Small Arms Thread

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Mar 2016 17:14

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=137795

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
11-March-2016 16:41 IST
Insas Rifle

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in association with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), User & Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA) has undertaken development of a single barrel Rifle of 5.56 x 45 Calibre.

The salient features of Rifle are:

Mass : <4 Kg

Firing Mode : Single shot & Automatic

Magazine Capacity : 20 rounds

Range : 450m max.

Butt : Foldable.

Provision to mount international optical sights, Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL), Fore Grip etc. Following are the list of trials conducted on 5.56 mm Assault:

• Night firing carried out;

• Reliability Test, Dispersion Test & Accuracy Test have been carried out;

• User Assisted evaluation of 5.56mm Assault rifle 5.56mm Mk 1C for zeroing, accuracy & reliability.

The Rifle 5.56mm Mk 1C is superior to INSAS in terms of weight, reliability, compactness, and aesthetics and has a provision for mounting of accessories like Reflex sights / optical sights, etc. OFB can manufacture such rifles at the rate of 1,00,000 nos. per annum.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Rahul Shewale and others in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ

It appears that Excalibur/MIR has been give the designation of INSAS 1C

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 14 Mar 2016 17:50

May be a dumb question, but why do we insist on using 20-round mags for our standard ARs? I can understand the weight issues for the 7.62x51 FAL, but why on the 5.56 INSAS and now the Excalibur?

We use AKs and Tavors with 30-round mags, so why 2 round for INSAS? Is there a logic to this or...?

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Mar 2016 21:03

paanwala alert:
The gas regulator problem of insas is still not resolved. So much so that MIR (excalibur mk-1) which is going to replace insas in short term won't even have the burst mode. MCIWS is in design phase and at least half a decade away. Even that does not have burst mode at this point.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Mar 2016 22:17

Is burst mode even a requirement anymore?

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Mar 2016 23:26

I thought the 3 shot burst mode is the bread n butter for an AR or carbine used by regular infantry. Since when it became obsolete and why?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2016 07:39

How many armies in the world insist on a burst mode and why all this hoopla about some panwallah nonsense?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 16 Mar 2016 10:48

How many armies in the world insist on a burst mode and why all this hoopla about some panwallah nonsense?

The 3 Round Burst mode is pretty common I think. It was a key learning out of Vietnam that the Americans passed down to the rest of their Allies over the years.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2016 11:02

^Thats what they thought. Kind of like the brilliance of giving up guns on fighters back during Vietnam. Now they have gone back to fully automatic, and guess why - actual combat experience rather than fanciful theories.

Quoting wikipedia:

Conversion of M4s to the M4A1 began in 2014, the start of all U.S. Army forces being equipped with the automatic variant.[34] Though in service with special forces, combat in Afghanistan showed the need for providing automatic suppression fires during fire and movement for regular soldiers.

The burst is an option on many rifles, but its no longer the "preferred" option.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 16 Mar 2016 12:02

^^ You though wrong. From all open source info, the burst mode remains the preferred option all over the world for infantry including the users of AK series.

Some Nato forces and insas omitted the auto option initially which is making a come back for anti insurgency work but burst mode is not going away. Not even your own link shows the removal of burst mode.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 16 Mar 2016 13:05

@Arun. The 3 Burst mode was brought in to increase Accuracy and reduce wastage of Ammo. During the GWOT the inhibitions towards ammo wastage were reduced/removed which allowed for proliferation of Full Auto Small Arms.

Can India afford the same SOPs?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2016 13:44

Picklu wrote:^^ You though wrong. From all open source info, the burst mode remains the preferred option all over the world for infantry including the users of AK series.

Some Nato forces and insas omitted the auto option initially which is making a come back for anti insurgency work but burst mode is not going away. Not even your own link shows the removal of burst mode.

Here you go, its from the same link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

In September 2010, the Army announced it would buy 12,000 M4A1s from Colt Firearms by the end of 2010, and would order 25,000 more M4A1s by early 2011. The service branch planned to buy 12,000 M4A1 conversion kits in early 2011. In late 2011 the Army bought 65,000 more conversion kits. From there the Army had to decide if it would upgrade all of its M4s

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2016 13:49

rkhanna wrote:@Arun. The 3 Burst mode was brought in to increase Accuracy and reduce wastage of Ammo. During the GWOT the inhibitions towards ammo wastage were reduced/removed which allowed for proliferation of Full Auto Small Arms.

