of the cartridge to make it more lethal than it already is or such a program is already in works.=

For the rest of the bullet data that you are looking for I don't think we will get to have a look at it in the near future but going by all indications MSMC is a good carbine.
ArmenT wrote:Sure, ToT might be a good incentive, but please turn off jingo mode for a second and imagine you're a General from the Republic of Zangaro, who has to make a purchasing decision. Would you:
(a) go for a carbine that uses the same ammo as your existing rifles.
(b) go for a carbine that uses a different ammunition caliber, knowing that you need to build your own factory to manufacture the ammo and the ammo cannot be used by anything else.

Given these two choices, the only reasons to go for option (b) are if the costs are very much worth it (e.g. OFB builds the factory in Zangaro for free and the carbines are cheaper than anyone else), or there is a very good military reason to use this different caliber (e.g. does it perform better than your other options against body armor), or if you've been bribed by OFB! And we haven't even talked about other considerations like reliability and ease of maintenance issues either.
I am not in my jingo mode but thinking rationally about MSMC. First we have to see that it has to be inducted in large quantities with our forces and made sure that they love the weapon system. Once it is successful in our land, since our forces are engaged in the biggest COIN operation in the world that would be a good selling point in itself. Defence is already a pretty grey area so by hook or crook we have to sell our weapon systems in the world market which will buy us leverage in international stage as well. The ToT offer would be for the tough bargaining customers, the General in Republic of Zangaro would fall in line much more cheaply.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Karan M »

A big issue is reliability. The M4A1 is apparently jamming a lot in Indian conditions and is hence liable to be chucked.

MSMC if its more reliable than the Sterling and has better performance, may be good enough to get the job done and hence accepted by IA, even if its ammo is not the best there is.

The grey area there is OFB. Thanks to Antony's only DPSUs can be production agencies line, this cannot be made by L&T or M&M. I confess I would have been happier if they made it.
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Sagar G wrote: So the "problem" isn't unique to us but universal and seems like there is a limit to how much you can shorten the barrel length before the muzzle flash becomes an issue. So I think we can safely estimate that the selection of 5.56x30mm wasn't a knee jerk reaction to the alleged inability of DRDO to solve the problem. IA would have surely wanted it to fire the 5.56x45mm round for the sake of commonality and DRDO would have demonstrated it to them and when IA saw the "issue" with there own eyes they went with what was offered by DRDO. DDM reported it as failed torsion bar of Arjun and rest is history......
...
The MARS cartridge/rifle was able to achieve similar ballistics as a ultra-short barreled 5.56x45mm NATO rifle (I use the term rifle loosely, sub-carbine is more correct), but with less muzzle flash, noise and weight. The Indians went with the 5.56x30mm over the 5.56x45mm for these exact same reasons as Colt.
Actually, the weapon that DRDO presented as the carbine version (the one that failed the test) has a 14.5" barrel, same length as the M4A1 -- specs are available on OFB's website. However, your point taken that MSMC is a different class of firearm, not to be compared to INSAS family.

Also, I highlighted the words "ultra-short barreled 5.56x45mm NATO", because there are firearms that have shorter than 14.5" that fire NATO rounds (e.g. 10" and 11.5" barrels), but these also have flash issues. 14.5" is generally considered the absolute minimum barrel length to fire the NATO round without flash. I think the author of the post is making the point that Colt's MARS cartridge was producing similar ballistics as a 5.56x45 mm. when they were both fired out of a 11" barrel, but has reduced flash and noise because of smaller amount of propellant.

I'm guessing the MSMC is being pushed as an MP5 replacement, not an INSAS carbine replacement.
Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Sagar G »

ArmenT wrote:Actually, the weapon that DRDO presented as the carbine version (the one that failed the test) has a 14.5" barrel, same length as the M4A1 -- specs are available on OFB's website.
I checked the OFB site but couldn't locate the gun you are talking of. What I found is Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle (Barrel lt.- 333 mm), this fires the standard NATO round. The other one is AMOGH carbine (Barrel lt.- 330 mm) this fires the same MSMC round. Can you please point me out the weapon you are talking about.

Have heard of it but never saw any pic of "INSAS carbine" as well.
Locked