Can India afford the same SOPs?

This is the age of hybrid war. In this era, do we dare retain the same attitudes that existed during the Cold war?

Wars are going to be either short and sharp (between nation states) or a long insurgency (proxy-war). Is this the war for these burst weapons. Is this why armies are slowly moving away to higher calibers and more volume of fire?

Theories about more ammo and conservation of ammo is not going to save anyone from a drugged up jihadi or a blitzkrieg assaults of the PLA.

Anyway, I am no expert. I just put out my views and my observations, thats all. I would certainly like to know if anyone agrees with me, since the predominant dogma is opposite to my views (i.e. on BRF).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2016 17:44

I agree with you that full auto is better provided we can manage ammo resupply.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Mar 2016 19:26

Accuracy and Ammo are the most important aspects of a regular engagement

Typically such engagements happen at distance of over 50 mtrs and you cannot be sure of the duration of the engagement

In such cases full auto fire is pretty inefficient if coming from assault and battle rifles due to recoil (a cm of recoil at the barrel will result in a spread of several cms) and barrel heating issues.

Another significant issue is the weight the soldier has to carry (ammunition is just one thing he has to lug around).

No properly trained and disciplined soldier would like to go full auto all the time unless he has a mule lugging his ammo and equipment

And another seemingly trivial issue now (but important till some years back) was that a burst mode also gave the soldier a sort of round counter in his head. He could mentally guesstimate the rounds he had left. Transparent or slit/window type magazines were brought about to partly address this issue.

Anyways the role of providing high volume suppressive fire is considered to be best left to the Squad Automatic Rifles, the LMGs et all.. and even those guys are trained to fire in bursts unless absolutely necessary (such as defending a fixed position against a charge, bunker clearance etc)

Of course there are armies / units which train and use Assault rifles which have only semi auto or full auto mode but the training imparted is such that the operators (at least the elite) are capable of firing 3 or 2 round bursts even with the setting is on full auto.

Just my 2p worth

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 16 Mar 2016 19:29

^^^^
And that is why the US went to burst mode in the first place.... the ammo resupply question. In Vietnam, too many soldiers ended up emptying magazines into trees and bushes in full automatic mode without hitting anyone, and they ran out of ammunition in combat. The decision to remove the auto mode option and go to burst mode was also made based on actual combat experience, unlike what some of you are implying. Of course, now the US Army (but not Marines!) are trying to put back an automatic mode option based on Afghanistan experience. Times change, tactics change.

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, the INSAS is supplied with 3 mags of 20 rounds each, whereas the standard load for an US infantryman is 7 mags of 30 rounds each. Food for thought.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2016 21:11

Its not a question of times change, tactics IMO, but pure and simple, if you can't manage the logistics, don't force a suboptimal situation on the pointy end. Its like saying, hey guys we can't supply enough tank rounds, so first empty your MG and then and only then use your main gun.

The answer to spray away is more training, not forcing a burst mode which may not be sufficient to provide sustained cover fire.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Mar 2016 23:47

Americans also innovated and brought to the world 5.56mm concept.

Like that went well

AFAIK burst was not a requirement on multi-cal rifle tender ... which indicates IA's preference. Happy to be corrected.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Mar 2016 02:53

Indian Army believes and trains to the following maxim 'Ek goli ek dushman'. The army uses ammunition more frugally than the western nations.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 17 Mar 2016 07:38

+1

Our nice SDRE way of saying 'One shot, one kill. No luck, all Skill'

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 17 Mar 2016 10:16

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Indian Army believes and trains to the following maxim 'Ek goli ek dushman'. The army uses ammunition more frugally than the western nations.

If only the enemy (particularly the jihadi type) fought back the same way. Perhaps we should train our soldiers to stoically aim and fire as single round to effect while being peppered with a hail of automatic fire. Makes for a real romantic image, quite unlike the "fighting for ones life" image I had of people in firefights. Maybe I just have low standards.

Nice sounding slogan though.

Makes sense when if you are a sniper.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Mar 2016 11:48

Arun Menon wrote:If only the enemy (particularly the jihadi type) fought back the same way. Perhaps we should train our soldiers to stoically aim and fire as single round to effect while being peppered with a hail of automatic fire. Makes for a real romantic image, quite unlike the "fighting for ones life" image I had of people in firefights. Maybe I just have low standards.

The jehadis show incredible fire discipline, whether Mumbai or Pathankot. Their ammunition lasted days, even after executing civilians, and excess ammunition was found after they were killed. They never fire unless target was well within range.

Their ambush of Hemant Karkhare was well executed. Kasab's partner did not fire until the police Qualis was well in range, and every occupant was hit.

Ever wonder why Maoists don't run out of ammunition? Fire discipline.

We picked up a fascination for automatic fire in Sri Lanka, where the LTTE cadres were incredibly difficult to locate in the foliage, and spraying was thought to be a solution in desperation.

Suppression fire has incredibly poor hit rates. And the jehadis often hit our soldiers when they're on the move, indicating their confidence under automatic fire. In jihadi training videos, instructors fire next to their faces to build their confidence.

So yes, soldiers need to very stoically stay calm and focused under fire. Otherwise they commit suicide by emptying their ammunition. Or kill their buddies trying to resupply them.

Just locating where fire is coming from is a painstaking exercise.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 17 Mar 2016 12:27

^Nothing against the above. Agree 100%.

What I do not agree with is handicapping the soldier on the field because some staff officer decided he cant trust the guy fighting to keep his cool in battle.

Train him better, but don't snatch his options away. Suppressive fire is one of the most common sorts of activity in a firefight. To hamper that with bean counting is just sad.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Mar 2016 20:09

Cross-posting -

Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

Usman Ansari, Defense News

ISLAMABAD — Trials are underway to select a new firearm for the Pakistan army to replace its G3 battle rifle and Chinese Type-56 AK-47 clones, which will also include upgrading facilities at the state-owned Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF).

Modernization efforts of the POF facilities are aimed at enhancing export success in what is a core export defense industry for Pakistan.

The news came during a Tuesday visit to a POF facility at Wah by head of the Army Gen. Raheel Sharif, who according to a press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media branch, was making his second trip “to see the progress of envisaged modernization and capacity enhancement of POF.”

During the visit, Sharif inaugurated a new ammunition production plant, which is part of an expansion plan. POF chief Lt. Gen. Omar Mahmood Hayat briefed Sharif, who thanked the factory's support in providing arms and ammunition for the ongoing counter terrorist operations.

Sharif also “emphasized the need for further technological upgradation to optimize the output” to ensure self reliance in arms-and-ammunition needs for the civilian and military security services.

He pushed for more efforts to secure new markets for POF products.

However, the presence of a series of foreign rifles at POF seen during the Sharif's visit drew attention to a little publicized competition to find a new standard rifle for the military.

From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21.

There has been a longstanding requirement for a new service rifle and approximately 10 years ago the army expressed requirement for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

Instead, the military acquired large numbers of the Chinese Type-56 clone of the AK-47. It also modified the G3 to produce the G3S, which was a carbine/para variant of the battle rifle, and the G3M, which has a series of rail attachments to fit a range of grips, sighting devices, and under-barrel grenade launcher.

When asked about the new rifles, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence Production confirmed trials were underway for a new service rifle.

“Pakistan army wants to induct new rifles. Trials are going on for the rifles. But nothing has been finalized yet.”

The spokesperson also highlighted that the new ammunition plant was aimed at enhancing existing production capacity, and that “Up-gradation remaining within [POF’s] core area may be carried [out] depending upon technological development in future.”

POF was also open to entering into joint ventures with foreign companies.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Mar 2016 20:13

The SCAR and ARX-200 (a battle rifle) are obvious out for budgetary reasons. But the AK-103 (based on the AK-74M) is an intriguing possibility.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Mar 2016 20:34

Arun Menon wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Indian Army believes and trains to the following maxim 'Ek goli ek dushman'. The army uses ammunition more frugally than the western nations.
If only the enemy (particularly the jihadi type) fought back the same way. Perhaps we should train our soldiers to stoically aim and fire as single round to effect while being peppered with a hail of automatic fire. Makes for a real romantic image, quite unlike the "fighting for ones life" image I had of people in firefights. Maybe I just have low standards.

Nice sounding slogan though.

Makes sense when if you are a sniper.

Arun that is a silly comment. It is not a slogan. It is written into our DNA. This doesnt mean you fire single shots when faced with auto fire. It means you have confidence in your weapon and your self, you aim true and try to use ammo effectively. And staying calm under fire is the most baisc quality of a soldier and drilled into him from the start. Thats why we do battle innoculation, train them to know their wepaon intimately and do a lot of ragda before they ever fire their first shot in training. Then in the Corps Battle School all of this is reinforced. All our officers and troops are trained like this and it works for us precisely in these CI Ops that you talk about. Do you know how much ammunition a person can carry and how much ammo is used when you fire in auto mode. If you keep your finger on the trigger you will run out of ammo very soon. Fire support is done by MGs, RLs and GLs. I would never tolerate my troops loosing fire discipline under fire because we would die when ammo runs out. More importantly the militant would get away. Firepower is crucial and I keep harping on that but that is by belt fed LMGs (which we don't have), RLs and GLs. Even then ammo is finite !!! And it has a weight. You cant carry infinite ammo. That is why during Kargil troops and officers often elected to carry more ammunition instead of food. Also having better sights and having NVGs will play a big role in helping to locate enemy, fire and direct fire effectively.

T Sarkar sir, in the valley there was a time when fire discipline of the militants was not uniformly good. There was a saying in the valley in the late 90s ' if the jihadis were half as well trained and 1/4th as motivated as the LTTE we would have lost the valley'. The quality of the jihadi ebbs and flows depending upon his training and where he is from.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Mar 2016 21:01

Karan M wrote:Its not a question of times change, tactics IMO, but pure and simple, if you can't manage the logistics, don't force a suboptimal situation on the pointy end. Its like saying, hey guys we can't supply enough tank rounds, so first empty your MG and then and only then use your main gun.

The answer to spray away is more training, not forcing a burst mode which may not be sufficient to provide sustained cover fire.

Karan, our training is fine. It works well. This burst vs auto fire is a tricky one. Ideally I would like a burst + auto to cater for all situations but if that cannot be done then an full auto with a low rate of fire and high reliability is fine. You can train troops to fire burst in auto mode if the rifle is reliable. We used to train like that on the old 9mm carbines. But you must have atleast a 30 round magazine. And good night sights and NVGs. Also a good belt fed LMG would be very welcome to give good fire support.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 22:05

I think these are two separate issues

Issue 1: IA is better of with/ without burst mode on the SLR
Issue 2: Can the MCIWS accommodate burst mode

One is a battle challenge and the other is a technical challenge. Should Issue 2 dictate Issue 1? Again JMT.

Added later: Issue 2 is at 'pamwalla' alert level.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 17 Mar 2016 22:21

deejay wrote:I think these are two separate issues

Issue 1: IA is better of with/ without burst mode on the SLR
Issue 2: Can the MCIWS accommodate burst mode

One is a battle challenge and the other is a technical challenge. Should Issue 2 dictate Issue 1? Again JMT.

Added later: Issue 2 is at 'pamwalla' alert level.

Notice the bolded part below, while the alert is off course from the chaiwala of the musiji ki beti ka panwala. As per the alert, it is a materials issue and could not be addressed reliablly for all the weather and terrains of deployment; the recipient of the alert is off course 'unpad ganwar' in all gun related matter

Thakur_B wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=137795
Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
11-March-2016 16:41 IST
Insas Rifle

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in association with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), User & Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA) has undertaken development of a single barrel Rifle of 5.56 x 45 Calibre.

The salient features of Rifle are:

Mass : <4 Kg

Firing Mode : Single shot & Automatic

Magazine Capacity : 20 rounds

Range : 450m max.

Butt : Foldable.

Provision to mount international optical sights, Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL), Fore Grip etc. Following are the list of trials conducted on 5.56 mm Assault:

• Night firing carried out;

• Reliability Test, Dispersion Test & Accuracy Test have been carried out;

• User Assisted evaluation of 5.56mm Assault rifle 5.56mm Mk 1C for zeroing, accuracy & reliability.

The Rifle 5.56mm Mk 1C is superior to INSAS in terms of weight, reliability, compactness, and aesthetics and has a provision for mounting of accessories like Reflex sights / optical sights, etc. OFB can manufacture such rifles at the rate of 1,00,000 nos. per annum.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Rahul Shewale and others in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ
It appears that Excalibur/MIR has been give the designation of INSAS 1C

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Mar 2016 22:34

^^^ Thanks for pointing out Picklu da. I was trying to make sense of last 01 page of discussions. The issue had shifted from what MCIWS had / would have / could have to instead what IA should do.

I also humbly agree that the Panwala alert has a lot of Dum in it.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 18 Mar 2016 10:49

Aditya G wrote:Americans also innovated and brought to the world 5.56mm concept.

Like that went well

Well enough that America's NATO allies went for the same ammo and even improved its performance. Not only allies, but also America's enemies switched as well. For instance, the Soviet Union went for the even smaller 5.45x39 mm. cartridges since 1979. As did the Chinese since about 1997 with their 5.8x42 mm. concept.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Mar 2016 12:08

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ideally I would like a burst + auto to cater for all situations but if that cannot be done then an full auto with a low rate of fire and high reliability is fine. You can train troops to fire burst in auto mode if the rifle is reliable.

This is all that I am saying. Train them to shoot in short bursts when required and give them the burst option is possible, but a burst and semi-automatic only weapon is blatant mistrust (or mistraining) of the soldier.

Yes, it eats up ammo to go full-auto, but that should be the decision of the man in the fire-fight, not some higher up staffer paying with theories and statistics.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Mar 2016 12:35

Akshay, you were correct in your observation of militancy in the valley in the 90's.

However, those chosen for spectacular missions, like Mumbai attackers, or Jammu, were well trained, motivated and showed discipline over many days.

I am told that present Pakistani strategy is infiltrating lesser number of militants, but training them well.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Apr 2016 12:03

Extreme Right, modernised INSAS 1C/Excalibur with quad rails, shorter hand grip and 30 rd magazine displayed as standard fit.

Corner shot system by ARDE.

More about the sniper rifle.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Apr 2016 10:50

^^^^
Just wondering why that Ishapore sniper rifle has a wooden stock (with decorative cross-hatching even!) instead of a fiberglass one. Usually, most military weapons use fiberglass. Or is that stock put there for display purposes only?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Apr 2016 13:46

deejay wrote: The issue had shifted from what MCIWS had / would have / could have to instead what IA should do.

What would anyone from the armed forces know about guns? Inquiring minds would like to know. I once held a gun at an exhibition a few years ago and I can tell you a thing or two.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 Apr 2016 17:37

As development of Excalibur and MCIWS was closing the window of imports. The first shots in changing the goalposts to 7.62x51 caliber from 5.56x45 caliber are being fired. The natural thing would have been for the army to ask DRDO/OFB to develop 7.62x51 version of Excalibur and MCIWS but then what will happen to import pimps. For your perusal:-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 918370.cms

Guess after ARX-160 got its ass kicked in trials err failed somebody will pimp ARX-200 or HK-417 etc

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 May 2016 05:51

MSMC/JVPC/Milaap, INSAS and MCIWS/AAR with folding stock.

MP holding MSMC/JVPC/Milaap

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 May 2016 14:07

Something I noticed later, the MCMC/JVPC/Milaap had a new perforated hand guard to dissipate heat over the gas system.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 23 May 2016 15:59

MSMC looks pretty bad ass when kitted out with the sight, which sight is that, its not a Mepro MOR

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 May 2016 19:30

So what happened to Excalibur? Wasn't the Army going to decide by end of January if it would be inducted or not?